Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: landracing on October 19, 2005, 04:56:33 PM
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This poll is for would you like to see the SCTA meeting minutes posted on this website for all LSR to see....
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My vote is YES
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It's been established that any member can and does have access, so why let the rest of the world stir up crap that doesn't concern them. As to BNI discounts -- it may make some money but it takes a lot of SCTA people to run it. And if the SCTA profits a little, that's okay in my opinion. It's a wash.
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Yes!
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I agree with Stan. Change my vote to No.
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You can express your opinion here by replying, but make sure to click on the poll above yes or no or undecided.
I cannot change the results once you vote it is done on results, however you can reply to message..
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It's been established that any member can and does have access, so why let the rest of the world stir up crap that doesn't concern them. As to BNI discounts -- it may make some money but it takes a lot of SCTA people to run it. And if the SCTA profits a little, that's okay in my opinion. It's a wash.
Stan,
You are correct if SCTA profits its ok. I dont think the viewing of the SCTA minutes is about profit or loss its about people just want to know whats going on, thats just my opinion
Jon
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I voted undecided.
It's not that I'm undecided, just that what I would like was not an option. I think the minutes should be posted on the SCTA-BNI website as all official documents should be, not posted here. If the board were unwilling to do that, and agreed to let landracing show them then they could go up here.
While we are at it, I think the bylaws of the SCTA & BNI should be posted on the SCTA-BNI website as well.
I'm sure that all this information is technically available to the members, but to me the question should be "is it readily available" and thats what a website can do very well.
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I would read the SCTA minutes if posted.
Al Booton
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Tell me again why the meeting minutes that have an impact on all the entries at Bonneville are not more available.
How is it possible the DLRA has the SCTA rulebook available on their web site.
Would I bore you with examples or can you take it from there ? :roll:
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my vote is in, YES!
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I think thats the point. None of this is available electronically via the SCTA website for members or non-members. I think that it is reasonable that someone advanced the SCTA into at least the early 1990's technology. SCTA policy and financials however do not belong here. Rules changes, rules considerations, protests and the other things we have to log onto this site to find out anyway.
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I'd sure like to know what's "in the wind" before the new rules are (finally) published. I know I don't have a vote in the SCTA, but just maybe some of the views expressed here will be heard when changes are considered.
(That's a Yes vote)
Sam
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Wether you agree to confirm or deny it, the SCTA meetings have an impact at Bonneville. Rules and regs and this and thats all stem from El Mirage which also will pertain to Bonneville....
And I would think that if I were permitted to have the SCTA minutes posted online, the SCTA website will have them also.....
So im sure it would be an all or none deal....
Jon
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This is from a post on another topic but applies to this poll of Meeting minutes posted.....
For example during the Sept meeting they discussed how John Rush was doing better from El Mirage accident and moved to new hospital.
BNI membership for USA is to remain the same, International rates would increase to $80 for them canadians and Mexico and $100 for all other countries
"The SCTA property management is all SCTA and the projected costs to complete the property development is about $180,000.00, discussion. About $59,000.00 has been spent to date. "
HEre is some El MIrage property news:
"SCTA Property - Jim Dunn reported that the mobile home is ready to be moved next week, the skirt h as been removed and the pre-inspections have been done. It took several tries to get done. The trailer will be mounted on a permanent foundation as decided by the Board. The projected costs by Jim were $256,000.00 including the steel building, well, and propane tanks. etc. discussion. The mobile home costs the trailer park about $65,000.00, the space rent will go from $600.00 per month to $900.00 per month. The mobile home costs SCTA $7,500.00 plus closing costs."
MOtorcycle tech rules meeting was upcoming.
I sure would like to know what is proposed in the rules meetings???
Manghelli held a wire party and Jim jenson made some new spools for the wire.
Great info thanks guys.
"Inspection Equipment Doug Robinson asked about the ultrasonic roll bar thickness measuring machine. The purchase was turned down by the Board. Doug found one for $800.00, can used for thickness measuring/ corrosion damage checking also."
Some other good info, maybe someone on the east coast has an outlet???
This is information we need to get on the website. This is great information and wouldn't everybody like to see these. We sometimes just want to read about whats happening in our LSR world, when we are not racing....
Jon
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Jon,
In no way should the SCTA minutes be disclosed on this board or any other. What SCTA does is not for the world to know. There are certain things you ask in private, without the world as an audience.
If you are an SCTA member, all of this information is available to you. If you miss a meeting call your club President or Rep and ask him or her to fill you in. If you are not an SCTA member then become one, that way you have a voice. If you don't go to club meetings don't complain, it is your own fault.
The clubs have a hard enough time trying to get people to come to meetings. The purpose of having club meetings is to relay, through the club reps what has gone on at the SCTA meetings, or by the same token if the club feels the need to bring something up at an SCTA meeting the club rep can do this also.
People need to get involved, and being involved does not mean posting subjects on message boards. Being involved means joining one of the SCTA's car clubs, and the SCTA. It means going to meetings, running for office, pulling your duties, and contributing to your club.
What I would be in favor of is a SCTA public relations person who could post on the SCTA site, any new rules changes etc. as they occur. Remember this is a volunteer organization. Regards, Tom
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I guess that if you lived on the east coast and did not race on the dirt
you couild join one of the clubs and at least get a newsletter to see
whats going on.
Or maybe more info could be included in the BNI newsletter.
People want information and somtimes the net is not the best place
to publish it.
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If there is something wrong with the way it reads, there is something wrong.
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In a scientific search for an answer I went to the NHRA and NASCAR message boards. Did I find the minutes of their board meetings and financial disclosures posted and open for discussion? No way!
What makes you think that no matter which way this poll goes it will result in a policy change from the current administration? The poll for traction control went real well.
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I have deleted my post, which was written out of aggression and bad interpretation...
I simply want to state that many have contributed to the SCTA in some form or another, across the nation and world and should have same rights to information as a SCTA member.
The right to know what is discussed and whats on the table which effects bonneville racing and the organization.
Jon
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In a scientific search for an answer I went to the NHRA and NASCAR message boards. Did I find the minutes of their board meetings and financial disclosures posted and open for discussion? No way!
What makes you think that no matter which way this poll goes it will result in a policy change from the current administration? The poll for traction control went real well.
Dan are the NHRA and Nascar non-profit organizations? Nope, of course they dont have to disclose.
And as for the poll, I dont expect it to do anything but make a poll...
I have had tons of emails supporting the poll, and two rather hated and threatning emails about it. Is this what LSR comes down to. When a debate is made and simple question is asked it comes down to threatning emails.... Both have come from California....
Jon
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Publicly held corporations may often limit the attendance at a scheduled meeting but the minutes that are required by law are a public document.
A rulebook might have copyright protection but meeting minutes do not.
