Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: 55chevr on November 26, 2011, 06:46:55 PM
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I have been kicking around building a new bike for next year. Almost too many options. I was disappointed with the 1350cc Buell S1W engine that I had in the drag bike frame. The bike handles extremely well and the engine runs good. But I just can't produce the mph to be competitive. I couldnt sort out the issues without access to a dyno. Really tough around here finding someone with both a dyno and ability with Harley engines. I wish Dan Dunn at NRHS was closer to Long Island. I took the S1W engine out and I am using it in a 1994 Sportster that I bought a couple of years back as a parts bike. Might race it once next year. I took the 1000cc XB9 Buell engine out of the old sit up race bike, fabricated mounts and installed it in the drag frame. Finished it in time to take to Maxton in October but the 15 mph head wind precluded me from running it. It is complete and ready. So, what to build this winter? Randy Smith sparked my interest with his GSXR600 and it started me thinking about a drag frame "Special Construction" in-line 4. So far I have been able to dig up an '07 ZX10R engine and a Z-1 drag frame. If they fit together reasonably it might be the making of a new bike. Just what I need, another bike.
Joe
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Is the frame rigid or does it have suspension?
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I only have a photo taken with a cell phone that a friend of mine sent me. He found the frame for me in Texas. It is a 70-s Z-1 frame that was back halved into a drag frame. My friend is a welder and he liked the tig welding work on the frame. He said I should plate the neck area which I did on the Chapman frame. It looks like it is raked to 35 degrees which is perfect.
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Sounds like a fun project Joe!
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Okay. Chris G., my friend from Texas, has the frame and is shipping to me tomorrow. He sent me a couple of photos taken with a real camera.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/55chevr/DSC032331.jpg)
It has a VIN and a number stamped from the shop the did the back half
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/55chevr/DSC032301.jpg)
The front half of the frame is a KZ1000 ...
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(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/55chevr/DSC032321.jpg)
better image ... shows the proportions well ...
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Back in the day I ran 9.00s at 160mph with a Z-1 engine - turbo and alcohol fuel ... basically a stock engine with forged flat top pistons. I ran the ungodly amount of boost in those day of 14 lbs. The new classic catagory at LTA is an interesting option.
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Joe, nice work bench, was the wife home when you drug it into the dining room. :roll:
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That is Chris G's house in Ft Worth ... I wouldnt do it on fear of castration ...
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The upper frame member of the welded on rigid rear looks a little flimsy to me. It's in compression and it's quite long, so could collapse if enough torque were applied at the rear. Also, it's not in line with the upper frame members. I suppose if it held up to drag racing, it should be strong enough, but who knows if it ever really was raced? I'd be a little cautious and beef it up as I bet you're going to have a bit more torque than a stocker!
Tom
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I was planning on adding diagonal braces to stiffen the rear ... This frame has never been raced but it is a dupe of the Kosman from that era ... this is a late 70-s drag frame ... back when they still used small car (8") slicks ... they launched hard, which fortunately we do not have to do. I used to break a lot of parts drag racing ... One reason I dont do it any more.
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The ZX-10 is a lot of engine for an old style rigid frame bike. Maybe a 600 four would work better. Its power would more closely resemble the output of the older air cooled motors.
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Joe,
You're probably going to need a larger gas tank as well!
Tom
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I like it. The ZX10 should make it real fun to ride at least! :-D
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My 2-cents worth is if speeds above 130 are your goal, the rear should have suspension (very stiff)......to keep the tire engaged with the salt at all times. I would also think about a larger motor cradle for room to run narrow add-ons to keep the aero-declining from the cylinder block. Your overall build will be challenged by the available tire sizes. If your going to run partial streamlined, the front of the fairing should be well ahead of the front axle...............so measure your rake and fork-tubes carefully. For straight-line speed purposes, you could probably use 35mm tubes and a narrow tree. No wheelie drops are allowed!
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Joe, nice work bench, was the wife home when you drug it into the dining room. :roll:
I still remember the flack I got for doing my cylinder head on the kitchen table! :cry:
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Ben building a lakester in the basement for more years than I want to admit. You should hear the grief I get about grinding down there.
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Ben building a lakester in the basement for more years than I want to admit. You should hear the grief I get about grinding down there.
Wives love the smell of grinding metal, I know first hand! :-o
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The rear half as it stands is similar in construction to a lengthened Hayabusa swingarm with the brace on the top instead of the bottom. I know that a good turbo 'Busa makes 630 horsepower and they handle that without any obvious problem. I plan on adding some diagonial tubes to stiffen it up. I think that this chassis will successfully handle the 160 horsepower a ZX10 makes. Back in the mid 70-s I drag raced the twin to this as a funny bike. Z1 Kawasaki -1000cc turbo, alcohol fuel. Pre dyno days but I would estimate it made about 170 HP at 14 lbs boost. Ran 9.0-s at 160 mph. The Chapman drag frame I use with the 1350cc H-D engine handles 130 horsepower and has gone 150 mph without any issue at Maxton, Loring and Bonneville. I think that a ZX10 engine could push an open bike to 170 or there abouts. No concerns once I verify geometry on my chassis jig.
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Joe, PM sent.
Pete
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I am considering some triangulation adds ... the geometry looks right as the axle is directly inline with the swingarm pivot. This is the strong part of the frame
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Out of the blue another frame turned up ... this one is a lot beefier in the back half .... Oh well, what is one more frame? Might just have to build another bike ...
