Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: McRat on May 18, 2012, 04:12:02 PM
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Guess I read the rulebook too late. What is safety window film? I have never hear of that. I have adhesive plastic tinted film.
I have found "Security Window Film" at U-Line (industrial supply), but that's only 0.0025" thick (thinner than a human hair), and no thicker than window tint.
Nobody has ever heard of Safety Film after 20 phone calls. Speedway Motors doesn't have it, or know what it is.
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It is frequently sold as a security film for burglary protection or for safety in emergency situations like earthquake, hurricane or bomb blast situations.
I believe the original "brand name" security film was developed by 3M.
Here are some links from a quick google search.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,9895.0.html
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2369.0.html
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Window_Film/Solutions/Markets-Products/Residential/Safety-Security_Window_Films/
http://www.shattersafe.com/
http://solargard.com/US/Commercial/Products_Safety
http://www.diywindowsecurity.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYdVK3BqPfk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_and_security_window_film
Larry
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Thanks!
Well, I guess that U-Line stuff is what they mean. $200, and it's in stock locally.
But, if I want to go 200+ mph someday, it all goes in the trash anyhow.
Decisions, decisions.
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Thanks!
But, if I want to go 200+ mph someday, it all goes in the trash anyhow.
I don't understand this "IF" word you speak of.
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Thanks!
But, if I want to go 200+ mph someday, it all goes in the trash anyhow.
I don't understand this "IF" word you speak of.
Well, we actually exceeded 200 before the 2 mile mark, before we had a ring land failure, if the datalog was correct. Basically, I had my chance and I blew it.
I'm not sure what we are going to do.
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Thanks!
But, if I want to go 200+ mph someday, it all goes in the trash anyhow.
I don't understand this "IF" word you speak of.
Well, we actually exceeded 200 before the 2 mile mark, before we had a ring land failure, if the datalog was correct. Basically, I had my chance and I blew it.
I'm not sure what we are going to do.
Talkin to some off road 4 wheelers and dealers at a display and they had a window film that held the glass together
in crashes. After ruling on Lexon and spending over $1500 and our own install I would have liked to have come across
this flim sooner, as it might have worked in place of Lexon and the retirement of cars and loss of SCTA members in this
bad economy.
Might check with off road suppliers.
Good luck JL222
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It seems that, with Land Speed Racing, things are only several years behind NHRA (and drag racing in general). Rules, regulations, expiry dates etc... Never ending new rules.... More money monre money more money.....
We, in Canada, live under a tax regime where any and all sponsors of racing activities have been put under the microscope by our income tax department.... and usually have any and all racing expense deductions disallowed... it is why you will NEVER see ANY Canadian based/owned/sponsored professional racing teams in ANY type of racing..... The business names on both of our cars are there because the businesses are owned by the many people involved in our team.... I know this part is a bit off the topic but it is integral with peoples decisions to no longer participate in motorsports....
What it now sounds like, though, is that there is a product on the market that may well have been up to the task of containing shards of tempered glass and we have by and large had to replace our glass with lexan or the equivalent - even in the face of evidence that there were certain vehicles that were responsible almost exclusively for window blowout problems - such vehicles being the type that did NOT have full framed side or rear hatch windows.... which I am pretty sure is NOT McRat's truck (or pretty well every other, if not all, truck(s) at the salt) and it is NOT our Chevy Vega or many other coupes/sedans that are presently active...etc...
Although we DID replace our glass in the Vega.... it was NOT a happy choice to do so as we had installed the glass "for the long haul" - so to speak....
One side point touched on above - If you exceed 200 MPH at an event without setting a record and if the record remains at below 200 MPH, you ARE NOT bound by the rules that kick in at 200 MPH just because your vehicle has at tone time exceeded 200 MPH - The 200 MPH plus rules only apply when the existing class record is 200 MPH or over!.... AND - they DO NOT APPLY at the meet at which the record is set to 200 MPH or more - ONLY AT THE NEXT EVENT. We were in this position with the Vega at the W/Fs last year (the event that ended up not taking place) as the lexan issue was at a transitional speed of 250 MPH while the record was/is 245 mph. It was our plan to retire the Vega (and probably the 6142 Lakester as well) after 2011. We had hoped to have bumped the record to well over 250 MPH but.... we never got the chance :-( So, now, for this year it was spend more money - AND THEN mothball the car.
