Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Dave Haller on April 20, 2011, 10:50:50 PM
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Hey out there, I just received the new and more affordable HANS device from DJ Safety. It is pretty trick. I found with this device just like others I checked out the bolt will not reach through the helmet to mount the slide hook. It is about 1 1/2 inches short of coming through my new helmet. I bought the Bell Sport Helmet which has an extra thick inside liner. Anyone out there installed the system on a helmet like that? I could use some ideas. I was looking around for longer bolts but don't find any in the available kits out there. I think I need to recess the inside washer and bolt head but don't know if that will compromise the safety of the helmet. It was predrilled for the HANS type device.
Thanks for any help. 8-)
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Have you removed the liner to install the bolts? That's part of the procedure.
Pete
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If it was pre drilled then it is a SAH helmet and all SAH helmets should be the same, with my HANS and BELL helmet there is no reason to have to remove any padding or do anything from the inside. You just screw either the bolt and quick release system into the pre drilled place or srew the traditional clip on anchors on. If it was an older SA helmet then you would have to use the nut washer things on the inside of the helmet. I am not familiar with the DJ system but I would think that it works very similar....
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Dave,
Call Joe at DJ and ask for help. You do not want to get this wrong. I watched him install the studs on my sons helmet and they only go through the shell not any of the padding. He had to slip the threaded washer under the padding and thread the stud into it.
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Thanks, I'll call Joe at DJ's. The liner in the helmet is pretty thick and I don't see where I can lift it to get underneath without damaging something.
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Got them mounted last night, easier than I was thinking.
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Got them mounted last night, easier than I was thinking.
You have too much on your mind as of late.
:-D
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Dave H.... I started reading this thread and you had me worried about special ways to mount these things and ....
I am glad to hear it was easier than you at first thought!
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Hey out there, I just received the new and more affordable HANS device from DJ Safety. It is pretty trick. I found with this device just like others I checked out the bolt will not reach through the helmet to mount the slide hook.
SFI has published an anouncement about counterfeit bolts! Even though "SFI" is etched on the bolts they are counterfeit. I would make sure of the manufacturing pedigree.
http://www.sfifoundation.com
Thanx for the info about the Bell sport.
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The paragraph on counterfeit bolts is hard to find. To save you time, here is the SFI anouncement.
COUNTERFEIT HANS POST ANCHORS DISCOVERED
On August 19, 2009 and August 21, 2009, HANS Performance Products issued press releases regarding helmet post anchors it discovered to be counterfeit. For more information click on and follow this link: http://hansdevice.com/Anchor-Replacement. These counterfeit post anchors bear an "SFI" etching in the metal itself. SFI has not tested or approved these counterfeit post anchors and therefore they are not approved for usage in any motorsports activity or event covered by SFI ratings and standards. For their own safety, SFI encourages all members of the racing community to examine their helmet post anchors very carefully and contact a HANS dealer or representative if they have any questions about the part. Any companies manufacturing, marketing, distributing or selling these counterfeit products are hereby on notice that they must immediately exercise all necessary means to locate and remove these counterfeit post anchors from any and all usage in motorsports activites or else risk their continued approved participating in SFI programs.
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Counterfeiting the bolts.....just what level will people like this stoop to?.....When you begin to think that "they" can't stoop any lower, they surprise you.... I would put the conterfeiters of the type of parts in the same category as pedophiles! And I hope that law enforcement is on their trail as this sort of stuff could be the precursor to someone (or many people) needlesly dying!
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Counterfeiting the bolts.....just what level will people like this stoop to?.....When you begin to think that "they" can't stoop any lower, they surprise you.... I would put the conterfeiters of the type of parts in the same category as pedophiles! And I hope that law enforcement is on their trail as this sort of stuff could be the precursor to someone (or many people) needlesly dying!
