Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Jonny Hotnuts on May 28, 2012, 11:11:27 PM
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I want to use a separate battery in my car to keep my 3 water pumps and data logging running even if the main disconnect is shut off. No other systems ran off this battery.....
I can put a fuse on this battery.
I know its likely a loosing battle but this would be really helpful to me if someone would give this a nod.
~JH
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I would think that if you could easily prove that they are 2 independant systems and the risk of electrical fire in that system could be controlled......
Frank
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Frank, thats what I was hoping.
I could even use 10 gauge wire and 35 amp fusing!
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Johnny, hopefully someone with knowledge of "the intent of the rule" will pipe up with positive angularity to the situation.
Frank.
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The description "MAIN DISCONNECT" is so that there is only one, very obvious electrical shutoff. This for your safety and the safety of the emergency crew when your accident happens.
The convenience that leaving the data logger and water pumps running is out weighed by safety concerns.
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Would running a relay help? You could tie in a relay so that the pumps and such would be shut down with the "Main Disconnect", but still be independent of the engine electrical system.
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The answer to the question is No.
The reason is as Dean said, when the safety crews show up to help you in a mishap they will turn off the master power switch. If they hear pumps running afterwards who's to say it's not a fuel pump? They want EVERYTHING off.
At that point I don't think you'll care about coolant flow through your engine...... :-o
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I am officially withdrawing this question. Dyno is right for other reasons as well.
~JH
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The answer to the question is No.
The reason is as Dean said, when the safety crews show up to help you in a mishap they will turn off the master power switch. If they hear pumps running afterwards who's to say it's not a fuel pump? They want EVERYTHING off.
At that point I don't think you'll care about coolant flow through your engine...... :-o
Points well made gentelmen, safety will always out weigh conveniece.
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But, if you use the push-pull type of shut off you could gang two of them.
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I'm a little baffled by this whole conversation. Am I the only one who runs main and accessory switches in the driver area and only use the clearly marked main battery disconnect on the front or rear of the vehicle between runs or in case of an accident?
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The confusion comes from believing that the mandated battery disconnect is to shut the engine off after an accident. This is not true, the purpose is for the emergency crew to be able to render the vehicle electricly inert so that their susequent efforts don't cause sparks.
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I think I see where thundersalt is going with this. Setup the main master switch such that it controls EVERYTHING. it's a master, emergency kill everything switch and should be used that way. After that switch split the power to a secondary set of switches, main for what is normally considered everything plus a second leg for the list Hotnuts specified.
-The MASTER switch would normally be left on and would not be used for normal operation of the car. It's there to meet the rule and if, heaven forbid, the emergency crew ever needs it.
-The secondary switches would be used for normal operation of the car giving Hotnuts the control he wants.
Thanks
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I think I see where thundersalt is going with this. Setup the main master switch such that it controls EVERYTHING. it's a master, emergency kill everything switch and should be used that way. After that switch split the power to a secondary set of switches, main for what is normally considered everything plus a second leg for the list Hotnuts specified.
-The MASTER switch would normally be left on and would not be used for normal operation of the car. It's there to meet the rule and if, heaven forbid, the emergency crew ever needs it.
-The secondary switches would be used for normal operation of the car giving Hotnuts the control he wants.
Thanks
Thanks for clearifying. My wife says I never explain myself well, I guess she's right :cheers:
PS. use relays for all accessories so your cockpit switches don't have to carry a lot of amp load.
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Something for clarification, no doubt.
From other forms of racing, the master switch is to remove the battery(isolate) from the rest of the system AND kill the motor. magneto guys love this.
However, I have in the past done almost exactly what JHN wants to do by either supplying a small battery for the data recorder seperate or using a small .3 amp fused circuit to the DR. If a small fuse is used and placed as close to the master switch or on it the argument could be made that it poses no threat.
I am not in agreement with the rules about having the switch mounted at the extreme end of the vehicle, if the battery is in the center then the length of wire is vulnerable to the switch. Should this wire become damaged in the incident, you have no way of isolating the battery from the damage. This is a very real concern because the wire is probably of enough size to carry a decent amp load to the starter and potentionally cause enough heat to cause burning or start something else burning.
The DR situation is easy, if need be add additional battery, NiCad from RC car works very well and doesn't need charging but once a weekend. As for the coolant pumps, my opinion is mechanical drive from motor, motor stops so does the water, except for leaks.