Many of us faced the same dilemma and we feel for you.... I just hope that your grocery stores and auto parts stores etc. have A LOT of half price sales between now and Speedweek so that you all can have the $$$ to get there. Take care and Godbless....
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Carefull Fastman, or you may end up in inspection line hell with me. At least I got my own private lane for inspection................................ Bob
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Carefull Fastman, or you may end up in inspection line hell with me. At least I got my own private lane for inspection................................ Bob
Bob - I am an inspector - we get into inspection line hell quite often as we are supposed to be the leaders in safety innovations etc..... I do NOT always agree with interpretations of rules but I DO enforce them as the current interpretation(s) is(are) and, in the event of a dispute, I get senior people involved to do the arguing.....
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Fastman, sent p.m.
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I wonder why they don't just let you attach .0625" steel sheet on the outside of the body where the windows go? That would be much cheaper and stronger, and still be fireproof.
You can't see out the windows anyhow when in driving position wearing a neck brace, side shield, and window net.
Or another good option is just to remove all windows like demolition derby does. That is probably the best. It's free and easy.
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I wonder why they don't just let you attach .0625" steel sheet on the outside of the body where the windows go? That would be much cheaper and stronger, and still be fireproof.
You can't see out the windows anyhow when in driving position wearing a neck brace, side shield, and window net.
Or another good option is just to remove all windows like demolition derby does. That is probably the best. It's free and easy.
Demolition derby.... YUP!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!! I LUVYA MAN!!!!!!!!! ..... still LOL!!!!!!!
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"I wonder why they don't just let you attach .0625" steel sheet on the outside of the body where the windows go? That would be much cheaper and stronger, and still be fireproof."
Where does it say you can't? I have seen more than a couple of metal solutions.
DW
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"I wonder why they don't just let you attach .0625" steel sheet on the outside of the body where the windows go? That would be much cheaper and stronger, and still be fireproof."
Where does it say you can't? I have seen more than a couple of metal solutions.
DW
Hmmmm...
I thought you could not modify the sheetmetal in Gas Coupe? Wouldn't that be considered streamlining also?
Not that aero is my problem with my rolling barn, but it might add 1/2 a mph before I blow up again ....
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Sheetmetal = glass? Thats some new chemistry.
DW
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Sheetmetal = glass? Thats some new chemistry.
DW
I seem to recall a Star Trek movie ..... transparent aluminum......
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I'd imagine if you added "outside" the body it would be considered streamlining. But I've seen it, essentially in Comp. Coupes, where it's used as back "windows". If in place of glass in the stock location, there's no safety reason not to do it. Easier picking up a sheet of aluminum than glass pieces.
Stan
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Sheetmetal = glass? Thats some new chemistry.
DW
I seem to recall a Star Trek movie ..... transparent aluminum......
Anyone got Scotty's number? Oh wait, he's dead and took the recipe with him ... :(
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I'd imagine if you added "outside" the body it would be considered streamlining. But I've seen it, essentially in Comp. Coupes, where it's used as back "windows". If in place of glass in the stock location, there's no safety reason not to do it. Easier picking up a sheet of aluminum than glass pieces.
Stan
I still need to read through the diesel drags and sledpulling rulebooks to see what is allowed.
Plastic windows might put me in the unlimited class, ie- tube chassis, glass body.
But it is still street legal, registered, and insured, so while metal windows might be SCTA, they probably aren't CHP.
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Ah the woes of a muti-purpose vehicle.
DW
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Ah the woes of a muti-purpose vehicle.
