Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: 38flattie on March 01, 2012, 03:59:55 PM
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Ok, gentlemen, I'd like to hear your opinion/experience on how to plumb a dry sump!
We have 2 diverse opinions on how we should do it. Obviously, one person is me, but to be fair to the team, we often fuss and discuss issues like this.
One person wants to put the filter on the pressure side, between the sump pump, and the block, which might be considered the 'traditional' way.
The argument:
The main issue is that if you restrict the scavenging of the pan, then you've defeated the purpose of the dry sump and you risk backing up the oil in the pan, the sump going dry and then losing the oil supply to the pressure stage of the pump and ultimately the engine.
The other person, wants to put the filter on the return side, after the pump, but before the oil tank reservoir, on the scavenger return line.
The argument:
With the filter on the scavenger return line, the reservoir does not become contaminated-you have clean oil in the reservoir, and clean oil going through the pressure side of the pump. with the filter on the pressure side,you are contaminating the reservoir, running it through the pump,then filtering that oil, before it goes to the engine.
How do you guys plumb them, and why?
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I'm with the filter in the scavenge side, aircraft SOP :-D
beaten into me by the old man :roll:
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On my Dart BBC, I run a six stage Barnes dry sump.
I have four scavenge lines coming off of the pan, all with Moroso in line screen filters.
The fifth scavenge line comes from a manifold that I built in the lifter valley. This manifold comes up through the existing distributor hole in the tunnel ram manifold (I use a front mount offset drive magneto) and runs to the pump with no screen filter but I plan to add one.
The scavenge lines (2 AN-16) come out of the pump and run to my seven gallon dry sump tank.
From the tank I run a single AN-16 line back to the pump pressure section and then it goes to a System One screen canister. From that filter the oil goes through a two quart Nascar style Wix spin on (car type) filter and then splits up to feed the main block galleys, the valve spring spray bars, and two three quart oil accumulators which are tied into the block feed with a one way valve in the main feed line just prior to where the Accumulatos tie in, to hopefully save the motor if I lose the dry sump belt.
We check the System One after every run and if we find any debris at all we change the Wix filter.
If the Wix shows any metal, the pan comes off the motor for a "bearing drill".
Last but not least I run a oil pressure tattle tell hooked to a large red shift light aimed at my face that lights up any time the oil pressure drops to 50 psi.
Overkill? Not if you realize that every last cent of equity in my house is in this motor, and if I hurt it, it may be a few years before I can afford to fix it.
I am 65 and a few more years may be more than I have on this Earth. Bob
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So, two replies, two different views!
Thanks guys!
Queeziryder, I'm well aware of what you are saying about aircraft SOP. My dad was an aircraft mechanic for over 30 years, for one of the major airlines. He also dod all the work on my single engine planes!
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I do both! I run a corse (~80 micron) inspection type scavange filter and an automotive type paper element filter to the engine.
IMO you should always run a synthetic or paper element filter to the engine as the fine sediment type debris can not be filtered correctly with only a screen type filter. You know, that fine stuff you see in the bottom of the oil pan when you tear the engine down.
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I run both one I can check between runs between the return pump and the tank then the race filter before it goes in the block
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I'm the guy that likes to debate how to "boil the ocean" with Buddy! It is all good stuff - as we constantly are learning.
Here is where I am coming from:
a) The oil pan has large screen filters in the scavenge pickups - helps protect the pump.
b) I'l totally okay with large micron screen filters on the scavenge return lines to the sump (we have dual #12 lines) - as this style of filter won't restrict the volume of oil and will ensure that we don't backup oil in the pan.
c) Bonus: Having two filters on the output/pressure side makes sense to me. One could be a System One or a Oberg (with a nice screen to inspect stuff) and then another a cartridge type (WIX, etc.. ) to capture the finer stuff.
To me this gives us the best of both worlds.
My main contention is that we don't want to run a restrictive cartridge style filter on the scavenge pump lines that feed the sump -- too restrictive in my mind.
Keep the opinions coming . . . especially for things that might save the life of a very expensive motor! We have neither time nor money to start over (at least we hope not. 8-)
B&S
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my tank has srcreen type filter built in on return line (oberg). then a paper filter inline to supply engine. seems work for me . easy to check oberg wash out and use over and over.
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Haha!
Coming from a background filled with planes, and A&P mechanics, I much prefer their way of doing things.
