Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: biglady112 on October 25, 2009, 03:53:56 PM
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I have had a large cooling system in the car for over a year getting the car prepared for an LSR event. I recently added a overflow tank as well that is now located in the rear of the car. Inside the cabin. The large system I am referring to is a 10 gallon cell located at the rear of the car also in the cabin. I am currently running a 90/10 water/coolant mix.
I understand the rules changed recently for blown cars to run straight water, but the only reason for the coolant at this point is I live in Denver, Co and the car is still driven from time to time.
I am going to begin the roll cage very soon, and need to know if I need to design one or more fire walls. I am also currently redesigning the fuel system and the car will have a five gallon cell also mounted in the rear of the car. Now I am pretty darn sure this will need a fire wall so not much of a question for this. I have a 2006 SCTA rule book, but cannot find any information on the answers I am looking for for my coolant tanks.
Keep in mind, both the 10 gallon tank and over flow are sealed units. The overflow is just like a stock setup in any vehicle. It is just mounted in the car. It does vent and overflow out of the cabin via a hold in the floor of the car.
Battery box(not relevant, but taking comments)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v739/biglady112/2007-06-26017-1.jpg)
Coolant overflow
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v739/biglady112/2007-06-26027.jpg)
10 gallon coolant tank
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v739/biglady112/2007-06-26098-3.jpg)
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The answer to your question is found in the statement. "If your tank split or ruptured in any way would you want the pumped 200 degree coolant hitting YOU".
Many cars have bulkheads between them and ANY liquid in the driver compartment. Good Luck
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I agree with JimmySix,,, I would want a bulkhead between me and the back of the car where the water and fuel tanks appear to be.
Charles
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Thanks for your recommendations, however, your replies did not answer the question. What I am comfortable with and what is the rule are two different things.
I am mostly concerned with the coolant tank. Not the over flow as it does not heat up.
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As a person that spent many years on the SCTA emergency response team and have seen what comes loose inside of a vehicle I would do everything I could to prevent any fluids from getting in the cockpit area. Tanks can rupture, hoses come loose and brackets fail. It's not a pretty sight. It's your butt you have to protect.
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Ok gentlemen. You all have been doing this longer than I have. And I understand that. Please do not recommend what I should do. I need to know for sure if there is a rule or not. As I said my 2006 rule book does not state anything.
My tank has four mounting points. The over flow weighs less than 10 pounds full and has two mounting points. This all makes a very very big difference in how I am able to design the roll cage.
I also need to know if just a wall or something say with silicone or foam is needed to seal it.
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log onto www.scta-bni.org. click on the rules and regulations tab on the left and submit your question to the committee. That way you will get an official answer.
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Fair enough. Like I said, this will play an improtant part in the cage design, which I am trying to build and design so I can trust it north of 200mph.
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I have a coolant tank up front in my car, and this year our inspector said my firewall was full of holes.
I explained to him the firewall was separating the engine compartment from the driver, and their were no "holes" in my firewall (being a mid engine).
I was made to put fire putty in the holes in the factory wall in front of the car because "a leak or rupture in the water system could result in a burn....".
I was able to run the car a few years before anyone had an issue....this year it wasnt the case.
I dont care that I had to do it....nor do I argue with the logic...but I would of had an issue if I was unable to run BECAUSE I couldnt seal it (like the tank would be mounted in the driver compartment). I would like to see a ruling that tanks and hoses designed for cooling the engine must have a secondary sealed wall (as in firewall) or allow tanks in the vehicle at your own personal risk.
Because its a GOOD idea to separate the tank from the driver, I would say there is about a 75% chance you WILL be asked to have a secondary shield about about 100% that you should for your own benefit.
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Also....loose the seat.
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What seat is that? Passenger or driver? This car thus far is a back up vehicle and I still take people for joy rides every now and again. I have not decided if I am going to try to keep a passenger seat with the cage or not. Most likely not, but it is nice to think that I could take someone if I wanted to and not have them sit on the floor as they have for the past two years. The seat was just recently reinstalled. With the way the cage is going to work, I will barely have any room for myself. Think funny car style cage. Built so I don't have to use a HANS device.
I am either going to purchase a kirkey or make my own.
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You need a new rule book, starting 2010 all new cars and motorcycle streamliners will require a head and neck restarint. Page 24 of the 2009 rule book.
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Glen's right on that. Kind of sad, but as safety issues continue to arise, the days of the dual-purpose LSR car have mostly drawn to a close.
Get thee to a rulebook.
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Need to share some comments on this subject.
Sat in on an inspection of a newly built Lakester Sunday that the owners dragged me out of retirement to build the body of.
Yrs truly's first ever built racecar went down a DRAGSTRIP in 1962, and I earned my living building them for over twenty years.
The SAFETY points brought up by the kindest, gentlest SCTA tech official Sunday (Jim Miller) opened my eyes to what the huge differences between building a SAFE drag car and building a safe Landspeed car is/are.
Even though lakes racing spawned the drags, there is beyond a world of difference in what it takes to be safe in a racer that when you hit the guardrail and before you stop the safety people are rolling to you and a Landspeed car that you could conceivably end up more than a mile away from a safety crew and maybe out of sight of them.
My suggestion: Go for overkill on safety.
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We all enjoy the sport and the regulations are often onerous but safety is the driving component to the rules. This year we suffered 2 fatal accidents. When it comes to safety just do it right ...