DW
Jack of All Trades, Master of None! :D
Back in 2004, I wanted a Ford Lightning pickup. Then I found they got poor mileage, spit sparkplugs out, low towing capacity, and limited seating. Not a good replacement for my E350 Ford Van.
So I decided to "Make A GM Lightning". I started with 5-seater GMC Sierra 2500HD 4x4 Diesel (6420lb as delivered, 255rwhp at Westec dyno, 16.40 in the 1/4 at LACR, top speed 96mph).
My goal was to run 12 second ET's, tow heavy, seat 5, get 20mpg+ highway, and go faster than 140mph (Lightning's advertised top speed).
My problem is I didn't know when to stop.
We do have another Duramax that fits that bill (Wendy); that is my wife's truck. But Casper got out of hand a long time ago. While street legal, it's not my first choice for a trip to the grocery store anymore. It used to have 3 racing seats with 5-pt harnesses, and I took the kids to school in it, and would do pickup and deliveries for work with it. It can still tow heavy, but seats only 1 now.
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Sheetmetal = glass? Thats some new chemistry.
DW
I seem to recall a Star Trek movie ..... transparent aluminum......
Anyone got Scotty's number? Oh wait, he's dead and took the recipe with him ... :(
Funny you should mention him today....
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/05/22/ashes-star-trek-cotty-ride-private-rocket-into-space/ (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/05/22/ashes-star-trek-cotty-ride-private-rocket-into-space/)
Mike
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I'd be nervous to go in a spacecraft with Scotty.
Every episode he's in, there's an engine malfunction ...
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I'd be nervous to go in a spacecraft with Scotty.
Every episode he's in, there's an engine malfunction ...
"I canna pu' i' up any higher Cap'n - she's Liable ta blow!"
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Hey! here a new thought for satisfying the race cars side windows if their class record is over 200 mph, you don't need to only think about lexan, or solid aluminum windows, why not just use glass? Yes I know you can't use tempered glass, but you can use laminated glass which is legal, just like your front windshied laminated glass is legal. Some old Studebaker cars had laminated glass on the side windows too, of course the purpose is to reduce the glass on our race course, resulting in hours of cleanup, thus stopping our racing! take care, see ya at Speed Week, Dave :cheers:
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Hey! here a new thought for satisfying the race cars side windows if their class record is over 200 mph, you don't need to only think about lexan, or solid aluminum windows, why not just use glass? Yes I know you can't use tempered glass, but you can use laminated glass which is legal, just like your front windshied laminated glass is legal. Some old Studebaker cars had laminated glass on the side windows too, of course the purpose is to reduce the glass on our race course, resulting in hours of cleanup, thus stopping our racing! take care, see ya at Speed Week, Dave :cheers:
But is the side glass on a Studebaker a 3D complex shape? Nope. Software did not exist back then.
You might think a "flat" window on a modern car is flat, or even just curved. But that's not the case.
Look at any late model Chevy pickup. Would you say back window is flat? It's not, but it's just a single axis cubic curve (not an arc).
The side windows are 3 axis NURB surfaces. This means the curves are not necessarily cubic, and nothing is flat in any axis, or is the curve uniform down it's length, nor are the flowlines necessarily perpendicular. Think of a flattened sphere, but non-uniformly flattened.
And a pickup is a simple one. Take a straight-edge out to your family car if it's newer than 20 years old and really start to look at the glass and body. 3D NURB modeling started with aircraft, then cars, way before it was used for movies and games.
This is the reason putting window film or large stickers on today is a beach. And why they don't make plastic windows for complex windows. Tooling is too much $$$.
DOH!!!! Just went out and checked. Even the back window is "flattened sphere", not straight or an arc in any direction.
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Darn,your correct McRat, there goes another idea out the window!! :-)
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I have been on a few window blow outs at Bonneville and even the so called safety glass used in windshields shatters and tears into sections. It also scatters small pieces all over the course. Most clean ups take at least one hour. The glass pieces are very hard to see with the bright sun and salt surface. Do everything you can to prevent window blow outs. A crash is a different problem as the field is usually spread over a long distance.
