Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: MotoMax on July 19, 2009, 12:04:41 PM
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A strange question I know, but it's one which I need to ask because it concerns the use of an engine I want to use for a motorcycle streamliner.
The engine in question is the Hartley V8 made from two Hayabusa engines jioned with a common crank and crankcase.
Does the fact that it uses Hayabusa parts, be good enough to satisfy the rule or would it be the fact that it is not made for any car or motorcycle, but could be used as a purpose biult motorcycle engine be good enough?
Or is it a none starter, i.e. am I going to cause a deal of controversy even considering it?
Please help,
cheers
Steve
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There have been entries that have used 2 coupled Hayabusa engines, so I think this is no different. I am not familiar with making the Busa into a V8, but love the fact that someone wants to do it. However it would not hurt to write to the SCTA M/C chief inspector inspector and ask.
Good luck.
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I think the engine must have originated in a motorcycle. You could not buy a V-8 Hayabusa motor, ,so it would not be a "motorcycle" engine.
The question was pretty thoroughly discussed a while back, and the example of the V4 in the Bub 'liner was brought out as a potential "non-motorcycle" engine -- since it was never available stock in a bike. But wait a minute -- the first time the engine was ever installed in a vehicle - it was put into the #7 bike. So therefore it IS a motorcycle engine.
The Ack bike runs a pair of 'Busa engines -- but they're separate, not twinned. And a few cars run 'Busa (and other brands, too) motors -- but those are cars.
For the absolute word please check with Tom Evans or Van Butler. But I think I'm right here. . .
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http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm its a car motor if that isnt enough look at the price page and the horsepower page 71 dollars per h p isnt a good deal willie buchta
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Seemslike there was a V-8 bulit in England for hillclimb cars using Yamaha 1000cc stuff some years back also -a CAR motor, too.
The Manning engine is a kinda chicken/egg - egg/chicken deal. Just re-read the SAE paper on that project and it was certainly purpose - built. The result of Manning meeting the gentleman at an SAE event and the topic of a LSR engine thus lead to the project.
In drag racing , from a statement by Terry Vance, the "Harley V-Rod" drag race engine was designed in - house by Byron Hines. I mean in Colorado, not Milwaulkee or Zuffanhausen.
IMHOP same deal.
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hummmmm..... streamliner ya say.?.!..... maybe you guys can point me to the page in the '09 black book that says ya gotta run a motorcycle motor?
love ya....
Kent
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page 112-- 7.H.18 page 125--- 7.J.5 7.J.6 7.J.9 7.J.10 the only exception i see is U F and U G and omega ---- UG and UF are streamliner only and omega is A-PS and Streamliner only thats the way i read it willie buchta
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I think that was the point. Who all remembers the KB2? Ran as a motorcycle for some time. Only KB Hemi powered bike I ever saw.
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Actually the BUB V-4 has been in two motorcycles. The first streamliner to have the engine was Tenacious II and in 2001 Rocky set a one way speed of 297 mph at Lake Gairdner Australia. The Seven Streamliner would be the second, having been designed to only carry the BUB V-4.
We currently have multiple engines in development, including a V-Twin version of the V-4.
I would imagine that you will be seeing this family of engines racing for some time at the salt- Eric
http://seven-streamliner.com/history/index.html
http://seven-streamliner.com/engine/index.html
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The Hartley is a non production based engine that uses Busa heads. I haven't spent too much time on the bike rules, but if the class rules require a stock block, you'd be out of luck.
I saw the factory mule Lotus 7 with the Hartley in it at a car show a little over a year ago - they're based here in Wisconsin. Yeah, it's expensive, but man, it is a jewel, and it sounds like a F1 Cosworth Ford.
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hummmmm..... streamliner ya say.?.!..... maybe you guys can point me to the page in the '09 black book that says ya gotta run a motorcycle motor?
love ya....
Kent
well?..... somebody help the guy out!....personally i was thinking the same thing in that I thought that engine choice was unlimited in that class? ?.
Yeah you're right , I'm a car guy, on the other side of the world ....and I wouldn't know peanut butter from shinola anyway.............:wink:
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Yeah you're right , I'm a car guy, on the other side of the world ....and I wouldn't know peanut butter from shinola anyway.............:wink:
Indeed! :-D
G
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Thanks for your advice and help so far, has anyone got Tom Evans or Van Butler's contact details?
