Landracing Forum
Tech Information => EFI Questions => Topic started by: besserspat on February 02, 2010, 06:00:04 PM
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OK here's a debate that may never end...
I am currently building a bike to run the gas 1350cc class at bonneville( I may run nitrous later) , the motor was never designed for fuel injection from the factory (suzuki oil cooled lump) so to fuel inject it, would be more trouble and money than I want to spend or have ...
that said , I know the altitude of bonneville and the tunability of the EFI motors make of fuel injection an appealing thing used strictly for lsr (Maine-Bonneville).
My heart tells me to go with Lectron carbs for the ease of " on site tuneability" am I wrong? Lectrons never been know for super smooth transitional carburetion which may be crutial for the salt..
EFI is also more money that I can use elsewhere on the bike right now.
but I dont know a whole lot about LSR I know much more about drag ,flattrack and road racing bikes.
So please chime in with interesting stories, thoughts and proven set ups.
Cheers :)
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Your right the debate will go on and on. I'll tell you my story, I ride an '07 Hayabusa, all tuning was done at 500ft elevation. In July, 90dg temp we tuned for production class for Speedweek, set the record at 211+ with a best one way speed of 213+. Came home changed exhaust, couple of other mods to put the bike in APS, retuned at 95dg, went to World of Speed. I dont think we made a run when the temp was above 80dg. Set two records,213+ & 214+, best one way speed 219+. Took the fairings off for World finals, set two records 194+ & 200+. We did nothing to the tune for World Finals and most runs were made at below 50 dg. Could I have run a little faster if I had been able to log a/f and adjust, probably. Could I have done all this manually tuning a set of Lectrons, highly unlikely.
Fred
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Having run oil-cooled Suzukis at Bonneville from 1986 to 1997 I think you would be better off with Mikuni flat slides. Bolt them on and go, very little tuning necessary. We have run Lectrons and factory fuel injection on the same Busa at Maxton with almost identical results. Which is better? probably the fuel injection because of the factory ram air. Incidently Lectron was recently sold and now is based in Texas. Unless you already have Lectrons they would not be my choice. If you have them, buy a bullworker hand exerciser because the return springs necessary will have your wrist crying "no mas" by the four mile. Have fun, it is a great engine. Larry
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had Mikuni's on my gsxr750 took em off and put on some 'trons..... lost HP!!!!.... took em off and tried Keihin's.... made 7HP more than the Mikuni's..... 'Trons may be simpler but they also make simple HP, pass on the 'trons
Kent
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Kent: Why do 15 of 16 Pro Stock (4 cyl.) drag race motorcycles use lectrons when every HP is crucial and $$$ is no object? Larry
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Kent: Why do 15 of 16 Pro Stock (4 cyl.) drag race motorcycles use lectrons when every HP is crucial and $$$ is no object? Larry
Cause they tune better than kent :-o
Maybe I should have used a ? instead of a :-o or the little suzy needed velocity and air...
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Any body that still squirts fuel through a carb just hasn't figured out EFI.
Your reaction to changing weather conditions is your best guess with a carb, and only if you have massive experience with the jets, slides, needles, you name it.
Firing up the laptop to change the curve a repeatable and predictable amount, and that includes ignition too, sure beats recording every jet change along with the current weather conditions in some beat up black book. I still have my black books, all retired.
Yes, it still takes massive experience with either one to figure out how to best match weather conditions. Electronic feed back from an A/F sensor, air pressure readings from a transducer, rpm from a sensor, wheel speed from a sensor, throttle position from a sensor can all be fed to the laptop.
I really like Burt Monroe. Spent a bunch of time talking to him. Don't think seat-of-the-pants tuning is going to keep you in the record books much longer.
I'm surprised to hear that EFI isn't the pro stock motorcycle choice. I'm pretty sure that wasn't a carb I saw on that F1 motor. They DO have unlimited funds.
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Tell us more about your bike. What year GSXR is it?
-Scott
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93-98 GSXR1100
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Any body that still squirts fuel through a carb just hasn't figured out EFI.
Your reaction to changing weather conditions is your best guess with a carb, and only if you have massive experience with the jets, slides, needles, you name it.
Firing up the laptop to change the curve a repeatable and predictable amount, and that includes ignition too, sure beats recording every jet change along with the current weather conditions in some beat up black book. I still have my black books, all retired.
