Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Flaircraft on March 29, 2006, 04:18:43 PM
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Hi all,
I am interested in building a 1000cc motorcycle streamliner, and intend on making one that is basically a standard motorcycle with a fully enclosed shell. I would be laying forward to decrease frontal area but otherwise would use a fairly stock motorcycle frame. For a better idea of what I want to do, think Charly Perethian and his "Rifle" high-mileage motorcycle, or Bert Munro's LSR efforts. However, from reading the streamliner rules the SCTA expects the vehicle to be more like a 2-wheeled car than a motorcycle, and the rules are crafted around this configuration. I am confident that I could make my streamliner meet the letter of the rules but do y'all think that the SCTA would allow it to compete?
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By the time you add the roll cage, fluid proof firewall, halon systems and parachutes, it IS a 2 wheeled car. My guess it that you won't be able to build it as a "normal" configuration motorcycle.
Just my 2 cents worth..
Dave
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Dave Cox is right. If a bike is entered as a streamliner you will need all the above and a few other bits. Burt Munro's bike would not be allowed under the current rules. If you are determined to have a sit on bike, as opposed to a cigar type streamliner, the partial streamline rules are quite flexible. And offer a lot of "wiggle" room. As if there is'nt enough "wiggling" done on this site.
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I've been looking over the rules for several days and have come up with solutions to the firewall, rollcage, fire extinguisher, and other bits of "car-type" stuff. The main one that bothers me is the safety harness and the wrist-straps. The harness is easily do-able if (IF!) you are allowed to have it mounted "backwards", i.e. the harness straps you down to the frame and the release mechanism is in the small of your back. The wrist retaining straps are something that have me stumped.
I would much rather be able to enter the bike in MPS so that I don't have to have all the car-bits... but my understanding of the rules is that the body shell I want to use wouldn't be legal in MPS. Or is there really that much wiggle room?
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The safety harness can be "harnessed on your back. Jack Costello's 'liner works that way. He lays flat on his stomach and a crew member hitches the harness. He has a set up that allows him to unhitch it. Check out 5050B on the SCTA website. A few years ago a gorgeous partial streamlined Harley showed up at El Mirage. I want to say Bud Greenleaf built but I'm not 100% certain. The fairing and seat section covered everything except what was required to be shown. I suppose you could make a sit on streamliner but I think you would be giving up too much. especially against cigar type 'liners. But in MPS I think it would be a much easier row to hoe. If you read the rules you can just about make a streamliner to fit MPS.
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http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.miramarevents.com/dreammachines/media-images/5050b-200dpi.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.miramarevents.com/dreammachines/media-downloads.html&h=664&w=886&sz=206&tbnid=cJQZoXBkoV67DM:&tbnh=108&tbnw=145&hl=en&start=2&prev=/images%3Fq%3D5050b%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
I think that's one of Jack Costellas machines, waaaay fast on a tiny motor.
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http://www.scta-bni.org/El_Mirage/ELM%2005/July/photos/bikes/B5050.JPG
here's one of it naked!
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That was Buddy Martinez. After it spit him off he parked it. It had a center steer hub and a bad Harley. He sat above the rear wheel and leaned way forward to steer. It's profile was like a shingle. I did a foto of him smashing it with a 3 foot long end wrench when his arms quit bleeding. He also rode the Martinez/McVoy ( Correct?) Triumph twin that was the second open bike to ever exceed 200 MPH. The Don Sliger twin Royal Enfield was the first one to exceed 2 bills and he was the one just ahead of Buddy in line that day. It was a challenge between them and Don was first but Buddy was faster.
OK Jack, correct my failing memory.
FREUD
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Your memory is pretty good. The problem is that memories are not as cumulative
as they should be and some kids insist on repeating the same mistakes.
Ed Ranenburg(RIP) was Eye Ball Engineering and was most famous for the Kawashocky
electric bike that ran at my LACR events. Remember the H2 Kawi with the loooog frontend ?
Buddy can tell anybody the importance of CG, CP, and crosswinds.
His fall off was a real contribution to the sport as was Burt Monroe and his fall down.
Remember Burt didn't fall off but fell down and was hurt.
"A picture is worth a thousand words but you have to pay attention and remember."
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Here are the records you are going against in the 1000cc class:
S-BF K. Lyon BMW ' 88 197.121
S-BG K. Lyon BMW ' 90 211.698
S-F Burt Munro Indian ' 67 183.586
S-G Riches Airtech MDR OSXR 8/03 179.523
I have no idea why you would want to build a conventional motorcycle into a streamliner. The drag would be enormous.
The whole idea is to think what will make it go fast, and build it that way, not take something you have and try to make it fast. It never works.
The SCTA doesn't care what you build, they are only concerned for your safety. The rules do assume a rider separated from the engine compartment, but as long as you can meet the safety aspect you can run anything.