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IB, good advice. Well put, those of us that have been in this sport a long time know why every rule was written. When I started there were only a couple of rules. I look at the pictures of my old cars and really wonder why I drove them. Young and fearless back then.
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Bigdaddy112, keep the passenger seat. I have one in my car, it's fun to take a buddy for a ride.
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I am not suggesting you not have a second seat...only that the seat in the pic is full of vulcanized foam rubber, will catch on fire easily, producing toxic black smoke, unreal amounts of heat and is difficult to put out.
The same reason padded seats are not allowed for drivers is also applicable to passenger seats.
I say loose it.
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Oh yea, that is a given. I won't be buying the seat or making one until I am to that point with the told cage. There is going to be a frame built into the roll cage for what ever seat I end up with. A fixed seat situation. Gonna make all my tall friends mad.
Still on the fence about the passenger seat. I always believed in taking it out so that no one else would be in harms way. I am much more for getting rid of it at this point.
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biglady112
You made a remark earlier about eyes on 200 mph. That requires a full race car complience to the rules in all areas. There wont be room for a 2nd seat as this area will have fire systems and other components that would be a real pain to remove for a friend to take a thrill ride some where on the streets. You really need a current rule book as things change every year. The 2010 rules are being worked on now and will be posted in draft form when ready. The committee works very hard each year to get this done. As the due date for changes has closed for this year I doubt if any additional requests will be accepted.
Give a lot of serious attention as what you want as the end result on your build and where you plan to race it.
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Again, the seat is not important. And will most likely come out for weight and ease of cage design. Not to mention one less thing to work around. But yes, the goal is 200mph. And at this point seems awefully realistic. At least I hope so.
In regards to the ECTA, given the initial intention of this thread, does anyone know how they feel about my issue/question? Anyone in here race out there? I understand there is a sub-forum for that, but thought I would try here first.
As it stands, it is looking more and more like I may be shooting for Texas and Maxton. Those are a bit more up my alley anyway. 200 in one mile just mean a little more to me at this point. And in regards to Texas, they wouldn't know their head from a hole in the wall, so I could get away with murder down there, but I am trying to do this the right way. And be able to race where I would like if I decide to.
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FWIW, I attended Speedweek '08 and followed the inspection of a rear engine modified roadster as a crew member. Only equipment forward of the driver was lead acid battery and fire bottles. Inspector wanted some small gaps in forward "firewall" plugged to prevent acid from reaching the driver through them should the battery case crack for whatever reason. Repairs were made, good point taken and remembered for future project design and fabrication.
From my observation there are some differences between ECTA and SCTA requirements but ECTA is trying to stay as close as possible to SCTA so entrants won't have issues when they run SCTA. Loring is currently following ECTA requirements. No experience at Texas so can't comment on that venue.
In my opinion it would be best to build with both CURRENT books in hand to meet ALL requirements while keeping in mind these are MINIMUM requirements. Not a good time to think about upgrading partners if a big dance suddenly starts.........
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Been to Texas twice now. Tech inspection and rules are a joke. Plenty of cars running way to fast down there with literally nothing more than a helmet.
I have been to two WoS events at the salt. Both times with slower cars. 150 club actually. And I know it is not the same, but I am trying to get MY car ready now and just need to make sure. I am going to make a wall and bolt it to the floor around the cell. I would hope that is good enough. I have one of the young Sutton's to help me out. And if need be, his dad and his friends can help with anything I may need guidance on. Or at least I hope so. The MSA group has been doing this a while and the younger son is telling me I should. We may have come up with something to keep it a feasible project.
First things first, get the cage and parachute on. Then small details from there.
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Been to Texas twice now. Tech inspection and rules are a joke. Plenty of cars running way to fast down there with literally nothing more than a helmet.
I don't mean to be critical here. And I have never been to an event at the Texas mile so I have no grounds to refute what you said about how those events are run. But . . . .
If I were to go there I would feel compelled to have my car prepared and up to the safety standards (like ECTA or SCTA) as best I could even if I knew it might not be checked. I am sure if you go there you will do the same. I am not trying to imply I think you would do anything to risk your safety or anything of that sort. But someone reading your comments about the Texas events could lead them to assume that you might . . .
Safety and safety inspections are a key part of this sport. There is no excuse for racers intentionally cutting corners just because we think we won't be caught by the event officials.
OK now I'll put this soapbox back where I found it . . before someone asks me to stick it somewhere else.
Best of luck with your racing efforts. I am sure you intend to make it as safe as absolutely possible.
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I can assure you that Joe Timney of the ECTA will "ask" you to put in a firewall of some sort to keep the hot liquid from the driver. vic
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FWIW there isn't a rule that specifically states that you must keep your coolant tank separated from the driver's compartment. I think some people are making a way bigger deal out of this than there really needs to be. It's just hot water. If the guy's going 200 mph he's going to be in a -20 fire suit anyways. I'd sure like to think that a fire suit would protect against boiling water. I'd be more worried about something that actually burns like oil or fuel, not water.
FWIW#2 our roadster, which has been around for a very long time, has a 8 gallon water tank immediately behind the driver. No explosions, no burns, no fires, no nothing.
Fuel tanks, on the other hand, must be isolated from the driver's compartment. No two ways around that one. If you're working with Nick or Travis they'll get you squared away.
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I am thinking at this point that a small shell around it will suffice. At this point I don't have plans to seal it however. Where the tank is located is going to make this difficult, especially where the cage is going to end up. No doubt the fuel tank will be protected.
I am working with Nick.