Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: robfrey on February 01, 2010, 01:40:41 PM
-
Do you think the Monza would be a good platform to build a Comp Coupe from?
I was thinking of extending the nose about 36" and building a tube frame front end.
Do they have any weird characteristics that would disqualify it from making it a good CC?
Maybe the roof line is too rounded and creates lift or something like that?
Do you think we would be better off with third gen "F" body to start with?
-
Do you think the Monza would be a good platform to build a Comp Coupe from?
I was thinking of extending the nose about 36" and building a tube frame front end.
Do they have any weird characteristics that would disqualify it from making it a good CC?
Maybe the roof line is too rounded and creates lift or something like that?
Do you think we would be better off with third gen "F" body to start with?
Think smaller....... as in frontal. :wink:
-
Mike,
Are you saying that the Monza would be better than the "F" body or should we be looking at something smaller yet? Is there anything smaller car that has a good shape that is not a sports car? I bet you have a better idea!
-
Steve Batchelor ran an injected SBC stock-wheelbased Monza into the 250's 10-15 years ago. Wouldn't think extending it would hurt it any. Be nice to have a frame, though.
Stan
(1 pass in the Monza for my A license.)
-
Look at the Blowfish car, not small at all; but there is a ton of R&D in that front end. There will a lot of competition in that class one Lee Kennedy finishes his Firebird. You better hurry if your looking for a record or a hat. Not to say that Lee won't have his share of grimlins, but his experience does suggest they will be minimal. Good luck to you regardless I'm sure you will compete in anything you guys build. :cheers:
-
RobFrey - We ran a Monza inthe mid-80's with a bit of success - stock short wheel base and all. My rookie orientation talk consisted of " Watch yourself anything over 190 and a Monza will turn around on you evrytime - lot of lift!!!" Made for a tight bung for the first three passes as we got over 200. Ended up at 220's and never had a problem - We had right at zero caster in the front end until young Jack Dolan told us to swap a-arms side to side for the next year. Good luck going A/BGCC speeds. Get help from good people. Pat
-
Look at a chopped Honda 600, maybe a 90's Toyota Tercell coupe. The Burkland chopped Datsun B-210 worked out well..........Think outside the box......Good Luck
-
Toyota, Starlight Coupe is very small---get something that has great AERO BUTT Monza is sensative to the rear spoiler attack angle
-
Dont bother answering if yould rather not, but curious as to what swapping the A arms does, allow more caster ? No money, no car, no secrets
-
I only know what my Vega is like to 208. But it was always fine to there. Monza is pretty much the same. But I always thought of them as Altered/Gas/Pro coups. Some of those Two + Two cars --240Z---are very slick. What about a Honda Coup? That little fastback they had about 10-15 years ago?
-
How about a Merkur xr4Ti? Stable (I've read :mrgreen: ) at 200+ in "production" configuration. Somewhat rare but you should be able to find one cheap.
(http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com/Merkur_misc/WOS_FRONT.jpg)
Mike
-
We ran a Buick Skyhawk, swapped lower A arms, factory rear spoiler. Car was very predictable with no handling issues, best exit speed 231.---. Talking to some of my fellow racer with simular body styles high 240's was considered the limit in its current configuration.
-
Glad to here there is going to be another new comp coupe I would like to see the class built up.
-
The a-arm swap gives you some caster - that is a good thing - Pat :-D
-
Easy guess when he said he had 0 caster the other way, just curious, thanks. I dont think Id like to try 0 caster at 220, mucho huevos !
-
I would run a very small amt of caster---you do not want steering inputs and caster to change the chassis loading---then you get directional inputs from the axle :-o
-
I would run a very small amt of caster---you do not want steering inputs and caster to change the chassis loading---then you get directional inputs from the axle :-o
Run very little caster and a rigid frame and you'll surely succeed in the sport. :-D :-D :-D
-
Reversing A arms approximately 13 degrees neg. will go straight all by it self!
-
unless you have to turn the strg wheel
-
Glad to here there is going to be another new comp coupe I would like to see the class built up.
Right now, I'm just toying with the idea. I do find the class very interesting.
-
First off, I assume when you say “Monza” you mean the front engine car and not the Corvair Monza . . .
If I were building a CC (and I am not) I would sell the Monza to someone that wants to run in the Classic Category (Pro, Gas Coupe, or Altered). Then I would look at what is out there and has set records. Just looking at the Bonneville CC record holders you can see a variety of bodies.
Keith Turk’s is an 80 Camaro running a pretty near stock shaped front end. The Trackmaster car on the other hand is a stretched early Fiat Topolino. If I am not mistaken the records set in CC by Wooden were mostly (if not all) done with a chopped and stretched Crosley sedan. The Burkland B-210 is mentioned above. The Stringfellow car is a stretched Chevy Cavaliar. The Bryant car (which crashed last year) was a chopped and stretched 34 Ford coupe. The Ace Allen car (also run in the E class by Joe Timney) was a stretched and chopped Chevette (gone now after a heavy crash). Huffman runs a Studebaker. Of course there is the Blowfish. In the smaller displacement classes you see the Hondata which is an Acura RSX (or maybe a Honda Civic?). Also the Geo Metro cars run by the Hudson boys are all small but there probably isn't any data on that body over 140mph or so.
