Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Jon on November 13, 2011, 05:29:01 PM
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Hi
What are people using for SFI 38.1 compliance with reclined seating?
The Hans site references up to 40°, my seat is 60°, any heklp would be good thanks.
Thanks
jon
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How about a little more info. like where do you live, what are you building etc. You will get faster responses and help. Might be someone in your area that can look at your build etc.BTW, welcome to the forum.
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Hi, Jon.
You're new - welcome aboard.
There's a search function on these boards, upper right hand corner, and believe me, we've discussed this issue to the point of fatigue. :-D
Just enter SFI 38.1 into the search box, and you'll see more opinions, questions and advice than you would think imaginable.
60 degree layback - What are you building?
Again, welcome aboard.
Chris
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I've taken the liberty of adding locations to the avatar space for a few of the new folks -- as well as sending them invitations to fill out the location blank in their Forum profile. I doubt that Jon is really from the town of Maine, Arkansas -- but maybe it'll get a rise out of him and he'll correct me. It's worth a try. There's no easy way that I've discovered to require new folks to fill out the location part of the profile -- so I've gotta try something new, I figured.
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Jon, not SSS Jon, we use the DJ Safety device. We are reclined about 75 degrees or so, laying down with just the head and a little bit of shoulders up. Here is a pic from a few years back, when we were not using the DJ. We just added the DJ HNR harness, it doesn't take up much room.
Please post a picture of what you are trying to fit
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Jon, not SSS Jon, That is a real pensive look before the run, must of been a record run. Tony
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Hi
Thanksfor the welcome, sorry I didn't introduce myself, I've been lurking & searching for a while but haven't posted before.
I'm in Brisbane Aus, just up the road from Maine Arkansas.
I'm putting together a streamliner bike slowly, i don't have a build topic, starting on seat dimensions & want to get a 38.1 device before I start metal work to make sure it all fits.
Have found a lot of discussion on 38.1 but couldn't find anything on what people are using for fairly low seats sorry.
Stainless, the DJ units don't specify an angle like the HANS units do?
Thanks
Jon
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Jon, no it does not, we use it in both cars. The streamliner sits up, the lakester as you see is a lay down. The issue, the DJ is not yet SFI approved, it is still in testing and refinement to get approval. The scta has accepted it as of now, I know Joe is working on certification and plans to put tags on all devices he has sold when it is finally certified.
Max also runs the DJ in his streamlined bike. The nice thing about it is the device is all straps, so it does not take up any room in a tight vehicle. There are no hard collars or components to hang up on when exiting.
Note to Tony... every run in the little car is a record run.... :-o and requires your undivided attention. BTW, 245 was a hoot... :-D too bad it only ran 8 miles instead of 10 :-(
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Thanks for your help Stainless.
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It looks like DJ Safety is discontinuing the DefNder line.
From the SFI site;
Please note that there are products from other manufacturers such as DefNder and Leatt Brace that were previously certified and labeled as meeting SFI 38.1. They are not currently listed on the SFI website because they are no longer in new production. However, any devices still in the field or at retail outlets that have SFI 38.1 stickers on them were properly tested and certified at the time. The certifications for those devices remain valid.
Specification 38.1 - Head and Neck Restraint Systems
HANS Performance Products - HANS Device (All Series)
Safety Solutions R3 Device
Safety Solutions R3 Rage Device
Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid Pro Device
Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid Pro Rage Device
Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid/Hybrid Rage Device
Safety Solutions Hybrid X Device
Is anyone using any of these with a seat angle of around 60 degrees or steeper?
Thanks
Jon
Is anyone using a
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DJ IS making the one Stainless shows. Previously they had the Defender AND the new one.
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Jon--I know that one of the Safety Solutions devices is being used in Charles Markley`s` laydown Lakester and , according to him, works well. He almost qualified on the Green Bros 275 record last year. Do a search for Ravenna Garage Lakester....It is about the same laydown as Stainless` Bockscar...
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Kiwi, not to discredit what you are saying, but Charley Markley drives using a periscope which would in my opinion not require the same "angle of attack" for the wearer......... just my perspective.
As far as the SCTA requiring the use of a SFI 38.1 while allowing one manufacturers products to be used without that certification could certainly raise a few eyebrows.