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Glen, as you may recall I was a fairly vocal opponent of the Window Film Rule when it was proposed and inacted, even though I didn't have a dog in the race (running stock laminated glass in the Classic catagory).
My problem with this specific rule, as with other newer rules is that they have been inacted without a mention of what product or definition meet's the rule or rules as written.
I myself have been left sweltering at or near the starting line while such cleanup's have occured and agree that no one likes such situations, but until the Rules committee realizes that they need to identify which specific products including numerical identification and source will rectify the problem, we will all suffer the consequences.
I have never questioned whether any new rule is for the benifit of the racers, but for the good of the sport, and to make our inspector's lives easier, I feel that We all need to have solutions to the problem before we try to resolve them through rule changes.
With much respect, Bob
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I have been on a few window blow outs at Bonneville and even the so called safety glass used in windshields shatters and tears into sections. It also scatters small pieces all over the course. Most clean ups take at least one hour. The glass pieces are very hard to see with the bright sun and salt surface. Do everything you can to prevent window blow outs. A crash is a different problem as the field is usually spread over a long distance.
Yes, I would hate to try and clean up glass crystals, you guys have a tough enough job as it is. So I do understand the concern, so I will go plastic.
My lexan sheets arrived today. Time to give it a shot. Luckily the windows on a pickup aren't as crazy as most modern stuff.
Could be worse. A Corvette C5 FRC owner would be hosed, no way to make those out of plastic easily: http://youtu.be/rkhUXbRASUk
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A thing that bites about modern car glass. Many front and back windows don't come out willingly. They usually break when removed. The newer glues are pretty good; the windows are not intended to be removable. The "retainer plates" required by SCTA are actually more likely to bust the glass than hold it in place.
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I am getting the feeling that LSR masy not be the venue for you Pat.
DW
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I am getting the feeling that LSR masy not be the venue for you Pat.
DW
That I don't know.
When they outlaw digital fuel injection like NASCAR is when I'll hang it up for sure. A spark might jump from a computer chip and poke someone's eye out ... :evil:
I hate carbs, and always have. Nothing but a PITA ...
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I am getting the feeling that LSR masy not be the venue for you Pat.
DW
That I don't know.
When they outlaw digital fuel injection like NASCAR is when I'll hang it up for sure. A spark might jump from a computer chip and poke someone's eye out ... :evil:
I hate carbs, and always have. Nothing but a PITA ...
Hmmmm.... I know it is pretty difficult to use carbs on diesel engines.... although I also know that, during, WW2, there were people who used diesel fuel in carbureted engines (preheaters etc)
Hate, though?.... aw c'mon man.... although - dislike, I can understand...
Frankly, all that aside, I do wish that I followed through on an earlier "opportunity" to used a turbo'd 2 liter engine with EFI as I would, in all likelihood, be using EFI exclusively now....
PITA?.... I know how the term relates to the bread that my "adopted" Greek family serves in their restaurant (with hummus and tzaziki on the side for dipping...)
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PITA = Pain In The Asteroid.
Stuck floats, stuck WOT, choke closing accidently, stuck slide, balancing 2, 3, or 4 carbs, vapor lock, vacuum leaks, etc, etc.
Gimme a notebook computer and some tables and I'm a bunch happier. Yes, I still have a few things with carbs, but very few.
Digital Fuel Injection is what caused rebirth of the musclecar. Without it, it would still be 1975.
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PITA = Pain In The Asteroid.
Stuck floats, stuck WOT, choke closing accidently, stuck slide, balancing 2, 3, or 4 carbs, vapor lock, vacuum leaks, etc, etc.
Gimme a notebook computer and some tables and I'm a bunch happier. Yes, I still have a few things with carbs, but very few.
Digital Fuel Injection is what caused rebirth of the musclecar. Without it, it would still be 1975.
I don't disagree with you, Pat.... And I have to say that in addition to the rebirth of the musclecar, it was also responsible for the fact that my late 90s Chevy pickup could tow the racecar and trailer as well as a much older Chevy pickup truck could .... and get 5 - 6 mpg better fuel economy while doing it.