Yes, it still takes massive experience with either one to figure out how to best match weather conditions. Electronic feed back from an A/F sensor, air pressure readings from a transducer, rpm from a sensor, wheel speed from a sensor, throttle position from a sensor can all be fed to the laptop.
I really like Burt Monroe. Spent a bunch of time talking to him. Don't think seat-of-the-pants tuning is going to keep you in the record books much longer.
I'm surprised to hear that EFI isn't the pro stock motorcycle choice. I'm pretty sure that wasn't a carb I saw on that F1 motor. They DO have unlimited funds.
Dean,
Pro Stock Bike (PSB) teams, unlike some of the Top Fuel and Funny Car teams, have very limited funding. In fact most of the PBS teams live race to race and survive on qualifying and round monies to make the next race. Sure there are exceptions like VHR and DSR (Schumacher) who are funded much better than the average PSB team.
You have to remember that NHRA has only allowed PSB to run injections since the 2006 season. The learning curve on transiting the Suzuki teams to injection has been tough and expensive. In 2008 Karen and Gary Stoffer started running injection on their bike and have some success.
To drive your point home. The VHR Team runs injection and I believe that some, if not all, of the Buell teams are running injection. Take a look at which bikes that hold the records and win the majority of the races…….the injected bikes………and which bike won the 2009 NHRA PSB championship…..Hector Arana and a injected Buell……..
Buzz
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Tell us more about your bike. What year GSXR is it?
-Scott
If the question was directed to me, oil cooled GSX-Rs were made from 1985 to 1992.
The bike I hope to be running is a 1985 GSX-R 750 (yeah , one of the very first to be made).
It was a streetfighter bike before I decided to change it into an LSR bike wannabe.
it's 750 frame hugging a 1100 oil boiler bored to 1340cc.
My experience with lectron carbs in absolutely ZERO , so is my experience with fuel injection...
I just want a bike that is easy to tune and simple , I like simple stuff I can build and tune myself... ill be by myself on the salt or wherever Ill run this bike, so I need to be able to fix , tune and run the bike myself.
I can learn a thing or two...
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love the Lectrons.....thats what we used when we
set some nitrous records.......
simple and make great power as evidenced by nearly
all pro-stock Jap teams, pro-mod etc ....for around 20 yrs......
I prefer fuel injection now with turbo, and would also
on about any newer from the factory EFI bike, but on our shoestring budget
we enjoyed the trons....on the older na/nitrous bike....
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Have always had good luck with Lectrons......You noted you will be by yourself on the salt....that means
you will be racing the BUB Speed Trials....all the other events require you have a pit crew to pick you up to truck and/or trailer your bike back to the pits and/or starting line.......(insurance you know.......NOT)
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Have always had good luck with Lectrons......You noted you will be by yourself on the salt....that means
you will be racing the BUB Speed Trials....all the other events require you have a pit crew to pick you up to truck and/or trailer your bike back to the pits and/or starting line.......(insurance you know.......NOT)
Ok , dont worry I know the rules and take this adventure seriously , I have a "crew" but they are more for logistics and moral support than mechanics , so Ill be the one tuning and riding the bike.
Maybe I should have been more precise.
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You noted you will be by yourself on the salt....that means......you will
likely be running SCTA speedweek......?......as you would enjoy all the
great support.......and easy to garner help.....:):):):)...!!!!!!!!
(which by the way IS needed REGARDLESS of which meet ya choose....)
Joe :)
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Yep the speedweek is the goal , one of the 3 big events I want to be in, before I lose my "mojo" :-D
I was supposed to go last year but my work being directly related to how well car manufacturers do financially ,you will understand why I was not part of the speedweek last year :|
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Welcome to the sport besserspat.
Regardless of which venue you choose to run or however you choose to fuel your engine, you will enjoy the support of a great group of land speed enthusiasts.
Its good to see another bike with some "older" technology. Horsepower is horsepower.
-Scott
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Thanks for all the good words, the LSR crowd seems quite different than the racing crowd I'm used to. Everyone I talked to so far are helpful and willing to share some "speed secrets". That must be one for the various reasons why people get addicted to LSR.
Most of my machines are "old school" and my 1340cc brick shaped, oil cooled LSR bike is no exception.
Thanks for the input guys.