These are all soft records. Joe Amo has gone 223 partially streamlined, and 240 blown. Don Vesco went 251 with a 750 streamliner.
Heck, you might consider A-BG, there is no record there.
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There has been a lot of sit up streamliners built in the past... The Indian Arrow, the NSU, and Gilera just to name a few. All went fast in there day, that day has past and it would be pretty hard to build one now that will go fast. If I can ever figure out how to put an image into my responces I will be glad to post a pix of each of those bikes. what kinda 1000cc motor?
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I've seen some pics of the Arrow and heard of the NSU but never heard of the Gilera I'll have to look up on it. Part of the reason for going upright, 1000cc is the $$ factor, I can buy a bike and put a decent shell on it for a helluva lot cheaper than building a one-off streamliner. The smaller displacement streamliner classes aren't well contested as far as records go so I stand a decent chance of getting somewhere, even with the increased frontal area of an upright bike. Besides, it appeals to me since it's more of a "real" bike than a sit-down streamliner. The S/G and the S/F class records are right in the neighborhood of the speed I could reasonably expect to get first time out, considering CdA and power figures I am looking at. Consider a stock Hayabusa: with a Cd of .56 and 155 rwhp, it goes about 187 mph. Assuming I can build a bike with the same frontal area (piece of cake) and if I can only get the Cd down to .28 (pretty crappy for a streamliner but still half the Hayabusa), it would be possible to have the same top speed with half the power. 78 ponies to the wheel is a piece of cake for a liter bike. Engine choice is undecided yet but something narrow would be preferable...
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" A good student of history has a better chance at a future."
The rules and the records all have a reason for being the way they are. It is up to you to find out why that is and prevail over them. Some are better than others but that is more a reflection of human faults than anything motorcycle. By this time in the sport, most things have been tried and the ideas recorded. Safety stuff is pretty well established and if they don't scare themselves too bad too soon, the rider will begin to understand and appreciate them. Performance stuff has not been perfected yet. Some try to legislate performance when they should just leave it alone and let the riders go faster with the same rules. Keep it as safe as you can make it with well establishes lessons and magically the bikers will figure how to go faster if you just leave that part alone. If you try to change too much, you don't understand the speed record sport and probably should find something else to do.
Now for the Burt Monroe contribution.
Go see the movie. Study everything about it because there is going to be a test. He went remarkably fast for the day with great odds against him , but in the end he fell down and hurt himself. Don't let your bravado get ahead of the lessons he left for you as part of making that history you so depend on.
As for Vesco, he was a great student of history and worked not to repeat mistakes. He ran against the Munro record and while the speed seemed to be a easy mark, the failures taught him it would make a better history lesson if left alone.
We don't do enough to preserve our history and often suffer for it.
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The one thing that does worry me is the high speed stability of the vehicle I would be building. I am familiar with airplane and rocket aerodynamic stability criteria and basic motorcycle stability is well documented, but have no experience (or even references) dealing with faired motorcycle stability at high speeds. I have heard of more than a few instances of high-speed oscillation in streamliners and am interested in learning as much as possible about this area; are there any references available on this subject?
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You might want to go over to the build diaries forum and check out "The Guppy". A sit on streamliner gives too much away and as you can see by the photos you can put an awful lot of streamlining on a sit on bike.
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a sit on Roadster would teach them some respect.
Right Eric ? :wink:
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An Italian named Tony Foale has written an excellent book on motorcycle chassis design, covering lots of the oscillation and other issues. (in English) Try www.tonyfoale.com
Thanks,
Jim.
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Thanks for the link Jim, I'll check it out.
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Vesco warned me about the curse, but heck what does he know..... I ran on it anyhow......My crash was 217mph at the 3... slid through the 4 at 174mph..... my better judgement and my better half told me to put a harley motor in the liner and run on a 1350 pushrod record and leave Bert's record alone!
kent
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Jim
Tony Foale is a brit!
kr
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Kent
Tony Foale is a Ozzie who work in England and is now living in Spain
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I wont hold it against him. He seem like a fart smeller I meen smart feller
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oops. Sorry Tony. Love your book and learned a LOT from it.
Thanks,
Jim
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If I only had one (memory). Thanks for mentioning Don Sliger & his double Royal Enfield. When I watched the WFI documentary and it reminded me of those great bikes of the early 70's when the factories were making lots of promises. Don Sliger's bike was a favorite of mine and I could not remember his name....
About modern motorcycle streamliners. I've always believed it's a trade off between the early days of no rules (read simple to build) and today's challenging rules (read hard to build) and the advancement of lots of new technology (read more power).
Motorcycle streamliners have always been and will continue to be really hard to do, period.