One has to wonder if the new model fails the SFI testing will refunds be given? Bob
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In Aus it needs to be SFI, so choosing from the SFI list is the only option.
Have been in contact with DJ for a while re buying a unit when it was SFI approved, doesn't sound like its happening.
Dont think the HANS units would work, the bit sticking up the back would be a bear & they dont make a unit anywhere near 60 degrees.
I sent an inquiry to Simpson & got this reply:
"Your best option would be the Hybrid Pro.
This device does not require your seat to be at any certain angle.
It will strap to your body and use the belts to protect you."
Cheers
jon
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As far as the SCTA requiring the use of a SFI 38.1 while allowing one manufacturers products to be used without that certification could certainly raise a few eyebrows.
I do have my 2012 rule book but it isn't with me right now but unless something has changed, the SCTA does not require the use of a certified 38.1 device. I believe it says it must be SFI 38.1-type thus why the DJ system is accepted.
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Not having yet recieved my 2012 rulebook to review, I can only say that if it is written that way it is certainly "one ambiguous rule".
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In Aus it needs to be SFI, so choosing from the SFI list is the only option.
Have been in contact with DJ for a while re buying a unit when it was SFI approved, doesn't sound like its happening.
Dont think the HANS units would work, the bit sticking up the back would be a bear & they dont make a unit anywhere near 60 degrees.
I sent an inquiry to Simpson & got this reply:
"Your best option would be the Hybrid Pro.
This device does not require your seat to be at any certain angle.
It will strap to your body and use the belts to protect you."
Cheers
jon
Simpson bought Safety Solutions last year. Yes the Hybrid Pro or Pro Rage will work very well in a reclined position.
Good luck
Charles
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Yep, as long as you have room to put clearance hole or recess in your seat back for the hard collar, if you have a lay down. Otherwise the hard collar will hold your neck in the perfect position to break it....
YEMV
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Thanks guys, I'm just about about ready to start welding bits together.
Buying all the protective gear that I'm going to use so that the seat is made to suit.
Cheers
Jon
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Stainless you're mistaken (I think) about the Safety Soultions device (now owned by Simpson). They make several and I think you're speaking about the Rage or R3. The Hybrid Pro is what we use and it does not have the beam that travels down the back.
Our seat lays back only 45 degrees but the kids have no issues with ingress or egress.
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Dyno,
Maybe, We tried on or looked at a couple of devices, Sumner had a Hybrid :? I think (looked a little like the device in your pictures) that the smallest and we tried in the Bockscar. It was a small hard collar piece that seemed to just put a hard lump in the back of your neck and hold your head and neck at a bad angle in our seat.
There is another person on the site with a laydown that said they cut a hole or formed a large dent for the device, I remember the discussion but not the thread it was in. That plan was not possible in our seat. There is not a lot of room for head movement anyway, your chin and helmet are on your chest. I think almost any device in this situation is eyewash but the DJ device is the least bulky and will not allow your helmet to roll forward through your chest if that is possible. Our exit was not an issue.
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You do NOT need to recess the seat or use a special seat pad for what I was talking about.
Look up the differant models.
Good luck
Charles
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Charles, not starting a pissing contest but what lay down car did you wear any of those devices in? The Hybrid Pro looks like the device I remember trying. It might work fine in a reclined position of say 45 degrees, that's a lounge chair. but in a 15-20 degree that just raises your sholders a little it pretty much sucked. As I said YEMV (your experience may vary)
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Jeez. I thought a YEMV was a Czech or Hungarian car......................
Now this may sound crazy but lets say you didn't need to tilt your head to see. Would that allow the use of a standard Hans or Hybrid?
What I am talking about is using a front forward mounted camera and putting as large of a t.v. screen as possible under the canopy.
It couldn't be any harder to see forward with than "Portland" Charley Markleys 265 mph belly tank which he steers with a periscope showing him where to aim it.
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Jeez. I thought a YEMV was a Czech or Hungarian car......................
Now this may sound crazy but lets say you didn't need to tilt your head to see. Would that allow the use of a standard Hans or Hybrid?
What I am talking about is using a front forward mounted camera and putting as large of a t.v. screen as possible under the canopy.
It couldn't be any harder to see forward with than "Portland" Charley Markleys 265 mph belly tank which he steers with a periscope showing him where to aim it.
Just file a flight plan and drive by GPS alone.
