Landracing Forum
El Mirage => El Mirage General Chat => Topic started by: NathanStewart on February 14, 2012, 03:52:11 PM
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Thought I'd start a discussion regarding the proposed El Mirage Procedures changes that were metioned at the last board meeting. Those proposed changes were:
1. Require that entrant goes straight to impound after qualifying for a record - current procedure says you have 30 minutes to get there, not that you must go straight there.
2. Change the qualifications for season's point champ to one of three options:
- 1. no change - same body but any fuel or motor or induction
- 2. same car, same body, same engine, same fuel, same induction for the entire season
- 3. same car, same entrant, same log book, any body, any engine, any fuel, any induction- basically anything goes so long as it's the same physical car/bike
3. No GPS allowed in view of driver/rider for vehicles going for points champ
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Number 1 is easy and should be done. I understand the idea behind number 3 (reduce sandbagging) but I'm not sure it's as easy to enforce as one might think. Just because you don't have a Tom-Tom or a Garmin glued to your windshield doesn't mean you still don't have GPS in view. Some data loggers have a GPS input and that data can be displayed on a dash like a RacePak or AIM or even through a gauge. And besides, people have been succesfully sand bagging using just a tach (or even a speedometer) long before GPS was ever available to the mass populace. I'd personally say no to number 3 only because it isn't effectively going to do what it's supposed to.
The one that I think will be most hottly contested is number 2. I for one am starting to like option 2 more and more. Same vehicle, same class, same motor, same fuel, same induction. No class jumping if you want to win points champ. I like it because it's different and it might open things up to those that can't run a different body class, motor, fuel, or induction type for whatever reason.
One thing to keep in mind is that nothing is permanent with the EMP. If we did option 2 for a year or two we could always change it back and make it a free for all, class jumpers heaven (option 3) in the future.
Thoughts?
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I like number 2. :-D
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Hmm... thought there'd be more discussion on this.
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Who really needs/wants any of those proposed changes?
Willi
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#2 gives those without deep pockets, or those racing in classes that don't have large numbers of options, a fair shot at the championship or more importantly, a low run #.
Nor does it penalize those who ARE in classes that have dozens of options. They can choose to go for points, or go for records.
People complain that there too many classes. I think the problem is there are too many classes that you can enter the same car/bike in. Gas/fuel/super/AA-J/street/mod/etc/etc/etc.
Today, the way the points are calculated, you don't win by running your car and just tweaking it to go faster, and faster, and faster each event. That's what racing is all about. Optimizing your setup.
Points are won by changing classes, sandbagging, then changing classes again. That lawyering, not racing. Finding loopholes instead of doing your best to improve what you got.
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No.1 is almost impossible to regulate unless the racer is accompanied. But I think those fortunate enough to set a record head straight for impound anyway.
No.2 two I definitely favor. The way things are now More bucks = more engines etc for class changes = more points. No. 2 brings it back to what the SCTA is about. Grassroots racing.
No.3 is the way it is right now isn't it?
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GPS:
GPS is handy for licensing and other issues for some entries. At Bonneville 2008, I was told I would be sent home with no record if I broke 175.000 mph. Knowing that I was actually going 181mph saved the day for a very expensive trip with a $150 gadget. I lifted too much, but that was better than throwing everything away by not knowing my speed. At 3000 rpm (assuming your tires don't grow, there is no slip on treaded tires, and you've calculated all ratios to x.xxx), six MPH is 100 rpm.
Sandbagging for points is akin to bracket racing or Enduro competition. Not my cup of tea. But when rules require me to sandbag, I will use whatever device is legal to do it. Remove GPS, and I will track front wheel RPM via the anti-lock data. But that's just more wiring and one more thing to go wrong.
And since nearly all cellphones can do GPS today, the only way to catch a GPSr, would be when somebody drops their cellphone while racing. How likely is THAT??? :evil:
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No.1 is almost impossible to regulate unless the racer is accompanied. But I think those fortunate enough to set a record head straight for impound anyway.
May not be easy to regulate actively but it effectively closes the gap. This way they MUST go straight to impound and there is no longer the defensive of "Well the EMP says I have 30 minutes to get there, not that I must go straight there". I think the idea is to fix the possible problem before it becomes one.
