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Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: 38flattie on February 03, 2012, 08:21:51 AM

Title: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: 38flattie on February 03, 2012, 08:21:51 AM
Rich, this is one of those 'out of the box' ideas', that get me into trouble!
 
In my quest to find out how much more HP a centrifugal supercharger is capable of making, over a roots style huffer, I got side tracked!

I started thinking about how I could get the benefits of a supercharger, without losing the HP it takes to run one.
 
Since all a supercharger does is compress air, why not just carry compressed air on the car, and use it for boost? Obviously, it's not that simple, because of controlling and monitoring the boost, compressing the air, etc. but that's another story!
 
If 14lbs boost could be achieved from compressed air, the HP gain would be staggering. I approached Woody with the idea, and he sent me the attached pic

The car was designed and raced by Art Malone, even though the caption under the car reads: The "Air car" at Don Garlits' Drag Racing Museum. Concerned that he was losing too much power driving the blower, Garlits came up with this ingenious car, which featured a large tank of compressed air which was progressively fed into the engine during a run, instead of a blower.
 
This started a google search, where I found this:
 
Initial testing of various forms of the system was done on three different dragsters and one of Mickey Thompson's Ford Funny Cars, but in all instances, no full quarter-mile runs were attempted. Recently, however, Keane got together with Mickey Thompson and, utilizing Thompson's exotic dyno facility in Long Beach, accomplished an exhaustive testing program. The results were phenomenal. Where a 6-71 blown Boss 429 Ford engine on 20% nitro had produced 1360 horsepower, the same type of engine equipped with the bottled air system in place of the Rootes blower, burning only straight alcohol, produced 2400 horsepower at 6000 rpm! On gasoline, the system made about 1550 horsepower. This success was not easily achieved, as in one week of testing, Thompson reportedly ran 150 gallons of alcohol through the dyno engine.
 
So, long story short, is this a possibility? Can enough air be stored on board, with either bottles, or utilizing the frame, etc., to to run a 366 CID engine, at 14lbs boost, for 3 miles at WOT?
 
If not, why?

 
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: kiwi belly tank on February 03, 2012, 08:42:43 AM
Oh, this should be entertaining! I love this out of the box stuff.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :-D
  It's basically a math question, out of My field.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: ONEBADBUG on February 03, 2012, 10:06:52 AM
You know, the other day I got the wood stove going in the shop by sticking my blow gun in there. Amazing how well that worked! Centuries old technology. All you have to do for the the math is take the CFM of the engine times the time on track. You would want to minimize the time you used "boost", just like nitrous, basically.
What about rules, though?
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: johnneilson on February 03, 2012, 10:08:39 AM
I have a comfortable seat and popcorn with beer, carry on!
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Captthundarr on February 03, 2012, 10:11:06 AM
I'll get the ball rolling on this. 1) no math wize here. 2) had to take my shoes off to count that high.

Engine CFM calcutalion - CFM= CIDxRPMxVE/3456 where CID=366,RPM=6000?, Volumetric Effic.(VE) =80? give a volume of 50,833.33 cuft/min. plus how long (time)to make a run?

Thats a lot of air to pressurize and store. let the corrections begin. :?
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: 38flattie on February 03, 2012, 10:22:35 AM
onebadbug, I know the rules say mechanically driven supercharger, but a guy can always ask! Even if it were not allowed, if it were possible to do, I'd be interested in running time only to see what net gains were.

I'll get the ball rolling on this. 1) no math wize here. 2) had to take my shoes off to count that high.

Engine CFM calcutalion - CFM= CIDxRPMxVE/3456 where CID=366,RPM=6000?, Volumetric Effic.(VE) =80? give a volume of 50,833.33 cuft/min. plus how long (time)to make a run?

Thats a lot of air to pressurize and store. let the corrections begin. :?


Haha! Well, now I know why I haven't seen anyone else ask this question-they thought it out a little more than I did before voicing it! :-D

Still, I wonder how Art Malone got down the track, and why Keane and the Mickey Thompson organization thought the idea was worth exploring?
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on February 03, 2012, 10:35:11 AM
The rules do say you need a mechanically driven supercharger. I heard somebody stuck a heater blower from their truck on a NA vehicle to set a blown record that made that rule show up.