Good luck with yours,
Gary
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I guess I can say that my main motivation for going to Speed Week is just to go... I've wanted to go see it since I was a little kid and after watching The World's Fastest Indian I realized that not only could I go and spectate, but that I could actually put together a vehicle and compete for not a lot of cash outlay. My goal for the bike is to make it operational and safe; ultimate speed is not a priority for me. Moderately modifying a factory-built motorcycle is the cheapest, simplest way and also probably the safest, since almost the entire bike will be stock, proven components and geometries. I won't have to spend tons of time designing and fabricating a vehicle from scratch and then wondering if it will actually work or not when I get there. If I can get to the flats, make a few runs, and see the sights, I will come back a happy man. I can always work more complexity into a vehicle in the future, but I figure you gotta walk before you can run!
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Even if you have to borrow a Lambretta, see the event from the inside out and it will give
you a perspective that you won't get any other way. :wink:
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My boss is the one that bought Kents liner. What an incredably complex machine! To get everything up to snuff has required lots of hours. We will be out next week at the Bub meet. See you there!
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oo another motorcycle liner at BUB's...
There are more motorcycle liners at BUB's meet that I can remember at any meet... Three and possibly four could take the 322 record at the same meet.
Going to be exciting.
Jon
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Do you suppose it is by design ?
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Tony Foale is a Englishman who was educated in Australia where he received a degree in electrical engineering, then followed by a M.Eng.Sc. in nuclear engineering and then moved back to England in 1971 and worked there as a Factory manager and then engineer for several companies he then moved to Spain in 1987.
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Hi all,
I am interested in building a 1000cc motorcycle streamliner, and intend on making one that is basically a standard motorcycle with a fully enclosed shell. I would be laying forward to decrease frontal area but otherwise would use a fairly stock motorcycle frame. For a better idea of what I want to do, think Charly Perethian and his "Rifle" high-mileage motorcycle, or Bert Munro's LSR efforts. However, from reading the streamliner rules the SCTA expects the vehicle to be more like a 2-wheeled car than a motorcycle, and the rules are crafted around this configuration. I am confident that I could make my streamliner meet the letter of the rules but do y'all think that the SCTA would allow it to compete?
OK, as an aerodynamicist I believe this would be an interesting way to go. Granted the SCTA and BUB are very experienced in what to and not to do in fully enclosed 2-wheeled vehicles. The question is how far can we reduce drag in a "sit-on" legal two-wheeler (I use that phrase very specifically) without incurring all the mechanical penalties of a streamliner or the safety issues that the sanctioning bodies are honestly trying to protect the rider from?
I believe, (granted, looking at nothing more than historical LSR and my own opinion...), that we can go MUCH faster with a "sit-on" than the current records. I actually believe that we can exceed the current streamliner records (~350 mph) with a "sit-on".
Never mind how. The question I have is whether it would be allowed. I'm not going to put the work into it unless it's legal.
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if burt himself showed at an scta event with his bike he wouldnt be allowed to run in the partial streamline or the streamliner class --if he took the body off maybe in A-gas or fuel--a streamliner (motorcycle ) requires lots of safety equiptment including a roll cage--buy a rule book and read it many times--build a rig to run in a class that you like --FOLLOW THE RULES--and you will get to run --dont follow the rules you wont---yes its that simple-- and whatever eric tells you about aero listen--write it down--read it--understand it ----just some thoughts willie buchta
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Whatever you do just don't try to build a twin engine 2000 cc sidecar over the minimum wheelbase allotment... :mrgreen:
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yea i know what you mean ---ill get it done -willie
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That "minimum wheel-base allotment" should be take out of the SCTA/BNI rule book........................
Back in the mid 1980's I put it in the rules with the approvel of Tom Evans to prevent a couple of
solo streamliners mounting a 3rd wheel and running the sidecar class. We felt at the time the way they were planning to do it it would not be safe....................We have now moved on...... and most if not all the sidecar builders understand what they are doing, and how to build a safe outfit (Max being a good example).........So this rule should now go.......................................................
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bob ive submitted a rule change --we will see what happens thanks willie buchta
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A British team leader announced plans to build a sit on style two wheeler with jet engine to attack the outright record a year before the FIM included construction guidelines into their rules. Over twenty years ago there was another thrust powered two wheeler planned and its mock up made - rocket power with this one.
You could always follow the 'Budweiser' sponsored approach of Hal Needham and set the goal yourself and then go for it, ignoring anyones rule book and operating practices. If it works out safely you will get positive press coverage. Damage the rider or worse and you will get the 'know alls' telling you it was never going to be safe "at any speed".
The only other down side is that those who abide by National (SCTA) or current International (FIM) rules will discuss how "its against our rules" to have made such a machine. But does that make the outcome any less historic?
[A view from a non biker who organised official (ACU) speed attempts in the UK for a sit on jet and rocket bike - "The Boost Palouste"]
Malcolm UK.