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Pictures??? :? :? :-D
Pete
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(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/55chevr/IMG-20111118-001502.jpg)
Only have photos sent by seller ... Neck is done well ... I will check the frame geometry when I get in my shop ...
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/55chevr/IMG-20111118-001511.jpg)
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(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/55chevr/P1010211.jpg)
One of 4 frames I have ...
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/55chevr/P1010212.jpg)
check the rake ...
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A little tough to see but it is 40 degrees ...
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/55chevr/P1010214.jpg)
Frame option 2
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/55chevr/P1010215.jpg)
This one shows an angle of 45 degrees ...
I prefer 35 degrees ... guess I can take some rake out ... both of these frames are Z-1 type frames from the 70-s that were back halved. the purple on is way over built ... the raw steel one needs some bracing ... I have another drag frame plus a stock frame with a Kosman "big foot" swing arm on it ...
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third option
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Better build up all three to test the various rake!
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I'm just noticing the evolution from the dining room table to the patio table to the grass! :-o
Were you standing on the dog house or in the doorway when you took these pix? :?
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I prefer the third 1.
plenty of fuel tank volume , a lot of bracing and a great ( for me ) and stable rake.
franey
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The dining room table photo wasnt my dining room ... A friend got it for me from a local guy in Fort Worth Texas ... He sent me the photo after he picked it up ... What is interesting this that there is nice work on all the frames. Good welding and nice design work ... I dont have the the 3rd one yet, it is on the way. It looks like there are a lot of drag frames laying around from old projects. I got a Kawasaki ZX9 front end from a local guy here off Craigslist. The parts are coming together. I am going to build a frame jig to check angles and square. Plumb lines and level work but are a bit crude
Joe
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I sat the ZX10 engine in the D-K drag frame and it looks like someone trying to put a jet engine in a biplane. They are generations apart. The original air cooled Z1 engine is wider and longer than the water cooled ZX10 engine. The deep oil pan, throttle bodies and air box make the ZX10 taller and virtually impossible to fit in the frame. I might have to front half the frame. I am trying to avoid building a frame jig but it seems impossible without it. The stock frame that was back halved fits better. Now I have too many options and none are going to be easy.
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Im sure you already know this but Ill feel better if I say it anyway. The original Z1 steering necks were never very accurate in the tracking dept front wheel to rear wheel. Hopefully it got cured with the back half but its something you might want to check. Now I feel better anyway, good luck with it
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The original Z1 frames were terrible. The engines were what they engineered in the 70-s. One of the frames I had there was a 12 inch mig wire tail under the gas tank. No QC at all. Looks like I am going to build a frame jig and buy a tubing bender unless I can find someone that can do what I want. I can get a complete frame built to my spec for $3k but this simple project is becoming more like a nightmare.
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Now you're talking! Make a jig - - lot's of good ones on this forum and also take a look at michael moore's Euro Spares sight. You can borrow mine if you want to pay the freight. Build a tube bender - - Pro-tools in Florida have dies for all tubing sizes as well as complete benders, and the internet has tube bender designs for a pittance. You'll also need a tube notcher of some kind. Spread the top tubes out like the modern perimeter frames so you can get down low and also to have lots of room to work on the top of the motor. Make it long enough to get your seat down below the top of the rear wheel. Start with a good drawing. I built my complete bike in a little over 3 months. Good luck and keep us posted (like you might not!)
Tom
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I once read about a guy that found this cool boat prop at a yard sale, 10 years later he had a finished 30 foot boat built around it. Sounds kinda like this project Joe!
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I know ... I am reviewing the logic of it right now. If there is any logic. I tried to pick up a low frame that would work on an open bike without streamlining. Found early Z-1 Kawasaki drag frames looked promising and when I got them in the shop nothing fits. On the older drag frames the drive sprocket doesnt line up well with horizontal cross tubes. The ZX10 engines output shaft it higher. The engines are radically different in every dimension. If I start hacking on it I might as well just make a frame from scratch. I could build a frame jig on the welding table but this is way beyond what started as a simple project. I have to review all the options and decide.
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I have never used a jig for frames just a flat bench with Quarter and centre lines acuratley marked out and just check and double check everything triangulating of the said lines,The frames are usually acurate to within a couple of mm. I used a plumbers 1" pipe bender to build the CBR and notched the tubes with a 4.5" angle grinder.
Shoestring stuff but it works and works well!
Cheers Oz
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Joe, the way Oz built his frame with a big open area above the intakes is a good idea. Right now I am working on the Triumph inlet configuration and there is a big fat frame member in the middle of everything. It seriously limits my options such as a Helmholz resonant plenum and other things. I want to saw it out but the handling might affected. Just an idea if you decide to make a frame.
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My son and I built a frame jig 4 years ago for his circle track car. it gives you a fixed center line that is easy to find . He is proposing to build a scaled down version for bikes. I bought the steering neck fixture from Bitterend Choppers and the rest we will make. I am going to borrow the tubing bender from work and it looks like a go.
Joe
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Joe,
There are pipe benders and there are tubing benders -- big difference. Pipe benders work OK with thick wall pipe, as long as the mandrels are the exact size as the pipe. Tube benders work on a different principal, are sized to tube sizes, and do a much better job. Make sure the bender you use is suited to the tubing you will be using.
Tom
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Hi Joe,
I've been rereading old build threads and was wondering if you've made any progress on this project?
Regards,
Frank John
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Frank -
Started over ... built a frame jig and got started ... click this link
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,11095.0.html
Joe
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Joe,
Thanks, will hopefully see you in a couple of weeks...