No.3 is the way it is right now isn't it?
There is currently no restriction on GPS usage.
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No.1 is almost impossible to regulate unless the racer is accompanied. But I think those fortunate enough to set a record head straight for impound anyway.
May not be easy to regulate actively but it effectively closes the gap. This way they MUST go straight to impound and there is no longer the defensive of "Well the EMP says I have 30 minutes to get there, not that I must go straight there". I think the idea is to fix the possible problem before it becomes one.
No.3 is the way it is right now isn't it?
I've had the gods smile on me a couple of times at El Mirage and when I heard I broken a record my first thought was to get to impound before the gods change their mind. But maybe I'm a bit naive. Maybe it is one of those things that should be fixed before it breaks.
I'm not under any illusion that my sidecar could win no.1 in the bikes. I just enjoy seeing if I can get it to go fast. As the rules stand with the junk I have in the garage I have eight sidecar class possibilities (500, gas, fuel, blown and unblown 650, gas, fuel, blown and unblown). But I still think one class, one fuel is the way to go for the championship.
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Just to play devils advocate here... :evil:
1. Entrant to go straight to impound - no brainer. Just requires policing or the old honesty system
2. So... are you requiring the exactly same engine all season? Cause if your beef is $$, someone could spend lots of $$ to repair engines in a tight timeframe - if they were really serious. Restricting the engine classes just promotes sandbagging - which was the point of No. 3!?
To be in the running you need:
1. A competitive vehicle in whatever class.
2. The ability to break a record every meet - it might be just by a little, can be on same record
3. Consistently reliable vehicle
4. Ability to do a clean run, first pass, every meet. (seldom get a 2nd crack at it)
5. Really good luck.
6. Really bad luck for your opposition - What it seems to come down to is who makes the first mistake.
3. No GPS allowed in view of driver/rider for vehicles going for points champ -
Personally speaking here - El Mirage is so short, that I don't have the time to look at and read (yes they are different), a GPS. Too much going on. I get told if I'm at 9600 and in 6th gear by the time I go through the lights, I should be ok. Depending on what drama is happening that day (fire / spin / dust / messing up gear shift etc), I don't always know what the tach is either. Everyone is different. I don't have a dog in this fight.
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I think the proposal means the same class engine. Not the SAME engine. 1-6 applies right now. Nothing new in those.
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Sandbagging - Yeah, I hate it, too, but it's akin to a sac fly or a bunt.
It's good management.
Not much fun to watch . . .
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I like number 2- same car, same body, same engine, same fuel, same induction for the entire season
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I can't take credit for realizing this on my own but it was pointed out to me that the one good thing about class jumping (especially on classes with soft or no records) is that the record list actually gets filled up with real records. There are a lot of classes with little or no participation and savvy (or possibly cunning) racers might realize this and exploit these opportunities to put their race vehicle on the front cover of the rule book. Side thought - would anyone actually really want to run a motorcycle sidecar if it wasn't for the chance at being points champ? Okay, anyways, the more the record list gets filled up with real records the more "real" racing can go on and not "lawyering" like was mentioned before. It'll only be a matter of time before these "opportunities" turn into real records that might actually stand for a period of time. Even the fastest guy reaches his limit at some point and it won't be until a new fastest guy (or gal) comes along and betters the last fastest.... er, person.
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Nathan --
You gotta realize that there are a few "real" sidecars running -- they're not all just wheel on a sticks.
Stan
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All the more reason to quit adding classes too...... Shoot, thats the other thread :evil:
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Had our annual Milers meeting today. Our club voted as follows:
1. Yes
2. Option 2 (same body class, same engine class, same fuel class, same induction class all season for points champ)
3. No
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I am a fan of El M---but most of your higher hp cars, most years, will not be able to race for points champ, with the same combo, due to the ever changing racing surface.
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Side thought - would anyone actually really want to run a motorcycle sidecar if it wasn't for the chance at being points champ?
Geez Nathan, that's cutting right to the bone. But the answer from me is no I didn't build my sidecar with the points championship being the only reason for building it. I had an idea and wanted to see how fast I could get it to run.
But I think your question should be why would anyone want to run a GPS if it wasn't for the chance at being points champ? Why do you need a GPS if for no other reason than to sandbag? Why do you hear a driver being told to run no more than X rpm if not to sandbag? After one record I ran a fellow club member asked me if I "left anything"? I replied I hope not.