If you are looking for small you also might try to get one of the following . . .
Fiat 600 (not sure if the Fiat 500 would be considered a 4 passenger car)
Crosley
Early Honda Civic
Honda 600s
Reliant Kitten (the 4 wheel one) from England
Toyota Starlet (or Starlight?)
American Austin Coupe
Mini Cooper (not the new one from BMW)
And there are others.
One issue with the really small cars (small frontal area) is that they tend to be hatchback shaped so I am not sure how good the aero is with the blunt butts.
Lots of choices . . . .
-
Rob, maybe we should try this approach?
(http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2010/1/29/93%20Souped%20Up_thumb.jpg)
-
Littleliner: RobF wants to buiild a Comp Coupe. There is no "comp coupe" in Classic as you have shown by mentioning the classes it allows in "selling" the Monza reply...
Since he has the Monza and if he ends up running in one of the classic classes, the Monza is the one to run.
I can't remember if anyone has stuck a 3, 4 or 5 foot nose on a Monza body style to make a true Comp Coupe (most just do a belly pan) but the way every on talks on its stabliity it may be the way to go.
Just another opinion......................
-
Add 36" to a chevy monza I think that would make a cool looking comp coupe. Chop the top Way cool, dont want to give away too much more just remember this is the funny car class of landspeed racing thats what I love about this class;
-
By the way I here there is another comp coupe be built do know what kind,I would like to know but I think they are looking at starting out as a C/BGCC.
-
I think Art Chrisman is building one, but I don't know what size motor he will be running. :-o
-
Add 36" to a chevy monza I think that would make a cool looking comp coupe. Chop the top Way cool, dont want to give away too much more just remember this is the funny car class of landspeed racing thats what I love about this class;
Me too!
-
LeF.. There is a shop over at Chrismans that was building a CC and was using a new Colbalt..Not sure if it was finished. They ask me to at for the chopping and I gave them my opinion on how to make it legal. I also had them check with the modified chairman for further charification...May not even be the same vehicle..........JD
-
JD, yep that's the one I was talking about. Thanks for the info. :cheers:
-
Two brief comments:
Caster, generally, needs to increase with tail heavy cars.
Competition Coupe, closely followed by Rear Engine Modified Roadster are the two SCARIEST classes to build because of the aerodynamic unknowns.
SpeedWeek 2009.
-
As already mentioned, the Classic Category is for vehicles 1928 -1981. The Monza fits in that category but there is no Comp Coupe class in Classic. You will have to run the Monza in the Modified Category that uses any year vehicle. This means your 1975-80 body will have to compete with very aerodynamic shapes created since 1981 to-date. The Monza has a Cd of 0.40 and 17.5 Area. It is not very hard to beat those numbers today. I think Allen told me the speed limit is about 247. After that there isn’t enough room to add enough ballast. :-D
I think this what you are thinking about. These guys ran in ’07 and are from New York. Nice bunch of guys and had a great time but I don’t have any more information. Their number would be on the run sheet. The top was chopped the legal amount. These pics have been shrunk to fit here. If you want hi res (1MP) email me.
-
Steve Batchelor's Monza ran high 240's with stock body heighth, stock wheelbase, stock rear spoiler and no real ballast, but a water tank in the back. I believe it weighed 2800-3000. Didn't have a hugh front air dam, either. Must be some other way to run a coupe besides doubling its weight.
Stan
-
Steve Batchelor's Monza ran high 240's with stock body heighth, stock wheelbase, stock rear spoiler and no real ballast, but a water tank in the back. I believe it weighed 2800-3000. Didn't have a hugh front air dam, either. Must be some other way to run a coupe besides doubling its weight.
Stan
There is... :-D
-
While the stock Cd is 0.40. That is not to say it wouldn't improve significantly when the front end is modifided. However, a lot of the Cd is determined by the rear end treatment and it is unknow how it contributes to the Monza Cd. With an area of 17.5 ft2, it is already very competative with many late model cars. I wouldn't give up on your dream . . .
-
Our Chevy Vega, which is the same chassis as a Monza, has gone out the back door at Bonneville at over 258 MPH.... fastest one way on the 254 record attempt was 255 plus. Steve Batchelor and I have, several times, discussed whether the Monza had better aerodynamics than the Vega and whether or not that was offset by the Vega being slightly smaller in the frontal area.... We figure the Vega, with its present engine combo at around 1000hp (at sea level) has several miles an hour in it yet. The Vega weighs 5000lbs (that IS correct!) full of fuel, water and driver.... the weight is down very low in the car and evenly distributed front to rear... our premise is that, at the drags, you just run bigger and stickier slicks to hook up... at Bonneville, you need the weight.... as we have discovered over the years, that, in some ways(living in Canada, where the lakes freeze cold enough to drive on them does have an upside, I guess), the salt is like racing on ice... skinnier tires and lots of weight seem to make the car hook up better. So, if we figure we can get the Vega to hit 260 with its present combo, what could it do with a supercharged engine putting out several hundred additional horsepower?.... I am pretty sure it would go faster but.... with 98" wheelbase, somehow, I do not think we will be the ones to find out the answer... and that is also why we started on Lakesters ....
