Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: javajoe79 on November 03, 2011, 02:23:29 PM
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So as some of you may know, this year at speedweek there was a Chevrolet SSR that showed up to run in C/MMP. From what I have been told and heard while we where there, they only allowed them to run for time only. I also understand it was because they had a modified front valance on the vehicle.
Now to me an SSR does not really fit in MMP. Kind of how an el camino doesn't either. I understand that the El Camino does not class as a pickup because the bed does not separate from the frame/cab. The bed on the SSR is also part of the rest of the body so it should also not be allowed in MMP or MP. Following that logic then, an SSR should wind up in GT or Mod Sports since it has two seats. At the same time though, smaller pickups like VW rabbit based pickups are allowed to run as trucks, so????
Any insight into the official stance on this subject would be great as well as opinions or reasoning as to why an SSR should or should not run as a truck.
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No answers, but some thoughts.
I could see where the El Camino and Ranchero would be disallowed, and not because of the fact that the bed is part of the body - it was based upon a car would be the reason. I believe the 1959 Ford F-100 also incorporated the bed into the cab, yet it's clearly a pickup, to my mind.
But the SSR was, from design through production, intended to be a pickup truck.
I can't speak to the valance, but it sounds to me that they may have got this wrong for 'em.
I've got a bit of an interest in this small pickup question - I'm sitting with a 1 liter AH engine in the Midget, and thinking down the road a ways, a Morris Minor Pickup might make a good home for it.
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We ran a 62 Ford Unibody in D/PP this year, yes bed and body one piece. The Elco/Ranchero vs Rabbit/Rampage deal confuses me. No consistancy in the classes. Somebody enlighten me :?
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Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are dead.
Aldous Huxley
:evil:
Mike
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I just think that if the title says "truck" then it's a truck, what does the manufacture class it into? Truck, then that's what it is.
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I think when the organization allowed car based vehicles to run in pickup (Rabbit-Rampage) they infact changed the long standing tradition AND rulebook ruling that car based pickups were not allowed in the car classes. I don't know why this was done or at least I don't remember but it should continue thru out all of them or go back to the real intent or specifically what was and is written in the book.
The other part of this is what DMV's classify these vehicles and that could be different from state to state. In California all of them including SSR's are commercial vehicles; even the HHR with no windows is one. Commercial may not mean truck, but you definately pay more for your licensing and a weight fee. I had a 53 Ford Courier Sedan Delivery once and it was a truck to the State of Ca.
I believe it should be settled one way or the other but not both. If El Camino and Ranchero are allowed to run in the pickup class I see the demise of the real pickup ...Good Luck
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I believe it should be settled one way or the other but not both. If El Camino and Ranchero are allowed to run in the pickup class I see the demise of the real pickup ...Good Luck
Great points, your last one really makes sense :-o
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From what I have been told and heard while we where there, they only allowed them to run for time only.
When I inspected the truck the owner told me that they got the okay to run the "truck" as a truck from the Truck Committee Chair.
I also understand it was because they had a modified front valance on the vehicle.
This is possible but they are allowed to run a front air dam in MMP.
I understand that the El Camino does not class as a pickup because the bed does not separate from the frame/cab.
I could very well be wrong but I don't think this is true. It's not a matter of the cab being separated from the bed but whether or not the "truck" is based on a car. The front end of an El Camino or Ranchero is basically a car and that's why they run in the car classes.
At the same time though, smaller pickups like VW rabbit based pickups are allowed to run as trucks, so????
And this is where things get screwy. The SSR is not unibody and is not based on a car (technically). The SSR uses the same chassis as a Chevy Trail Blazer which is an SUV which in my eyes is more truck-ish than car-ish. The VW Rabbit truck and others are cleary based on cars. The front end of a VW truck is a Rabbit which is a car.
Any insight into the official stance on this subject would be great as well as opinions or reasoning as to why an SSR should or should not run as a truck.