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Jon, I think you might have missed the point from Desotoman. He didn?t say ?you? he said ?people? . . . meaning plural, as in many people. Until I read his post I was going to vote yes. However, I think he was slanting the drift to people like me. I don?t run a car and I don?t belong to a club so I am not an SCTA member. However, I have been to Bonneville for the last 8 years (crewing for the past 5) and to various EM meets during the last 6 years. You know the drill?with an obscene job workload, family stuff, yada, yada, yada, I never wanted to join a club until I had my car ready. I simply couldn?t drive 1,200 miles RT to do patrol when my time was so precious, and in particular, if I wasn?t racing. It just hurts too much to be so close and not be racing. Work on my car has been slow because of my lack of time (or inability to prioritize my life!). The more I have been around the SCTA events the more I see how much I don?t know. It is now coming to a point where I am motivated to join a club simply for my lack of information or access to it. SCTA can?t maintain its vitality without people and the clubs need people. Having information filter down through the clubs is just one more reason for joining and it also legitimatizes the club?s importance in the organizational chain. I am glad to see you get a copy of the minutes. With all the work you do, you deserve them. My contributions are about zero. I would love to see the minutes, however, the people that are proactive are more deserving. If one wants to be that close to the inner workings of the SCTA, then get closer to SCTA. . . join them!
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"Dan are the NHRA and Nascar non-profit organizations? Nope, of course they dont have to disclose."
Actually Jon the NHRA is a non-profit.
However I do wish the time and place (the place changes every other meeting) for the Reps meetings were on the SCTA site. Yes I can & do call to find out, it would just be a little eaiser.
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Dyno,
You are correct and I stand corrected on a topic I should have researched before I made the post. I apologize...
NHRA is Non_Profit
:shock:
Nascar is for profit...
Jon
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I am in internet junky I must say..... Starbucks keeps me going....
I want to express this THE SCTA AND BNI are both the greatest organizations in the world to me. I love them to death....
Im not out to get anybody, I like to get people involved...
I just like to have information available to me and the rest of the racers thats all. I want to keep people informed. This website is a information tool to find information that people want... A message board for people to ask questions and get answers.... Look at pictures, build a car, come race with the GREATEST bunch of people in the world....
Just receive my third piece of hate mail, that saddens me......
The organizations want me to keep mouth shut ill sit here and act the fool,,, hate mail isnt what I want, just information to keep racers informed.
Jon
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Wow Jon... hadn't seen this pole until today.... been busy I guess... Another Heated discussion on Landracing.com.... COOL... it gets opinions out in the open and lets folks know what's going on... It also gives all of us an opportunity to see the inter-workings of the SCTA... and that has some merit.
As a co-owner of the ECTA, I can see merit on both sides of the argument. There are some things that Joe, Tonya and I talk about which are better left unsaid to the public... Like when a single competitor makes a butthead out of themselves.... if that member cools down and rethinks things he has the chance to change his attitude and it's not a matter of public record that he was a butthead in the first place... Long and the short of it... keeping some of the Day to Day stuff private will always have merit...
Money... I'm a fan of keeping all of that above board and totally public... anyone who wants to can call me or Tonya and get particulars on what our current financial situation is. When you take someones money they have a right to know what happens to it... ( personal opinion ) I don't think that the ECTA needs huge money in it's coffers.... it only needs what is required to run a couple of events in advance and past that point we need to design in ways of limiting the income... or giving it back to the racers by way of reduced entry fee's and such.
Whatever happens with your Poll here Jon.... I doubt it will play into the final answer on what happens with the board minutes... Keep in mind we are a small segment of the overall membership of BNI or the SCTA... ( those of us that check in to the internet that is ) and the SCTA isn't going to make a decision on this based on our opinion... ( and that 's not a bad thing... just the way it oughta be really )
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Another NO vote :wink:
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While I'm new to this and love to soak up any information related to land speed racing I'd have to say NO. I go along with the idea that if you want to know about the inner workings then join.
On the other hand it?s pretty hard to attend meetings from across the country or even Utah. If I do get more into it and join I?m not sure how I could have any input.
I?m just thankful that they are there to put on the show!
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Well, here is one way to stay uniformed. I made the mistake of sending $30 bucks for a subscription to S.C.T.A. Racing News last year, and after repeated requests, have recieved to date one lousy issue, which was coverage of the Christmas Party. Perhaps my money bought a drink or two for one of the fat old men pictured. lol................... :(
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I believe the information would be helpful. I joined BNI a few years back, and am building a car but still a while off from having anything to run. Since I joined, I have been asking many questions at Bonneville and lurking on this site to get information. When I joined BNI, I didn't know the difference between BNI and SCTA since the office I called handled both. I thought that I would get more information than what I'm getting, maybe I need to convert my membership? Isn't a membership to one include the other or do you need both?
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Depends on where you race. BNI covers events on the salt flats. SCTA cover events on the dirt at El Mirage.
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I would have told you about the Christmas party for $20 and sent you My copy of the book.
Because I don't drink, I could have used profit for entry fees.
Now what ?
Lets hope you can do better in the future.
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YES , i'd like to be able to read them to easily keep up with current events!
dad land
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When this was posted last year I said "no" and it still remains the same. Good response Desoto!
If you will remember, after the SCTA Board voted on the rule changes for 05 they were posted on the SCTA site right after the Board Meeting. I see no change for this year, I'm sure they will do it again.... The new requests will not be discussed until the Rules committee meeting in November...Some of the committees ei: coupes, roadster, special construction etc. are already discussing what has been given to them by Dan and will give their opinons during that meeting.
About 50% of the proposals never reach the Board for a vote because they are "personal adgendas" and the Rules committee nips them at their meeting.
Rules are rarely changed during the year and for the most part I could post the minutes for a 1958 meeting with a new date and 90% of the members would not know the difference. The more things change the more they remain the same.
After sitting in on reps and board meetings for 30 years I have, in no specific order, drank too much, fell asleep, got pissed off, ate too much, driven too far, and said "I gotta quit going"....
This forum is great but not a place for the SCTA or BNI minutes. Each year any member can look at or ask questions about the finances, and we get a copy of all money transactions at each meeting.
Good luck and hoping we have a great Bonneville next year..J.D.
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The motorcycle changes were done by the board in Dec. last year with out prior notice or participation by the membership.
We can start with the 5 year rule for tires that impacted the all of the entries with respect to liability, shown in the book, never approved by the board, taken back, and no notice to the entrants that were not party to the meeting information.
Your serve.
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After sitting in on reps and board meetings for 30 years I have, in no specific order, drank too much, fell asleep, got pissed off, ate too much, driven too far, and said "I gotta quit going"....