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I know it's only Time Trials, but you sound like a racer.
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Racer? Like that's gonna happen.
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Side thought - would anyone actually really want to run a motorcycle sidecar if it wasn't for the chance at being points champ?
Geez Nathan, that's cutting right to the bone. But the answer from me is no I didn't build my sidecar with the points championship being the only reason for building it. I had an idea and wanted to see how fast I could get it to run.
But I think your question should be why would anyone want to run a GPS if it wasn't for the chance at being points champ? Why do you need a GPS if for no other reason than to sandbag? Why do you hear a driver being told to run no more than X rpm if not to sandbag? After one record I ran a fellow club member asked me if I "left anything"? I replied I hope not.
Ha, yeah that was just a poke for all the bikes with wheel-on-a-stick-sidecars. No harm meant. Just being facetious.
GPS can actually be a very useful tuning tool. Combined with a data logger you have the ability to go back through your run and see the details of how it progressed. What's your speed at half track? Are you still accelerating at the lights? What was your speed when the car finally settled down and went straight? I think people may try to "drive by GPS" but at El Mirage than can be pretty hard for a number of reasons.
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GPS can actually be a very useful tuning tool. Combined with a data logger you have the ability to go back through your run and see the details of how it progressed. What's your speed at half track? Are you still accelerating at the lights? What was your speed when the car finally settled down and went straight? I think people may try to "drive by GPS" but at El Mirage than can be pretty hard for a number of reasons.
So does that mean the Points waltz continues?
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SCTA board meeting is tomorrow. Guess we'll see how this turns out then.
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The number of ways that you can determine speed is endless. The dead easy answer is the GPS taped to your forehead. Eliminate that and other methods pop up.
It wouldn't take much to write an app to pull the gps data from a phone and feed it through bluetooth to an ear bud.
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I am a fan of El M---but most of your higher hp cars, most years, will not be able to race for points champ, with the same combo, due to the ever changing racing surface.
give 50 extra points for any record over 200mph :evil:
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rule #2 has been a long time coming, I hope it passes.
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I had the chance to talk to some other SCTA members that aren't in my club and they said that they voted no on option 2. I asked why and they said because it was too confusing so they decided to leave things as they are. I thought this was kind of a strange comment considering that option 2 is pretty straight forward IMHO. So I gave them my run down of what option 2 entails and they said "wow, that makes sense... we would have voted yes if we knew it was that simple". In fact they were very in favor of option 2 once they understood it because they run a car that can really only compete in one class.
They said the way option 2 was explained to them during their club meeting wasn't very clear so they voted against it. Bummer. :|
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Sounds like a rep problem. Not listening or don't care.
DW
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Nathan --
You gotta realize that there are a few "real" sidecars running -- they're not all just wheel on a sticks.
Stan
And I always look forward to seeing who will be riding Kenny Lyons sidecar :-D
G
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Nathan --
You gotta realize that there are a few "real" sidecars running -- they're not all just wheel on a sticks.
Stan
And I always look forward to seeing who will be riding Kenny Lyons sidecar :-D
G
Some poor girl that He may propose to on the way home or keep their racing gear...weirdo and a perv for sure...sick bastard!
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That's a little harsh there John. I know a couple of the girls that have driven (ridden?) for him and they've never had anything bad to say about him other than having a strange penchant for Honda Goldwings.
Now back on topic, the only change to the EMP is that you must go directly to impound after qualifying for a record. Points champ qualifications are the same as before - same body class but any engine/fuel/induction class.
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Nathan,
if you knew what happened firsthand you would not let him near younger ladies...rant over...
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...some poor girl... knew what happened first hand... weirdo... perv... sick bastard...
John, you didn't happen to ride for Kenny early on in your LSR career did you? This story about "some poor girl" isn't about you is it?
Sorry man, you walked right into that one. :evil: :-D
Okay, that's it, no more. I swear.
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...some poor girl... knew what happened first hand... weirdo... perv... sick bastard...
John, you didn't happen to ride for Kenny early on in your LSR career did you? This story about "some poor girl" isn't about you is it?
Sorry man, you walked right into that one. :evil: :-D
Okay, that's it, no more. I swear.