The weight of the air tanks might cancel the benefit. The amount of compressed air you would need is huge. You would also need a huge pressure regulator to provide the correct flow at 14 psi from the 100 psi? 300 psi? 1,000 psi? tanks. Pressurized tanks are going to make the safety guys raise an eyebrow.

On the other hand, if you were to run the blower and supplement with compressed air . . .
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 03, 2012, 10:37:41 AM
Back in the "old days" I knew Bob Keane, it was after he did the "bottled air" project and as I remember he did not use compressed air as you would need to much to make a pass, the system used compressed oxygen which was feed into the engine at a rate that increased the  inlet air oxygen content and increased the amount of fuel they could burn, i.e. more horse power. One of the "unintended consequences" was that as the oxygen was decompressed (adiabatic decompression I think it is called) from the bottle it would drop the temp of the inlet charge down to below zero F! plus the latent heat of the alky and the engines would actually have frost on the heads while making 2000+ hp.

I hope that someone with a more direct knowledge of this project chimes in here as these are memories from probably 30 years ago and can be somewhat hazy. I just don't think that SCTA would let you carry compressed gas bottles that weigh 1-200 lbs strapped into your car. What a potential bomb. Ever seen one with the head knocked off?!!! Awesome and dangerous!

Rex
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: 38flattie on February 03, 2012, 10:48:51 AM
But if it were pointed out the back, imagine the 'boost'!

Seriously though, I thought it might be accepted if they were mounted safely, Now though, I realize it was a pretty hair-brained idea!

Still, I wouldn't mind exploring the idea on a dyno....
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: RansomT on February 03, 2012, 10:56:05 AM
A non math way of doing it would be attach a huge balloon to the exhaust and run the engine for 3 miles WOT, you then can see how much "air" you would need before adding the supercharger. I am going to guess, a WHOLE lot.

The misconception here is boost is equal to flow.  What causes boost is the engine's inability to use the air that is presented or it's restriction.  You can take 366 CID engine, install a supercharger make 600 wHP with 9 psi of boost.  Then remove the head/intake track and properly port them.  When you put the same engine back together it you may only see 7.5 psi of boost but the engine could make 675 wHP. It's the flow that matters not the amount of boost you see.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Jon on February 03, 2012, 11:23:36 AM
Cram more oxygen by using a pressurised storage system sounds familiar.
Wouldn't it be easier to run NO2?
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Interested Observer on February 03, 2012, 11:45:23 AM
Re: Reply #4   --  Correction No. 1 --  Air consumption value is actually 508.33 cfm.

To otherwise address the question:
Assuming 700 hp, 10 hp/lb/min air, and a run duration of 1 minute, the engine would consume about 70 lb of air.  At 28 psia (14 lb boost) air density would be about .15 lb/cu. ft., implying about 470 cu. ft required.  Assuming a 5 cu. ft. tank, initial pressure would have to be about 2600 psi.  In rough terms.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: 38flattie on February 03, 2012, 11:57:39 AM
Re: Reply #4   --  Correction No. 1 --  Air consumption value is actually 508.33 cfm.

To otherwise address the question:
Assuming 700 hp, 10 hp/lb/min air, and a run duration of 1 minute, the engine would consume about 70 lb of air.  At 28 psia (14 lb boost) air density would be about .15 lb/cu. ft., implying about 470 cu. ft required.  Assuming a 5 cu. ft. tank, initial pressure would have to be about 2600 psi.  In rough terms.


I like your math way better than mine! SCBA tanks run in the 3500-4000 PSI range, making this doable!
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Captthundarr on February 03, 2012, 11:57:59 AM
There you go, thats what I meant to say. thanks IO. :-D
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Dynoroom on February 03, 2012, 12:34:41 PM
Like most things, yes it's been tried before.   8-)
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Glen on February 03, 2012, 12:50:31 PM
It also crashed in the pit area at Lions and hit a trailer before stopping. I was about 20 feet away when it launched. Scared everyone around it.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: McRat on February 03, 2012, 01:46:34 PM
Just thinnin'...  If the ratio by weight of gasoline to air is 12.5 for racing, for every gallon of gasoline you consume, that's 75lb of air per gallon.  Boost doesn't come into play.

Now just find out how many gallons you run a pass, and how many pounds of air a bottle holds.

In any case, nitrous is way more effective.