Well said JD
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After sitting in on reps and board meetings for 30 years I have, in no specific order, drank too much, fell asleep, got pissed off, ate too much, driven too far, and said "I gotta quit going"....
Well said JD
"Where ever you find yourself, there you are."
So what does it all mean ?
With 784 views and only 56 votes, does that mean that only voters are looking as much as 14 times.
Could it be that many don't care or don't vote.
The vote goes both ways you know. What is to prevent somebody from posting it anyway.
Wouldn't you rather see it on SCTA or here than someplace else that is less appropriate to the sport.
When I hear about somebody kicking and being dragged into the 80s, I wonder what all the noise is about.
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Jack D. and all:
I have been at the Board meeting for the last 10 years (voting once)where the Board voted on the proposals brought before it by the Car and M/C committees at their rules committee meetings. When the car committee meets I have watched the M/C committee meet in another room. I do not know who is picked for the M/C rules committee because I only sit in on the Car meeting
Each rule change brought to the Voting Board from the Rules Committees is discussed before the Voting Board votes. The Voting Board normally votes with the reccommendation of the committees. This is not always true but for the most part it goes that way. You learn to trust the folks who have volunteered their time to do what is best for the association whether it affects the entire association (safety) or just a class of vehicle.
If after a rule for the following year is past and a major problem comes up which was not thought of or who knows why, the Voting Board may resind the rule and wait for more information or leave it as is.
I did not follow what happened to the M/C tire ruling probably due to lack of interest. But the rule had to have been discussed by the M/C committee prior to the meeting or it would not have able to come to a vote. I do not have a "photographic mind" like some who write here. Everything said at the meeting isn't written down. If someone wants the job of secretary please let them step forward. Warren will gladly train his replacement.
It's no longer my serve, I've lost the match, (6-0, 6-0, 6-0) and I have left the court. JD
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This is sort of getting back to the discussions we had on this site about six or eight months ago, when Dan suggested we all (or at least some of us) should join member clubs in the Southland. I thought I was cutting a fat hog on the Info HiWay by subscribing to the SCTA News Letter (see my earlier post), and that was a bust and a half. I think what would be the easiest, and would ruffle the least amount of feathers, would be to have the Recording Secretary post a synopses of the most current meetings on this site. I don't think trying to get those of us who live in the boonies and know few if any club members is a viable option. We might accidentlly join Dolans Sex Perversion Club by mistake..............
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Jack is going to get a lot of e-mail for membership in Jack D's humpem club.
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The MC bunch is listed in the SCTA publication and the rules with respect to change requests are well established. The problem is the list is not valid and they don't even play by their own rules. There was a case of a particular rule that was challenged and the MC chair misspoke as to the origin of the rule. It was researched by many and his representation was wrong. We never heard from him again. In the days of the 5 year tire rule it presented a liability to the organization that it was not prepared for. It was never voted on by the board and when it was brought to their attention it was eliminated without prior notice to many that had already complied and was documented in the minuets.
The "Look at the birdie" defense won't fly.
There are more.
Jack
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I cant speak for anyone else on why they didnt vote and maybe Im a dumass but it took me about 6 tries to finally stumble on how to vote. Maybe it would be worth mentioning that you have to go to the post a reply section before the screen pops up that lets you vote. At least I think thats how I got to it.
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I think you have to remember it is the 'SCTA' not the 'USA salt flats racing association'..or whatever you might want to call it. it is not practical to be a member and be of any use if you don't live in southern california. Personally i could not get further away from SoCal unless i moved to maine or florida. Short of just sending a check what use would i be to a car club in SoCal. i am not going to drive or fly out to EM to do patrol duty. It would be more than a little problematic to participate in meetings as well. i can not afford 3 days a month and an aprroximate 1k per month to fly in rent a room and a car to sit in on a meeting either. i am up for solutions..
Dave
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... it is not practical to be a member and be of any use if you don't live in southern california. Personally i could not get further away from SoCal unless i moved to maine or florida. Short of just sending a check what use would i be to a car club in SoCal. i am not going to drive or fly out to EM to do patrol duty. It would be more than a little problematic to participate in meetings as well. i can not afford 3 days a month and an aprroximate 1k per month to fly in rent a room and a car to sit in on a meeting either. i am up for solutions..
Dave
Dave,
I think you hit the nail on the head. The BNI is run by the SCTA. The SCTA is run by the local So Cal clubs. Somebody who is not local to So Cal and runs only Bonneville has no official say in the matter unless they are willing to become active in the SCTA. Everytime someone says "you should go to more meetings" or "you should run for an office" is ASSUMING you are local and could participate on El Mirage operations.
I guess the real question is:
How does the BNI board propose that BNI-ONLY members stay active in the BNI political process? keeping in mind that BNI members are not only nationwide, they are worldwide.
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The flat World does not revolve around the So Cal Highboy Roadster.
A Honda in a Highboy just ain't right.
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As a true outsider I would not vote on this but if the SCTA/BNI wants (and it would be thier decision on this) to reach its members then it should use the internet.
BUT ... make sure that only the members have access to the minutes by password protecting the location. Why should I be permitted to read the minutes of a club that I do not belong to?
What is suggested by this topic is that the club inquestion has failed to reach the grass routes membership with information that could be important. Happens with a lot of similar clubs so this is not a particular 'flame'.
My two bob from far away!
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From across the pond or across the street, you must be a BNI member to run and are subject to all the rules and the victim of any changes in procedure they develop that is not published now.
The information is available to the public now if nothing else because the meetings are open .
E-mail does not represent a large cost and if you want a snail mail, it can be done at a cost for those that wish to have it.
You might compare it to Congress or a City Council.
Meeting that discuss legal response to a lawsuit and some personnel hiring and firing matters might be an exception to that.
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Somebody who is not local to So Cal and runs only Bonneville has no official say in the matter unless they are willing to become active in the SCTA. Everytime someone says "you should go to more meetings" or "you should run for an office" is ASSUMING you are local and could participate on El Mirage operations
John,
I see you are an SCTA member. How involved are you with the SCTA club you belong to? For example: How many club meetings did you attend this year etc.? Regards, Tom
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Tom, I think you are missing Johns point here. If you live in, say New Jersey, and are building a car for Bville, It would be nice to know of any impending rule changes, or event dates, as early as possible. You can't expect folks like that to be associate members, or to help work the events. I think that the SCTA owes it to racers like that to provide any information they can. You and I are fortunate to live in the Western half of the country, but even for me, the trip (including entry) is a two grand deal. For the really long distance guys, it would be a damn shame to have to make last minute changes due to rules or dates.....Bob
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John R is a So Cal guy- Bob! Go back to page 3 of this thread and see that the SCTA prints the changes right after the Board votes on them on the SCTA-BNI website. What more do you want???