John
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In both of our cars, we run electric pumps that continue to circulate water after the engine is shut off after a "normal" run- thus eliminating (or vastly lessening, anyway) the inevitable temperature rise of most, if not all, water cooled engines after the engine is shut down.
We also run data recorders....and we do NOT kill the power to the data recorders at the end of a normal run. BTW, ALL of our engine power is fused and relay controlled - with another separate relay and fuse for the water pumps.
The emergency shutoff switch WILL kill everything and I believe it WILL result in the loss of ALL of the data in the data recorder (although the data IS being written to a SDHC card - as used in a camera, so i am not really sure if the data would be lost or not)..... BUT - It would only be shut off in an emergency - correct?!
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Something for clarification, no doubt.
From other forms of racing, the master switch is to remove the battery(isolate) from the rest of the system AND kill the motor. magneto guys love this.
However, I have in the past done almost exactly what JHN wants to do by either supplying a small battery for the data recorder seperate or using a small .3 amp fused circuit to the DR. If a small fuse is used and placed as close to the master switch or on it the argument could be made that it poses no threat.
I am not in agreement with the rules about having the switch mounted at the extreme end of the vehicle, if the battery is in the center then the length of wire is vulnerable to the switch. Should this wire become damaged in the incident, you have no way of isolating the battery from the damage. This is a very real concern because the wire is probably of enough size to carry a decent amp load to the starter and potentionally cause enough heat to cause burning or start something else burning.
The DR situation is easy, if need be add additional battery, NiCad from RC car works very well and doesn't need charging but once a weekend. As for the coolant pumps, my opinion is mechanical drive from motor, motor stops so does the water, except for leaks.
John
Here is an interesting point about this switch - and it is probably a topic that deserves its own forum.... I did NOT find anywhere in the relevant rules that the switch itself must be mounted at the rear of the car. I have a SIX FOOT LONG LINKAGE from my switch to the rear of the car as I too firmly believe that I DID NOT AND DO NOT WANT a whole bunch of extra wire to the rear of the car and then back towards the middle of the car - as in 12' OR MORE.... PULLING the rod out toward the rear shuts off the switch .... the rod is on tension while being pulled - therefore it CANNOT DEFLECT.... (an issue that was brought up by an inspector - "the rod could bend" - my answer -"ONLY if the emergency crew tried to turn the power back on and it is NOT there for that reason - the clause says DISconnect - NOT - REconnect)).... hmmmm
.... and I too am an inspector.....
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When the emergency crew reaches to shut off the main disconnect they should be touching the main disconnect.
The linkage could be damaged in a crash and not work. If it ain't there it can't break. I'm not buying your logic that it would work in all circumstances.
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re-read the section on battery disconnect switches in rule book.
rod or cable operators are specifically mentioned.
IMO. if the car is damaged enough to damage the switch operator, it would damage the wire and then you really have a problem, until the battery dies.
J
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The switches at the "extreme ends" of the vehicle work well in case of an incident. Very few vehicles end up on their "extreme end".
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The confusion comes from believing that the mandated battery disconnect is to shut the engine off after an accident. This is not true, the purpose is for the emergency crew to be able to render the vehicle electricly inert so that their susequent efforts don't cause sparks.
Honestly, the way the rule is written I don't see how anyone could really deduce what exactly the desired effect of having the switch is. Books says you must have a main battery disconnect switch.... that's it. Following some basic reasoning I would think that by completely disconnecting the battery from the vehicles power system that you would in fact be able to shut off an engine or shut off a still running electric fuel pump. But the book doesn't say that this is what the switch must do. It's also safe to presume that its purpose is to kill all power on the vehicle thereby reducing the chances of sparks and/or fires. Or maybe the switch is supposed to do all those thing.
I will say this, as a second responder to the Keith Copeland accident in his Bocar, we never found his main kill switch as at the time it wasn't mandated to be at either extreme end of the car. When I got there, the car was still upside down (so we couldn't see the sticker that tells you the location of the switch is) with Keith in it unconscious and the fuel pump running full steam dumping out fuel all over the ground. At this point there was only a small fire but once we flipped the car over all the fuel that was pouring onto the ground was now dumping out onto the hot engine and the small fire got very big very quickly. I honestly thought Keith was either going to die in the fire or die from lack of oxygen from all the fire extinguising chemical that was being used to try and put the fire out. Long story short, the fire finally got put out (once all the fuel burned off) and they cut the cage off and got Keith out. He's one lucky SOB if you ask me.