I don't like to run dirty oil through the high pressure side of a pump-I also don't like to have all of my reserve oil contaminated.
My contention is that regardless of where the filter is, if you plug it, you're screwed! The higher the pressure going through the filter, the higher the differential pressure-therefore the higher the restriction. I seriously don't believe that the filter on the scavenger side is going to hurt us flow wise.
Having 80 micron screens on the scavenger side, only takes out very big particulates. In my experience, if you have anything that big in the screen, the damage is done! The systems I work with daily, use either a 6 or 10 micron filter, and it's always before the reservoir.
JMHO-I posed this question to learn from the experience, and failures, from you guys replying. Thanks for the answers!
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Buddy, the idea you like is great, use it. :-D
My way makes more power (less restriction of 3 or 4 -12 bodies) and allows you to inspect the engine between runs, which is why I do it that way. I always try to inspect the scavange filter between runs as it lets me know I have a problem before it's a major issue. My oil tank & lines come apart for cleaning after any type of engine failure anyway. This is what my testing has lead me to believe. 8-)
Besides we're talking race cars here, and we're supose to inspect them regularly. Tough to pull to the side of the road in an airplane and check things.... :cheers:
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Haha! Sure ,Mike, tell me what I want to hear!
Seriously, though, I don't doubt that this has worked for you-you have the numbers and records to prove it!
I am trying to figure this statement out, however-"My way makes more power (less restriction of 3 or 4 -12 bodies)"
Since I have only one scavenge return, between the pump and reservoir, but two pressure lines, how am I going to have less restriction with the filter on the pressure side, as long as the scavenge is of sufficient size?
Add to the fact that B&S proposes to take each pressure line into a 1 to 3 fuel block, to run to each main, and it seams to me ALL the real restriction is being created on the pressure side.
I'm not trying to be argumentative-rather, I'm trying to understand a different way of 'skinning the cat'.
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Haha! Sure ,Mike, tell me what I want to hear!
Seriously, though, I don't doubt that this has worked for you-you have the numbers and records to prove it!
I am trying to figure this statement out, however-"My way makes more power (less restriction of 3 or 4 -12 bodies)"
Since I have only one scavenge return, between the pump and reservoir, but two pressure lines, how am I going to have less restriction with the filter on the pressure side, as long as the scavenge is of sufficient size?
Add to the fact that B&S proposes to take each pressure line into a 1 to 3 fuel block, to run to each main, and it seams to me ALL the real restriction is being created on the pressure side.
I'm not trying to be argumentative-rather, I'm trying to understand a different way of 'skinning the cat'.
Simple, my point is you may only have one return line but you have 3 or 4 scavange sections returning oil & AIR to the tank. A filter of the type you propose creates more back pressure in the pump. This is why you see multiple return lines on real race motors....... :-D
Of course you may have a filter with zero pressure drop......... J/K
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Woody,
I agree with almost everyone regarding screen strainers, make them coarse, number 60 minimum, (that is 60 openings per sq inch, pumps don't like to suck) then run a very high flow but efficient (i.e. very fine) filter between the scavenger and the tank, the scavenger sections will have no problem pumping through a good filter. I would then put some sort of filter, I would even agree to one of the screen filters everyone is so infatuated with, but only because you can open them up for inspection. But now think what are you going to find in that filter? If you find metal it can have only gotten there by the pressure pump failing or you poured it into the reservoir so if the filter that is between the scavenger sections and the tank it doing its job then the filter on the pressure pump hasn't got anything to do! EXCEPT that new oil right out of the bottle can be amazingly contaninated. I have personally done microscope inspection of "new" oil that I ran through a 1/2 micron filter pad ( 1/2 micron is .0000020 inches) an you cannot believe the stuff you find, yes some can be to small to be a problem but there are a lot of 10-25 micron size particles also.
One of the things you need to think about is the quality of the filter. 99% of all automotive filters are cellulose based, paper, and they are easy to plug, inefficient but cheap and they are truly 1940 technology. I have always recommended going with a good industrial filter which uses glass fiber technology for the elements. You will get the finest filtering with the least pressure drop especially compared to paper automotive filters. Good ones are not cheap, but neither is your engine. It is kind of like buying a motorcycle helmet, if you have a $25 dollar head then buy the $25 helmet same for oilfilters. The names you want to look at are Parker, Pall, Donaldson, Schroeder and there are several more. Pall is the best and the most expensive. I have an element for a Pall filter that is 1-1/4 inch in diameter, by 4 inches long and the pressure drop with 100 SUS oil at 6 gallons/min (approx what a good high pressure section on your pump puts out) is less than 5 psi and it will filter down to 2 microns at 99.99% efficiency. No auto filter can even come close. I designed high pressure hydraulic systems for 20years, some with flows over 1000 gallons per minute at pressure over 5000 psi and good filtration and clean oil is the life of this type of system
Rex
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Rex,
Parker, Pall, Donaldson, and Schroeder are filters I use everyday- I manage a very Hi-tech drilling rig, with several hydraulic systems, based on a 800 gallon reservoir. All of our filters are on the return side, not pressure side.