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John,
I see you are an SCTA member. How involved are you with the SCTA club you belong to? For example: How many club meetings did you attend this year etc.? Regards, Tom
How involved? not very, not enough.
The number of meetings I have attended? too darn few, probably less than 10 in the last 2 years. But that should be apparent because I'm in the same club as you are (Sidewinders) and you didn't even know it!!!
I have pulled more duties at El Mirage than I have run on the course there.
But, You are missing my point. I am not saying all this because I can't get the info, I can. I am pointing out that the only reason I can get the info is because I live in SoCal and was in a position to attend the two mandatory club meetings so I could be voted into the club and because I am local I can perform my yearly mandatory duty. Once in the club, I am also in the SCTA and now my life is troublefree.
The point I am trying to make is still the same:
How does a BNI-only member, who does not live anywhere near SoCal get involved in the political side of the BNI-only events and have his opinion officially recognized?
...SCTA prints the changes right after the Board votes on them on the SCTA-BNI website. What more do you want???
But thats exactly the problem JD, BNI members don't get to know about the proposed changes while they're still just "proposed". Unless you are also an SCTA member, you cannot find out and let the board know you opinion on a subject before it gets voted on.
Regards,
John
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How many of the entries at Bonneville are BNI only ?
Tell me again how they are to see what is going on until it is too late.
Posting changes after the fact is a bit *presumptuous.
* I borrowed that word from Russ Eyres.
Do you like it ?
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How many of the entries at Bonneville are BNI only ?
Tell me again how they are to see what is going on until it is too late.
Posting changes after the fact is a bit *presumptuous.
* I borrowed that word from Russ Eyres.
Do you like it ?
Dont know how many, I guess someone from SCTA-BNI has the information. But I know of more than 5 in my small circle of friends. And I dont know anybody.
If they are not SCTA members and therefore do not belong to an SCTA club and therefore do not see/hear the SCTA-BNI meeting minutes then they have to wait for changes to be posted on the SCTA website like jimmy six explained above. Seeing them on the website as new rule changes is too late if you wanted to have some input on the rule to be changed!
The real question is, does therefore have an e on the end, or is it therefor?
John
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J.D., Maybee you should bo back to page three and reread what John said. He was not talking about himself. You and Tom are so damn self rightious, you can't seem to follow the posts on here without burying your heads further in the sand. Unless the SCTA has something to hide, there should be no reason to not make any and all information available to not only their members, but to those of us who pay money to race at their events. What are you guys afraid of? No one is trying to do a disservice to the SCTA or its board, we would just like to know what is being discussed and what to expect. We are not asking for a vote, only a end to the secretive nature of the "good old boys".
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This is a response I received from Roy Creel to a request I made when trying to remember why the minutes are not posted on line:
Dan , in reply to you inquiry,
Memory test-
Posting of SCTA minutes on our website was discussed at length at prior board meetings and it was decided not to do it....Why?
1. To encourage the distribution of information via the club reps and presidents in the form of member participation at the meetings.
2. The minutes do not reflect all of the discussion that takes place at the meetings. The reps "fill in the gaps" as to how and why decisions were made.
3. While the minutes document the decisions made, they can easily be taken out of context or mis- interpreted.
4. The association runs on strictly volunteerism. Responding to constant pot shots from non members who do not participate in the process or contribute to the process just adds to the load on those volunteer officers.
5. All clubs have at least one officer that is computer literate and able. The minutes are electronically published and can be forwarded electronically via the club.
You want the minutes? Earn them:
Join an SCTA club, pull your duties and do your fair share, your president or rep. will provide them to you.
Roy Creel
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Until the SCTA promotes an event that is open to others and is outside So Cal , that may have some validity.
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Tom, I think you are missing Johns point here......Bob
Bob,
I have not missed John's point. It is not reasonable to expect anyone who lives more than (pick a number) 600 miles away from So Cal to join a club. But then again maybe it boils down to how much you really want it. I remember the Sidewinders had one member who lived in South Dakota, and always came out to run the November meet at El Mirage. He really wanted to race. I guess it is up to the individual. Regards, Tom
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So poeple who live a long distance from El Mirage have to prove that they are worthy of inclusion and the locals don't?
Doesn't making the trip to Bonneville count or is Bonneville just a sideshow to the real show at El Mirage?
Sorry, but I don't agree.
Regards,
John
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Are BNI members second class citizens ?
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1. To encourage the distribution of information via the club reps and presidents in the form of member participation at the meetings.
I totally agree
2. The minutes do not reflect all of the discussion that takes place at the meetings. The reps "fill in the gaps" as to how and why decisions were made.
I agree that the meetings are not a total record of the discussion but they do hit all the high points of the topics covered.
3. While the minutes document the decisions made, they can easily be taken out of context or mis- interpreted.
Yes, as can everything in life.
4. The association runs on strictly volunteerism. Responding to constant pot shots from non members who do not participate in the process or contribute to the process just adds to the load on those volunteer officers.
I agree totally. But why not post them in a members only area?
5. All clubs have at least one officer that is computer literate and able. The minutes are electronically published and can be forwarded electronically via the club.
Yes, but you are saying that you dont want them posted by clubmembers either.
You want the minutes? Earn them:
Join an SCTA club, pull your duties and do your fair share, your president or rep. will provide them to you.
eek!!! I disagree! What about the BNI members who are not in an SCTA club!
WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE ANSWER THAT SIMPLE QUESTION OR ARE BNI MEMBERS NOT SUPPOSED TO SEE THEM?
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How involved? not very, not enough.
The number of meetings I have attended? too darn few, probably less than 10 in the last 2 years. But that should be apparent because I'm in the same club as you are (Sidewinders) and you didn't even know it!!!
I have pulled more duties at El Mirage than I have run on the course there.
The point I am trying to make is still the same:
How does a BNI-only member, who does not live anywhere near SoCal get involved in the political side of the BNI-only events and have his opinion officially recognized?
Regards,
John
John,
I do know you are a Sidewinder member and have know that since the day you were voted in. Just have not seen you at many meetings this year. Would like to congratulate you on your great run at Bonneville.
Addressing your point. Have you looked in the 2005 rule book to see if there is an answer in there. If you have not, go to Section 18, BNI BOARD MEMBERS, page 188. I believe the answer is there for you to see. If you are a BNI member these are the people to contact with your questions. Regards, Tom
PS. Come to more meeting and get involved, that is what they are for.
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PS. Come to more meeting and get involved, that is what they are for.
You know Tom, you are not the first to tell me that!
Have a good one
John
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Are BNI members second class citizens ?
Jack,
BNI members have their own board. I suggest if you are a BNI member that you read Section 18. Contact these people and tell them your concerns. Regards, Tom
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BNI does not make any rules that concern competition. They are strictly chartered with the responsibilities for the logistics of the event.