So, there's a perfect example of why you need the switch and why it should be in a standardized location. It's also a good example as to why you need an interia switch.
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Nathan, while you are but a mere pup in the inspection of LSR vehicles, it is a pleasure to have someone who has not only a fresh approach but the balls to question the status quo.
I say this not as a blank statement to our governing body, rules or rule makers, but other than Dan Warner (whom I don't believe that I have ever met personally) you are to the best of my knowledge the only other SCTA or BNI inspector or official to openly post on this site.
I salute both yourself and Dan for at the very least, giving the rest of us a calm, well thought out response to our questions.
Do I fault the others who don't seem to recognize this sites existence? I understand the problems associated with being a volunteer and responsible for making unpopular decisions, and having to answer many questions by angst filled (for lack of a better phrase) racers, but I also feel that given the fact that we are all in this together, in a ideal World, we could be more open.
Here is to you, Nathan, and to everyone else who makes LSR what it is............Bob
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I saw a comment about loggers not long ago and the use of a capacitor on the logger circuit to maintain enough current for the logger to shut down in the case of an incident, esp so the logger can keep a record of the incident for later review , not much point if it misses the realy important stuff
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When the emergency crew reaches to shut off the main disconnect they should be touching the main disconnect.
The linkage could be damaged in a crash and not work. If it ain't there it can't break. I'm not buying your logic that it would work in all circumstances.
You really don't have to "buy" my logic, Dean..... I guess we could get into a lengthy debate about possible scenarios in any crash .... and keep "one-upping" each other until the cows come home with this one.... but, as far as I am concerned, my car (and numerous others as well) are in compliance with the rules as they are written.
BTW, on our Vega, the switch has ALWAYS been at the right rear of the vehicle - just inboard of the original tail-light..... with about a foot of wire from the battery to the switch...
The lakester was more problematic as the bodywork, behind the rear axle is more of a "tail-cone" type of an extension from the original body....the section is completely self supporting for the last 4 feet of it. We had actually looked at how to affix the switch and "welding cable sized" wires out to the rear of the car and by what method(s) we could effectively disconnect and reconnect it to the body during "body-off" maintenance time on the car. It was my assessment that, in the event of a catastrophe, the switch, mounted out back in the body, would, in all likelihood, be mangled from the body being torn off.... There was, in my opinion, NO "utopian" method for making this work. Personally, I felt that the switch, located as it was originally, about 70" ahead of the rear of the car - on the right side - in the open - plainly marked and visible, was close enough to the rear of the car to be in compliance with the rules - but NOT SO - according to the enforcers of current interpretations of the rules governing these things. Also, in the event of the body being torn off and the rod torn off as well, the switch, which is mounted to a body support that is part of the chassis, will still be there and there will be enough of the original switch lever to grasp for the purpose of turning it to the off position. Now, if that part of the chassis gets destroyed in the hypothetical catastrophe, there is no real telling where exactly that switch will be in that case....
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I am in agreement with both Dean and Dave (fastman), and having read a previous post wonder if there is a backup system available such as those in laptop computers which could or can store electrical energy while not being a grounded to chassis system.
In this day and age it is hard to believe that the technolage is not available and if it isn't, somebody need's to jump on it.
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We have 2 big battery disconect switches on the 222 Camaro, one that the driver can shut off and one at the rear 6'' from battery and mounted on inside rear body work. Had to drill hole in body and tailight for push off rod,which we labled ''push for off.''
Short positive battery cable to switch, long positive cable to other switch.
JL222
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John, If I am reading you correctly, both (while being independent of each other) kill EVERYTHING. If not, I don't see how it meets the rule.
Bob
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Back to more topic related, if the data is of the utmost priority and is to be saved at nearly all costs, if I was looking at what to do or how to leave a small uninterruptable power supply in the system, I guess it would involve the use of a NiCd (or LiIon) battery with some diode circuitry in order to prevent the power from the small battery from being fed back into the main electrical system.... build the setup similar to the "black box" in an airplane.... 3 cordless phone batteries may be enough....
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Dave, in my opinion, thats what we need more of, rather than sniping at each other (and that statement is aimed at absolutely NO ONE), but rather that we all think thru the problem and come together in creating a solution or at least trying our best to better our sport and its sometimes ambiguos rules (thru the fault of NO ONE).
Hat's off and a warm Molson (you are English, correct?) to you...............