I was thinking of injecting argon into the engine to retard piston erosion.  At high boost levels, I'm eroding and igniting the aluminum pistons.  Argon is supposed to resist aluminum ignition.  Still have the argon bottle and solenoid, I just stopped racing when I was going to start the experiment.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: DallasV on February 03, 2012, 03:29:01 PM
If the idea is to run in the gas class you might as well run nitrous anyway. If you have a compressed air tank, running to the intake, wheather it is air or not your going to have to run in the fuel class. No means to certify air.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on February 03, 2012, 03:51:56 PM
Dallas, you mean that Dan doesn't walk up to the car, open the valve, and take a big hit of the gas that's in there?  I mean, if it's air it's okay, and if it's nitrous -- well, man, yeah, I see it too. . . :-D :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: DallasV on February 03, 2012, 04:05:20 PM
Dallas, you mean that Dan doesn't walk up to the car, open the valve, and take a big hit of the gas that's in there?  I mean, if it's air it's okay, and if it's nitrous -- well, man, yeah, I see it too. . . :-D :-D :-D :-D

I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying he is not certifing anything.  :wink:
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: McRat on February 03, 2012, 04:35:06 PM
...  open the valve, and take a big hit of the gas that's in there?  I mean, if it's air it's okay, and if it's nitrous -- well, man, yeah, I see it too. . . :-D :-D :-D :-D

Perhaps get Demi Moore to do the testing?  Heard she's an expert...

Seriously, no big news here, but race nitrous is adulterated with something nasty to keep you from sniffing it.  Didn't USED to be, and I plead the fifth. :evil:
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: ONEBADBUG on February 03, 2012, 05:41:31 PM
I hope that someone with a more direct knowledge of this project chimes in here as these are memories from probably 30 years ago and can be somewhat hazy. I just don't think that SCTA would let you carry compressed gas bottles that weigh 1-200 lbs strapped into your car. What a potential bomb. Ever seen one with the head knocked off?!!! Awesome and dangerous!

Rex

This is what I was referring to with rules. One thing missed in the calcs so far, I think, is the engine could be sucking in air at the normal rate, and the amount needed is only above and beyond the naturally aspirated requirement. Also, as mentioned, you might as well be shoving in nitrous or some other thing that isn't 80% not combustable. (air)
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: 38flattie on February 03, 2012, 08:18:05 PM
I hope that someone with a more direct knowledge of this project chimes in here as these are memories from probably 30 years ago and can be somewhat hazy. I just don't think that SCTA would let you carry compressed gas bottles that weigh 1-200 lbs strapped into your car. What a potential bomb. Ever seen one with the head knocked off?!!! Awesome and dangerous!

Rex

This is what I was referring to with rules. One thing missed in the calcs so far, I think, is the engine could be sucking in air at the normal rate, and the amount needed is only above and beyond the naturally aspirated requirement. Also, as mentioned, you might as well be shoving in nitrous or some other thing that isn't 80% not combustable. (air)


....except then we're talking about a 'fuel' powered engine. I'm simply trying to gain boost, by adding previously compressed air, instead of using a supercharger to compress it.

...Or, I could sniff the nitrous, and simply THINK I had accomplished it! :-D
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: kiwi belly tank on February 03, 2012, 09:09:18 PM
 :cheers: :-D
  Sid.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Jack Gifford on February 04, 2012, 12:58:47 AM
Like most things, yes it's been tried before...
That looks like an actual "air powered" car, as I saw demonstrated at an NHRA Indy Nationals in about 1962. It didn't have an internal combustion engine, just an "air motor" (turbine?) that drove the wheels.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: 38flattie on February 04, 2012, 07:23:20 AM
If the idea is to run in the gas class you might as well run nitrous anyway. If you have a compressed air tank, running to the intake, wheather it is air or not your going to have to run in the fuel class. No means to certify air.

Dallas, I agree it would have to be a fuel class, if any class at all. Based on past 'rulings' it's doubtful that I'd be allowed to run in a class, as the compressed air for supercharging, I'm told, has been deemed a no-no.

Still, it would be worth it to run time only, just to see the HP gains possible, from not losing the parasitic losses.

As for the compressed bottles not being allowed, or not passing tech, precedent has already been set, when they allowed the French liner, and possibly others, to run. In addition to bottles, I think a specially constructed frame, certified and tested to 5000 PSI would be an air storage benefit.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: McRat on February 04, 2012, 10:36:48 AM
Should be able to test gases easily and cheaply.