Most of the filters I use are 6 micron, with a few being 10 micron. I have differential gauges on most of them, so that I can see by the pressure differential, when they are needing changed out.
It's interesting how different backgrounds, and experiences, lead to such different ways of doing things!
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This is why you see multiple return lines on real race motors....... :-D
Mike, you REALLY know how to hurt a guy! :cheers:
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This is why you see multiple return lines on real race motors....... :-D
Mike, you REALLY know how to hurt a guy! :cheers:
Heck, we're going to find out shortly whether we have a 'Real Race Motor' or not . . . can't wait to get this old girl on the dyno!
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Bob Drury- how many quarts of oil do you typically run in the 28 quart tank?
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Jack, my tank is actually a nine gallon tank, and I run seven in the system.
Keep in mind that the tank is in the rear passenger seat area and that I have three AN-16 (1") lines that are over six feet in length running to and from the pump.
The five scavenge lines and various lines to and from the filters add up to over twenty five feet of AN-12 (3/4").
Then add the six quarts held by the two accumulators, three quarts held by filters and probably at least three quarts or more in the pan and upper lifter valley (which is sealed from draining down on the cam and crank).
Add it all up and you can see why I run so much oil.
The worst part is that I run methanol and up to 25% nitro, neither of which is petroleum based.
This causes severe dilution of the oil (along with low tension piston rings) especially during warm ups.
For this reason I preheat the oil and engine water and try not to let it sit at idle for long periods of time.
After two passes, I have to drain it all out and pour in another seven gallons.
I run five gallons of 50W Torco or Valvoline race oil plus two gallons of Royal Purple 10/40 Synthetic which I have experimented with and sems to combine and not seperate.
I tried the same experiment using Valvoline sythetic with Valvoline race oil and it turned up a froth that has sat in a container for two years and is still a murky mess. I would run straight 50 or 60W synthetic if I could afford it, but as it is , each oil change is about two hundred bucks.
Incedently, one of the advantages to running the accumulators which are precharged with a air bladder system, is that after the initial fire up, the six quarts is held in place by electric solenoid valves and Before startup the next day I open the valves which prelubes the engine so that I don't have to remove the dry sump belt to prime the motor.
Oh, and one more thing..... I have almost as much money in braided hose and fittings as in the pump itself....... Bob
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I allways pump threw the filter, system one is my choice, canister filters are designed to be on the presure side. system one offers 3 or 4 different micron filters to meet your requirments.
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Dammit John, you're supposed to take MY side! Lol! :-D
Thanks John, that's the way we'll probably plumb it.
Dale, I don't want to hear it! :-D
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80 micron is .003149. That puts the filter in the "birds and rocks category". All particles cause damage. It's the size that matters.
The larger particles gouge chunks out of your expensive parts, the smaller ones polish (wear) them.
6 micron = 0.000236 That's a filter.
Restriction is a function of filter size and area. If you think you have a restrictive filter then a larger area is required, not a larger opening.
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blown injected flat Cad on fuel , oh yea , cant wait. I will have a psycological specialist on site to make sure you have a sound mind before we fire it up. and maybe a little kitty litter :evil:
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John, everyone that know me, knows I'm certifiably nuts!
Kitty litter might be a good precaution, though, if things get out of hand!
Oh, and while I'm there, I need to chat with you about the next one- a procharged blown, 12 port, injected, 322 Jimmy on fuel!
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80 micron is .003149. That puts the filter in the "birds and rocks category". All particles cause damage. It's the size that matters.
The larger particles gouge chunks out of your expensive parts, the smaller ones polish (wear) them.
6 micron = 0.000236 That's a filter.
Restriction is a function of filter size and area. If you think you have a restrictive filter then a larger area is required, not a larger opening.
