Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Cajun Kid on December 04, 2010, 04:18:26 PM
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I know the 2011 Lateral Support rule has a bunch of us wondering what to do and how in the heck we can get in and out of our cars if we complied with the rule "as written" Here are some pics that may help.
1. Yes lateral supports that meet the rule wording are available, these pics show the right side support on one of my seats, you can see that the support does extend past the chin bar of the helmet. However, If I used this length support on the drivers side, I would not be able to get in or out.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest030.jpg)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest029.jpg)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest031.jpg)
The Head side supports on my other containment seat does Not go 100% past the chin bar of helmet, but it sure seems like more than enough side length to keep the head supported. I could not imagine an inspector questioning this support at all...
I would hope this is enough to meet the rule as any more length and I could not get in or out of the car.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest016.jpg)
Charles
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Here are a few more pics that show how the seat design and depth has Hip, Rib, Shoulder and Head Supports built in and coordinates with the proper belt and HNR installation.
Keep in mind it is sure hard to take these pics and hold or keep helmet where my head would go all by myself, so hope they are not to blurry for you to see the details.
less than 1" side to side clearance, so well under the 2" per side rule wording
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest028.jpg)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest027.jpg)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest018.jpg)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest010.jpg)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest008.jpg)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest005.jpg)
Any questions or if anyone needs a differant pic or a measurement just let me know.
Charles
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I know the 2011 Lateral Support rule has a bunch of us wondering what to do and how in the heck we can get in and out of our cars if we complied with the rule "as written" Here are some pics that may help.
1. Yes lateral supports that meet the rule wording are available, these pics show the right side support on one of my seats, you can see that the support does extend past the chin bar of the helmet. However, If I used this length support on the drivers side, I would not be able to get in or out.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest030.jpg)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest029.jpg)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest031.jpg)
The Head side supports on my other containment seat does Not go 100% past the chin bar of helmet, but it sure seems like more than enough side length to keep the head supported. I could not imagine an inspector questioning this support at all...
I would hope this is enough to meet the rule as any more length and I could not get in or out of the car.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest016.jpg)
Charles
Thanks for the fotos Charles, If those supports are required in cars with shorter doors a lot of racers will have trouble.
Thanks to Dan, SCTA is taking a closer look. It's noticable that the foward part of support drops below vison.
Also if 2 inches is required for the full length would your seat pass?
JL222
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Charles I really appreciate your input on this forum. Great pictures and hopefully will help define what is needed.
George :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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My biggest problem is that if I lean forward, my triple chins hit my front porch and neither want to budge. Next year I am pushing for a spandex fire suit rule........................ 8-)
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JL222,
YES, My seat would pass the the 2" side to side rule the entire length of the side supports,,, it is hard to see in those pics but when the helmet is centered where It would be when I am belted in.... there is just a smidge over 1'' per side clearance,, it is tight in there... I do have 3 lengths of supports available,,, short, med and long.
The pic with my hand holding the left , driver side support and helmet (the one in the Stude) is the medium length side supports, which go "almost" to the forward edge of the chin bar.. very very close to 100%.... the long length is shown in the Vicky on the right side... No way the long length would work on my cars for the left (entry side of the seat).. I would bet ANY car with a support long enough to go to past the chin bar of helmet would make it just about impossible to get in and out of for most all drivers.
As you can see my cars all have side supports and I used them and HNR's well before any rules told me to.
I agree with the need to use them.
What I think is the wording of the rule needs to be changed as well as the spec's... there is no need for the side support to go to the end or past the chin bar. at least 1/2 way to 66 % is enough, they could use a percentage 60% ie for the distance spec, or simply say side supports must extend at least to the mid point from the chin bar to the eye port opening or the face shield hinge point etc...and supply a drawing in the book.
Charles
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JL222,
YES, My seat would pass the the 2" side to side rule the entire length of the side supports,,, it is hard to see in those pics but when the helmet is centered where It would be when I am belted in.... there is just a smidge over 1'' per side clearance,, it is tight in there... I do have 3 lengths of supports available,,, short, med and long.