I'd say that the official stance is what is being allowed now but what's allowed now may not be allowed later. Case in point, one of the truck committee members submitted a rule change request to creat a "Sport Truck" class so these hybrid car-truck things can compete against each other. We didn't even talk about it at the rules meeting because we can only submit for new classes on even years so it'll probably come up again next year.
IMO, it's pretty simple. Car based "trucks" should run as cars like the El Caminos and Rancheros already do and truck or SUV based trucks should run as trucks, bed attached or not.
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. . .
I've got a bit of an interest in this small pickup question - I'm sitting with a 1 liter AH engine in the Midget, and thinking down the road a ways, a Morris Minor Pickup might make a good home for it.
Morris Minor Pickup production ended in 71. The Mid/Mini truck classes are restrictred to 1972 or newer vehicles.
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Thanks for all the insight.
Nathan they ran a very small air dam or lip under the bumper which I think would be fine but I understand that some modifications had been made to the shape of the lower part of the bumper, which would be illegal.
The idea of a sport truck class sounds good too but what else would run in that class?
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Hmmm. Interesting discussion. So the thinking is a VW Truck is a car? like the Elky's and Ranchero's? because of the Front end?
There is such a vehicle pictured in the Rulebook (Section 5.D.6) for the BMMP Class, also a longtime record holder.
The Book also says MMP is considered to be in the Modified Category, Gas Coupe Class same as Elky's and Rancheros(Section 5.D). Or the Elky and Ranchero can compete in the Classic Class (Section 5.C)
what was the question?
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It's a very complex issue, the El Camino's and Ranchero's, were basically cars with car running gears, mostly all the same options. It was hard for them to get traction to the road for drag racing purposes, but would run with them on the top end. Then along comes the mini trucks that one year ended up being the fastest production car, or truck? Then comes the SSR cute, fast, basically a Corvette with a 52 Chevy front design and a large trunk area. I'm sure that the greatest gear heads on earth can come up with a reasonable and logical solution. :|
Steve
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All I know is it will be fun to watch this one play out.
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I just think that if the title says "truck" then it's a truck, what does the manufacture class it into? Truck, then that's what it is.
Don't go by manufacturer's designation. They class a vehicle for reasons other than logic or common sense, like import duty considerations. The Subaru Brat was imported with seats mounted in the open pickup bed to get a more favorable duty class. Or for marketing purposes - for a long time now nobody would be caught dead driving a station wagon, so they've been calling them suv's and crossovers and whatever else they can think of to avoid the stigma.
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I believe the Brat was circumventing a tariff on imported pickups at the time -- about 25%(?).
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We ran in C/MMP and got the record this year so that SSR definitely caught our attention. It is a beautiful build and they seemed to have spared no expense on it. I guess we should be looking out for it if they can get it dialed in. They told us the handling was pretty scary and it would get loose when it shifted. I don't believe they cracked 200mph and we set the record at 219mph so maybe we have some time before we need to worry about them.
I guess from what everyone says here, it really should be considered a pickup. I am sure the MP guys wouldn't like it in their class because it is smaller and may present an advantage. I also think that it is at a disadvantage in MMP since it's width and the bulging fenders can't be helping out in the drag department.
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Just goes to show you that money doesn't buy you a record or red hat.
DW
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Yeah but wrenching your butt off on someone else's truck does :cheers:
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Just goes to show you that money doesn't buy you a record or red hat.
DW
That's the truth right there, you need a LOT of Money :-D just for the Hotel at Speedweek!
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Everything evolves...That's why the newer more aero pickups will take over in time what the old box pickups did in the past. It just takes time.
Vintage and Classic has brought some parody but people will continue to push those envelops to.
There are some vehicles which meet the rules (questionable on the spirit) but are butt-ugly to other competitors and they would never build one in that fashion. It's the nature of the beast looking for an advantage.
I personally don't like any pickups that were clearly based on car body parts being allowed in the pickup class, foreign or domestic, but I would run what was allowed and would give me the most advantage. Hey that's racing. You do it until things change.....Good luck and keep building new ones.
