Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: landracing on September 12, 2005, 02:11:56 PM
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Can we get our motor sealed before coming to Bonneville? Or are entrants allowed to do this instead of tearing down at the event???? If so who do we contact to do this and how do you find someone un-biased to do the measuring and sealing?
Jon
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How about if your motor is still sealed from last meet?
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Email Russ O'Daley or Tom Evans, they can give you the deal on the motorcycle side.
Russ: lsrmctech@adelphia.com
Tom: mrrodan@budweiser.com
Warner
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Dan,
Actually what do the car guys do, I think the MSA crew would like to have it done on their car before they come out for World Finals if it all comes together????
Jon
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How about if your motor is still sealed
from last meet?
I asked this very question at Speed Week, and was told no,
with a long explanation. The short of it was they used to do
it but quit because they felt it was not really secure. Now it
is on an event-by-event basis.
Mark
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!. Why are bikes different than cars ?
2. When did they seal a motor prior to an event ?
With the methods available, you should not have to disassemble a motor past stopping the valve action.
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Mr. Dolan said: "With the methods available, you should not have to disassemble a motor past stopping the valve action."
Hey Dan, Jack wants a job!
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!. Why are bikes different than cars ?
Two less wheels?
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Actually it is 1 less wheel.
Having acquired 41 AMA, SCTA, FIA,FIM records over the years, I am quite familir with the methods available.
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Thats fine Jack, use all your methods, I want to know about the method of sealing the motor before an event, so I can have more salt time, I dont have to dissassemble in nasty conditions, or risk rain out and not get done. etc etc the list could be endless on why to do it before going to an event.
I want to know if a car can get sealed if so what is procedure, and if a bike can do it what is procedure.
I have an email in to Tom Evan and Russ ODaley waiting for a response for the bike side. Dan can you tell me more for the car side and what needs to be done.
Jon
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With 400+ entries from all over the world, how do you propose it be handled so that it is the same for everyone ?
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Ok by that then is motor sealing before the event in use already ?????
Jon
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It sounds like no, looks like no, but it is still waiting for a better idea i'll bet.
It will be interesting to watch. 8)
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Jack said "Having acquired 41 AMA, SCTA, FIA,FIM records over the years, I am quite familir with the methods available."
Does this mean that engines I've built that have won or set records in SCTA, NHRA, ARCA, SCCA, IMSA, FIA, ASA, APBA, or NASCAR, (sense were name dropping) I don't know the methods? Jack, your not the only one here on the board who has set records or won races, some of us might have even gotten 9 folks into the into the 200 MPH club, 3 into the 300 MPH chapter, oh yea, and 2 more into the dirty 2, won races in IMSA, SCCA, ASA, etc. (and even qualified 5 cars at Indy in '87, Buicks don't ya know) but thats not a record or a win, might have set a front straightaway speed record at the time (239 mph) LOL. I guess thats why we go to the salt, to see what "you" can do.
Now as for the sealing of engines, what is the problem your having? Is the engine you ran 10 years ago or more still sealed and your wondering if you can pull it out of the north 40 and set more records? Do you just want to whistle every engine and no direct mesurement? Do you not care what size the engine is because your faster than the next 3 classes above you? If it's not the same for everyone does that mean it's not fair? Can you answer the question? I'm I wasting my time when the answer will be a riddle?
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I never raced ASA or ARCA and you are barking up the wrong tree with a pack influence.
You are confusing your sence of history with the problem that some have by having to verify and seal an engine after a record performance.
They (SCTA) have long standing procedures in place by the rules that have not been faced with a better idea. When you have one you are free to submit it. I know I did.. Exceptions for favorites are not the rule but some believe it is in practice. That is what gives rise to the question.
You can't get there from here.
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Not trying to tree the fox, just seeing a different hunt in your answers sometimes, doesn't mean I don't respect your past efforts.
But if a engine can be sealed after inspection why can't it be inspected and sealed? Isn't this the same type of thinking you've taught us?
As a last note Jack said "Exceptions for favorites are not the rule but some believe it is in practice."
Not in my experience, but if you ask me, why would one be dishonest for the goal if you know the truth.
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To verify the size of an engine prior to an event and secure it is certainly within the realm of the ability and the methods available.
To make that same thing available to 400+ entries is probably not in the cards.
