Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: indymike on March 30, 2012, 03:31:03 AM
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Is the '48 era Fiat body legal in altered coupe classes. I'm asking for a friend of mine who is not familiar at all about LSR. I have seen them in CC classes. But in the altered classes the wheelbase has to be pretty close to the original which would be awful short. Would this be do-able (spelling) in one of the lower classes or not.
Indymike
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Mike,
You can use the Fiat if you wish. The problem would be the wheelbase. You are restricted to keeping all the body panels in OEM configuration, meaning that you cannot extend the body for a longer wheelbase. A small car for sure but, look at the records, Hondata has run most of the small displacement classes over 200 MPH with good horsepower and better aero. Using a vintage engine would be a better choice. V4 or V4F will fit better than a GMC.
DW
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Before I get beat up I should clarify my previous post.
The Fiat cannot be used in the Modified Category, Altered classes because of the year break restriction. This cat/class starts at 1981. Move to the Classic Category/Altered classes there are no V4/V4F engine breaks. The lowest engine break is now F, up to 183 cid, new for 2012. The Fiat could run in the Vintage Category but must use a vintage engine, this is where my V4/V4F comment was in my mind.
DW
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Was a topolino considered a sports car? Could it be a modified sports? I believe it was a 2 seater. I can picture a chopped fiat with an exteneded front end, narrow front track, no front fenders. Could make a good LS car.
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http://www.myrideisme.com/Blog/bonneville-speed-week-2010-baddest-race-cars-1/
Like this? (this one is comp coupe)
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Do I remember correctly that George Field's #125 CC is a Sinca body? And there's also Rex Svoboda's whatever - another CC. I don't have photos here - they're at the house 'puter - but if you want to see 'em I'll get them for you tonight or tomorrow.
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Fiat/Simca related question. What happened to the one that was featured as a build-up in Street Rodder 20 or so years ago that had a Quad four engine? I believe it was candy blue when they finished it?
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I think Rex's started life as a SAAB.
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Jay Storer's blue Fiat went the way of all race cars. I think it was bought by someone then lay still born. I don't remember it being run again, even with a different color. Nice car.
DW
PS - Dean, send an email to Jim Miller. He needs something to spin him up. Check the note at the end of the Comp Coupe writeup. The car is one or the other, can't be both.
DW
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Jay Storer's blue Fiat went the way of all race cars. I think it was bought by someone then lay still born. I don't remember it being run again, even with a different color. Nice car.
DW
PS - Dean, send an email to Jim Miller. He needs something to spin him up. Check the note at the end of the Comp Coupe writeup. The car is one or the other, can't be both.
DW
Thanks for the notes Dan, I am going to dig out those SRM issues and re-read them!
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Fred, now that you mention it -- you're right. Rex's car did begin as a Saab. It's now a treasured memento -- since Saab, the corporation, has gone under. R I P Swedish carmakers.
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Maybe a Simca with a Buick straight 8. Probably light enough to run direct drive. Would that be a handfull?
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Thanks for all the input. I only have pictures of my friend's Fiat (stock frame and running gear). The hood is missing but looks pretty aero for what it is. The straight 8 sounds kinda' hairy (about as long as the car). With a tube frame, a proper engine and the right suspension this could be an interesting deal.
I guess if the Hondata can stay on it's wheels at 2 bills it might be a possible project. Just might have to find somebody to drive it. Dan?
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Trent and Dan--Thanks for your kind comments on our Simca. I was Jay`s partner in the car, although I contributed fabrication, legwork, some tuning and driving rather than cash. Still broke, actually....We ran the car at El Mirage and set the F/GCC Record in `89, then managed to set the F/FCC Record at the Salt in `91. Only 166 and change, that record stood until `09, I think, when the Crosley Boys took it. The next year,(`10, ) Miriam blasted the record out of the atmosphere....I moved to Portland in `94, and couldn`t help run the car. I also couldn`t buy Jay out, so the Car was sold to a gentleman in Texas. He is involved with a different kind of Racing, and essentially uses the car as an Office Decoration. Jay did call him a couple of years ago to try to buy it back, but without success. Pity. The Quad Four wasn`t worked all the way, and I know it had Red Hat potential.....I still treasure the Record Certs and the one Trophy I have. Those were great times, for sure....