Actually happens frequently in the airplane industry.... it is not necessarily the bolts are bad, they just have not been certified. They make one batch and it gets certed, the next the same, the third, no cert and somehow they get mixed together.
Marked with SFI... they may have been making them and certing but the recent batch they didn't pay the SFI.... sound familiar....
Oh, in airplanes, they take them all out and get new ones... usually costs a fortune and somebody gets sued...
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It could be like "bogus parts" on aircraft, or it could be our oriental friends being "industrious".
Hard to say.
As for "how low will they stoop", you have to remember, the people doing that aren't stooping, they're reaching up.
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Yep been happening for years, in all categories of high strength fasteners.
Even major manufactures have been snookered on this one, only batch by batch inspection and random testing will catch them.
It was serious enough that Carrol Smith in his book "Nuts Bolts Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook" published in 1990 mentions it on the first page of chapter 4, (page 53) and also mentions the issue of user responsibility regarding part inspection again later in the book on page 194. He strongly suggested sticking with aircraft certified parts from well known suppliers like Aircraft Spruce that are buying direct from the certifying manufacture, or a company like ARP that does 100% in house manufacture and quality control.
It has been going on for decades and I would bet a good sum of money every car out on the salt has a bolt in its structure that does not meet its rated strength.
It was most common in the high strength fasteners like grade 8 and above bolts sold in consumer outlets. Stamping a grade 8 or higher mark on the bolt head leads lots of folks to blindly assume they are superior for any application and spend far more than the bolt is worth to get that "perceived value". In fact many of these bolts are highly suspect and may meet tensile strength tests but fail due to lack of ductility or some other specification being out of tolerance, like thread form, diameter etc.
I strongly encourage racers to read up on counterfeit bolts and do some soul searching about where they buy their fasteners for critical applications, that absolutely demand the best fastener you can put in the hole.
Larry
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Note that the hardware warning came from HANS and not DJ Safety. This is how these stories get mixed up on the interweb thingy :roll:
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Actually, it was announced by SFI and is on their web site. HANS does not certify hardware. SFI does.
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Since fasteners are often in life threatening assemblies consumers awareness is critical.
I once purchased a batch of bolts for a critical application from a quality American supplier that we audited and self-certified. They were an outstanding supplier for years. We required certs with all fasteners even though it cost a little bit more. Luckily, we tested an application and had a catastrophic failure. Lucky . . . because it was a test, and not real-life with humans. Our design required grade 5 bolts due to their better elongation. An investigation showed some deception and a lot of ignorance along the audit trail back to the manufacturer. The bolts were marked grade 5 but actually tested at a higher tensile strength and brittleness. The Taiwan manufacturer had manufactured to grade 5 specs and came in a little low on tensile strength. They re-ran the batch through heat treat to increase the tensile a bit more. They all met the grade 5 tensile strength. Our American supplier also tested and accepted the tensile. The kid doing the test failed to record the elongation and only recorded the breaking point. Since strength was better than our required grade 5 everyone thought they were giving us a superior product. The Taiwan source also was not certified. They had fraudulently used the symbol from a certified manufacturer and that is why our American supplier thought they were legitimate. This case never went to trial because nobody was hurt and all our costs were covered.
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Saltfever;
I like to use MIL & aerospace surplus hardware when I can. The MIL/aero stuff that I've accumulated over the years was made before counterfeiting became a widespread problem. Also, those fasteners are comprehensively specified with size tolerances and strength specs. I'm very leery of "Grade 8" fasteners but I use them when I must. It's just that you are depending on too many unknowns with "SAE" stuff. Bolts made by SPS, Allen, Carr, etc are only "industrial" grade stuff but I've found them to be excellent quality to date. A few years ago I bought a packet of ARP hex nuts and found one nut that was missing the threads-- just a smooth round hole. Not inspiring quality.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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A few years ago I bought a packet of ARP hex nuts and found one nut that was missing the threads-- just a smooth round hole. Not inspiring quality.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I would've thought more of a quality control issue
G
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If anyone is interested, I have a brand new, size large, Safety Solutions Rage R3 for sale. Paid $686, will sell for $525.
