Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: OldStude on January 25, 2012, 07:49:08 AM
-
I've read on this forum that in CGC you need either a funny car cage or containment seat. I've got a 2011 SCTA rules book and it doesn't specifically mention that. I've built cars by rule books to race all over the world and studied the book and built the car to the letter of the law and never had a problem at tech. I assume if I build the cage to the letter of the rules book and install the aluminum seat per the rules book that I'll have no trouble at tech? Tech isn't a subjective evaluation, is it?
-
Tech isn't a subjective evaluation, is it?
Not anymore, see new rule 1.A Technical Inspection. Tony
-
I agree, there is now a statement that makes inspection totally objective, and that is a good thing.
But, you may not want to build strictly by the book, in that the requirements are minimum requirements for the class.
For your continued safety as you go faster and faster, building considerably more stout than required is a great idea. Particularly in the cage area, where diameter of tubing called for can be increased for a huge increase in strength. Don't hesitate to use 1 3/4" tube and build as stout as you can.
You don't mention where you are and if you plan on running on the salt or exclusively concrete events, but a slightly different approach might be in order depending on how fast you are capable of going.
Don't hesitate to over build. Study the cars that are going well over 200 successfully and build accordingly.
There is a HUGE difference between speeds around 200MPH and 220 in the mile and 5 mile . Aerodynamics play some evil tricks.
Tires are also an important choice, and there are many opinions as you will see.
That is what is so special about our sport. At Speedweek, you see 400 different approaches to the same engineering problems. Some work well, some don't.
Good luck with your efforts
-
I like the "new" rule also and tried to be like that when I inspected for many years. If I were redoing my coupe I would look to a style like a NHRA Prostock and have it meet the sizing and thickness spelled out in our book. I would also look to a "Lajoie" style seat to put in it. Maybe without the Nascar head sides and use the side roll cage of the Prostock for the head support. You just can't be to safe.
Look at Danny Thompsons flip in the Mustang and then make your own decision.......Good Luck. JD
-
I'm in the building stages for my H/DT right now. I should be starting in on the cage in the next month or so, working on it in my "spare" time, as if any of us has spare time. I want to make sure that I understand the rules clearly, so that I only have to do this job once. The issue of full containment seats and/or Funny Car or Pro-Stock style cages is a bit confusing.
The existing record in this class is just over 105 mph. Obviously, I want to be safe, but at the same time, do not want the added expense required to meet all of the rules for a 200 mph class. I will be using 1-5/8" x 0.134 tubing for the cage.
I have a 2011 rulebook in front of me. Rule 3.A.3, page 24 addresses the Driver's Helmet Support. I am seeing a lot of use of the "Full Containment Seat", but I'm still not sure if such a seat is rigid enough to meet the requirements set out in 3.A.3.
I currently have a Kirkey "Economy" seat that is a loaner from a friend for mock-up purposes. He will let me keep the seat if I can use it. If permissible, I would like to use this seat, in conjunction with a "Pro Stock", or "Funny Car" style roll cage (not sure if there is really a difference, or if this is just different terminology), with a structure that would meet the 2" per side limits as set in 3.A.3.
Does this seem like a legitimate approach? (Kirkey economy seat, placed inside a Pro-Stock or Funny Car cage), with whatever kind of restraints will be necessary to meet the 2" per side rule.
Steve.
-
I'd call Kirkey because I think you'll find that even they aren't really big on that seat. It's built for a very specific market of rather slow cars. If you're approaching 100 mph you're well beyond what the seat is designed for in the event of a crash. I'd be looking for something more substantial no matter what cage you're planning on using.
Pete
-
My advice if your going on the salt. Build it stout. And build it to go faster than you originally think you are going to go.
Below are two photos of the way I updated my car for 2011 with additional bars and full length left side head restraint. I had no issues in tech.
After my first year at Bonneville just cracking 200 on a 234 record, I realized I did not have the protection I needed. We are not even close to the record but the differnece in running 5 miles on the salt and those 1 mile runways is huge. We threw a driveshaft out at 191 and it ripped the floor to shreads. The spinning shaft almost cut my lap belt in two at the mount.