Streamlining the process will do the most to make best use of the time. Limiting it to record applicants reduces the numbers and the best tooling even improves that.
I think SCTA has everything it needs to do the best job. It is the feeling of some that it is different for certain special people and that would cause a big problem with them.
The worst I have seen is the tech operator that is unable to use the tools properly.
One was using the wrong math, another didn't know how to use the pumper, and another was drunk.
that is what you sometimes get with the staff, but overall they do pretty well.
In the 3 cases I cited, nobody was cheating but the process was ragged.
None of those people are in a position to repeat those problems and it actually gets better with age.
If you have a better way, I will bet they would love to hear it.
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One was using the wrong math, another didn't know how to use the pumper, and another was drunk.
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Hey - that's me!!
Kidding aside, the way I handle the car side is to allow pre race measurement and sealing. Unfortunately, the logistics of being able to accomodate each and every entrant is not feasible. The local racers benefit the most from this procedure. The ECTA has also implemented this procedure in the past. The advent of the log book has been instrumental in the process by being the avenue to convey engine displacement and sealing process between the organizations.
As far as I am concerned, in the impound a sealed engine(no matter what year it was sealed in) is still sealed. I let the motorcycle guys run their side as they prefer. They like to measure each engine post record and then seal for further running.
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Dan was not one of those 3 I mentioned. It happened again just last week, but not with SCTA.
I think the explosion will come withthe difference in treatmnt from bike to car..
If the SCTA can handle the logistics and the logbook maintains the record, there you have it.
SCCA uses a system very much like that and NHRA has an extended inspection sticker that is used for some classes.
If you want to cheat, I suppose it is easy. Living with it is probably a little harder.
All the cheaters I caught over the years were allowed to do it by others that were sloppy, so it was a shared blame and result.
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Excellent answer Jack! Just the way i understand it. Wasn't that hard.
Hey Dan I still think Jack want to help in impound :wink:
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The politricks are beyong my level of patience.
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Guys this is just what I am getting at.
Equal opportunity...
There really shouldnt be a bike vs car side on this matter it should be an SCTA group policy.... I belong to the SCTA-BNI and as a whole is both car and bike...
If others are allowed the benefit of sealing a motor I think all entrants should be allowed to do it. And just letting certain people or part of the group and not rest should be looked at by the SCTA.
And as rule book states is section 1.H
"...Following initial measurement and certification of the engine, a wire seal will be attached to the engine so that the engine not be disassembled in the event additional records are set. This procedure applies to the CURRENT event only."
I was told many many many times that an engine must be torn down at the event it set a record, then a wire seal could be put in place. This follows what the rule book states... However if people are coming with sealed engines I would like all others to have the same opportunity. That means it doesn't matter if you live on east, west or midwest. If we come sealed that means less work time for the volunteers and more run time for entrant. If in event of a protest then you would have to tear down anyways for measurement.....
Emailed Tom and Russ a few days ago still no response....
Jonathan
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I cannot say with certainty, but experience tells me if this issue is pressed upon the board to make a decision on this that answer will be everyone tears down after each record.
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What has happened in years past was that vehicles that set records at El Mirage and were sealed were allowed to retain that seal at Bonneville. One year a now deceased East Coast racer had his motor certified by the builder and that was accepted in principal. (He did not set a record however). Since most motors can be checked by pumping or internal mikes, the displacement should be checked right after the record run. In to impound and take it apart. Saves the tech men the Friday backlog. The same for everybody.
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ARE THERE CAR GUYS WHO HAVE ENGINES SEALED
"BEFORE" SPEEDWEEK.........THAT SHOW UP AT SW AND
NOT HAVE TO GET MEASURED?????????????????????????
SOME SAY THIS IS TRUE.......SOME OF THOSE ARE FOLKS
WHO CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN MEASURED PRIOR TO A SCTA
MEET, AND LEGAL AT SCTA MEET WITHOUT MEASURMENT AT
THE MEET.........SOME CLAIMED THIS FACT THIS YEAR.............
THIS IS WHY THE QUESTION.............
AS IF ITS OK FOR """""""""SOME""""""""""FOLKS TO FOLLOW SUCH PROCEDURE........THEN OTHERS MAY INQUIRE AS WE DID HOW WE COULD ALSO FOLLOW SUCH A PROCEDURE.........