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Trent and Dan--Thanks for your kind comments on our Simca. I was Jay`s partner in the car, although I contributed fabrication, legwork, some tuning and driving rather than cash. Still broke, actually....We ran the car at El Mirage and set the F/GCC Record in `89, then managed to set the F/FCC Record at the Salt in `91. Only 166 and change, that record stood until `09, I think, when the Crosley Boys took it. The next year,(`10, ) Miriam blasted the record out of the atmosphere....I moved to Portland in `94, and couldn`t help run the car. I also couldn`t buy Jay out, so the Car was sold to a gentleman in Texas. He is involved with a different kind of Racing, and essentially uses the car as an Office Decoration. Jay did call him a couple of years ago to try to buy it back, but without success. Pity. The Quad Four wasn`t worked all the way, and I know it had Red Hat potential.....I still treasure the Record Certs and the one Trophy I have. Those were great times, for sure....
WOW! Thanks Paul. At 42 I am cursed with a photographic memory. I rememeber the door blowing open at speed? That was one of the coolest cars EVER IMHO. Enjoyed the build writeup (when SRM actually did them)
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Was a topolino considered a sports car?
Not in anybody's wildest dreams.
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The chop was in SRM August 1989
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Mike,
I need a 300 MPH ride. Already have a red hat. I have a standing offer but my 'mature' body will not fit in the car.
DW
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Mike,
I need a 300 MPH ride. Already have a red hat. I have a standing offer but my 'mature' body will not fit in the car.
DW
Dan,
I will give you a ride in the Modified Roadster at 300 MPH. Only one catch (LOL) it will cost you the same as it will cost me to go that fast, about $100,000 cash should cover everything.
Tom G.
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Not looking for 'bought' ride Tom. I would rather work on a car and be part of a team. For everyone's info I am not the guy who bought a lottery ticket on Friday night 15 min. before cutoff.
DW
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Hey DW, got a blown AA motor? We got the car :-D
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Thunder..Nortonist. answered one of your questions...I don't believe DW chimed in..If it IS then all of Georges records need to moved or be lost depending on the speeds....but don't look for that to happen.........Good Luck
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I think Rex V has a good shot at over 300 with his SAAB.
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I always liked Jays Car, Would have liked to own/drive it.
Jay Storer's blue Fiat went the way of all race cars. I think it was bought by someone then lay still born. I don't remember it being run again, even with a different color. Nice car.
DW
PS - Dean, send an email to Jim Miller. He needs something to spin him up. Check the note at the end of the Comp Coupe writeup. The car is one or the other, can't be both.
DW
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Dan,
From what I understand these days, one of the most challenging efforts of going 300 mph is trying to find a motel room. Do crews still rebuild engines, trans. and rear ends in them?
As far as driving a stock wheelbase Fiat, in any class, a person would almost have to find someone called 'Slim' or 'Shorty' or 'Slim-Shorty' to get 'er done.
Mike
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Mike,
My personsal thought is that the sport has advanced to a state of technology that if you can't come off the trailer ready to run and be competitive in your chosen class you are too late. That said you will not find the rebuilds in town that we found to be so charming in the past.
Engine swaps for class changes generally happen on the salt.
DW
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something caught my eye...
The Fiat cannot be used in the Modified Category, Altered classes because of the year break restriction.
a '48-ish fiat can still run in altered if it's illegal for the classic category, correct?
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Illegal in what aspect?
DW
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efi
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OK, thats settled. How about the requirement for seating for 4 or more?
DW
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dan, what's your definition of "generic" because that's what that rule is called in the book. gt/ms doesn't say all two seaters. it says "sports" cars with two seats. is/was a '48 fiat a sports car?
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Nathan,
You were at the meetings. You guys decided that a sports car is two seats, a coupe four seats.
Is there a change in the future?
DW
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Nathan,
You were at the meetings. You guys decided that a sports car is two seats, a coupe four seats.
Is there a change in the future?
DW
I really don't understand the logic in two seats being a sports car and four seats being a coupe. IMO if a four seat car was advertised as a sports car, and sold to the public as a sports car, how can a four seat car not be a sports car.
Tom G.
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I am with Nortonist. Fiat Topolinos and Simcas like Jays were weezer economy cars built to meet post-war demand. They were far from "sporty"
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Yeah, I was going to add that Fiats were sportscars like BSA M20s were sportsbikes.