While that certainly has some impact on a lot of things that interest all the entrants,The direct application of the rules and equal treatment is of most concern.
"Circling the wagons with the Indians already on the inside is no more effective that winking at a girl in the dark."
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J.D., Maybe you should go back to page three and reread what John said. He was not talking about himself. You and Tom are so damn self rightious, you can't seem to follow the posts on here without burying your heads further in the sand. Unless the SCTA has something to hide, there should be no reason to not make any and all information available to not only their members, but to those of us who pay money to race at their events. What are you guys afraid of? No one is trying to do a disservice to the SCTA or its board, we would just like to know what is being discussed and what to expect. We are not asking for a vote, only a end to the secretive nature of the "good old boys".
Bob,
I know I frustrate you, but really I don't mean to. You are entitled to your opinion of me, that's cool.
"Good old boys" that can be interpreted may ways. I can tell you I have been to many SCTA board meeting and everything is above board. Yes it is out on the table for everyone to see. I agree with Dan Warner's post on what Roy Creel said.
Bob, pick up the phone and called a board member to see what is going on. (Most cell phones are free on the weekends so it does not cost you anything) I have called board members and they have always been nice to me, and have answered all of my questions. If you have technical questions look in the rule book Appendix B, page 198-199, and call the person for the class you run in. That is the extent of the help I can give you. It is up to you to make the call
It is amazing how much contact information is in the rule book, if we would all just take some time to read it. Regards, Tom
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This is a response I received from Roy Creel to a request I made when trying to remember why the minutes are not posted on line:
Dan , in reply to you inquiry,
Memory test-
Posting of SCTA minutes on our website was discussed at length at prior board meetings and it was decided not to do it....Why?
1. To encourage the distribution of information via the club reps and presidents in the form of member participation at the meetings.
2. The minutes do not reflect all of the discussion that takes place at the meetings. The reps "fill in the gaps" as to how and why decisions were made.
3. While the minutes document the decisions made, they can easily be taken out of context or mis- interpreted.
4. The association runs on strictly volunteerism. Responding to constant pot shots from non members who do not participate in the process or contribute to the process just adds to the load on those volunteer officers.
5. All clubs have at least one officer that is computer literate and able. The minutes are electronically published and can be forwarded electronically via the club.
You want the minutes? Earn them:
Join an SCTA club, pull your duties and do your fair share, your president or rep. will provide them to you.
Roy Creel
So are BNI people second rate as Jack says. We all support LSR in our own ways... I support and promote and keep people informed by the website... I provide a place where families can come see whats going on with their loved ones during the events... I provide information on whats going on... Not only SCTA but the other organizations too....
Provide the racers with information they deserve I say...
Internet searches work real good, like google.....
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dont worry John (others) the virtue of "rights"
and priveledges has been earned because of many before you
and I..........we are simply looking for further understanding......
scta/bni financial info is also of interest to the many who
have a stake in the organizations........
there are some of SCTA hierarchy who said "no we wont
allow it to be posted".........well guess what, as a not-for-profit
entity........its NOT UNDER YOUR CONTROL............BY LAW........
it is PUBLIC DOMAIN .............
after 3 minute net search........
http://www.guidestar.org/
register for free.....
did search for southern california timing association....
and the info accessible.......
http://www.guidestar.org/pqShowGsReport.do?npoId=100237758
scolled down to irs form 990 and an adobe acrobat version supplied..
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2003/330/296/2003-330296342-1-9.pdf
same for any non profit ie BNI.....
its a very handy site for those interested in discerning financial info
of those entities you might want to know about before or after
investing........
desire for information and enhanced understanding is often percieved
as threatening to certain folks........even those "well intentioned"........
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[quote="desotoman] If you have technical questions look in the rule book Appendix B, page 198-199, and call the person for the class you run in. That is the extent of the help I can give you. It is up to you to make the call
It is amazing how much contact information is in the rule book, if we would all just take some time to read it. Regards, Tom[/quote]
Really what about the tech board in your class that dont call back, or return emails??? Or take weeks to answer?
Its interesting a met someone this weekend who doesn't have a cell phone, doesn't have a phone and goes to the libarary weekly to search the internet...
Jon
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Tom, I have nothing against you or J.D., nor anyone else for that matter. What I disagree with is the way changes are made (or not). All of us have opinions on all subjects, and a lot of preconceived notions about everything from politics to rules that we race by. When J.D. says "as soon as the rules are made, SCTA sends out this info" This is exactly the problem as I see it. If I understand my Roberts Rules and Orders correctly, any new rules or amendments should come before a committee for discussion before being voted on by the board members. Both the committee members and the board members are probably going to have their own agendas and preconceived notions, thats only human nature. What I would like to do is open up the disscussion end of this. If any future rule changes or amendments come before the committee, why not post them for open disscussion before voting to make them law. A open discourse on this site might open the voting members eyes to something they didn't know, or have forgotten. How they vote may or may not be affected by what information they glean, but at least those of us who are not members would at least have a chance to offer input. The biggest problem I see is that I don't believe many on the board even bother to visit this site. Allthough we all may have different ideas, I think we all are just trying to make a good thing better. A little input never hurts...........
d
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I voted no.
I am not sure I should even vote since I am one of those fringe people who enjoy the hell out of Bonneville and it's history but have never made a pass, helped with the course or done anything at Bonneville except have the time of my life. I have been helping out on a car for the last 10 years but am not a member of SCTA or BNI. Why... I'm not sure.
My vote is one of protection than anything else. There are people out there that have no business knowing what SCTA/BNI is doing. If they want that information they need to participate. If the information is readily available at meetings and through clubs then they should go and get a copy, or ask someone to share. But just because it is "public information" doesn't mean that it should be layed out on the internet. As convenient as the internet is for many things, there is much that should not be made available so readily. Why expose what you are doing, who you are doing it with and what it costs? Why would you want to expose internal discussions, some of which may be very touchy and unresolved, to people who do not have best interests of SCTA/BNI at heart.
Clubs are clubs, and virtually every club has the same internal issues. What drives a club farther off the centerline is when reasonable thinking people withdraw from a club because they don't like what is going on. That is exactly the time when you should be involved, if only on a minimal level. We all know this and have all seen it. Participation is key, which seems a little strange since I am not a member of either.
In my past research, when I have had a question about anything SCTA/BNI, the answer has always been graciously available to me after I have explained what I want the information for.
Concerning the airing of issues or board members understanding what the vast membership and spectators are interested in, maybe more of them can read these discussions, and combining that with a broader awareness of this site would be a good resource for all.