Peter
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Peter, what kind of carbs do you have now? Are they the constant velocity types with the butterfly plate or are they slide carbs?
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Peter, what part of Canada? We're a rather wide country.
Pete
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Peter, what kind of carbs do you have now? Are they the constant velocity types with the butterfly plate or are they slide carbs?
I never really used CV carbs on my bikes , they all have either MIKUNI RS, or FCRs. I know a good CV carb is more than adequate on the street since they improve rideability and throttle response.Are CV carbs a better choice at high altitude like Bonneville?
The motor has no carbs on it now, I had a set of Mikuni RS 38 on it when it was a "smaller" 1216 but since the motor has grown up to 1340 , many people told me to go with lectrons 40 (Drag racing crowd) and some to go fuel injection (techno turbo geeks)...I am lost now !
I am from Montreal Canada,but Im in Florida quite often too.
Both places are near sea level so I have no experience at high altitude.
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The CV carbs on my Bonneville handle the daily changes in atmospheric conditions at Bonneville very well. I do need to completely rejet if I want to run the ERC 110 octane leaded at sea level. I need to go richer. This is a pain.
Your questions about EFI vs carbs are similar to the questions I am facing for my racing program. Yesterday we had our Truimph club meeting in Beaverton. I asked a few questions. This is what I found out.
The older Hinckley Triumph Bonnevilles have a sophisticated CV carb system. The factory setup on my 2003 is about as good as bike carbs are. The new Bonnevilles have fuel injection. During the transition from carbs to EFI the engine remained the same. The new EFI Bonnevilles produce more power, get better mileage, run good with a greater variety of fuels, and give better performance during differing atmospheric conditions. These changes are noticeable.
I also learned that it is no simple matter to convert a carb Bonneville to EFI. The wiring harness, electronic brains, and the entire fueling system, including the gas tank are different. Advice is to buy an EFI Bonnie and to transfer my racing parts to it.
In previous years I had some exposure to EFI, and this are my feelings. In racing, a good set of carbs and EFI are an even match if the carbs are set up perfectly for the throttle opening, fuel, and atmosphere. The EFI has the brains to do this and that is all it thinks about. It has anti knock sensors, can vary ignition timing and mixture ratios on the run, and do all sorts of other good things. The rider or mechanic has to do a lot of this manually with a carb setup, between heats, races, or runs, and in addition to all of the other issues. The problem with the manual method is not knowing there is a needed adjustment, making an error when doing the change, or not having the time to address the issue.
My ambitions are to squeak the Bonnie into the 150 club before I get too old to race or go broke. I will probably stay with carbs, but I want to learn EFI. A serious old guy or lady, or a younger person with ambitions for records in top level classes, should start learning EFI.
Anyway, this is a long winded opinion from an older guy with a mild hangover and four functioning brain cells. Have fun with your Suzooks.
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EFI is the future , there is no doubts about it, its effective and relatively simple to tune to a level of accuracy that is hard to beat with a carb.
But my concerns are more about fitting EFI to a motor that was not designed for that. fitting the TBs off a busa to my oil cooled lump is the easy part, the electrical, the sensors etc etc arent.
I want to run nitrous eventually, and EFi seems to respond very well to Nitrous with its real time adjustablility.
But maybe I should learn how to walk before running on the salt...
So I think I will stick to carbs until I get good , and if I really like it I can always find another project that has EFI right out of the box.
Now there is the question, should I stay with FCRs and Mikuni RS or venture in LECTRON land...
I want simple , easy to tune AND the best power out of my set up!
The motor is an oil cooled 1127 bored to 1340 suzuki.
head work , bigger valves, and race pipe (sidewinder).
cheers :)
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Some of the drag bike guys are switching to EFI, and their old Electron set-ups are on the used market. Maybe check drag forums or Kawa sites, might save some money.
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As you are mainly looking at WOT hp then the lectrons will be hard to beat, they jet nicley, have a ton of air flow, and cost effective. ( I did application engineering with Lectron for alot of years, and have had quite a few records on the salt using them). There biggest drawback is they dont have bearings on the slides so they are stiff off idle until you overcome the idle Vac. on the slides. But you are not at idle very long on the salt
The nice benifit with EFI is that it will self tune for the altitude, however HP wise if you dont have a good set of Throttle bodies that flow well , they wont make the power of the carbs.