IE WHY WATCH ONE GUY QUALIFY AND BACK UP RECORDS.......TO
MOVE THROUGH TECH IN A SPEEDY FASHION.......TO GET BACK OUT AND RACE...........IE MUCH MORE TIME
TO GET OUT AND RACE.....LESS VALUABLE
SALT TIME INVOLVED IN THE LENGTHY TEARDOWN NEEDED FOR SOME.......
AND IF ITS OK FOR SOME CAR GUYS.......SHOULD IT BE DIFFERENT THAN
FOR SOME BIKE GUYS???????????????????//
CURIOUS joe :):)
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The engine only needs to be sealed once a record is broke. Then the engine is sealed so that more runs can be made without tearing down the engine. But the engine must be measure before leaving the salt. I think that the measuring must be done within 30 days after the meet.
I have broke a record then had the engine sealed. I finished the week out then went back and broke the seal in impound.
Doesn't everyone do it that way?
Doesn't a BNI official seal the engine? So an engine builder can't seal it then.
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We are speaking of just Bonneville not El Mirage that has it's own set of funnies.
First of all, you don't have 20 hours of track time. It is divided by the number of entries and is much more expensive than you state. Redo the math based on actual time underway and report back.
Next with reguard to sealing. What if you exceed a record and God forbid I am in the same class and actually racing against sombody at the same meet?
You exceed the record and follow all the procedures including sealing the motor without complete verification. I also can beat the standing record but you are faster. It looks like you have it so I do something else. What happens if at the end of the week or when you get home that you don't pass the final tech ? For example if you did something terrible like getting the class letter designation correct but misread the class number and you are bounced. What happens to me ?
Do everything on the salt the best way you can so everyone can get back to racing. The methods and tools available allow engine size measurement without pulling the head in most cases,
If Guthrie could make a dipstick work, it might even save him the trouble on his twice strokes.
The easier you make it the more time there is for everybody to do it right for everybody.
The different handling of the cars from the bikes is the lamest thing I have seen lately.
You can have experts for the visual and admin. aspects That is good, but a motor is a motor.
After the record procedures are complete from end to end I know what the new number is and I have to get to work against something real not a maybe.
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I think that many good points have been raised during this discussion. In my view, it all boils down to honesty, and fair play. I cannot imagine any satisfaction being gained by setting a record while cheating, but I know that not everyone feels the same as I do.
I talked with Jon at length yesterday by telephone and it seemed to me that the underlying issue is that there is a feeling that the "car guys" get preferential treatment over the "bike guys". This should not be! And as far as I know it is not so.
The way I view engine sealing is that a legal seal is a legal seal whether it was installed at the current meet or a previous meet or year. (Is there only one sealing stamp in existence or is there one or more floating around out of control of the Association?)
I have no problem with pumping my engine at each record occurrence. Removing a cylinder head is another issue. A major undertaking with my setup. I personally believe, within the confines of safeguarding the records, that it should be made as convenient as possible for the contestant to comply. Do we have the availability of pumping on the motorcycle side?
I have had the convenience of being measured and sealed while the engine was assembled, sealing and being measured later by a designated member of the association, and being measured at the event by both direct and sweep methods. All of these were deemed acceptable. It is true that the California, especially So. Cal., entrants have an advantage because of their location. Is it possible to designate certain members at various locations to act as agents for the association without compromising the integrity of our records?
After saying all this, I still will gladly sacrifice a day to prove my legality, but like everyone else, I would prefer to use that time in running the car. We do need clarification on this issue. We also should insure that all entrants are treated the same.
Tom, Redding CA - #216 D/FCC
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The pumping method was first introduced by the bike tech before the car guys bought the air pumper. The oil method used on the bikes is actually more accurate. Both require the valve train be disabled in the jug you are testing.
The dipstick is the easiest if it will work in your application. A vintage engine was even measured from the bottom and a Diesel from the side.
If you don't like pulling the head, you better figure a better way. There are lots of them.
The Push Rodders have it easy, the Cammers have more work The Wankers and 2 strokes just have to figure it out.
With over 600 views in 3 days, perhaps there is something wrong.
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A refreshing, reasonable, literate reply -- am I on the right website?
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I cannot say with certainty, but experience tells me if this issue is pressed upon the board to make a decision on this that answer will be everyone tears down after each record.
In that case they would be cutting off their race time to spite their sence of proper that is suspect anyway.
800 views, REMARKABLE.