Bob :cheers: :cheers:
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Take it easy Bob. Molson is Canadian and best served ice cold, especially on the salt! :-D :-D :cheers:
Pete
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Just 'cuz the "founding fathers" of Canada were all wannabe highbrow brits with grandiose aspirations of becoming demagogic rulers over a domain of the British Empire.... and went to the Queen with hats in hand begging to "Pretty please your Majesty, can we please have a country, huh, huh, huh?" ... instead of revolting and just taking it.... and the Queen acceded to the pleas of the wannabe demagogues.... does not mean we drink our beer like they do over in England....
It reminds me of a scene from the World's Fastest Indian".... "Bert" went into a bar and wanted a cup of tea..... one of the patrons said to the effect, "So, are you English?"
His reply was - "Dear me, NO!..... I'm NOT a POME! (pronounced paw-mee)".... and in Canada, we aren't POMEs either....
We DO as the Americans from the era of the Gold Rush (no doubt) taught us - we drink our beer cold.
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Nathan, while you are but a mere pup in the inspection of LSR vehicles, it is a pleasure to have someone who has not only a fresh approach but the balls to question the status quo.
I say this not as a blank statement to our governing body, rules or rule makers, but other than Dan Warner (whom I don't believe that I have ever met personally) you are to the best of my knowledge the only other SCTA or BNI inspector or official to openly post on this site.
I salute both yourself and Dan for at the very least, giving the rest of us a calm, well thought out response to our questions.
Do I fault the others who don't seem to recognize this sites existence? I understand the problems associated with being a volunteer and responsible for making unpopular decisions, and having to answer many questions by angst filled (for lack of a better phrase) racers, but I also feel that given the fact that we are all in this together, in a ideal World, we could be more open.
Here is to you, Nathan, and to everyone else who makes LSR what it is............Bob
Very kind words; thank you Bob. I guess I'm still a young fellow (31 in July) but I've been doing tech inspection for almost 15 years now (minus the time I was in the Army). I was lucky to be born the son of the gent who was the head tech inspector for many years along with having other involvements with rules and classes. I don't think I ever really had much of a chance to not be involved like I am now which is fine because I love it.
Now, if I can only get you to believe that we don't have a "park those who behave badly on the internet in the sun" shit-list for inspection at Speed Week, I'll know I've gotten you to turn over a new leaf! :-D :wink:
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Fastman, several years back at the Portland Swap meet I was introducing a Kiwi friend and a couple of his fellow countrymen to a few of my friends and I accidently stated that they were from (God Forbid) Austalia.
That, sportsfans, was the starting point of a verbal tongue lashing that is still reverberating between my ears.
Amongst other things, I learned that "Australia is nothing more than a F*cking English Penal Colony", along with many new phrases to use when in a drunken rage.
Luckily before they put me in a pot of boiling sewage, I mentioned that I was preparing to grill fifty bratwurst and had a ample supply (or so I thought) of cold beer.
Within mere minutes all was forgiven, fifty brats and ALL the beer soon were also History, and they all stood up farting and belching and continued on their quest to conqure North America or what ever in the hell they were sent here for...................
Bob :-D :-o :cheers:
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nathan,Glen,fastman and any other volunteer................Going back to fastmans lakester shutoff location I ask "Where SHOULD I mount my switch on the lakester?" It will have a tailcone as fastman mentioned, maybe real close to the rear shape of the Nebulous cars. Other than a chute tube there really won't be a rear surface of the car.
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As a tech inspector I just want to see that it works.
On my car (modified roadster) the batt. shut off is within drivers reach in the cockpit. When the rule required front or rear access I added a pull cable to the shut off.
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John, If I am reading you correctly, both (while being independent of each other) kill EVERYTHING. If not, I don't see how it meets the rule.
Bob
Bob...Yes..Kills everything. Picture a battery cable with 2 switches along its length. Each one will cut the power.
We could have rigged a Morse cable from driver side switch to rear,but figured a way to mount rear switch.
In case of a bad rollover type wreck, or an electrical fire or smoke, the driver could shut power off with out waiting.
JL222
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Mike Waters fought this rule for years. His roadster now has a push off at the rear. I like "push=Off", when the car bounces on the tail the main electric is shut off too.
DW
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Bob Drury, Thank you for your comments about Nathan and Dan.
They are not thanked often enough.
Gary
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nathan,Glen,fastman and any other volunteer................Going back to fastmans lakester shutoff location I ask "Where SHOULD I mount my switch on the lakester?" It will have a tailcone as fastman mentioned, maybe real close to the rear shape of the Nebulous cars. Other than a chute tube there really won't be a rear surface of the car.