Pretty much the only reason that we have stayed with carbs is because it is what we are familiar with.... I presently don't have the interest to learn about computer controlled this, that and the other in my "hobby life" as my head often swirls from having to continually learn computer stuff in my work life.... I do know that an awful lot of what I do have to learn in my work life is industrial process control related and it is really not a lot different than the EFI control technology ... but still.... I just can't get excited about learning it - at least not at this time.
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OK, found no tools that I own can remove the rear side or back windows of the truck. They don't hold modern windows in with Elmer's Glue. It's something black that was designed by Satan himself. It will cost $275 for somebody to come out and remove them, with no guarantee they won't break. They usually do break.
So decision time... Hit all windows with a ball peen hammer and use air chisel to remove edges? Or pay more than the glass is worth not to destroy a perfectly good set of windows? I hate wrecking things out of pure stupidity, even if it's the most cost effective.
If I do the ball peen method, does anyone want to see an experiment on how tough modern glass really is? I could video it and increase the force until it breaks.
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Put a different type of film on each window; video the destruction and resulting messes.
Mike
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OK, found no tools that I own can remove the rear side or back windows of the truck. They don't hold modern windows in with Elmer's Glue. It's something black that was designed by Satan himself. It will cost $275 for somebody to come out and remove them, with no guarantee they won't break. They usually do break.
So decision time... Hit all windows with a ball peen hammer and use air chisel to remove edges? Or pay more than the glass is worth not to destroy a perfectly good set of windows? I hate wrecking things out of pure stupidity, even if it's the most cost effective.
If I do the ball peen method, does anyone want to see an experiment on how tough modern glass really is? I could video it and increase the force until it breaks.
It is called a Fein tool. Use to be hard to find and expensive. http://www.multimaster.info/en_us/ but now Menards, Lowes, Home Depot etc all sell cheap versions. Your windows will come out with ease. What you are cutting is a Urethane.
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Thanks!
Is that a "multi-tool"? that I see on Cable TV? Vibrates a blade back and forth?
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Thanks!
Is that a "multi-tool"? that I see on Cable TV? Vibrates a blade back and forth?
Yes, Fein invented them. Mercedes glue in window tech is where they originated. They use them for cutting casts off arms and legs also.
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Works a lot better than the window seal cutter you can get from eastwood. Harbor Freight sells them as well cheap. and cheap. should do the job though.
Frank
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Thanks, that did it.
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Did you have someone take any video?.... I was thinking about a friend who is also facing this "dilemma" and I figured that 20 seconds of video would show him how it's done.
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I'll see what I can do this weekend for a video.
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Not a super job, but:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCHIF9bCXUs&feature=youtu.be
Now if you watched that, your punishment is to watch my Hamster Wheel for Kids:
http://youtu.be/wguGF8VUSx0
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PS - Site was down, that's why it took so long.
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McR;
Nice video-- thanks. Very instructive, too. I always wondered what those tools did. I thought they rotated and I wondered how a non-round blade would work. The ads and even on the box never explain the motion of the darned thing.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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It just wiggles back and forth about 1/8". Just enough to get a sawing motion. They make knife blades, but all that did was melt it immediately. Needs teeth.
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You are welcome :wink: :-D :cheers:
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Thanks, worked like a charm. :cheers:
If I had to do it over, I'd buy a variable speed unit of higher quality. The HF got it done, but it gets really hot, really fast.
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I did say cheap :-D :cheers:
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McRat,
Where did you get that full opening window net? Phil
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McRat,
Where did you get that full opening window net? Phil
Changed username. Jim Deist and his son-in-law? made it for me while we were at Bonneville. RIP Mr. Deist, and thanks! I don't know if it's a catalog item or not.
Deist is still in business, they might remember the truck, and how it was done. www.deist.com
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McRat,
Where did you get that full opening window net? Phil
Stroud too. They built my door net.