The pic with my hand holding the left , driver side support and helmet (the one in the Stude) is the medium length side supports, which go "almost" to the forward edge of the chin bar.. very very close to 100%.... the long length is shown in the Vicky on the right side... No way the long length would work on my cars for the left (entry side of the seat).. I would bet ANY car with a support long enough to go to past the chin bar of helmet would make it just about impossible to get in and out of for most all drivers.
As you can see my cars all have side supports and I used them and HNR's well before any rules told me to.
I agree with the need to use them.
What I think is the wording of the rule needs to be changed as well as the spec's... there is no need for the side support to go to the end or past the chin bar. at least 1/2 way to 66 % is enough, they could use a percentage 60% ie for the distance spec, or simply say side supports must extend at least to the mid point from the chin bar to the eye port opening or the face shield hinge point etc...and supply a drawing in the book.
Charles
Yea Charles, I agree with those possible distances, and hopefully SCTA will also.
JL222 :cheers:
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(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/Lateral%20Support%20Test/HelmetTest030copy1.jpg)
The distance could be taken at the eyeport opening or the shield hinge point, see furtherest left red arrow, another at the chin bar (far right red arrow) then take 50% of that is the middles red arrow and then say the side supports must at least go to that point,,, (white arrow)
The arrows on my pics are not perfect,,, I am no cimputer whiz,, just thinking a picture may be better than all these words,
So if the side support stopped at the P in ISP,,, that should be enough and allow us room to get in and out,
Charles
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CK, you did not specifically say that that was the 2010 Snell but it must be, if you took more than 2" out of the width---thanks for the very revelant pictures.
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Sparky,,, the Lid in the pic is my old Snell 90 Helmet. The 2.09 I spoke of was from the Side Support FRAME... not the Hard Cell Foam or velour/nomex covers. I thought the 2" excluded any pad or cover,, so all is well now, I am about 1.125 " per side in the pics,,, When my Snell 2010 comes in, I am sure it is a bigger helmet than the SA1990 in the pics. I could have used my current SA2005 but it was packed away in the other shop and it was snowing when I took the time to make these pics. (cold and lazy today)
If the SCTA revokes the rule or modifies it I am STILL going to use as long a side support as I have and can that will allow me in and out of the car. (mine works good for support and ingress / egress as is now is plenty long now.
Charles
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CK,
Is that the angle that the helmet is at when you are wearing it and in the seat? It looks like you would be looking at the ceiling. If doesn't go at that angle and the forward part of the helmet will be rotated down a little all of your concerns should go away (and hopefully the scrutineers too).
The group that put the rule book out do a good job on a really difficult task. There are gray areas but a little common sense will take care of most of them.
Harvey
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Keep drinking the Kool Aid ...
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CK,
Is that the angle that the helmet is at when you are wearing it and in the seat? It looks like you would be looking at the ceiling. If doesn't go at that angle and the forward part of the helmet will be rotated down a little all of your concerns should go away (and hopefully the scrutineers too).
The group that put the rule book out do a good job on a really difficult task. There are gray areas but a little common sense will take care of most of them.
Harvey
Harvey, it was hard to hold the Helmet in place by myself and take the pics,,, you are correct when the Helmet is up a bit and angled chin down a bit more , where it would be when on my head,,, then YES in my current set up using the MID LENGTH side supports I am within the new rules... I knew I was LEGAL for the New Rules,,,,
The reason for my posts and pics was not to plead my case, it was to
1. Help Other car guys and 2. To HELP the RULES makers "SEE" what we face.
Charles
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Well, Charles, what if you end up with the driver's side of the car down? Need to have an "exitable" length on the left side also. I, too, think that this rule change has not been thought all the way through. Hopefully, DW is watching this thread, too, and will help to carry competitor input to the board. vic
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Vic,
With the wide open unobstructed (no walls or fences to lean up against) courses we race on, I do not think even after a crash the car could end up stationary and balanced on the drivers side, or the passenger side. (short of a Joey Chitwood stunt show, I did not feel this situation would occur)..