John
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I agree with Stainless, I've done a lot of work in the nuclear industry, and it is the same story as the aircraft industry. The suspect bolt problem is the same, lots of paper work, and lots of increased expenses. The worst part is that most of the expenses come from someone keeping their job. Your having a coronary wondering if your going to get your bolts while the paper work is sitting in some nerds in basket. When you finally get the bolts they are made in China, they just do not have the suspect markings. :-o
Steve
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When I worked in China I sent one of the guys to the local hardware store to get some grade 5 6mm bolts to practice - learn - how to use a torque wrench. They had never used one before.
We clamped a bolt in the vise and torqued the nut to what i though was a low setting... pow! I would have expected a regular bolt from my local hardware store in the states would not have broken. Well we broke a lot of bolts that day.
Geo
Then there's the spark plug story...
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Then there's the spark plug story...
Agggggghhhhhhh
I had a young bloke working for me in the bike shop I'm glad I don't own anymore.
He was putting plugs in a CBR600 of some description and had been doing up this one plug for a little too long
The good news was that it had broken off and we were able to get the broken bit out without too much fuss
He didn't stay long
I have to do some work on my Dads Caterpillar D8 this weekend involving the track tensioners
This thread helped convince him that genuine CAT bolts were a good idea.
Hang on , have we hijacked another thread
G
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Almost done with the hijack. :-D
The spark plugs were packaged in "factory" boxes. Toyota IIRC at a parts store, not the dealer. The plugs looked good at first glance but after a while with them laying bare on the counter they were not quite right. Logo on the upper part of the plug was not as crisp, edges not exact, etc. So I asked for a heat range further away and looked into the lower part of the plug. Asked for another heat range of the same manufacturer. All were marked as the boxes were and were what I asked for... they were all the same heat range. All made to one specification yet marked differently to cover the manufacturers range.
We did not buy the plugs. This happened with cigarettes, liquor, clothing, everything! We did lots of shopping and little buying.
Geo
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:? :? :? I thought this was supposed to be about Head Restraints.
And on that subject, I just got mine from Autopower, and it works better than expected. No problem getting in or out, and easy to use.
:cheers: to DJ, Ed
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It was about head restraints but I bought a box of Champion plugs and one didn't have any threads, just smooth. Got mad and took it back.
Should have kept it for show-n-tell.
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I don't want to hijack the thread, but I do have a head/shoulder restraint question.
Is it acceptave to use this Kirkey system, along with the DJ restraint, if I mount it so that it cannot 'flex'? I'm looking at the 'short' system, so that the driver can exit easy.
http://www.kirkeyracing.com/index.php?link=browse&code=Restraints
Thank you
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3.A.3 Driver’s Helmet Support:
A forward, side and rear helmet support system shall be used in all vehicles.
Forward movement: All cars and motorcycle streamliners shall have an engineered and tested SFI spec 38.1 type head and neck restraint system.
I guess if it complies with SFI spec 38.1 and
Lateral movement: The seat or roll cage structure shall provide restriction to lateral head movement of less than 2 in. per side inclusive of structure deflection, and at a minimum extend to the forward most portion of the helmet
the answer is yes
Although looking at how the rule is written
All cars and motorcycle streamliners
Maybe a comma
All cars, and motorcycle streamliners
Just there and the rule reads differently
G
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When I worked in China I sent one of the guys to the local hardware store to get some grade 5 6mm bolts to practice - learn - how to use a torque wrench. They had never used one before.
We clamped a bolt in the vise and torqued the nut to what i though was a low setting... pow! I would have expected a regular bolt from my local hardware store in the states would not have broken. Well we broke a lot of bolts that day.
Geo
Was that screw a 5.8 or 8.8 grade? Metric 8.8 grade screws are like grade 5.