With either one EFI or Carbs, a good Lambda meter will help you a ton and is a great investment.
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The CV carbs can be tricky to jet. A main jet reading requires the butterfly plate to be wide open and there needs to be enough venturi vacuum to lift the slides completely. We put it on a dyno, use a gas analyzer, and I look down into one of the velocity stacks to make sure the slide is completely up.
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Well I certainly learned something today, did not realize that Bub is the only event at the flats, for a "run what brought ya there, a long distance" bikes.. if you are by yourself.
Originally I wanted to run my Sohc CB 750 in sidecar class, but have not yet been able to.
Not knocking FI but a lot of people just want to find out what their bike is capable of in present form.
That said if you like tinkering, and an interesting alternative, that is easy to work on.. I run Weber 40 DCOE's. They are actually pretty easy to work on, but some seem scared of them.
I was lucky, had scads of jets when I got a running set. Just thought I would mention them, they do have some interesting features... also the only carbs I ever hear referred to as "the closest thing to fuel injection"
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Well I certainly learned something today, did not realize that Bub is the only event at the flats, for a "run what brought ya there, a long distance" bikes.. if you are by yourself.
Originally I wanted to run my Sohc CB 750 in sidecar class, but have not yet been able to.
Not knocking FI but a lot of people just want to find out what their bike is capable of in present form.
That said if you like tinkering, and an interesting alternative, that is easy to work on.. I run Weber 40 DCOE's. They are actually pretty easy to work on, but some seem scared of them.
I was lucky, had scads of jets when I got a running set. Just thought I would mention them, they do have some interesting features... also the only carbs I ever hear referred to as "the closest thing to fuel injection"
754,
Love the Webers 40's! I ran a set of them on my KZ1428cc dragbike in the late 80's. Very tunable carburetor and something different and out of the norm.
Buzz
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Well they certainly have that classic Hot Rod look!!
And you can use em on almost anything.
Last time I looked they were actually reasonable, about 400US for New ! , for one dual throat. Jetting and venturis add up. Plus you have to make a manifold.
Myself I am still a carb guy, not about to switch..
I do like certain things like 3 minute DRY jet changes, 3 minute venturi changes, ball bearing throttles with very light throttle effort.. etc..
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754.....Bring your single stick Honda to the 2010 BUB Meet......with a sidecar attached......make a run
in the "Run what ya brung" or enter the outfit in the sidecar class and make a run for the dollars that will be in the sidecar only purse...
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Can we take a quick side track on this topic - and 754, PLEASE chime in, because the 40 DCOE is at the top of my list. I'm building a 970 cc Spridget engine for a production car class - 5 ports, two for intake, three for exhaust. I have the manifold for the Weber, but I'm not married to it. There is a lot of info out there for the Weber in my application, but I haven't ruled out an appropriately sized pair of bike carbs, or TBI's for that matter.
Assuming I can whip up a manifold, is there a pair of bike carbs - Lectron, Mikuni, whatever, that would be as easy to set up in an application and would flow as well as the Weber? Keep in mind, I only have two intake ports, so each barrel will be drawing at twice the rate per RPM that one would see in a typical 1-carb/1 cylinder application, like on most bikes.
Any thoughts? Anyone? Thanks.
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Let me mention this, I used to have the MPD ... Magnusen Product Development jetting sheets for @ carbs on Honda 750 and single carb on Harley 1000 or 1200cc.. I do believe the venturis were same size and jetting was pretty close. I may still have the sheet for the dual Honda, And single Honda carb setup, with baseline jetting, will try to take a look..
By spridget, do you mean bored out SOHC CB 750..?
Bak, I rode the 750 solo,with the webers out to Bub in 07, had it parked on Landsend everyday, blew the motor only a few hrs running after I got back, have not fixed it yet... will be 970cc next time, got Crower rods, Arais pistons.. sorta doubt it will be done by summer.. good think about the hack platform , if I did ride it out would have lots of room for tools..
I did ride that ratty overloaded black 750 to the last bub meet.. :-D
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By spridget, do you mean bored out SOHC CB 750..?
I thought this one might be odd. My apology - I'm talking "Britcar" in "Bikeland".
Spridget = Austin Healey Sprite/ MG Midget.
I'm looking at bike carbs because the capacity of the engine is similar.
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Renault Gordini and the Lotus Cortina, used dcoe's..