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thats why we live in a democracy........and have and live by
laws...........
in this case.........is the lsr society being censored and protected from
ourselves........or is they lsr government wanting to be censored and protected from the society...........
there are folks who would like to have the government who rules
on our lives for it to be done behind closed doors........and thankfully
much of it is not done that way............at least not without a peek.......
there are thousands that "participate" with their checkbook, outside of
socal..........and truly deserve having the "business" of knowing what
the entity they joined is doing when it comes to issues related to them
risking life and limb............
the scta/bni has our best interests at heart.............and "we the members/participants"
have the organizations best interests at heart as well............
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Really what about the tech board in your class that dont call back, or return emails??? Or take weeks to answer?
Its interesting a met someone this weekend who doesn't have a cell phone, doesn't have a phone and goes to the libarary weekly to search the internet...
Jon
Jon,
I can only talk for myself. Any person I have contacted (SCTA-BNI)using the phone, has always called me back in a timely manner. I am no one special. I am just a regular SCTA member.
Emails are not bullet proof. Not everyone is computer savvy, and believe it or not some board members might not even have one. Even though I have one it takes me a lot of time to post replies. I pray I never get any more viruses, last one took me a week to get rid of.
The person you meet who does not have a phone or the Internet at their residence is NOT the average person. And that is Ok it is their choice.
You must remember this is a volunteer organization, for amateur racers. Some people take vacations, get sick, have to travel for work, or have emergency's to deal with. If someone does not call you back in a timely manner I suggest you contact the BNI-SCTA office and explain your situation, maybe they can direct you to another person who can help. At least give them a little slack, most all have families, and that at least in my book comes first. Regards, Tom
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Wait a minute "Unk", if the SCTA is truely a non-profit, for the racers organization, who are you hiding the information from? Evil-doers? Sorry, George W. already used that one...I am not sure that I agree about releasing financial records, as that is the SCTA's business, but as long as the BNI meets are run using SCTA rules, I think it is every racers business. A classic example is how the brain surgeons came up with the Classic class, calling a 1980 Camaro a classic, and then saying any car older than 1981 had to run the class for life(since recinded). Who came up with this, and better yet, who voted it in. It seems like a little racer input could have been used , specificly the entrants who run the classes involved. Jeez. a 1973 anything being called a classic makes me want to puke........................
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Since I must have something to hide. I am now strongly contimplating the following:
As soon as I post this I will find a way to remove my name from landracing.com as I have removed it from the e-mail list.
Bob Drury can now take my place one week ahead of Speed Week and drill the the 2000 holes in the salt for the pits, impound, roadways and the like placing all stakes. He must be able to work with the people who volunteer with this along with putting up approximately 1 mile of barricade flags or ribbon.
He must tow out, during set-up week, and tow back in on the last day, after most have left, any trailers/generators from storage as directed by the the race director, BNI director or pit director.
He must be in impounds at Bonneville every morning by 0600 to recieve the vehicles and lead them to the starting line.
When possible he must go to Bonneville in July and help find a suitable courses and drag said courses.
He will need to know the placement of the 48 s-houses which apparently he thinks I am in.
He will also make all the Bonneville and El Mirage Certificates.
He will also make all the timing tags. Mailing them out and remailing them when they come back. Desiminating the El Mirage tags to the respective club reps or presidents at meetings.
He will need to be at EVERY EVENT to inspect the vehicles. Set up and tear down the inspection area.
He need to get proficient in certifying all bodies of the record setting vehicles knowing the idiosyncracys of each class. W/Dan W.
He must also be proficient in engine certification using all of the ways in which the SCTA certifies engines. W/Dan W.
He must walk the 1-3/10 mile El Mirage course on Saturday starting at 5:00pm representing SDRC looking for debris on the course.
He must work all Sundays at El Mirage welcoming spectators, giving them wrist bands and giving the proper direction if needed at the resistration trailer. W/Warren B.
He will become the SDRC Club rep and attend all SCTA Meeting and report to the SDRC President.
If I missed anything He can do that too.
I will continue look up past history as I like that.
Now it looks like I may have some time to run my own car...Good luck Bob with all your new responsibilites and good luck to the rest of you too.
J.D. has left the building...........
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Martyrs are not considered saints.
I can cite multiple cases where something was misrepresented to the board, rulebook, and the membership. Only the publication here put the light on it and even that resulted in the MC tech committee chair tried to tell a story that was not true about the origin. Documentation here prevented the misrepresentation that might have occur ed in a one on one communication. If you know more people are liable to read a question you are not only going think about it harder but the answer will have a better chance of being correct.
A lot of good information is passed along here and it is better when you believe more people are looking at it because it has to stand that test.
"You can fool some of the people(well you know how it goes)"
That might sound a little harsh but it is really soft when compared to how it might be said.
Remember when you decide how you feel about it that thousands of drilled holes are in the balance and might be homeless if you insist.
Don't spend a lot of time worried about this because if you spread yourself to thin, the quality will suffer.
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I am not sure if there is a length limit to a post but we might just find out.
First it is the Southern California Timing Association (SCTA) that happens to be a group of clubs in a specific geographical location and not a national organization. Second it is run by the members for their enjoyment and or amusement you pick which one you think is appropriate. They also have a separate organization run by the SCTA members called Bonneville Nationals Inc.(BNI). SCTA runs a series of local events during the year. BNI runs 2 events during the year that are more national in scope and not really local to the SCTA as the primary location at El Mirage. These from what I can see are run by the same group of people, SCTA though by possibly different members but that is really not important, in order to accomplish 2 things that are obvious to me. The first is to have a longer racing surface at a place that has been regarded the 'mecca of speed' for generations. the second is to help raise some money to offset the costs for the local club events. This is important to note as in order to race at a BNI event you need to be a BNI member and pay your entry fee. You are not obligated beyond that point. In order to race at El Mirage you need to be a member of a car club affiliated with SCTA and participate at the events even if you are not personally racing a car or bike there. So your obligations are more involved than at a BNI event. There is nothing wrong for a local club to have a larger than normal event with an event committee (BNI) in order to raise funds for the club. It is more fun than passing the hat at meetings and standing on street corners with a tin cup.
An analogy, every story needs one. I have a friend that is a member of a local golf club,'The Mystic River Divits', yes i made that name up to protect the innocent. They have monthly meetings and tournaments for the benefit of the members to have some fun playing against each other and compare improvements in ability at their local golf course. they also have an annual ball, Christmas party and a few other social gatherings for the members and families to enjoy. To offset these costs for the monthly tournaments and selected get togethers they have a couple of open events at a world class course for anyone to play. All you have to do is pay your fees and go play. You are not obligated to do anything other than have a good time, follow the rules and go home. Some of the players at the open tournament are very active in the sport and always working on new innovations to improve their game so are always interested in what is new going on at the Divits meetings so they know where they stand for the next year's open events and rightly so as it involves considerable travel and expense. There is pending discussion as i type this about a laser guided putter LOL..
