Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Clay Pitkin on September 26, 2011, 05:15:09 PM
-
OK question here: Looking at the rule book, for a fire suppression system in an enclosed car, Do I have to have two separate bottles of approved agent, (1) for the driver, and (1) for the engine/header area, or can I simply have one 10 pd bottle of approved agent, and will that pass tech?
TIA
Clay
-
Clay, as long as your class only needs 10lbs, 1 bottle is fine-that's all I, and a lot of cars have.
-
I'm not sure about that, but I would like having two fives so I could use just the one needed (if, in the situation, I could figure out which was which). Cheaper to refill a five, too.
-
The cost of refilling a 5 lb vs. a 10 lb bottle is a non-issue when you are on fire. I have not regretted touching off the 10 lb bottle at World of Speed when I felt more heat and saw what I thought was smoke in the cockpit on Salt Cat ll only to find out it was steam from coolant being pushed out into the cooling system by a compression leak into the system. Money well spent.
Doug
[P.S. We just added another 5 lb bottle for insurance]. See you all at World Finals. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
-
I'm with you, Doug. Those are minimums in the rule book. I also have a -20 suit. Was the steam coming out of your Cruiserline Ventiports? :cheers: Wayno
-
The reason Stan can figure out which is which is :
HE TRAVELS SLOWLY!
For the fast guys I recommend fire'n ALL at once!
-
Many years ago we had occasion to think the Bockscar was on fire after a run.... don't remember the circumstances... but Johnboy did not hit the fire bottles... and we were not on fire. :-D
We discussed it with other racers that night and Don Vesco gave us some sage advice on that... "if you think you're on fire you're not... you will know when you are on fire"
We have had occasion to use that advice many times over the years, oil leaking on header wrap puts out a lot of smoke, water spraying on header wrap puts out a lot of smoke looking stuff, a rubber hose too close to an unwrapped exhaust puts out a lot of smoke.
With that said, $500 is a lot less money than letting the car be consumed by fire. :-o
-
Thanks everyone, appreciate it!
Clay
-
Might just be me -- but for the last few years I've seen more bottles discharged in the pits than on the course.
-
2 words, SAFETY PINS.
I have 4 on 2 Bottles, one on the actuator, at the bottle, and one on the button.
-
Also the push to deploy systems tend to get set off by accident easier than the "pull type"
.. they make both kinds so to each his own, I just prefer the pull to deploy/activate type.
Charles
-
Might just be me -- but for the last few years I've seen more bottles discharged in the pits than on the course.
...........especially in the White Goose Bar :cheers:
-
Check with someone you trust about 2012 minimums, I hear changes are coming.
I just bought 2 systems, 5 lb for driver (ahead of motor) and a 10 lb for the part that crosses the fence last.
BTW, I have set off every type of actuator in the shop or trailer at one time or another.....
John
-
Look at your 2011 rulebook and you will see the change warning for activation on Jan 1, 2012.
DW
-
I got a royal reaming from the chief inspector at SW 2010 for not setting off the fire bottles when I lost a turbo. I knew from the previous SW that the smoke was from the failed turbo igniting the oil that was leaking into the turbo. Setting off the fire bottles would have done nothing for that kind of failure. Glad I got that off my chest.
-
In '78 I experienced my first blown turbo. Lot of smoke, so thinking "Better safe then sorry." I hit the bottle. Only to later think I had just made a pricey failure more costly. I went through a bunch of Corvair turbos after that. Never hit the bottle. Never heard anything from SCTA
-
Rich, you were lucky. I showed the inspector that there were no burnt wiring under the hood and yet he still thought I had an engine fire. He even wrote in my log book, "driver had engine fire and refused to use fire bottles". I'm glad I don't have to put up with him anymore. Now, I really feel like I have it off my chest once and for all.
-
I guessed that I was on fire at WOS and set off the bottle for nothing but steam. Damn, I hate it when I have premature discharge.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
We will load up for WF tomorrow and head out on Monday. See you all there.
-
Buick...Are bringing both cars?
-
Not enough time or enough motors. Wounded one at Speed Week, still waiting for parts. Salt Cat ll is together and ready again.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
-
I'm wishing you guys (JD & Doug) good luck, be safe and go fast. I love the old inline engines.
-
Good luck Doug!
Someday, I hope to have enough experience, and a car/engine combo, to challenge your records. That's when I'll know I'm 'doing things right'!