Take a container (large plastic clear tube preferred) and a fireplace match.

Open the valve into the container.

Stick match into the container. 

Match gets brighter, either oxidant or fuel is present.  If they use hydrogen, it will make a small pop, and get sent home.

No need to hire Demi Moore...

There are intercooler systems that are used that pump CO2 on the outside of the intercooler to get better charge cooling.  I wouldn't consider that cheating, any more than an ice bath intercooler.  But the lack of testing on compressed gases makes it no-no.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: John Burk on February 04, 2012, 04:59:34 PM
An ice water inlet air cooler on a NA engine would be like bringing World Finals air to Speedweek . A 6% + HP gain . Has that been tried ?
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: hotschue on February 04, 2012, 09:06:00 PM
Ice water cooled intercooler, NA on gas....We have been using it on several cars since 2008.....hopefully can document performance this year.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: interested bystander on February 04, 2012, 11:33:40 PM
I'm thinkin' that air cylinder powered car belonged to Dale Grantham who I think was affiliated with AiResearch in Phoenix and I'm sure I saw it make a 7 second run at Fontana. Pretty sure Glen's right about the crash at LIONS (same car).
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: John Burk on February 05, 2012, 03:56:38 AM
I remember the squeal of Grantham's slicks at the the 62 Indy Nationals . His original steel air tanks were terribly heavy . HRM said he later found some lighter magnesium ones .
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: oz on February 05, 2012, 05:41:14 AM
A non math way of doing it would be attach a huge balloon to the exhaust and run the engine for 3 miles WOT, you then can see how much "air" you would need before adding the supercharger. I am going to guess, a WHOLE lot.

The misconception here is boost is equal to flow.  What causes boost is the engine's inability to use the air that is presented or it's restriction.  You can take 366 CID engine, install a supercharger make 600 wHP with 9 psi of boost.  Then remove the head/intake track and properly port them.  When you put the same engine back together it you may only see 7.5 psi of boost but the engine could make 675 wHP. It's the flow that matters not the amount of boost you see.

I think more than one balloon may be nescasary I would suggest the long thin ones as round ones would cause more drag (the engine would have to work harder  to overcome the drag making the test inacurate) plus the kids could have fun making toxic animals with the then over inflated test equipment.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Ron Gibson on February 05, 2012, 11:13:58 AM
  IIRC   One of the mags ran an article on Mickey's. The engine started and ran NA with a barn door flap that closed with boost. They had trouble with boost pressure regulation. As soon as the boost hit, it would blow the tires off. Maybe new tech regulators might work.

  I think the Doll-Fox-Christophersen Camero ran inter-cooled NA. They did very well setting numerous records.

Ron
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: 38flattie on February 05, 2012, 06:09:43 PM
I sent an email off, to the 'powers that be', to see if it will be allowed. Here is what I sent.

I have looked up the definition of supercharged in the rulebook, and it specifies "an artificially aspirated engine with a mechanically driven supercharger".

On my future project, I wish to 'supercharge', or add 14 PSI boost, with previously compressed air. I wish to run in a modified ALT or Comp Coupe class.

I find nothing in the rule book allowing it, nor prohibiting it, save the wording in 4.FF.

Is there a category/class that I could run this in, or would the car be deemed time only, after passing tech?

Would this be a 'gas' class, or 'fuel',because of the difficulty of certifying the compressed air?


I'm not real hopeful, but we'll see!
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: dw230 on February 06, 2012, 01:44:57 PM
"I find nothing in the rule book allowing it, nor prohibiting it, save the wording in 4.FF."

I think you answered your own question.

DW

Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: jacksoni on February 06, 2012, 06:20:03 PM
I sent an email off, to the 'powers that be', to see if it will be allowed. Here is what I sent.

I have looked up the definition of supercharged in the rulebook, and it specifies "an artificially aspirated engine with a mechanically driven supercharger".

On my future project, I wish to 'supercharge', or add 14 PSI boost, with previously compressed air. I wish to run in a modified ALT or Comp Coupe class.

I find nothing in the rule book allowing it, nor prohibiting it, save the wording in 4.FF.

Is there a category/class that I could run this in, or would the car be deemed time only, after passing tech?

Would this be a 'gas' class, or 'fuel',because of the difficulty of certifying the compressed air?


I'm not real hopeful, but we'll see!