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3.A.3 Driver’s Helmet Support:
A forward, side and rear helmet support system shall be used in all vehicles.
Forward movement: All cars and motorcycle streamliners shall have an engineered and tested SFI spec 38.1 type head and neck restraint system.
I guess if it complies with SFI spec 38.1 and
Lateral movement: The seat or roll cage structure shall provide restriction to lateral head movement of less than 2 in. per side inclusive of structure deflection, and at a minimum extend to the forward most portion of the helmet
the answer is yes
Although looking at how the rule is written
All cars and motorcycle streamliners
Maybe a comma
All cars, and motorcycle streamliners
Just there and the rule reads differently
G
Salient lesson right there folks.....however I reckon the plural rules out what you were thinking Colonel.....
"All car and motorcycle streamliners" means something different to "All cars and motorcycle streamliners"
herendethelesson
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I saw what looked to be LOTS of DJ head restraints in Mazoomas pictures of Elmo on the HAMB. Any first hand feedback after last weekend?
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A comma has been placed to clear the sentence.
DW
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A comma has been placed to clear the sentence.
DW
Did I miss something? :?
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See reply #29.
DW
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We were running the Bucket List Dream Avanti at Elmo last weekend. In tech the "FIRST" time we noticed a lot of people failing the bailout. Lot's of people unhappy that the work they did on the lateral restrain system was no satisfactory with the tech people. We too ran into that issue after adding five iches of metal last year and having to add more this year.
We tried to use a Hans Sport model device and found that it will not work on our car. Our seat design will not allow for it's use. After talking ot Mike Cook we got in touch with Joe from DJ Safety. His device worked very well in our car. The difference was very big. Before the bailout procedure we had Lee Kennedy inspect our car with the Dj device on our driver and strapped in the car. He signed off our log book for the use of the DJ device. Our driver passed the bailout procedure.
I watched Joe install the nut/washers in the helmet and he had to push them into the helmet under the padding with a screwdriver in order to get them lined up so that the bolt could be inserted. It took him about two minutes per side to installed the pin/bolts. I would recommend the DJ device as after being the crew chief and persoanlly strapping in our driver for three runs the device looks like it will do the job. The only issue I had was changing my routine to accommodate the added hooks. By run three I was comfortable with the proceedure.
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A comma has been placed to clear the sentence.
DW
Thanks Dan
G
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Thanks for your well written account!
We were running the Bucket List Dream Avanti at Elmo last weekend. In tech the "FIRST" time we noticed a lot of people failing the bailout. Lot's of people unhappy that the work they did on the lateral restrain system was no satisfactory with the tech people. We too ran into that issue after adding five iches of metal last year and having to add more this year.
We tried to use a Hans Sport model device and found that it will not work on our car. Our seat design will not allow for it's use. After talking ot Mike Cook we got in touch with Joe from DJ Safety. His device worked very well in our car. The difference was very big. Before the bailout procedure we had Lee Kennedy inspect our car with the Dj device on our driver and strapped in the car. He signed off our log book for the use of the DJ device. Our driver passed the bailout procedure.
I watched Joe install the nut/washers in the helmet and he had to push them into the helmet under the padding with a screwdriver in order to get them lined up so that the bolt could be inserted. It took him about two minutes per side to installed the pin/bolts. I would recommend the DJ device as after being the crew chief and persoanlly strapping in our driver for three runs the device looks like it will do the job. The only issue I had was changing my routine to accommodate the added hooks. By run three I was comfortable with the proceedure.
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Mine got delivered a few minutes ago. I'll know soon. Not tonight, though. I have to finish welding in my belt mounts and hacking holes in my seat. Wayno
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Sent my helmet to Joe so he could do a proper job on the studs, I figured it would be gone for at least four weeks, since El Mirage was that weekend. Got it back today one week later with the harness. :-D
Steve