I wanted to do something different and a twin turbocharged V8 busa appealed to me.
I thought this form of racing was rule less apart from the safety aspects of course.
Where else can ingenuity and lateral thinking be encouraged........surely we don’t want all future streamliners to be exactly the same? :oops:
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http://www.scta-bni.org/Rulebook/rule-question09.html
The 4 current MC streamliner contenders use vastly different engines.
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Max posted several months back about an English motorcycle effort using one of the British Hayabusa V8 engines from Powertec. I think that they are planning to be at the BUB. Go to General Discussion and look for "Yank Spanking" and you can see the engine specs and also a great pic of the "motorcycle" Pretty neat.
Rex
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"Where else can ingenuity and lateral thinking be encouraged"
Try NASCAR or IRL.
Methinks you're overstating your objections a bit.
I've never seen two streamliners alike.
Stan Back
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motomax the subject of this thread is scta rule questions---last year the scta clubs took a vote on letting motorcycles run car engines ----if you had a 09 rule book you would know the results of that vote ---if its a motorcycle it will run a motorcycle engine(s) (with a couple of exceptions) build something come on out and race and have a good time ---go to scta stores scta-bni.orghttp:// there are 6.772 billion people on spaceship earth about 500 will be at speedweek how much different do you want to be ---- you will find lsr is about going as fast as you can nothing else counts --- willie buchta
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Talk......talk....talk.....Blah....Blah.....Blah....but nobody has answered his question....so-far.............
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He can't get a "solid" answer on the internet. He needs to contact the folk in the SCTA who make the rulings.
Now just rambling...
I gotta admit I'm puzzled how a Busa engine can be thought of as a car engine. Even when you double the displacement, it's barely as big as typical econobox engine, and the smog control provisions are pretty meager for a modern car based on the year the Busa came out. It other words, no way in heck could a mfr put the Busa engine (even as a V8) in a production car. It's one of the reasons production car engines are hard pressed to match the HP/CI of bike engines, their design is restricted because they must be installed in cars that obey government laws, as well as being able to power a heavy vehicle reliably at low speeds.
But if I were concerned about the fact the company advertises this race-only motorcycle-based engine as being a "car engine", I'd probably contact them and request they make a motorcycle-only version for you. Probably install a very weak horn on it or have it shipped with a handful of pre-addressed speeding tickets.
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its pretty obvious to me that most of you havent read the scta rule book --that would be a good place to start ---if after that you still have questions you can address them to the scta --- if you read 7.J.1 through 7.J.13 and 7.D.1 through 7.D.4 and page 176 through 179 you should be able to figure it out willie buchta
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Interesting.....to say the least.....For many years we ran a 125c.c. Rotax engine powered bike....the engine was actually a racing kart engine (so not legal as per SCTA/BNI) However, the Rotax factory also sold this racing engine to motorcycle roadrace teams......so it was a motorcycle engine after all........I had the factory supply me with paper work noting it was a "motorcycle" engine.....just in case we had a protest.................
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Certainly it could go UG or UF class, since it's unlimited. I guess the big question would be the F, G, BF or BG engine classes.
"F,G,BF,BG" engine (paraphrased) 'unlimited design and comprised of major components designed for motorcycles'. I'd think it would qualify, but I'd certainly get a firm SCTA decision on it before building for those classes. It does not specify how much motorcycle content is required, or how "designed for" is defined.
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And then......and then.....Back in 1980 I came to Bonneville with a bike powered by a proto-type Rotax
engine using the front halve of a 500c.c. snowmobile and the back halve a Norton gearbox......Can-Am planned to market this for a very fast street bike (they never did) This engine was build for a motorcycle only by the Rotax factory.........Tom Evans said "not a motorcycle engine..Time only" I had no paper work indicating that it WAS a motorcycle engine.....so ran for time only (it was fast).................................
How many records are on the books using a Vincent drone engine?????? Square barrel 500c.c. Tri. engine
(generator engine)................It is a "grey area" and always will be....................................................
PS> I know......I know.... the square barrel Tri. engine was used in the Tri. bike in 1948.....and it even won the Isle of Man that year..................................................................................................