But does the "mechanically driven supercharger" need to be connected to anything? The power consumption is mostly though not totally due to compressing the air. Run the blower to the air vents you put in and add your tanks.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: dw230 on February 07, 2012, 12:40:23 AM
Do we really have to add more words to make this any clearer? Please!

I coined the phrase "same rules, more words" for this very situation.

I must be too old for this.

DW
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: 38flattie on February 07, 2012, 05:48:04 AM
Naw, Dan, you're fine-there already is more- I just didn't type it all, as I was simply using it as a reference.

"an artificially aspirated engine with a mechanically driven supercharger and/or exhaust-driven turbocharger powered by the primary engine. The supercharger or turbocharger must pressurize the intake above atmospheric pressure."

There is a little more, but this is the 'meat'.



Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: jacksoni on February 07, 2012, 07:53:22 AM
Aw Dan, just funnin' with ya! :-P
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Buickguy3 on February 07, 2012, 10:09:51 AM
   Well, Here comes that "Infamous spirit of the rules" again. I think that you'll find that the previously compressed air was done with an outside power source hence it would be considered as a second engine and probably only allowed for time only, since the power source couldn't be quantitatively sized for classification, I doubt it could even run in special construction. I could be wrong, but I'll bet the "Spirit" will come into play here.
    Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on February 07, 2012, 10:20:15 AM
Instead of compressed air why not run oxygen. It isn't specifically allowed or prohibited either.

Quote
Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!

Stupid isn't the category. Thinking outside the box is a well established way to gain on your competitors.

In most forms of racing specific rules would prohibit out of the box thinking. NASCAR has VERY specific rules. Teams find ways around them.

SCTA doesn't need all that jargon. The good old boy network kicks in and decides if it fits with the good old boy way of thinking. Rules? We don't need no stinking rules!

That's why you better get it in writing before you do anything. Or hide it well enough that no one can find it.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: hotrod on February 07, 2012, 10:32:11 AM
It would be a form of stored energy, just like putting a battery or a second engine in the vehicle making the displacement classes meaningless.
(ie you would be doing your air compression with "free energy" that was stored before the run.

There is an international unit of energy used to measure the energy contained in compressed air called the "liter atmospere"
One liter atmosphere would be a volume of one liter of air compressed to one atmosphere of pressure (ie 14.7 psi)



http://www.convertunits.com/from/liter+atmosphere/to/gallon+%5BU.S.%5D+of+automotive+gasoline

How many liter atmosphere in 1 gallon [U.S.] of automotive gasoline? The answer is 1300370.09623.
We assume you are converting between liter atmosphere and gallon [U.S.] of automotive gasoline.
You can view more details on each measurement unit:
liter atmosphere or gallon [U.S.] of automotive gasoline
The SI derived unit for energy is the joule.
1 joule is equal to 0.00986923266716 liter atmosphere, or 7.58955676988E-9 gallon [U.S.] of automotive gasoline.
Note that rounding errors may occur, so always check the results.
Use this page to learn how to convert between liter atmosphere and gallons [U.S.] of automotive gasoline.
Type in your own numbers in the form to convert the units!

Larry

Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: jacksoni on February 07, 2012, 10:32:20 AM
All racing/rules issues aside, people have tried running or just adding pure O2 to the intake. I believe it has been found to be extremely difficult to control and has mostly contributed a lot of molten pistons to the scrap heap. N2O  of course basically does the same thing but with the buffer of the N2 becomes much more controllable as we all know. Using compressed air as a "supercharging" substitute almost certainly could be done, just a matter of the steady control of the "boost" and engineering of the supply. Whether worth the effort, time and money etc different question. To steal a tag line from another racer: "Impossible? Nah...just needs more development time" applies to all these things.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: McRat on February 07, 2012, 11:45:29 AM
Compressed oxygen is extremely dangerous.  Even if you could get it to work without igniting the flammable metals like aluminum, etc, any exposure to oils or fuels prior to the combustion chamber could cause an explosion.

Nitrous was developed as a "safer" oxygen during WWII for high altitude supercharged aircraft.  Engineers could not get oxygen safe enough to use it for anything but cabin air assist.