PS: wish so many non racers didn't "occupy" speed week.............JD
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PS: wish so many non racers didn't "occupy" speed week.............JD
That's why I like WOS, but then, I've been a squatter myself at Speedweek.
Regarding the classifications, that the rules single out the El Camino and the Ranchero in their wording indicates just how seldom classification rules are looked at for an update. It's been 24 years since the last Elky rolled off of the assembly line, 32 for the Rancho.
If their design parameters are what are being used to define a class of currently built cars, either by inclusion or omission, it's inadequate, at best.
I don't know that more classes are the answer - indeed, probably not, but I do think 40-50 year old benchmarks probably need to be revisited.
And personally, as an aside to another thread, I think permitting modified Studebaker heads should be included in that discussion.
My 2 cents - worth maybe half.
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Chris,
It takes someone with the movtivation to move the rules forward to currently available equipment.
The modified Studebaker heads are legal, just not in the Production classes.
DW
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PS: wish so many non racers didn't "occupy" speed week.............JD
Look at it this way, they help pay the bills. They buy tee shirts, pay to get on the salt, etc. In turn that pays for the Andy Gumps, workers, Rooms, etc. and makes SCTA a nice profit, which helps pay for the rain outs like World Finals just encountered.
Otherwise entry fees might be $1000 per entry to have 4 courses.
Tom G.
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OK
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You have to remember JD is not very "people friendly". He would live in a cabin in the woods if Jean would allow.
DW
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PS: wish so many non racers didn't "occupy" speed week.............JD
The spectators bother you? Why is that? I kind of like it. Besides it is nothing like spectators in other forms of racing.
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I think there is concern among some of the older competers (not that Tone is really old) that Bonneville is becoming treated like a spectator sport. Something that is hard to understand when you have been a participant for the last thirty or so years.
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I think there is concern among some of the older competers (not that Tone is really old) that Bonneville is becoming treated like a spectator sport. Something that is hard to understand when you have been a participant for the last thirty or so years.
I am new, only been there once as a spectator and stayed clear. It was OK, came back this year and was drafted into a team of friends I had never met. Had the best time of my life! I was the safety guy, strap Tim in and make sure all was well before the run. Honored that he asked me to do that. Meant this rookie had some moxy and skill.
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We had many people visit our pit this year. Drafted one as a permanent crew member, and one is doing some body design work at home for the lakester, one brought us a spare engine [gratus] from California, and one wants to build us some rocker arms which aren't readilly available. Only one drank our beer and he replaced it with fresh stuff the next day and hauled the garbage away. All of them were pit walk-ins that added to our experience and knowledge. Had about 50 kids from the schools in Utah there at times and it was like teaching school. We learned a lot from the next generation and they asked questions that we had to scratch our heads about to find answers. Spectators are more than welcome in our pit.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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And there is the truth about spectators. Most participants were spectators first. I showed up in '66 to see what I had read about in HRM. Loved it. Later I brought back two friends to observe the proceedings. Two years in a row and on the third we were running a car. Spectators are the participants of the future. But it doesn't always seem that way to old guys fooling with old cars.
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Sure spectators can get in the way some times but it's not that bad really. Try working on a pro race team where there is an open paddock policy. It is hard to walk around let alone get the car to the pits.
Most of the time the spectators just don't know they are intruding at times and all it takes is a little polite conversation to remind them when they might want to stand clear.
Also take for example the save the salt movement. That went national with petitions signed by thousands of spectators. Many of them have never even been to Bonneville and only signed their support because they know it as a special place to many people and a legendary motorsports venue. :cheers:
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You all missed my piont.....................cheap rooms....JD
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Good point :-D I like camping though.
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I didn't miss your point JD - thats just a cover story anyway.
DW
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When it comes to racing on the salt nothing is cheap, unless you buy a car that can get you a red hat that someones saved for you. :-D An affordable room is just a bonus. Tony