Dean, you miss the point. it's an "inspection" filter. I prefer not to have a restriction in the scavange return hense the 80 micron "choice I made". I inspect it after every pass to check for any engine issues. This allows me to "see" how the engine is doing inside and still make more power for less cost. My dyno results show ~8/12 hp on a 600 hp engine without the restriction. JMPOV.
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Oddly enough I am building a blown fuel jimmy also, looking for some billit main caps, Norton told me he got his from Fontana but I cant get him to return my calls. Any other sourses?
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John, I just talked to Joe, and he has a set. Want me to get them coming?
Gonna have to pay you for the dyno anyway- I can bring them to you.
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Mike,
If you are seeing 8-12 hp difference between a low restriction (read low efficiency here) and a more efficient filter (read finer filter rating here) then again you are using the wrong type of filter for your return to the reservoir. As Dean said and 80 micron filter catches rocks and small children, what is going to kill your engine is going to be the 25 micron and smaller particles. Hydraulic horse power is calculated by this formula: HP= pressure x flow/1714 x pump efficiency, pressure is in psi and flow is in gallons per minute. We also need to remember that the average flow from all of the scavenger sections cannot be greater than the flow of the pressure section, you cannot pump out more than you have pumped in. If your pressure section pumped 10 gpm (which is high) and your max oil pressure is 100 psi then the power to drive the pressure pump would be:10 x 100/1714 x(pump efficiency) Gear pumps are notoriously inefficient so even if we said it was 50% efficient the power to drive the pressure pump would be about 1.2 hp and on the scavenger side most of the power required is from the basic internal friction/parasitic drag that is inherent in gear pumps. One of the things that is not taken into account here is that long stacked gear pumps have a huge amount of internal friction just because of the way they are built and mounted, all of those -12 lines hanging off the scavenger sections will actually cause the pump to bend, it may be an extremely small amount but when the side clearance between the gears and the side plates is less than .0005 inches it doesn't take much. Ever take a pump apart and see the ware on the side plates in just one area,? that is from the pump stack being deflected by mounting stresses. This gets back to the advantage of building a single collector manifold for the scavenger out lets and having a single large return line and also supporting the back of the pump stack.
So if you are seeing 8-12 hp difference you are probably not seeing resistance to flow your are probably seeing the horse power required by the pump to eat itself up. When you look at the junk in your return line filter how do you tell which is from the engine and what is from the oil pumps? Gear pumps when they are new are the very best they will ever be because once they are started to turn they begin to wear themselves out, for our applications they work pretty well and are relatively inexpensive so that it what we get.
Rex
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I hate it when someone is both smarter than me and makes sense with backup information at the same time!
Now if that information isn't worth donating much needed cash to this site, you must be from another planet.
I just wish that rather than shooting spitwads in class that I wouldn't have to do the math with my fingers and toes..............
Bob :-D :? :-D
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Rex, you are right. In my memory I thought it was a 2% improvment, but I went and checked my records. Only 1.5% improvment. That made the gains I saw only 6-9 hp. As far as the filter is concerned my testing used the same filter (A-B-A test) so that part of your reply dosen't fit in this test.
As far as the pump bending.... really? The Dailey pump tested has bearing supports at every stage along with dowels to align the sacvange and pressure sections so there not likely to be any gear rub in the housings unlike say a Weaver pump. Also the pump I use has an internal manifold but still preforms better with dual -16 returns.
The math you supplied is great and you're right as the pump I run puts out < 7 gpm at less than 80 psi. so using your formula would be right. On the other hand maybe my testing was done correctly and I'm seeing the improvments that your "calculations" say I can't be making. Van Dyne may have seen other numbers on his dyno but Stewart builds different engines than I do, and builds them in a different style so if you're using that as a basis for this discussion I'd say that's why we race.
Now getting back to the filters. I clam no advanced knowledge on the subject, I just posted what I saw on my dyno and what setup I like to run in my and my customers cars and the reason I do so. If you can look at the inspection filter and see a problem before it become's major your can save yourself many more dollars from an engine failure than worrying about the cost of rebuilding your oil pump and cleaning the tank.