I think the analogy fits pretty well to be honest. In my humble opinion what needs to be accomplished is not the day to day working of a local club whether it be the Divits or the SCTA. Information from the 'event committee' is what the participants at the open events need in order to know what is going on and make decisions accordingly. It also might be good to remember the relationship though rocky at times is rather symbiotic. The local club benefits from the cash infusion of the open event and players that are not local or members of a club get to play. Both benefit from each other and both add value to the overall sport. Communications at both ends is important as is the the common goal to have a successful and enjoyable open event that is a financial success to the local club as well as a rewarding experience for the player that travels from far away to participate in the event. One group needs to understand that the participants that travel great distances spend considerable time and effort to attend. The other group needs to understand that the those that host the event go thorough considerable time and effort to put it on. Both groups opinions have merit and both have a vested interest in the final outcome of the events.
Does anyone need some copies of the Mystic River Divits meets for those golfers interested in attending the open tournament. You can read all about how someone has a problem at a local tournament and the plans for the annual ball, or might you be better served by just getting some timely information on the rules for the open event and possibly get some timely responses if you have some concerns. If you are putting on the event that is the fundraiser how important is it to your group to have a financial success with a good turn out and a minimum of misunderstandings or problems.
The last issue is the timely response. Everyone has a different definition of one might be. Every event has a rulebook and ought to be the first place to look. If it is not clear there it ought to be a phone call or e-mail for an interpretation of what the rule means. If the question is really obscure in might have to come up at a meeting for further discussion so the local clubs are involved with their input as well. So the answer is not always a call away. On the other hand the rule book comes out within about 6 months before the event at best and sometimes a lot closer. That causes issues of complying when the equipment takes a very long time to prepare in some cases and a new rule 4 months before an event might mean not attending for some. A solution might be the event rule makers have an open discussion at one of the open events that questions and suggestions are fielded by everyone. It does not have to be during the actual event as they are not run in the dark. The questions and thoughts might be written in advance so that any research that has to be done on either side be prepared so the discussion is useful as well. i would think a question submitted a month in advance ought to be long enough for anyone to find the answers and if further clarification is needed to discuss it at the meeting for everyone. Things discussed there ought to be binding as well so everyone has a chance in advance to know the score rather than months and might only be a rule for the open event. It is a thought at least and i am sure i would like to see it happen.
If you care who the new president is of a local group is maybe move there and participate. if you care about rules at an open event possibly work to change the way rules are made or discussed for the open event. If you care about attendance at the open event maybe care about those who come with an open checkbook. We all need cooperation from each other for this venue to remain open and fun.
Dave
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Dave well said.
glen
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Wow, J.D., you seem a little touchy this morning. Try some Metamusel. Maybe then you can get ahold of your true feelings. If you can't stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen. Seriously, this forum is provided for those of us who like to not accept the status quo and disscuss the what ifs and what nots. That does not mean we or you are correct in our opinions or beliefs, but it does present as a forum our right to think outloud, and provide for legitimate disscussion of topics relating to our sport. No one, least of all me, discounts the endless, tireless efforts put in by the volunteer members of SCTA in making this all possible, and why J.D., you have chosen yourself as a personal Martyr is beyond me. There are lots of ideas to be bounced arround, some good, some bad, but all in all I still maintain a little more racer input can only help.
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J.D.'s post seems to say that the SCTA/BNI workers are not appreciated. I have never seen anything but praise for the people who work so hard to put on Speed Week. We are all aware that without these guys there would be no race. Some of us by either geography or family or work obligations are not able to put in the time to pre-work an event. This does not make us bad people.
The point that has been missed or glossed over is the fact that racers from around this country that pay their BNI DUES and BNI ENTRY FEES are in effect paying for the SCTA El Mirage Events (as acknowledged in a prior posting). All it appears they would like is some input on the rules before they are written in stone and a bit of incite on what is going on with their "Club" (BNI).
The posting of the SCTA Minutes will I am sure for a time bring nit picking and second guessing along with the usual less than bright questions (think Speed Week drivers meetings). After awhile this will disappear and two-way dialog will take its place. We have good people putting in a great deal of time running SCTA/BNI at this point and it can only get better.
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This may come as a surprise to most but, pending rules are not discussed at SCTA Board meetings and will not be in the minutes.
There is a report given by the head car tech and head motorcycle tech. This report runs the gamit from "nothing to report" to "so 'n' so is building a car/bike and would like some advice. I sent him to the committee chairperson"
By the time the rules meeting is scheduled I have sent the board members, committee chairpersons and club presidents the agenda for the upcoming meeting. This is going out this week.
What you will get from the minutes is how many new cones will be purchased along with how many feet of yellow caution tape. Doesn't blow my skirt up, how about you?
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Dan, you are of course correct. The bottom line is any real "dirt" , if there even is any, should and would be discussed by the "E" or Executive board in private, if proper rules and regulations are followed. Salt's(God, how I hate these pseudonames) post pretty much sums up what I, and I think most others on this forum are looking for. No one is trying to start a witch hunt, nor do I believe those who want financial disclosure ( I am not one of them) are suggesting any past or currrent impropriaties. We just need to bridge that "us and them" mentality. Once again, we all thank you Dan for visiting this site, and sharing . The same goes for Tom, J.D., and all the members of SCTA. And to J.D., I offer my personal appologies if I offended you with my "head in the sand" comment, it was meant more in jest than malice. Now can I have my timing tag, Please?
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What you will get from the minutes is how many new cones will be purchased along with how many feet of yellow caution tape. Doesn't blow my skirt up, how about you?
Wow dan, thats all thats reported at the meeting minutes? Well then what is the big issue on why It cant be posted??? Information like that can't hurt anything, and it will give some people something to read....
Dan I love ya man, I appreciate you taking the time to come here and play, When I see you next I will have an umbrella shaded beer cooler with beer included to pay my respects to you...
Jon
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anyone else, want to run and hold their ears
and eyes closed, when the discussion is out
of their control???????????
thats tooo freakin baaaad when ya gotta run
and cry when discourse doesnt suit ya........
geeeez.........thats what makes this country great...
lsr is so much better due to folks like JD and Dan
and so many others..........we truly respect all the
volunteers and their efforts...........
I sure as hell dont want to see JD remove himself as
a resource to the lsr community.........banter and discourse
is good even when ya dont see eye to eye.........(much of the
most meaningful occurs during these times)
but just as it is human nature to keep tweaking our
vehicles for more performance.............the same applies
to lsr politics........
this era of internet and more global information sharing to me is akin
to the proliferation of electronics and engine management........
some embrace it and use it to work smarter..more efficient...
others shun it and feel threatened by it...........
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This site has 510 registered users. Only 69 took the time to vote, even though Jon sent out an email telling everyone it was very important. 30 or less individuals took the time to post on this subject.(I might be wrong but very close).