Nathan, I never rode for anyone besides myself and Mike A..you have no clue as to what happened with the lady racer's mentioned...or how sick and perverted he is..let's just be polite and state that you know not of what you write...
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"Wheel-on-a-stick" sidecars started running at El Mo, to get the points.....If I recall there was a "point champ" with a "sidecar" on a 125c.c. M/C.....would have been interesting to see how fast it would have gone with a passenger and/or the "option" 60kg ballast......At least my Hero, John N. had his "sidecar" on a real motorcycle and ran a outstanding 215mph+....I have no doubt with a passenger John's outfit would run well over 200mph......Oh yea, didn't John also get the point championship with his "wheel-on-a-stick"................................
See the evil thing I started back in the late 1970's........Do I feel bad....NO....
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Our sidecar rig had an additional 250 pounds of ballast added plus the 200 pound rider.
Yes Bob you are evil... :cheers:
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...some poor girl... knew what happened first hand... weirdo... perv... sick bastard...
John, you didn't happen to ride for Kenny early on in your LSR career did you? This story about "some poor girl" isn't about you is it?
Sorry man, you walked right into that one. :evil: :-D
Okay, that's it, no more. I swear.
Nathan..Your envy and jealousy shows, anyone that rides a bike 240 mph at El Mirage is not going to call himself a girl
or let some A..hole take his gear. So what are your intensions in the above post, trying to knock John down from Bad A.S top dog and blow yourself up?
JL222
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JL,
he's just bustin my chops..I am cool with it... :cheers:
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Nathan..Your envy and jealousy shows, anyone that rides a bike 240 mph at El Mirage is not going to call himself a girl
or let some A..hole take his gear. So what are your intensions in the above post, trying to knock John down from Bad A.S top dog and blow yourself up?
My intention was to get you all worked up to the point where you'd post some crazy nonsense and make yourself look like a crotchety humorless old bastard. Mission accomplished?
I don't think my joke hurt anyone but you but now that I know that you're John's #1 fan, I'll keep the Noonan jokes to a minimum.
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Way to hijack a thread Gray :-D
G
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If it matters Nate I laughed! :-D :cheers:
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Nathan..Your envy and jealousy shows, anyone that rides a bike 240 mph at El Mirage is not going to call himself a girl
or let some A..hole take his gear. So what are your intensions in the above post, trying to knock John down from Bad A.S top dog and blow yourself up?
My intention was to get you all worked up to the point where you'd post some crazy nonsense and make yourself look like a crotchety humorless old bastard. Mission accomplished?
I don't think my joke hurt anyone but you but now that I know that you're John's #1 fan, I'll keep the Noonan jokes to a minimum.
My intensions were to remind everyone that you still think of your self as the ''ALFA OF THE SCTA'' your own words
and your the one that should have a DNA test.
JL222
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Why don't you get back to EMP changes and drop the other BS. Maybe start a new thread for your petty BS. :roll:
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Why don't you get back to EMP changes and drop the other BS. Maybe start a new thread for your petty BS.
Glen, I posted the final outcome of the proposed EMP changes in post #32 so the thread has run it's intended course. I didn't really feel so great about leaving the thread as it had ended with such a strong public accusation without the accused being able to at least respond or possibly clear up the situation or defend themselves. I've worked with Kenny every year for the past couple years at Speed Week because he always has a new gal riding for him and they go through Rookie Orientation together and I see them on the short course. He's always seemed like a pretty okay guy. It honestly came as a bit of a surprise to hear the accusation saddled against him as it would if it were directed to anyone else I know. I honestly don't know Kenny that well (the same could be said for John Noonan) so it's neither here nor there for things to go one way or another... I just thought it was a bit unfair.
As the creator of this thread, I'm not bothered by the fact that JL wants to post petty BS nonsense in weak attempt to some how make me look bad. I just can't help but find a little bit of humor in his ignorance.
My intensions were to remind everyone that you still think of your self as the ''ALFA OF THE SCTA'' your own words
and your the one that should have a DNA test.
JL, I'm sure you've heard that a picture is worth a thousands words. Well your words are painting a picture that show your true colors.
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Nathan.you wil be taking a long look at your printed word :-o
JL222 Sleep tight