One last note to those reading this and making their own decisions on which way you want to plumb your oil system. Keep in mind it's very easy to get an idea what your inspection filter is telling you. I open the filter and spray it off with brake kleen onto a clean white paper towel. I use a loop or at least a 5x power magnifier and look at what comes out of the filter. If you do this after every pass you will some iron dust, you can tell with a magnet. Small aluminum specks can be the springs rubbing on the heads. The valve springs also make little specks or splinters from the titanium retainers. Any flakes of aluminum or copper should let you know that it's time to stop and look a little deeper. I found some little white plastic type slivers one time before a Trans-Am race, I dodn't know what it was but as I thought about it I realized it was from a valve seal. How did it get there? Broken valve spring! Save the race for us, finished 2nd at Mosport that day.
I just pulled the engine from my Modified roadster and took a picture of the pump. This is what I run currently, 5 stage Dailey pump, Fram HP6 (I know they're junk :-D) filter before engine iol in, and a low restriction scavange return filter of 80 microns. The oil pan does have a very corse screen to keep any big chunks ( like a failed lifter) from jamming the pump and stopping it.
I don't like to make long reply's normally and that leaves the door open for other interpretations. I hope this fills in some of the blanks I my have left out of the original responce. I also wish my memory was better so I would't get other people jumping out of their chair saying BS.
Lots of different ways to skin a cat. This is mine, not wrong, just different.
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Hmmm, looks like Queezirider, Rex, and I, are the only ones who like the filter on the scavenger side.
Still, I remain undaunted!
I think strongly enough in my idea, although based on aviation and hydraulics, and I respect the opinions and experience on this board enough, that I think some testing and data are necessary to make a final decision.
I’m going to test the engine, to get a baseline, with no filter 1 run, then move the filter to the pressure side, then the scavenger side. I’m curious to see how moving the filter effects to HP, if at all..
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Or, more cautiously: pressure side, scavanger side, then, if the filters were CLEAN, no filter.
Mike
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....or that! :cheers:
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I think that I have related this story before but back in the late 80s early 90s Electromotive was doing all of the race engines for Nissan and they used a Pall HH7500 filter rated at 2 micron on the scavenger side of the oil pumps and their thinking, which proved correct, was that this filter would clean every thing while the engine ran on the dyno. The large HH7500 filter with a 2 micron element has a pressure drop at 10 gpm of 1 psi!! Their engines made major HPs and ran in and won many 12 an 24 hour races.
The industrial Pall filters are probably 10-15 times more expensive than the best Fram ever made but you can get pretty good deal on them on E Bay. Again if you have a 20-30,000 dollar motor is a $100 filter element that actually works to expensive??
Rex
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Nope!
That's why my rep from Kinecor is cross referencing the Fram for me! :cheers:
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Flatee, go buy a new Fram and a new Wix race filter and cut them apart.
You may be suprised by the difference in quality between the two.
Then if you buy the mount for a Wix two quart Nascar filter you will have more that doubled the surface area a hell of a lot cheaper than a hundred bucks a pop. Bob
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Bob, while I agree that would be a very good way to get a better filter than Fram, and cheaper than the filter I will run, I'm going to stay the course.
I have all my fluids on the rig, analyzed on a monthly basis. Even changing brands, of supposedly the same micron filter, often shows up on the monthly analysis reports.
As much better as Wix is than Fram, Donalson, Dall, and Parker, etc., are even far better improvements in both filtering capability,and flow.
Even though the way I plan on plumbing it is not conventional in cars, I still feel it is the proper way to filter oil. I'm very curious to see what, if any, differences there are on the dyno.
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The PALL cross over to a Fram HP4 is PALL 25-0429. Tony
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Flatee, go buy a new Fram and a new Wix race filter and cut them apart.
You may be suprised by the difference in quality between the two.
Then if you buy the mount for a Wix two quart Nascar filter you will have more that doubled the surface area a hell of a lot cheaper than a hundred bucks a pop. Bob
I wouldn't wish a Fram on my worst enemy. I am just tickled that a supplier I just got set up with handles, Wix, Joe Gibbs oil, Royal Purple, and other brands I trust.
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Thanks Tony!
I have my Donaldson guy crossing it, but can you cross the filter I need, a WIX 51268R, to a Pall?
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Flatee, go buy a new Fram and a new Wix race filter and cut them apart.
You may be suprised by the difference in quality between the two.
Then if you buy the mount for a Wix two quart Nascar filter you will have more that doubled the surface area a hell of a lot cheaper than a hundred bucks a pop. Bob
I wouldn't wish a Fram on my worst enemy. I am just tickled that a supplier I just got set up with handles, Wix, Joe Gibbs oil, Royal Purple, and other brands I trust.