You guys are great! :cheers:
-
We said when we went to the Salt that we wanted to go out and have some fun and if we set a record, it would be like painting a target on our back. Records are to be broken. We like to run the old Buicks because there aren't a lot of manufactured parts out there. If we want a different head, we have to build one in the long Montana Winter. Innovation is where it all started, and that's what makes the Salt so much fun. If it turns to bracket type racing like NHRA, you won't see us back. We've been there. Loading the car tomorrow. See you on the Salt.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
-
At my work place I recently was assigned to get familiar with our new fire suppression system.
In doing the research for that assignment, I ran across a really interesting fire suppression option that might be really useful to carry in a race car, pit vehicle or first responder vehicle.
http://www.statx.com/First_Responder.asp
Instead of tying up the rescuers hands operating a fire extinguisher, one of these could be tossed into the drivers compartment of a car and then immediately the rescuer could begin assisting the driver out of the vehicle.
It might be a useful backup for the driver as well if hard mounted within reach.
Larry
-
That fire safety canister looks good. How much?
Stat-X First Responder Fire Supression Devices
UN 0431
First Responders come in a case of four
Your Price: $700.00
-
Ouch!
Maybe need to see if one of the safety vendors will sell them in one's and two's
Larry
-
Thats neat, a compact device for classes that do not "require" a fire system. Not to mention the electrical version will work in my sever room.
-
One thing to remember is that this system, just like ColdFire, are suppressants, not extinguishers like Halon.
You may have one hell of a time getting them recertified every two years. Bob
-
This appears to be a non pressurize device. would that make a difference on certification??
-
The first responder unit ignites like a smoke grenade after about a 3 second delay.
My co-worker found a couple video clips of their systems being used
This shows the hand held device in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfPSlzT6bgg
This one shows the electrically operated modules used in server rooms and similar locations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFDGljqiR-k
The suppression is accomplished by breaking the chemical reaction that occurs during burning, not through oxygen displacement.
Larry
-
i have a 3.8 liter AFFF firecharger system in my BGC and will be going in the 160mph range to begin with so is this manufacturer accepted as legal?i will be attending the ohio mile meet this yr.
edit: i now realize i should be in the ECTA.i found this topic in a search,sorry.
EDIT:Mr Timney called and said i could use the AFFF but was not ideal.thanks for your time.
-
I am in the process of adding a system to the engine compartment. I notice that section 3-Q allows use of a dry chemical or CO2 in the engine area. I have never seen this done before, (Altho I have not really paid much attention up to now) , has anyone used a Dry chem system ? and How would you plumb it ? Nozzles ? Same for CO2 ???
-
You don't want to use dry chem. The cleanup is huge and you must do it absolutely thoroughly no matter how small the fire because the chemical is a pretty effective abrasive.
Pete
-
Good point and I have considered the mess factor, Maybe I'm reading the paragraph wrong, I got to thinking, is this for first responders, not a built in system ? Honestly the problem I'm having is the cost of a Halon system , 500 bucks and up. Yeah I'm cheap!
However if the engine is on fire , and you dump a dry chem bottle , your'e pretty much done for the rest of the event. so plenty of time to clean up when you get the mess home .
-
But the abrasive may include the interior of the running engine.
-
Billy, I run a 10# CO2 and a 10# Coldfire both to the engine area.
They are both plumbed the same and just like any Halon system (which I have 15# of for the cockpit).
The only drawback with the CO2 bottle is that Most IF Not All only work as long as you have your hand squeezing the handle which, as the rule book states, must remain on once opened.
What I did on mine was to modify the handle so that when you squeeze the lever, a spring loaded latch catchs over a horizontal cotter pin that runs from side to side on the handle.
The results are that the handle is held open until you depress the spring held lever.
It's easier than it sounds, you just need to look at it for a few minutes and realize how it functions.
I would recomend you empty the bottle first so that you can actually try the latch system out before refilling it. CO2 is cheap and ANY local Safety Supply store can probably fill it if they service any type of fire systems. Bob
-
Thank you for the replys to this question, Yes, the CO 2 makes much more sense ! And the Halon bottle we already have in the cab has a trigger mechanism like the one Bob has mentioned , so yes, I know what you are refering to there . I will look into the CO 2 system more closely . Thanks again !
-
CO2 is a Gas, and being under pressure I sure can't see why not.
-
Eventho I have never acuated a fire system in anger I have used both CO2 and dry chemical (purple K) in my race cars.The CO2 was in my first coupe in 1975 I plumbed it from beside me to the engine compartment in 3/8" tubing. I used the nozzle from the base of the cone in an aluminum funnel as the aimer for discharging. The handle was set up with a clutch return spring and I made a large circular pin I could pull with my gloves on. The bottle was mounted up right right beside my seat behind the shifter. Remember this was 1975 and it passed tech without question.