So this year a third update with two additional vertical supports at the left and right "A" pillar like Danny Thompson's car mentioned earlier in the thread. Also a Dale Earnhardt bar in the center windsheild that ties back to my fron down bars. In addition we cut the stock floor out and added 1 3/4 .120 DOM floor cage then fitted the floor with .125 plate. My point is all the attention typically goes to the cage but don't over look the floor. The drive shaft loop did its job but the shaft broke at the back and beat the floor to death until the car stopped. Go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUiM1-DfKYY&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUiM1-DfKYY&feature=youtu.be) If you want to see for yourself.
Good luck with your build
Bill
-
Bill:
Looks good and safe from here. What seat is that? I'm just trying to understand what is and what is not permitted by the rules.
Steve.
-
Steve, it is a Kirkey series 53 full containment http://www.kirkeyracing.com/index.php?link=browse&code=Series53 (http://www.kirkeyracing.com/index.php?link=browse&code=Series53). It ain't cheap but seats, fire systems, fire suits and cages in my opinion are not the place to save a buck. Theses seats are on sale at some of the NASCAR surplus sales from time to time. The neat thing is sometimes you can get a bargain on the seat and only have to change the head section to get the left side head support. Or you can build head containment into your cage. Just make sure you can get out without getting hung up. We tack welded my bars in, then installed the seat which in my car is a pain, it only goes in in pieces and you have to bolt it all together in the car. It takes time but worth the effort to know it functions properly.
In tech they were very particular about the left side door net. Make sure you have one made that completely fills the cage opening. Mine passed but Bill Taylor showed me a way to improve it. I have to have the net re-certified next year so I will incorporate Bill's suggestion. Also, just email the guys at SCTA. They have forgotten more than most of us will ever know about land speed racing. I have found them to be very helpful.
Good luck and show us some pictures.
Bill
-
Thanks for the info. I have a build thread for my project, but it's not very far along yet.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,10625.0.html
I'm still working on welding in fresh steel where the factory subframe rails and floor were rusted away. That doesn't stop me from having thoughts of each and every part of the car running through my head, though. After the subframe work is done, then it's on to the floor boards, adding some 1/8" sheet to the floor and rocker areas, then starting in on the cage.
Steve.
-
The drive shaft loop did its job but the shaft broke at the back and beat the floor to death until the car stopped. Go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUiM1-DfKYY&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUiM1-DfKYY&feature=youtu.be) If you want to see for yourself.
Good luck with your build
Bill
Whoa, even though I knew it was coming it still gave me a start, you didn't even swear, well not loud enough to hear anyway, good job getting it back together and all.
-
Doc.
No, just was not sure so I pulled both fire bottles and got the chute out. I pulled to the left because in the car I could not tell if it was the drive shaft or if I left my crankshaft out at mile 2! The swearing started when the first replacement drive shaft I had built in Salt Lake City was an inch too short. Second trip to SLC for a new driveshaft.
Bill
-
Steve,
Page 2 of the build diaries look at this thread by Jeff. 1973 camaro AA/CGC He is building a AA/CGC on a mid-250-260 record. Jeff's is one stout 1973 Camaro. Since I have a '73 I took a lot of ideas from Jeff's car and incorporated it into mine. Once you are in the thread pages 12 and 13 have some cage shots. Jeffs a great guy and helped me a lot with my car.
Bill
-
I just went thru this with Kirkey. I was looking at the (really) Cheap, 70/71 Series Containment seat. I called Kirkey to find out the difference, and their tech (Kevin?) suggested their 45 series seat for a LSR application which I bought. Gonna need a shoehorn to get it into the Mitsubishi. I looked at a Used LaJoie, they are extremely proud of their work as evidenced by the price. There is safe, and then there is corporate subsidized Inflated Racing Equipment (IMHO)
-
The drive shaft loop did its job but the shaft broke at the back and beat the floor to death until the car stopped. Go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUiM1-DfKYY&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUiM1-DfKYY&feature=youtu.be) If you want to see for yourself.
Bill
Wow, that one seemed a little violent.... for the rookies, that is a great candidate for an emergency turn to the tower side....
Although fire bottles shouldn't be used unless you see fire.... expensive lesson...