Trent, who makes the Joe Gibbs and Royal Purple filters? Joe Gibbs doesn't make filters or oil, but I don't know who does his filters.
I believe Champ labs makes the Royal Purple filters, and also makes the filters for Mobile.
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Flatee, I wasn't recomending the Wix as a primary filter, but as a backup filter.
And I DO run filters on the scavenge lines, although they are basicly trash filters (Moroso inlines).
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Hmmm, looks like Queezirider, Rex, and I, are the only ones who like the filter on the scavenger side.
Still, I remain undaunted!
I think strongly enough in my idea, although based on aviation and hydraulics, and I respect the opinions and experience on this board enough, that I think some testing and data are necessary to make a final decision.
I’m going to test the engine, to get a baseline, with no filter 1 run, then move the filter to the pressure side, then the scavenger side. I’m curious to see how moving the filter effects to HP, if at all..
We run a HP6 on the 222 Camaro with no bearing problems even after compleatly destroying one piston and hurting 3
others on our 294mph run, bearings still looked good. BUT had to rebuild pump roters on pan pickup side from trash going
through.
Once you hear that thing on the dyno, you'll say screw testing for filter hp :-D
But I wouldn't ever run it without a filter.
Better to find hp through air fuel ratio-timing -boost and plenty of ice and water flow to intercooler.
Good luck and get some videos of dyno runs for us. JL222
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Once you hear that thing on the dyno, you'll say screw testing for filter hp :-D
Good luck and get some videos of dyno runs for us. JL222
I hope you're right- it's been a long time coming!
Regardless of what happens on the dyno,success or carnage, I promise lots video time.You guys will probably get tired of them and tell me to knock it off! :-D
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I bet your wrong. I have a couple of videos that sometimes I just listen too just to hear Al Teague, Chauvin Emmons and everyone else.............. It keeps me from giving up and leading a normal life.........
Bob
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JL,
John, with all of the HP that you and Troy make looking for hp buy testing filters is really a waste of time and money. You probably couldn't detect a 5 hp difference the way your motor is trying to rip the dyno apart!
Rex
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I am not familiar with the filters from Gibbs or Royal, I just like them for thier lube, I will do some digging and find the answer for you though.
Flatee, go buy a new Fram and a new Wix race filter and cut them apart.
You may be suprised by the difference in quality between the two.
Then if you buy the mount for a Wix two quart Nascar filter you will have more that doubled the surface area a hell of a lot cheaper than a hundred bucks a pop. Bob
I wouldn't wish a Fram on my worst enemy. I am just tickled that a supplier I just got set up with handles, Wix, Joe Gibbs oil, Royal Purple, and other brands I trust.
Trent, who makes the Joe Gibbs and Royal Purple filters? Joe Gibbs doesn't make filters or oil, but I don't know who does his filters.
I believe Champ labs makes the Royal Purple filters, and also makes the filters for Mobile.
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JL,
John, with all of the HP that you and Troy make looking for hp buy testing filters is really a waste of time and money. You probably couldn't detect a 5 hp difference the way your motor is trying to rip the dyno apart!
Rex
Yea, and the room, last time we dynoed, it shook the knot hole patches out of the plywood cieling 12 ft up. and dust and
crap was floating all over. on previous runs its blown most of the floresence lights out and unplugged the cord to the dyno chassis. I finnally siliconed the plug in [should be a twist lock].
It vibrates the room so much they have to put the recording part of the dyno in another room and shut the door.
I was trying to take a temp reading off the headers with a temp gun and decided ''to heck with this I'm not standing
here another second I'm out of here '':-o
Would like to run an inline filter after pump pickup and before tank #16 line but not sure of flow and filter size.
JL222
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How do you open up the Fram can to look at the element?
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How do you open up the Fram can to look at the element?
You have to cut it with an oil filter cutter. Many dealers sell the cutters on the net for about $35. Tony
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When I didn't have a cutter I cut it apart with snips. You have to punch a hole first and then start the cut from there. The main thing is to not use a saw or abrasive cutter as that will contaminate the evidence.
Pete
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Wobbly, after losing my first one I bought a new one.
As per usual, I then found the other one so I have a extra unused one.
If you get into Portland I am about ten minutes across either bridge into Vancouver.
Oh, yeah, $25. Bob (360) 696-1428
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Bob: If Bo (Wobbly) doesn't want it, I'm interested.