I am drawing a conclusion that not many people care about posting the minutes. With only 49 who voted yes, that is less than 10% of those registered on this board.
I think it is time to let this rest. I know I am. Good night all. Tom
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The percent of participation is 1 factor. The percent of yes and no is just about what is represented by the level of membership. With over 2000 views it shows some interest.
The arguments for and against are few and often are repeated.
The fear factor is the loudest and the threats the lamest.
The information is public and only the format is the question.
I believe the answer is that it should be the available to everyone in the form that best serves the sport.
Credibility includes everyone running to the same standard. How would you expect the other racing groups to measure one against the other without a central place to share ideas and results ?
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yer right, when over 70% of those folks who care...
vote a certain way, ya oughta discount it and move on...........
LETS TALLY THE FREAKIN NUMBER OF VIEWS......and make
some reasonable deductions.........
desoto, I like ya.........just fueling the fire........cuz there is
obviously a fire.........we here in south dakota can see the smoke....
or is that smog down there...?
Joe :)
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.........we here in south dakota can see the smoke....
or is that smog down there...?
Joe :)
Hey Joe, what country is S. Dakota in? :D
I enjoy the site, even if it is your brothers!!
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I would like to vote yes on the posting of the SCTA meetings minutes
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LETS TALLY THE FREAKIN NUMBER OF VIEWS......and make
some reasonable deductions.........
just fueling the fire........
Joe :)
Joe,
Views are just that, Views. They don't really mean anything, and are very misleading. One person could have viewed that thread 100 times. I know I probably did because it was an interest to me. If the 30 posters were as interested as I was, and viewed it as many times as I did, there is your total number of views. I am not saying that is what happened, but it is very possible seeing the total number of people that voted. That to me Joe is a reasonable deduction.
As far as I am concerned the fire is out. Must be smog you are seeing. :wink: Regards, Tom
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If the poll is meaningless and harmless,
then what harm could there be in those few ineffective people getting copies?
Where there is smoke there is fire, the type of smoke speaks volumes.
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Where there is smoke there is fire, the type of smoke speaks volumes.
JackD,
You crack me up. LOL LOL LOL :D :D :D There is no smoke or fire up here in the San Fernando Valley. The reason I cannot see to San Diego, is because of all of the fumes coming out of the pot you are stirring. :P :P :P
Regards, Tom
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No pot left in San Fernando ? The Indians used smoke to communicate with others and just smoked it local if they were only talking to themselves anyway.
They didn't try to trick anybody until mirrors came along. Then it was a smoke and mirrors deal that remains popular today.
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All -
OK, so why not re-state the question and post a new poll?
How about this -
IF there was an online forum (posted either on the SCTA website, Landracing.com, or another venue) that addressed potential rules changes being considered by the SCTA for LSR competition (thus impacting Goliad and Maxton racing, too), would you
1) Regularly review the posted topics? Yes__ No__
2) Participate in the discussion process if your particular class of racing would be impacted by the proposed rules change (either to support the proposal or to disagree and offer a reasonable alternative)? Yes__ No __
Disclaimer - If this Forum becomes a reality, the SCTA is under NO obligation to follow the majority opinion on any topic, although the posted opinions could (and should) be taken into account when making the final decision. Topics could be posted as they are being considered by the various Competition Committees, and have a finite "discussion period" before being closed (say 2 to 4 weeks).
I think this approach will prompt a much bigger response from the subscribers to Landracing, in part because I would bet that many of the subscribers are from outside the area covered by the various SCTA Clubs. Personally, I did not vote because 1) I do not (yet) have a car to race, and thus am not a BNI Member, 2) Like Dave Dahlgren I live in CT which makes SCTA Membership not an option, and 3) I don't care what goes on with the day-to-day operation of the SCTA, as long as they can sucessfully put on events at B'ville and El Mirage.
Clay
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yes Clay that is the type of facilitation that would be
worth something..........
its very easy to have member access only.........ie
an scta/bni # or other could allow for private participation only...........
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All of the LSR groups are in this together and each may also style their event to suit their membership. The groups can actually learn from the others. The best one is the one you run.
The closer the rules and procedures , the better it is likely to be for not only safety but credibility.
A neutral forum like this is the best place to share ideas. An expiration date will not work, but interest will take care of that when a problem is solved or the participants give up.
If they choose not to participate in open discussion with the participants, vote with your feet and that will be the end of that.
The closer you hold their feet to the fire, the more anxious they will be to please.
Soon enough they will add "PLEASE" to their vocabulary too.
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As one who is neither competitor,spectator or organiser, I have not posted a vote.
To a complete outsider like me, this seems to be a basic lack of communication (both ways)
Would a possible solution be: rather than publish the minutes of meetings, a representative of the rule-making bodies posts ideas for rule changes here for discussion before these are formalised into a proposal, by which time it is effectively too late to change it.
Can I also add that, as an outsider, I find it strange that a relatively small branch of the Sport should have more than one rule-making body. Surely the different lots of rule-makers could talk to each other.
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I find it strange that a relatively small branch of the Sport should have more than one rule-making body.
Huh???
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I find it strange that a relatively small branch of the Sport should have more than one rule-making body.
Huh???
SCTA/BNI, ECTA, USFRA, Texas Mile, FIA all publish their own rule books. Plus AMA and FIM for bikes.
I would say that's more than one, wouldn't you?
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As traditional as D-Type is, he has gotten over the fact that not all Motorbikes look like a BSA.
By Jove, I think he has it.
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With over 3000 views, it would seem there is something lacking.
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Actually, SCTA/BNI/ECTA/USFRA all use the same rulebook. ECTA and USFRA have some accomendations to suit their specific venues. If you want to have your record at Bonneville acknowleged you use the same rules and class structure as the SCTA/BNI.
DW
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Also the Texas mile goes by same rules at the SCTA/BNI/USFRA etc etc.
DLRA rules are a spinoff of the same rules with their own additions and allowances. (They allow more rear fairing height and allow more leather options)
ECTA has about the same rules also with additions or allowances added for their meet (rear fairing height as an example, and leather allowances but you must have body armor over a certain speed and you must have front brakes above a certain speed)
The BUB meet which uses AMA rules are also a spinoff with much the same rules with a few additional requirements. The FIM rules almost mirror the AMA. (safety wire oil pan drain plug and oil filter are two extras not in the SCTA book)(then again there is rule with a belly pan being able to hold half (????) of oil and coolant capacity that is not enforced)
So when it is all said and Done the SCTA rules have been the standard, each venue add's a few extra or takes away a few but all have about the same rules.
Jon
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Each has it's own level of input from the participants and degree of enforcement.
Will the real fastest bikes please be quiet while we make rules around you to protect and preserve the halfast.