The most likely situation would be a spin resulting in lift causing the car to flip, roll or tumble... coming to rest on the roof or the wheels. Not likely on it's side. We did design the cage with this possibility in mind,, so that it would not lay flat on its side,, also with a middle roof bar that is raised above the A to B bars. promoting a "Roll" back to the wheels.
But then again this is just all theory,, every crash situation is differant.
So YES you are correct the side supports should not limit exit from either side. On the Stude my side helmet supports are the same length on both sides. They are the length that does meet the new rule wording and also are as long as they can be allowing me to get in and out quickly.
As to passenger side exit ?? Look in a bunch of Race Cars,,,, LSR, Drag, Various Circle Track cars, Road Race, SCTA, Mud race etc,,,, I think what you will find is most all of them have much more "stuff" on that side making exit or extraction much more difficult than from the drivers side. But I know you knew this already.
Charles
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You have lost a lot of weight Charles.
DW
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You have lost a lot of weight Charles.
DW
DW, :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: yeah it looks like I am a pogo stick figure LOL.
Now get that rule revised and quit having so much fun,,, LOL,,,, :cheers: :cheers:
Charles
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Charles... can you buy those extentions separately from the seat and the cost?
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Charles... can you buy those extentions separately from the seat and the cost?
Yes you can, but it is designed as a system/kit to provide lateral head and shoulder support, Mine is the Stealth System from ISP. you can choose from several length side supports. On my Stude I have the mid length on both sides.
Here is it coming out of the box.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/IMG_0608-1.jpg)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/IMG_0606.jpg)
Shoulder Supports and Head Rest
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/IMG_0639.jpg)
Complete
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/ispcotjpgw180h2241.jpg)
have more pics just hard to find them all.
Charles
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Charles .... I like that way your seat looked in the car .... does that seat give good peripheral view at a track like Maxton where you have to turn out?
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Charles .... I like that way your seat looked in the car .... does that seat give good peripheral view at a track like Maxton where you have to turn out?
Joe, yes I can see 120 + degrees maybe a bit more when belted in... not a full view out either side window, but enough out the front windshield to make the U turn at end of long shut down. Now with the Vicky (has longer right side support) No vision to the right at all between 180 degrees back to 125 degrees.
That is another reason I posted the pics of the seat in the Stude,,, those side supports are as long as you can use to have the needed peripheral vision and be able to get in and out of the car.
See you in April,.,,, You Pushing me again ???
Charles
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it would be my pleasure ... looking forward to it ...
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Thanks Charles for the excellent information on your supports.
I have been looking at several Racing seat manufacurers web sites comparing the supports offered. Quite a few people have brought up vision impairment issues with the head supports.
I found this item on the Kirkey site and it seems it might reduce the vision problem significantly.
http://www.kirkeyracing.com/index.php?link=details&wh=10&pn=98811
Also several have mentioned problems may be encountered exiting the vehicle wearing the HANS (HNR) device with the new head support rules. ISP had several HNR devices that would unbuckle with the safely belts letting it stay temporarily attached to the seat (via velcro) allowing the driver easier egress from the vehicle.
I am not advocating the use of these manufacturers products, just letting some know that there are solutions out there for some of the issues that are being brought up due to the new rules.
See Ya in April at Maxton
Bud Johnson
LSR newb
'29 Ford Coupe build in-progress
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Bud, good info and thanks for posting... now where are the pics and updates on your 29 Ford Build ?
Charles
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We talked to some seat manufacturers at IMIS last week and they knew about the new lateral rules. They have extensions or modifications available (Butler specifically) that would make the seat legal.
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This year in Tech we where told of the forthcoming rules for the Lateral supports, however the inspector also said that a net would be allowed, like the one the sprintcar guys use, also it would be only required on the right hand side , since the window net would accomplish the same goal. However I have not seen any language to back this up . any opinions ?
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The seminar with Stand 21 and Dr. John Melvin also mentioned the inside net on the right side.
They did mention that the less rigid seat containment "ears" would work very well in conjunction with the inside net properly placed.
One advantage could be having the ability to exit the vehicle through the right side by dropping the net and bending the seat ear out of the way in case of fire on left side.
I haven't seen anything written and enforcement could be subjective.
John