I swear most the drivers on the 91 fwy are already doing it, but their flight plans were rejected ...
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Bob, we see all the sky there is out there.... it's the ground and horizon that makes it a challenge...
A lot of your "butt feel" is lost when lying on your back anyway.... I know looking through a periscope really has to add to the "experience"... I can't imagine... :roll:
Forgot to add... hope he has crosshairs...
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Bob, we see all the sky there is out there.... it's the ground and horizon that makes it a challenge...
A lot of your "butt feel" is lost when lying on your back anyway.... I know looking through a periscope really has to add to the "experience"... I can't imagine... :roll:
Forgot to add... hope he has crosshairs...
Everytime I hear mention about the Markley lakester I think to myself it must have felt too safe to be interesting......so he put the periscope in. I hear a rumblin Stainless..We're a little further up in the car than you but not a lot. I am yet to confirm( I will at a DLRA meeting today) about the disparity between what the club will accept and the SCTA'a acceptance of some devices that are yet to be SFI certified.......
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Anyone that's never been in a full lay down car won't know the sacrifices required to get there. The biggest issue , as Stainless said,
is getting your head forward far enough to see the land & thats where the collar-thing screws you.
I've been in the "Markley periscope tank", the driver position is not a full lay down, it's really comfortable & the periscope is bitchin. 30 seconds after you're in there, you don't even know you're looking through a mirror.
I liked the idea for the liner, but SCTA deemed it a no-no for a new car.
Sid.
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I had a lengthy discussion with Joe at DJ Safety in regards to his HANR device.... and we use it in both of our cars.... the Vega is about a 20degree seat angle.... the lakester is 50 degrees..... DJ's system is adjustable for each and would adjust for an rven more laid back angle but it is my guess that there could be a limit beyond where it may not be able to properly support your had and neck.
What I understand from Joe is that there was a malfunction of something during the testing of the DJ system and they ran out of time for further testing. The testing labs with the crash testing equipment are ALWAYS booked for testing a long time in advance. The biggest reason for not getting SFI certification was due to their not being able to schedule further testing until some time in the future. I think that I have some of the test info somewhere but I had been asked to not share it or publish it as DJ was willing to do so in any case. I had a computer crash after receiving the information anyway so I don not have it on my laptop computer which is where it was... the papers were hard copy and I had scanned it.... so, the info is at home, but I won't be home for a few weeks. (I am at a gold mine project; setting up a ball mill.)
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I was talking to DJ as well, sweating on them getting certification.
Their HANS device is gone from their website & replies to emails on the subject have dried up.
I'm ordering a Simpson unit & making my seat to suit, so ican keep going.
My seat isn't as laid down as yours Stainless as I'm looking over a 23" tyre that has 2.5" of clearance to the fender for compression suspension travel & tyre growth, my but is about 6-7" off the ground.
That gives me about 18" of height difference from my but to my eyeline.
A true lay down car with a periscope would be difficult I recon with the balance tubes in your ears & your eyes giving conflicting info due to your eyes seeing 90 degrees to where your body thinks they should, never been in one so only guessing.
jon
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Jon, you're misunderstanding the periscope we're talking about. Your head is still tilted forward but you are looking slightly up from horizontal to the ground level & it's really very natural. It's common for long tanks to do a windshield/window in the nose, this is just a different variation of that same driving position. It seems you are under the impression the driver is looking straight up (vertical) & thats not the case.
Sid.
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Thanks Sid, yep different than I was thinking.
Looks like there's another manufacturer in the market.
http://www.necksgen.com (http://www.necksgen.com)
Looks a lot like the DefNder?
I have sent them an enquiry re lay down seating.
jon
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I was talking to DJ as well, sweating on them getting certification.
Their HANS device is gone from their website & replies to emails on the subject have dried up.
You are wrong on this. The Unit Stainless was talking about is still produced by DJ.
That new one that you linked has some interesting features.
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I was talking to DJ as well, sweating on them getting certification.
Their HANS device is gone from their website & replies to emails on the subject have dried up.
You are wrong on this. The Unit Stainless was talking about is still produced by DJ.
That new one that you linked has some interesting features.
My bad assumption sorry.
Based on; they pulled it from their site for a couple months & stopped giving me updates on certification, then didn't reply to follow up queries on certification progress.