Now, about the body choice itself, for a new classic coupe, I have my private choices ..... and I am NOT sharing them with anyone... but, if I was to build a new competition coupe, I would be combing the auto recyclers for the intact body (from the firewall back) of one of the NEW ultra high fuel economy cars... from Toyota, Honda, Ford or whoever... as these are not just ultra highly fuel efficent from engine technology... there is A LOT of aerodynamics involved as well.... these cars are SMALL in the frontal area and the back ends also look like the "hole in the air behind the car will also close quietly" .... the way people are driving cars these days, there ought to be a lot of bodies available.
And to all who do not know, we DID run the 254.153 mph B/Classic Altered record in the fuel class on gasoline....
I hope to see you in inspection with your car, whatever it is ..... good luck!
-
I hust went looking on the 'net... and I found a body.... I did a bit of cutting and pasting and filling in the colors... and... it has possibilities... a 2006 Honda Civic 2 door... I could not find a pic with the door closed ... sorry.... and you will be on your own chopping the top...
-
Nice concept. I wonder if Honda has a body in white program like the big three. It would be cheaper than converting a street car. Tony
-
While the stock Cd is 0.40. That is not to say it wouldn't improve significantly when the front end is modifided. However, a lot of the Cd is determined by the rear end treatment and it is unknow how it contributes to the Monza Cd. With an area of 17.5 ft2, it is already very competative with many late model cars. I wouldn't give up on your dream . . .
With a frontal area of 17.5 it seems the Monza would have a better cd. than .40
JL222
-
Even though drag is CdA it is composed of two unrelated attributes. Area is frontal area and has nothing to do with Cd (which is the shape). You can have a brick with an area of 2" x 4" or you can have a large egg 2" x 4". Both have the same area but a totally different Cd. In the case of semi-aerodynamic vehicles the Cd is sometimes mostly influenced by the rear configuration of the vehicle.
-
Fastman...That Civic looks more like a stretched Mercedes than a Honda...(I own 2 Civics) But I could be wrong and often am....JD
-
Hmmmm...How about thoughts on Vintage Comp Coupe bodies? Anyone? I have a vested interest in this one....although initially it won`t be going fast enough to experience Aero of any kind...
-
I would use a Bantom or Fiat coupe body and maybe a swing axle suspension. Just my 2 cents, Tony
-
1. Find the smallest frontal area. Remember that you can have a somewhat radical chop. Chopping the top improves Fa. Chopping the top can also make a cars exiting aeros improve (*or hurt if not done correctly). I suggest choosing a car with the mindset of chopping the top as much as possible and how that will affect aeros and vehicle exits.
Starting with the smallest Fa possible is a huge factor. Air exiting the vehicle is also as important.
Many people look at a car from aeros in the first half of the vehicle, in a class where you can streamline ahead of and including the cowl makes many aero ugly 1st half cars look really nice once stretched and streamlined.
(http://www.calculateme.com/car-pictures/old-red-saab.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x278/toymont/Bonneville/Bonneville08018.jpg)
Take Rex Svobodas' Saab, clearly not considered to me a top ten choice in high speed race vehicles but it has a deceptively small Fa and so-so front end in OEM form but with some aero massaging on the front the vehicle has taken on an entirely new profile and high speed potential.
(*on this note I have seen many Euro cars that would be great potential LSR project platforms).
2. OEM engine choices should not dictate (entirely) your discussion unless its required by class. However I do recommend many foreign cars for small engine displacement classes, if you are choosing small engines (clearly Rexs' Saab motor is almost as big as the entire car!). The Honda shown is a VERY good option in my opinion. Also the consider the Insight (rear wheel covers OEM!) and the Toyota Prius (if these cars are legal in CC). There are also a host of very interesting European cars that people as a rule dont consider and may prove to be very fast.
3. The Monza is not a bad choice.
4. Dont let the fact that LK or anyone is building a vehicle to run the same class prevent you from also building a vehicle for the class. Proper choices and HP will best any record. True some records are harder then others but we are all running the same salt and who does this BECAUSE its easy?
Good luck with your project....
~JH
-
Nice post, Jonny. And spot on. Love that last statement . . . how true! True some records are harder then others but we are all running the same salt and who does this BECAUSE its easy? :-D
-
Nice post, Jonny. And spot on. Love that last statement . . . how true! True some records are harder then others but we are all running the same salt and who does this BECAUSE its easy? :-D
Having had the opportunity to participate at the salt and another famous venue, this reminds me of another similar quote attributed to Matthew Webb. Who's that, you say? He was the first person to swim the English Channel (in 1875). Lots more folks up Everest and some more in orbit (I've heard) than manage a channel crossing. Going over 200 for a record sounds easy to some but those who know understand how hard it can be.
"Nothing great is easy."