-
I just went thru this with Kirkey. I was looking at the (really) Cheap, 70/71 Series Containment seat. I called Kirkey to find out the difference, and their tech (Kevin?) suggested their 45 series seat for a LSR application which I bought. Gonna need a shoehorn to get it into the Mitsubishi. I looked at a Used LaJoie, they are extremely proud of their work as evidenced by the price. There is safe, and then there is corporate subsidized Inflated Racing Equipment (IMHO)
Looking at the dimensions of the seats on Kirkey's website, it's still unclear to me whether either the 53 or 45 series seats would meet the 3.A.3 rule for lateral helmet restraint. Can either of these seats provide for a maximum of 2 inches per side movement, "inclusive of structure deflection, and at a minimum extend to the forward most portion of the helmet" when installed in a Funny Car or Pro-Stock type cage? I realize that the side supports would probably have to be lengthened in order to extend past the forward most portion of the helmet.
Steve.
-
Where'd the smoke come from? Or was that the fire suppressant?
Was the hissing after you stopped the fire bottles still going off?
-
Either way you go its expensive. I bought the $200 dollar Kirkey and spent $300 modifying it, but it fits into my comfort and safe zone. Would have been cheaper if I had a welder that does Aluminum, had to farm out that welding.
Steve
-
My first experience with Full restraint seats was in 07 when back with Ford for the Fusion Fuel Cell program. Some difficulty in that the fuel cell tray took up so much room in the floor, that the driver was required to recline 30 degrees.
When I came on board, one of my tasks was to source all the safety equipment (duh). They had already sourced Kirkey, but when I spoke to them they did not make a 30 degree seat, nor were they interested in doing so.
I had some discussions with Butler Built, and they bent over backwards to do exactly what I wanted. We actually limited side movement to +-1.0" to MY helmet. It was with a 7 point harness the most comfortable seat I have been in. (and I recline almost the same as my liner). Should I do another door car I will certainly go back to them.
Really good folks to work with.
-
Steve I understand what you did,,,
My 1933 Vicky has a kirkey Seat that we modified, streghthend and added the ISP Stealth Head and Shoulder Supports to,,, so my $200 Seat ended up at just under $600..
For the Stude, I just decided to go Full Containment from the get go and have a Custom made ISP seat... custom built to me (and using double thick sides and back plates for my weight)..
Charles
-
Article in Circle Track Magazine this month on Butler Built aluminum seats.
-
Stainless:
You are absolutely correct on the fire bottles. $600 plus $100 overnight shipping. But being my first time, I was overly cautious. I have 700 reasons to remember to see fire before pulling handles next time. When it first let go it really sounded like the crankshaft broke so thats why I pulled them. When I got out of the car I looked under the fron expecting to see the oil pan blown appart. Just another expensive racing lesson.
Bill
-
Stan:
The trans broke away from the bell housing and trans fluid came out of the new trans windows on the headers. The picture is one side the drivers side had a big hole. Matt did a great job of tig welding it back together. It took two days to get the fire bottles and drive shaft. We went to 5 junk yards in SLC looking for a Tremec 5 speed. When we could not find one we decided to weld up the one we had. We went out and made four more runs.
Bill
-
When we could not find one we decided to weld up the one we had.
Bill
bill,
where did you get the welding done?
-
Saltwheel:
Matt did the welding of the trans in the hauler. He welded up a lot of stuff for people all Speedweek. The Silver Rod guys brought the press with them. I think they broke a header flange.
The driveshaft I had made at a driveline company in SLC.
I won't bring that big A transporter out again. It was nice but A. its expensive and B. it took 2 months to refurb the trailer to get the salt out of it. 2012 will be my Silverado and an 28' enclosed trailer.
Bill
-
Good thinking about the truck and the trailer. Remember to wash the bottom of the truck when you get home, and to clean the trailer inside and out. We empty the trailer of everything that's not permanently installed and hose down the walls and floor -- a couple of times. Leave things open for a few days to dry - and the trailer will be a lot nicer for the next event. And plan on trading/selling the trailer after five or so years since by then the underparts will be all corroded no matter how carefully you've cleaned it. We're fortunate up here in having a huge amount of snowmobiling, and the riders are used to having nice trailers that they sell cheap after a few years. We buy the used ones - and sell back to them the one that we've used up. the are used to seeing salted undersides (from traveling on our winter roads, all of which are salted to melt the ice).
PS Nancy's shopping for sublimatable beer steins/mugs for you. Remember that the mug will be white porcelain or ceramic -- not clear glass. Can't sublimate onto glass.
-
SSS,
Yes I learned the trailer lesson this year. My next trailer will be a basic, pressure treated wood interior, stainless box and work top. I am going to have the floor and 2' of the wall LinExed. Heavy undercost underneith. I will lay down heavy mil plastic liner before I roll my car in for the ride home.