I was working in a VW shop in the 70's.  The solvent tank for head cleaning got plugged up.  I tried to clear it with compressed air.  No luck.  "Johnny" our welder told me he could fix it.  He took it around the corner to the weld area.  A few seconds later...  BLAMMMMM!!!!  A bright flash of light lit up the shop.  The pump hit the ceiling (ex-aircraft hanger, so 20' tall roof), and came back down.  Johnny came back around the corner looking like a cartoon character.  His shop coat was shredded, his face was black, the hair on his face was singed off, his hair was blown back and singed as well.

He had tried to clear it with the oxygen bottle from the torch.  He was not seriously injured, but we hung is shop coat on the wall as a trophy.

Ironically, it fixed the solvent pump...
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: jacksoni on February 07, 2012, 12:30:50 PM
Compressed oxygen is extremely dangerous.  Even if you could get it to work without igniting the flammable metals like aluminum, etc, any exposure to oils or fuels prior to the combustion chamber could cause an explosion.

Nitrous was developed as a "safer" oxygen during WWII for high altitude supercharged aircraft.  Engineers could not get oxygen safe enough to use it for anything but cabin air assist.

I was working in a VW shop in the 70's.  The solvent tank for head cleaning got plugged up.  I tried to clear it with compressed air.  No luck.  "Johnny" our welder told me he could fix it.  He took it around the corner to the weld area.  A few seconds later...  BLAMMMMM!!!!  A bright flash of light lit up the shop.  The pump hit the ceiling (ex-aircraft hanger, so 20' tall roof), and came back down.  Johnny came back around the corner looking like a cartoon character.  His shop coat was shredded, his face was black, the hair on his face was singed off, his hair was blown back and singed as well.

He had tried to clear it with the oxygen bottle from the torch.  He was not seriously injured, but we hung is shop coat on the wall as a trophy.

Ironically, it fixed the solvent pump...
[/quote
Well, still needs a heat source ( spark or something) to light it off, is just a lot easier with pure O2 hanging about. An Acetylene torch doesn't light itself.  :roll: But point well taken.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Tman on February 07, 2012, 12:47:59 PM
Barney Navarro metal sprayed the inside of his engine...................with a Stromberg, while playing with oxygen :-o "vaporized" was his exact word for it :wink:
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: hotrod on February 07, 2012, 12:50:49 PM
High pressure pure oxygen and a combustible hydrocarbon do not need an ignition source the reaction is self initiated, and potentially explosive as related in the story. The oxygen begins to oxidize the hydrocarbon and the heat of oxidation sustains the reaction -- true case of spontaneous combustion.

In oxygen compressors they must be absolutely oil free, if the piston tops are contaminated by even an oily finger print it will ignite and then burn the aluminum of the piston crown.

Larry
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: jacksoni on February 07, 2012, 01:09:09 PM
High pressure pure oxygen and a combustible hydrocarbon do not need an ignition source the reaction is self initiated, and potentially explosive as related in the story. The oxygen begins to oxidize the hydrocarbon and the heat of oxidation sustains the reaction -- true case of spontaneous combustion.

In oxygen compressors they must be absolutely oil free, if the piston tops are contaminated by even an oily finger print it will ignite and then burn the aluminum of the piston crown.

Larry
[/quote
But Larry, generally is said combustion needs heat, O2, and fuel. In your compressor example, I will buy it as the oxygen is being compressed and therefore, heated. Some chemical reactions of course produce heat. Just mixing O2 and a hydrocarbon wouldn't do that usually would it? What is the heat source of only high pressure O2 and the fuel. Not questioning your statement, just trying to understand the chemistry. If you mixed the O2 and the hydrocarbon at low pressure, and then, raised the pressure but did it in a way to not heat it,(slowly allowing the heat to dissapate) would it spontaneously combust?  Again my example of a cutting torch. I can see someone with a hose cleaning the tank making sparks somehow as McRat related.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: McRat on February 07, 2012, 01:50:07 PM
Jacksoni:

There was no spark.  The compressed oxygen hit the stoddard's solvent + dirty engine oil, and exploded.  For real.

Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: jacksoni on February 07, 2012, 02:21:33 PM
Jacksoni:

There was no spark.  The compressed oxygen hit the stoddard's solvent + dirty engine oil, and exploded.  For real.


I believe, just trying to understand the chemistry.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: McRat on February 07, 2012, 02:30:36 PM
Oxygen is very powerful oxidizing agent, look at what it does to steel.  Rust is burning steel.  It's just a slow reaction.