Tman,
What you have to realize - in this life, there are many people who will always have "a better way" .... whether it is better or not... I lived under the shadow of a person pretty well ALL of my life who always had a better way!..... To his credit though, he being a machinist and owner of a well equipped machine shop, he often had far better tools etc with which to make many things.... but better tools does not make a better idea - only a more polished appearance to the same idea....
With that in mind, what you are going to have on your car is several things that the opinionaters will disagree with.... the use of a cable was also thought of in our application and the only reasons I did not end up with a cable was due to a rod being on hand, no cable being on hand, running out of time, having a clear shot through the relevant body members to install a pull/push rod.... the cable would have worked fine as well for an emergeny shut off and, in the event of a catastrophe, if the body panel was torn away, the cable would be torn away too, which would result in turning off the main disconnect. It just would not have worked so well for turning it back on unless a push/pull cable was used. But for me, unless it is mandated that I must change it, I feel fine with what I have.
Tman, good luck on your build and I hope to see you at the salt.
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John, I like your dual power switch idea. I think most racers don't spend enough time thinking about the safety "what if's" and if you are looking up at the salt with for example a electric fuel pump whizzing in the background, it would have to be a heart stopping lesson in reality. Bob
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John, I like your dual power switch idea. I think most racers don't spend enough time thinking about the safety "what if's" and if you are looking up at the salt with for example a electric fuel pump whizzing in the background, it would have to be a heart stopping lesson in reality. Bob
Wasn't thinkin about having 2 swiches just added the rear one to comply with rules, but glad to have both.
JL222
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The 444 Vesco streamliner has two, 1 in cockpit and 1 in the nose.
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nathan,Glen,fastman and any other volunteer................Going back to fastmans lakester shutoff location I ask "Where SHOULD I mount my switch on the lakester?" It will have a tailcone as fastman mentioned, maybe real close to the rear shape of the Nebulous cars. Other than a chute tube there really won't be a rear surface of the car.
Pull cable mounted directly off the back of the car is fine Trent.
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nathan,Glen,fastman and any other volunteer................Going back to fastmans lakester shutoff location I ask "Where SHOULD I mount my switch on the lakester?" It will have a tailcone as fastman mentioned, maybe real close to the rear shape of the Nebulous cars. Other than a chute tube there really won't be a rear surface of the car.
Pull cable mounted directly off the back of the car is fine Trent.
Had not even thought about a cable until you guys mentioned it in this thread. We have a Flaming River PULL rod on the 416 truck. I was thinking of the standard shutoff TWIST switch at the rear. This thread (thanks Jonny) has me thinking now about a pull something at the rear AND a driver accessible seconday/primary? switch in the cockpit in case I need to kill juice before any of you safety guys get to me!
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I hate to admit this, but on the current car build.
I bought the wrong fire release cable and had to replace with longer unit.
I used the shorter one on the main switch mounted in the drivers compartment.
Yeah, I designed it that way. Totally, from the start.
John
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I think that John's idea (whether accidental or a brain storm) needs to be looked at by the rules commitee and is a example of a new rule that doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand or implement in their current race cars.
John, thank's a bunch, I will have one installed for Speedweek.
See, not all of the racers idea's are negative or railing against authority........................
:-D :cheers: :cheers: Bob
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Good thread at the right time for me, I am helping on a lakester build and we are currently working on the wiring.
The main disconnect is inline with the positive lead close to both the battery and main electrical supply relays, fuses, etc. It has a T handle, one end is attached to a cable which runs forward to the cockpit for a "pull off" reachable from the drivers position. Currently the other end of the handle has a rod running to the rear for an external "pull off" mocked up. Reading the thread has made me aware of how vulnerable the rod portion might be in an incident, take time to back up a step, and consider a cable "pull off" to the rear. Longer cable to the rear would also be easier to adapt with should we add longer rear sub structure and body panels in the future for improved aero.
Thanks to everyone for all the input.
Ed
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I think that John's idea (whether accidental or a brain storm) needs to be looked at by the rules commitee and is a example of a new rule that doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand or implement in their current race cars.
John, thank's a bunch, I will have one installed for Speedweek.
See, not all of the racers idea's are negative or railing against authority........................
:-D :cheers: :cheers: Bob
We had done it like this - with 2 inline (in series) switches already back in 1986 on the Vega......