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Nathan,
You were at the meetings. You guys decided that a sports car is two seats, a coupe four seats.
Is there a change in the future?
DW
Dan, I'm just reading out of the rule book. From pg. 79: This class is limited to 2 seat production sports cars.
I believe it was deemed that a CRX isn't a sports car (although Drew Peitch ran his CRX in GT at Muroc years before this whole ordeal). Woudn't a vehicle trying to compete in gt/ms need to meet both the criteria of being a two seater as well as being a sports car?
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I don't control the committees. If you guys want Fiat coupes in GT/Mod Sports write it into the rulebook.
DW
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I don't control the committees. If you guys want Fiat coupes in GT/Mod Sports write it into the rulebook.
No, but you do sign off on record certs. You posed the question about seating for four so you tell us. How would you rule this one? I read the requirement for GT/MS as being a two seater sports car. Seems like the general concensus (on here right now at least) is that a '48-ish Fiat isn't a sports car.
I honestly don't care one way or the other but people suggesting that a Fiat or a Chevy SSR or whatever else is some how a GT/MS because they have two seats is well... kinda lame. I honestly think the old rules were fine. They just weren't followed very well in some instances.
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Something else caught my eye...
The lowest engine break is now F, up to 183 cid, new for 2012.
F is the ONLY class that a foreign car can run if the car is entered as Classic, right?
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Yep -- that's real clear (in the Rule Book).
What's not clear, at least to me, is where in h-ell is this going -- are even where did it come from?
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Nathan is bored and not working on his sedan :roll:
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This has just caused the dogmatic, draconian traditionalist in me to rear its ugly head. Usually, he's pretty subdued.
Sports cars have 2 seats - left and right - and no marketing effort, regardless of the performance capability of any car will sway my thinking - end of story.
And for that matter, there had better be some chrome on it, too.
And I realize that I've just excluded the 55-57 Thunderbird (Bench seat), Ferrari 365P Berlinetta Speciale (3 seats - too many), the Jaguar XKE 2+2 and the MGB-GT. Those are "sporty" cars, NOT "sports cars".
Flame away, boys and girls - I stand my ground, and I will not be moved. :evil:
Now with respect to the rule book, and regarding the Topolino, the phrase "comfortable high speed touring" negates the Fiat.
That was cathartic. :-D
All in good fun.
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Nathan is bored and not working on his sedan :roll:
LOL you may have got me there Glen. I would normally have nothing to do with this conversation until I saw the part about a Fiat being illegel for Alt in the Modified Category. That obviously isn't correct and I'd hate for someone to read that and assume that all '81 and older foreign coupes/sedans MUST run in Classic because that isn't true.
Everyone is welcome. :-D
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Nathan,
Go thru the door behind you and ask John his thoughts on this subject.
DW
PS - I gave up on this argument when a committee tried to redesign the genre. It was so easy in 1965.
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Maybe a roadster with a rumble seat is a GT :evil:
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Nathan,
Go thru the door behind you and ask John his thoughts on this subject.
DW
PS - I gave up on this argument when a committee tried to redesign the genre. It was so easy in 1965.
I was just walking along officer, minding my own business and out of nowhere, this bus just ran right over me. I didn't even see it coming!
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thought about this some more...
Illegal in what aspect?
DW
you could be illegal for classic in two ways: 1) efi and 2) engine class larger than F, right? Or is there now no class for an '81 and older foreign coupe/sedan to run with an engine larger than F?
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Maybe a roadster with a rumble seat is a GT :evil:
Actually, Glen, I was told that you have to run a top in GT. Gerald Davenport needed to whip one up for his Crosley to run GT. I see he's since moved on to MS.
Oh, and GT's tend to stay pointed in the direction you aim them. :wink
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Nathan,
As you well know the current rules for Modified Category do not specify a year break. The only restriction is that the car is illegal for the classic classes. Therefore, a pre-1981 car with EFI is allowed to run in the Modified Category classes.
As to my certification of a car, one would hope that all these issues are ironed out and the safety complied with prior to making a run. One of the thingsinspectors are told is that if they think there is a classification issue they should contact Steve Davies and he, along with the committee chair will resolve the problem before actual track time.
This site and the contacts in the rulebook are good sources for those new to the sport. I point most everyone I communicate with to this forum.
DW