I rolled my car on a tarp up front in the hauler. When the truck driver loaded Kixmiller's truck he slacked a little and decided not to put the tarp under Kix's truck. When the trailer got back to the shop in Tampa there was an inch of salty gel on the aluminum deck. Up front there was some small crystals but nothing that would not clean up. In the back of the hauler was a mess.
Don't go to too much trouble on the beer mugs. I dont drink much beer anymore either. But I will take a set for my beer drinking guest.
PS. I miss the spell checking function.
Bill
-
I mis da spel chek funion too :evil:
-
Miss those spelling tests from grade school, don't you? Bragging here -- as far as I can remember I got five or six words wrong during my elementary school spelling lessons. That's five or six in all the years. Spelling has always been a pretty easy chore for me.
Bob reads most of what's posted on the Forum - maybe he's got some word on the spell check function and also the "latest posts" listing on the home page.
-
Spelchec, spellcheck, spell check, speelecheckz, woerks on my machine. I believeve you jon, John, Johnn. Juan. But a typo or too has drifted in lately. I no your ah beter spealer then mee, butt you're typeing neads werk.
-
This has been discussed several times on prep and cleanup when you get home. I use SALT-X before on the underside of my truck, when I get home I put a lawn sprinkler under it and let it spray for several hours. I then let it drip dry and then with a good garden hose nozzle I start at one end and wash to the other on the bottom side 2 0r 3 times. The next day I do a clean up wash again and when dry I spray with SALT-X again. It's a lot of work and the same treatment for the trailer. By the way pull the wheels on truck and trailer to clean the rotors etc. The trailer if you have electric brakes requires a little more work as the magnets etc. need a good cleaning and everything sprayed with WD-40 or some protectant. Make sure the drums are dry when you put back on and the bearings greased. Salt-X is available on the their web site and I use a Hudson garde sprayer to apply.
-
Stan, you just made my head hurt....... :| :| :-D
-
A word of caution on the heavy undercoat. It holds the salt water between it and anything consumable. You can't see the damage until it's too late. When I worked for Mercedes Benz, we were notallowed to undercoat the new cars for that reason. They did, however allow us to use a product made by Bilstein that was something like cosmoline type wax. Don't know if that's even available any more with all the EPA crap.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
-
Buickguy3
That's why this forum is so valuable. I get to learn things like this before I make a mistake. The other idea was to paint the undercarage of the trailer with a heavy coat of Pro 15 www.por15.com/POR-15/productinfo/1GB/ (http://www.por15.com/POR-15/productinfo/1GB/). I have used this stuff on salt water boat trailers and it seems to work well.
Bill
-
I guess I should go back and see when this thread went from containment seats to undercoatings. Naaaa! Kiwi Sid and myself were talking about this the other day. I used a rust reformer primer on my undercarage (I copied Bills spelling of the word), then put truck bed liner to it. The liner stuff came off before my first run. I reshot it with the Truck and Tractor enamel you can get at your ranch stores, so far it seems to hold real well and sheds the salt. I heard that the enamel is pretty much the same as POR 15. Except for the price. :wink:
Steve
-
Thanks, you are correct. I will check on the enamal. Now back to containment seats. When I switched head restraints from a short left to the long one. I threw the old one up on eBay and was surprised at all the Kirkey stuff. Plus my seat tip sold in three days for about 70% of what I paid for it. Pretty good by used race part standards. So back to seats, there may be some usable parts for your base on eBay.
Bill
-
A word of caution on the heavy undercoat. It holds the salt water between it and anything consumable. You can't see the damage until it's too late. When I worked for Mercedes Benz, we were notallowed to undercoat the new cars for that reason. They did, however allow us to use a product made by Bilstein that was something like cosmoline type wax. Don't know if that's even available any more with all the EPA crap.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
It is still on the market. Any bodyshop jobber should have some form of BODY CAVITY WAX. We also use the same thing in an aresol to coat the inside of high end steel bicycle frames, it really works.
-
I don't read this site every day so I'm goint to regress a bit.
Don't compare a Funny Car cage with a Pro Stock. Funny Cars are all center steer and really closer to fuelers and our roadsters and some lakesters.
My roadster doesn't have a seat as defined. It's 1/4" steel and aluminum panels bolted a deuzed into a center steer cage...
Just my rag on the subject..................JD