The reason the world around us just doesn't ignite, is because our O2 is at low pressure, and heavily diluted.

When you get it pure, and under a lot of pressure can force the issue. 

Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Peter Jack on February 07, 2012, 03:25:27 PM
There's a reason that all oxygen regulators say "Use No Oil". Many people in the welding business can tell stories of oxygen hitting hydrocarbons and causing violent ignition with no known ignition source.

Pete
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: oz on February 07, 2012, 03:43:30 PM
Ok just a thought
My bike is (on a flow bench) is able to flow around 140-160 cfm a minuite per cyl WOT if you wanted to charge at 1 atmosphere on top of that would you not be using around the 280-320 cfm.
If the bottle that it is to be stored in has a specific volume to start with which it will,would it not make sense to assume that if it is compressed in multiples of atmospheric pressure 2-300 bar divided by the cfm the engine uses at WOT would this not give an estimate of run time per bottle.

or have I got it all wrong

our calculations ho hum reckon an internal dimension of around .8ftx.8ftx.8ft@300 bar gives about a min damm wish i was more clued up!!! and so does beck!!!
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: hotrod on February 07, 2012, 07:17:20 PM
To figure total air required:

For the NA engine  ---- ((CID x rpm/2 )/1728) x minutes x VE


CID = cubic inch displacement
rpm/2 because the engine is a 4 cycle and only intakes air on every second down stroke of the piston
1728 = number of cubic inches in a cubic foot
VE = volumetric efficiency of the engine at peak power. For a well designed head and cams with some ram effect taking place this is often 110% or so.

Multiply that by your intended manifold pressure ratio. That would give the a rough approximation of how much air at standard inlet conditions the engine would need to maintain boost. Then just figure out the tank volume you have and find the required pressure to fit it all in the bottle.

That does not account for the fact that the bottle would lose pressure as the pressure blew down, so you would also have to add enough pressure/volume so when you get to the end of the run the bottle would still be over your design manifold pressure.

You would also have to figure out how to regulate a high volume flow of air to that manifold pressure. Most air pressure regulators are only designed to handle maybe 10-30 CFM flow as in a compressed air regulator for a paint gun or sand blaster.

Then you would need to add a safety factor for the pressure drop in the lines due to friction at that flow velocity.

By the time you get done I think you will find you end up with either a very short time at boost or a very big air tank.

You could shrink the tank size a bit by using a flapper valve so the engine could start and run on atmospheric air, but only when the compressed air is flowing it would force this valve closed, allowing you to pressurize the manifold.

All that of course only useful for a time only attempt but might be useful experiment for a very small displacement engine like a 50cc motorcycle.

Larry
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: zenndog on February 14, 2012, 03:07:55 AM
This thread and the talk about the volatile nature of oxygen reminded me about this story about PEPCON were an oxygenated solid rocket fuel plant exploded. It was a very interesting set of poor decisions that led to one huge disaster. I saw an interview with one of the firemen and he said they got the alarm and were racing to the address when the shock wave hit them on the road and they just pulled over, realizing that they needed to find out exactly what was going on before proceeding. Another part of the story covered safety training at the factory, what to do in case of fire....run away as fast as you can.
Title: Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on February 14, 2012, 10:39:29 AM
The conversation about oxygen use in an engine is making assumptions about using large amounts of pure oxygen.
Even small percentages would increase oxygen content in the cylinder without the dire consequences noted.
Nitrous oxide is the better choice, but that puts you in the fuel class.
In the gas class compressed air or oxygen would absolutely develop more power.
Compressed air is a trade off to reduce drag from the supercharger. It can't put more oxygen into the system than the supercharger. Compressed oxygen would put in more oxygen and develop more power.

But you can expect the same development curve as the Jim Hall Chaparral Can-Am cars. Nope, not the super sucker.
Prior to that the 2C and 2E were the first car with really effective tall wings. In-car adjustable angle with the wings attached directly to the rear hubs.
The wing was adjustable from a foot pedal in the cockpit. That's right, no clutch pedal because it ran an automatic.

When the wings were outlawed the 2J super sucker was developed. Brilliant design to use atmospheric pressure to create traction. Way before its time.  The first race showed the true potential when it qualified 2 seconds faster than the competition. The car ran for one year and then was banned.

The rules do state that you have to have an engine driven supercharger/turbo, but don't specifically rule out compressed air/oxygen. But it won't be allowed.