Mike
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Speedway has them for $39.99. Good for 1-1/2" to 6-3/8" diameter.
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I am interested in buying the can opener. A PM is on its way.
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Sold!
Not bad when you sell something you forgot you even had......... now if I could just sell my bad breath.............. :roll:
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The idea of putting a Wix on the scavenge side and a good filter on the pressure feed makes sense. The Wix would sieve out the bigger stuff and prevent it from reaching the good filter and clogging it.
Bob, the can opener arrived here. Thanks.
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Wobbly, one piece of advice, it really helps to have a second set of hands unless you have a vice that will hold the filter (or possibly chuck up a filter wrench in the vice) because if you put the tool in the vice the liquid on your feet will be oil, or oil and pee if you are as old as some of us..............
Bob :roll:
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Thanks for playing, everyone!
At the end of the day, I've decided to take Rex's advice, and plumb in a Pall 7400, 3 micron filter, on the return line to the sump tank. I'll have an Oberg in front of that, to check between runs.
No filter on the pressure side, so I'm sure I'll hear about that from my camp.....:-o
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Just remember that Moroso, Barnes and most every Dry Sump manufacturer DO NOT recomend Fine filters BEFORE the scavenge sections, but Do recomend them on the Pressure side Out of the pump to engine.
Most mechanical pumps (oil, fuel, etc.) do not appreciate restrictions of flow coming in.
Moroso recomends (and I run) Moroso inline filters on the scavenge side which are fine enough to keep any particles big enough to hurt the pump.
The clearances in the pump are not like engine bearings, and even if they are slightly scored will not likely be of any concern.
If you plug up the filters on the scavenge side with debris, not only will you lose the engine, but you will most likely get to buy a new dry sump pump too.
On the other hand if you are buying a used pump, keep in mind that if the rotors are "gouged", the aluminum case is probably no good and will need replaced.
This is usually caused by not running "inline coarse type (Moroso)" filters on the scavenge side when catastrophic engine failure occurs.
One more note of caution on buying a used pump: if it does not turn freely by hand when empty (and minus fitting caps), the shaft is most likely bent from being in a crash or dropped on the pulley end.
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If you plug up the filters on the scavenge side with debris, not only will you lose the engine, but you will most likely get to buy a new dry sump pump too.
Bob, if I plug the filter on the pressure side, won't I also lose the engine, and get to buy a new dry sump too? :evil:
Seriously, I may put some filter on the pressure side, mainly to catch the pump particles as it wears in. It's a brand new Barnes, so it should be in good shape.
I'm not saying I'm right and anyone is wrong-I'm just saying I'm going to try it, as it makes sense to me! :-D
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Whether talking about a dry sump oil pump or a fuel pump, the idea is to not restrict its inlet enough to cause it to cavitate. This is aggrivated by high temperature and high altitude. Pressure drop across filters can vary widely and it does no good to ask the supplier for flow data-- you'll get a blank stare at best unless you are talking to the right person at the factory (who is almost impossible to contact). Setting up a test yourself is probably the only way to get any pressure drop vs flow rate data.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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The suction,inlet side of any pump should be of greater size. When I worked at Vickers Inc.( a hydraulic pump & valve Mfg. ) The design engineers always made sure of this on all test stands for pumps. Never starve inlet side. Rule of thumb was suction was usually twice the out put tube size.
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Neil is somewhat correct regarding automotive filters, not much info on pressure drop vs. flow but on industrial filters , such as the Pall HH7400 filter that Buddy is planning to use you can find extensive information on pressure drop vs. flow rate and how it is affected by such things as oil specific gravity. Yes, having a filter between the high pressure pump and the engine does protect the engine and is the recommended setup by many dry sump pump manufactures, in the industrial and aerospace hydraulic world, were we are talking about real pumps at high pressures with exotic fluids, the preferred position for the finest filter is in the line that is returning oil to the system reservoir, the scavenger sections in our case, because this is were all of the crud from the system (engine) is returned to the reservoir. Why have this junk be pumped by the most important section of the scavenger pump package, the engine pressure pump, before it is filtered into the engine. Every time a piece of contamination runs through the high pressure pump and causes damage it makes literally hundreds of additional contamination particles that accelerate wear of both the pump and the engine. Doesn't make much sense to me no matter what the scavenger pump manufactures say.
Rex
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Rex, maybe it is more a question of viscosity of the fluids used than the pressure drop seen thru the filter.