In 1981 I mounted a 20# air actuated dry powder system to my roadster. It was the style you pushed on a lever which actuated a pin which severed a membrane allowing air to charge the cylinder holding the 20# of product. I did not use a shut off lever. If I had activated it, all 20#'s would be discharged under the hood from the fire wall out. If you ever saw 20# of this stuff go out a nozzle you knew there would be no more fire under the hood, which was my thinking. The problem was the actuator lever was outside my cage limit and by the late 80's that was disallowed so I took it out and now use 1211 on me and Fire Fox on the engine....Good Luck
PS: If you ever get real inventive in your fire system, consider putting a TEE in your water system with a manual handle plumbed to a brass lawn sprinkler nozzle.....20-30 gallons of any water hot or cold will cool down a fire............Oh yeah..it has been done. :-D
-
J. D. thats not a bad idea.
I just recently purchased most of the stuff needed to run a overhead sprinkler system in my shop.
It will tie into my existing house water system and place sprinkler heads aproximatly every 8' in a square pattern.
They actually make a PVC pipe (grey ?) and fittings (orange) which is meant for low pressure sprinkler systems.
My shop is aproximatley 1300 sq.' and for less than $500. I will have sprinkler protection which may not be the best, but a heck of a lot better than none.
Incedently I keep a five gallon bucket of water (with a lid on it) near my welding bench along with wall mounted fire extinguishers aproximatly 6 to 8' feet apart. If they are sitting on the floor, they are hard to find.
One more thing, if you are tying a fire system into your domestic water system be sure to put a backflow preventer in the feed line or you may get all sorts of crud and bacteria in your drinking water.
Bob
-
PS: If you ever get real inventive in your fire system, consider putting a TEE in your water system with a manual handle plumbed to a brass lawn sprinkler nozzle.....20-30 gallons of any water hot or cold will cool down a fire............Oh yeah..it has been done. :-D
Thanks JD, I was going to ask that very question at some point!
-
Yeah ! This is the kind of input I was hoping for ! some great ideas, heres where I'm at . I'm going up town tomorrow to check out a place which sells fire systems for resturants, they use a co2 system in the kitchens . I want to see what kind of nozzles and lines they use. THEN I thought all I need is a bottle , the little light bulb came on and I dug thru the "Shed of no return" and found two five lb bottles I have had for years ! just need to get them checked and filled , This may work out after all !
-
Drew, you sly fox -- you win the "Comma (and grammar) Cop award for the week!! :cheers: :cheers:
You said: "...the little light bulb came on..." and that's correct. Yeah!
Most often folks trying to express that A-HAH sentiment say something along the lines of "the light bulb went off" or worse, "I woke when the alarm went off". They should be saying went on or came on -- and since you did, you win a hearty vote of thanks and corngratulations and a hearty handshake (if you'll remind me about it) at the Shootout this fall.
-
If you're using CO2 make sure it isn't aimed at the driver. It's hell to incur burns and frostbite at the same time! :-D :-D :evil:
Pete
-
It is allowed if you are holding a beer. :lol:
-
Correct me I am wrong and not having my rulebook handy, Unless the rule has been modified, CO2 IS ONLY LEGAL IN THE ENGINE BAY.
Halon and Coldfire are legal for both the engine bay and the cockpit, but make sure if using coldfire to not aim any nossles towards the driver. Bob
-
Dry Chem & CO2 only allowed in the engine compartment only
-
Yes, that is correct , only for engine bay use and cooling off your beer ! and Slim, I 'm not Drew ! But I'll still take that handshake ! :cheers:
-
Well , after talking to Mel at Universal Cylinder Service in Salt lake . And buying a bottle from him, I have the system plumbed with 5/16 steel tubing running to the front x-member just under the base of the radiator. Then with nozzles aimed at each side of the block.
Mel says the trick is to run small diameter lines to maintain the pressure, then hit the diffuser in the nozzle with pressure not volume . The bottle has lots of pressure, I mean LOTS. Then I built the spring loaded trigger mechanism , similar to the Halon set up we have had for years , and has always passed tech.
I am going to give the system a test and will plan on video taping it , since the bottle only costs 13 bucks to refill , hey, why not !
If you guys in Salt Lake have questions about fire systems , Talk to Mel, hes an old oval track racer and an ex fire marshall, knows his stuff and is fun to talk with ! I did about a half day's worth of chasing my tail before I found him.