Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA Rules Questions => Topic started by: bsodders on December 19, 2011, 12:31:57 PM
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I would like to use an inert compressed gas to cool my intake during runs for the 130 club. Is this permissable or does it fall into the category of no fuel other than regular gas? It will not be used as a fuel, just as a coolant.
Thank you
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A. Welcome to LR.Com and the Forum
B. The "130 Club" is USFRA and runs Bonneville.
C. This is ECTA and we in 2012 will be running in Ohio.
as to Intake cooling with inert gas, some will read into the rules and say that would put you in a fuel class,, some Will be right, other will be wrong.
To be sure, you should contact the tech folks for the organization you plan to run with.
For ECTA (Ohio) you are in the correct area.
But for the 130 Club that is USFRA, look for the link to them..
Good luck and welcome to the addiction.
Charles
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I assume you are using CO2 or similar with some sort of either intercooler or other system to cool the intake (CryoFuzion?). Anyway, depending on how carefully someone looks (don't see it no issue :-o) or how convinced they are that is truly inert, personally don't see issue. Something not really covered in rules and lots do some sort of intercooling with ice water etc. However, at Bonneville in 89-90 time frame Gary Eaker (Aerodyne and A2 windtunnel) was running a C class firebird and went 298 or so. On Gasoline. Problem was he was running N2O through the intercoolers, not into the engine. They sort of wouldn't quite buy that with the 4 big nitrous bottles in the trunk so he ran Fuel class. Thats the way I heard it anyway.
I have seen suggestion of methanol mixes and dry ice to super cool the intercooler but this would be no no if in the drivers compartment ( no fuel or flammable stuff in the drivers compartment).
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I wouldn't be all that big on having an inert gas in the driver's compartment either. It doesn't process through the lungs the same as oxygen! :roll: :roll: :evil:
Pete
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I apologize for trampling on the wrong forum but I'm a noob, anyhoo.
My idea has been used sort of but it's not on the market in this form so I'm a bit hesitant to discuss in great detail just yet but.... As for the 'inert' part I imagine that CO2 would cause an uproar being a 'greenhouse' gas and all, Nitrous is an Oxidizer so that would be out, same goes for compressed air and straight oxygen. Helium is controlled and more expensive so I think that leaves good ole compressed Nitrogen. Inert, yes, cheap, yep. Asphyxiant, oh yeah but--I will be running a motorcycle so ample ventilation is of no concern.
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On to the techs I suppose...
Thank so far
Brian
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Other than that, Nitrogen is also the largest component of our atmosphere and in liquid form can be seriously cold.
Pete
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130 club at WoS is pretty easy going. I would think you won't have a problem with tech at all. Check the rules at the USFRA website and come out and have fun with us.
:cheers:
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I've thought about this also, and I think liquid Nitrogen is the answer.
It 'absorbs' heat better than most inert liquid gases, and is extremely cold. I think if you could figure out a gravity fed system, rather than a pressured system, it would work well and be inexpensive.
As it can easily be proven as inert, I would think you should be able to get it past tech.
Let us know if you do something like this! :cheers:
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We built an inner cooler and had a small Dewar built to cool the intake charge for our twin turbo setup. Cleared with tech first. Lots of extra stuff involved but it works. Cryo valves, dewar in car and source dewar. We actually used a car heater as the cooler itself but takes a lot of experimenting to get the airflow right.
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Richard, the fact that you used cryo valves leads me to believe this may have used nitrogen?
Can you provide details? Was it a gravity or pressurized system?
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My idea has been used sort of but it's not on the market in this form so I'm a bit hesitant to discuss in great detail just yet but.... As for the 'inert' part I imagine that CO2 would cause an uproar being a 'greenhouse' gas and all, Nitrous is an Oxidizer so that would be out, same goes for compressed air and straight oxygen. Helium is controlled and more expensive so I think that leaves good ole compressed Nitrogen. Inert, yes, cheap, yep. Asphyxiant, oh yeah but--I will be running a motorcycle so ample ventilation is of no concern.
Cryogenic cooling is used in the turbo import community, and can produce small but measurable increases in power. CO2 works as does NOx but they both have issues depending on how they are used.
NOx cryo cooling can "unintentionally" cause both significant power gain and lean out with fatal damage to the engine if the setup allows the "waste" NO2 gas to be ingested by the engines air intake. By the same token CO2 can cooling can unintentionally result in significant power loss if the waste CO2 is allowed to get into the engine's air intake.
You have to cool the intake charge by a significant amount to gain much power and if you cool it too much it can have secondary effects on mixture burn speed and fuel vaporization, and port velocity and flow (colder air has a lower speed of sound so the ports operate at a higher Mach number in really cold air) so it is sort of a mixed bag. Mixture density increase due to temperature drop is only about 1/2 as effective as the same density change due to increased pressure due to those secondary effects.
Larry
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I have definitely considered cryogenics but the space limitation are too great. I would have to have a small liquid canister made just for my bike which would cost several thousand and then have it filled and maintained and recertified periodically, also expensive. The biggest problem with liquid is that it has to maintain a vacuum and it has to vent periodically to relieve pressure. With Co2, gas or liquid, pressure rises dramatically with increase in temperature and that can cause another safety issue. Also Co2 has a tendency to turn into dry ice if vented too quickly, thus freezing the valve and cooling coils. Basically physics has forced my hand yet again, forcing me to use either Nitrogen, or Argon in compressed gas form. Very welcome disussion though, more than I've been able to generate elsewhere.
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You have to cool the intake charge by a significant amount to gain much power and if you cool it too much it can have secondary effects on mixture burn speed and fuel vaporization, and port velocity and flow (colder air has a lower speed of sound so the ports operate at a higher Mach number in really cold air) so it is sort of a mixed bag. Mixture density increase due to temperature drop is only about 1/2 as effective as the same density change due to increased pressure due to those secondary effects.
Larry
Another good reason why Liquid will not be used in this application.
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It was liquid nitrogen in a small Dewar. Just the bottle pressure. There was a separate air intake for the engine so we had no worry about contamination issues. If memory serves me, (sometimes yes, sometimes no), we reduced intake temps by 40-60 degress. That was at 18# boost on gas.
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Richard, I would be real interested in details on that setup! The 6-71 on the flathead will generate some (LOTS!) heat, and I'd like a better solution than the chiller.
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671 on a flathead who would do such a thing? Just kidding been running a 671 blown flathead for a long time now with the proper amount of coolant capacity engine temps are not an issue. Running an intercooler would lower the intake temps a lot and help generate more power as well.
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ronnieroadster, this is a 4.625 stroke, 366 CID Caddy engine, that we will be putting about 14 PSI boost to, and the exhaust exits the top of the engine very close to the intake.
I'm pretty sure intake temp may be an issue-I have a BDS chiller style intercooler, but am looking for an even better way! :-D
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I have been watching your project develop with the Cad flathead I enjoy your back yard Hot Rod solutions and developments as you progress along. The Cad cetainly has a different problem compared to what we Ford flathead guys have to deal with. My experimentation with different ways and locations to inject cooling water into the flathead Ford block has been a slow learning curve.
My thoughts if I was trying to run the flathead Cad I would come up with a water over exhaust system similar to a boat exhaust. Having a dedicated water tank and pump just to pull the heat out of the exhaust. Certainly not an easy build but heck on any project like this whats ever easy?