I don't claim to have much knowlege of fluid dynamics but common sense tells me that a pump used for hydraulics or any light viscosity fluid (such as a Enderle or Kinsler fuel pump) certainly has tighter tolerances than a automotive oil pump.
A lot of racers have found out the hard way that mechanical fuel pumps wear especially when using alcohol or Nitromethane fuels which provide no lubrication.
A fuel pump that puts out say 10.2 gpm when new may only put out 8.5 or 9 after a mere handful of runs.
The results are that if you don't stay on top of your tune up you may be buying pistons before long even though you havn't changed a thing. This is especially true in Drag Racing where you are usually running the engine on the lean edge anyway.
In my mind a pump is no different than a piston in a cylinder, where alcohol and nitro leech past the rings much faster than petroleum based fuels like gas or deisel.
I just can't see or should I say have never seen any apparent wear in any wet or dry sump oil pump in a race motor that came from normal use. This may not be true in a Indy motor that runs for several hundred miles but for our use I still feel the best bet are the inline filters which catch most actual visable debris.
Because of the heavier viscosity of engine oils, the pumps are not built to the high tolerences needed in many industrial aplications. Thus the fine particulants that might hurt a Enderle fuel pump shoudn't do much harm to a oil pump.
Given that most race cars have a minimal amount of room to accomodate filters, I would be hesitant to run too fine of a filter on the scavenge side. unless I was using a light weight synthetic oil which doesn't fare well with non petroleum based fuels.
Just my two bits worth....... Bob
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Umm... just a comment from a disinterested party-
The last half dozen comments appear to ignore that Flattie said he's planning two filters in series on the output side of the scavenge pump.
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Jack, if you reread the posts you will notice the concern is not about pressure side filters rather scavenge side filters............. Bob
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The plan I've settled on is a Wix filter on the pressure side, with an oil pressure sending unit, and an Oberg with 60 micron screens on the scavenge side. I'll have the Pall 7400 on the return line, as I really believe on keeping the oil reservoir clean, and not running contaminated oil through the pump.
To be honest, I'm only adding the Wix in case I shell the dry sump-it will keep those parts out of the engine!
Guys, I realize that it's not a 'traditional' style setup. Luckily, we all do things different, and have different ideas, otherwise we would all be running identical cars!
I do appreciate all of the ideas and advise, even if I sometimes stray from conventional wisdom!
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Rex;
Kinematic viscosity is a key spec that is hard to find, that's why I recommended setting up your own test. That way you are getting data on the filter with the fluid that it will actually be used with. Don't forget that it is temperature dependent.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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... reread the posts...
I did read them. Can't YOU read?
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Neil,
Pressure drop through a filter is proportional to the specific gravity and the viscosity of the oil. If you know the pressure drop per gpm of flow that the filter is rated and what the viscosity and specific gravity of the fluid that the filter is rated at you can then calculate the new pressure drop with a different oil that has a different viscosity and/or specific gravity. The Pall Corporation, and therefore almost all filter manufactures, rate their filters and housing using 150 SUS viscostiy oil that has a specific gravity of .9. So if you have an oil that has a viscosity of say 200 SUS and a spec. gravity of .85 you take the rated pressure drop and multiply it by 200/150 x .85/.9. Several things certainly need to be considered, most important of which is oil temperature as it has really controls the oil viscosity. Standard 50 wt oil at say 80 deg F has a viscosity of about 2000 SUS! so the pressure drop is increased by 2000/150= 13.3 times! This is a great reason to have an oil tank heater because at 150 deg F the viscosity is down to around 290 SUS and at 200 deg F it is around 100 SUS. So if you don't preheat your oil you should really have a bypass style filter or a 15 to 20 psi check valve around the filter to allow the cold oil to bypass the filter until it is at operating temp. Also if you are putting a low micron filter on the return oil from the scavenger pumps this oil is typically at the highest temp the oil will see as it is just out of the engine, so it is at its minimum viscosity. This is also probably a good reason to consider some of the multi viscosity oils such as a 20-50 wt, which should provide a lower viscosity at low temps. If you do not have an oil reservoir heater then I would think that using multi viscosity oil is a must.
Rex
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Neil, Rex- you both offer up great info!
For the record, Exon-Mobile is sponsoring all our lubrication needs, so we will be running Mobile 1 Racing 0W-50 oil.
The dry sump oil tank that I bought from Tony has a heater that we will be utilizing, so I think this setup will work well.