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i believe you can modify an engine to whatever extent your money can buy..... you can cut your crankcases up and melt them down to cast whatever main case you wish.... that V8 uses production hyabusa motorcycle cylinders, heads, cams, etc... as a motorcycle rules committee member if the question came to me for a vote i would say yes.... but i am not the last, final, or official vote.... ask Tom "AND" Van..... Yes, the brits are commin with one....
Kent
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Cheers Rex..........It appears there is an outfit from the UK that are doing the same thing (http://www.angelicbulldog.org.uk/) and like all coincidences I know the guy building it “Gabriel Uttley” we use to chat regularly in the pits at Le mans in the mid 90’s during world endurance events......small world isn’t it.
Also Kent......Thanks for the vote of confidence and reason, there should me more open minded people like yourself....do you have Tom and Van’s email addresses? I suppose they will be in the rule book, but mine hasn’t arrived yet....it must be coming on a slow boat.
I have entered this year’s Bubs on a Turbocharged CBR600RR that I built five years ago for competing at the Macau GP........looking forward to it, I suppose I will get the answers to my many questions whilst there.
Good luck everyone! :-)
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Yes Steve, Kent is a hero with his head firmly screwed on in the right place! This debate will run, but the big question is whether it is FIM legal, as you cannot attempt the record at Speed week through the SCAT, where we will run for time only next year. Regards, Gabriel.
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The Powertec motor may have a slight advantage over running a pair of Hayabusas like the Ack Attack, it may be marginally more efficient because it has only one crank and does not require a chain to connect two engines together, but the real horse power is in the heads and the heads and cylinders on the Powertec are motorcycle parts plain and simple. Can't see it not being legal, it would not exist today if it wasn't for a motorcycle.
With a big enough pile of money I am sure you could take a pair of motorcycle engines set them side by side so the cranks went north and south and you could cut off the cases until you could connect them with a gear train and then use a tranny like the Powertec Quaife and have about the same thing as a Powertec and I would certainly think there would be no question about the legality but why reinvent the wheel, the Powertec engine already exist and it is a spin off of a motorcycle engine.
Rex
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My way of thinking is that the Powermax or whatever it is called is sold solely as a powerplant it could run a Tractor a Ditch Pump a Washing machine it is not dedicated to any one thing until it is coupled to a gearbox and drive train then it becomes the power unit for whatever it is linked to.
Are we going to stop the use of Aircraft engines in cars,It would have stopped alot of guys in the past setting some increible records.
I understand saying you cnt use a car engine in a bike,Say a chevvy v8 or something but this engne is just a power plant with no dedicated vehicle in production as far as I know.
And its kinda half bike
just my ten peneth!!
Oz
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An angelicbulldog website claims 450 mph base and adding 300 hp nitrous along with claims of better aero and more power then competitors... How about reliability? 300 hp nitrous is not very reliable power... Those who have history with nitrous can tell you that it is very hard HP to tame... Call it cheap mans HP, but in reality it is expensive.... Put a turbo on it and you can build all the reliability you want. Hard to beat out aero of Sam wheeler..... More power to them...
Also in regards to original post it stinks that car guys can use a motorcycle powered engine but bike guys can't use a car engine. Does that not sound right?
I saw early years photos seventies and 80's of car engines in bikes however I dont know when or why the rule changed.. Need Dolan for that one...
JonAmo
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guess SCTA want's to keep the Boss Hoss Crowd off the salt....
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yep! exactly....
Kent
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Jon,
WE are not "claiming" anything better than anyone else, just our own design and power levels. You should know me by now! I don't think anyone can beat Sam's aero, and Ack's power is unbelievable....we are using a new controller, and hope to use much less nitrous than stated, though it would be a pig to come over all the way from the UK, and not have enough power......who knows what is really achievable on the salt with two wheels? Al struggled with Betsy for long enough....
We have done a lot of calculations to assist our design work, and I mean a lot! We will come over in 2010 as prepared as possible. Thank you everybody for your support! I still think our engine is a motorcycle-derived engine.
Kent, is there a direct email for Tom please? Regards, Gabriel.
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gabriel where do you plan running at an scta event or bub thanks willie buchta
i have submitted a rule question and will post when i get an answer---------------------
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We plan to run at Speed Week 2010, for time only, and then attempt the record at BUB 2010.
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i give up---on july 27 i filled out the scta rule clarification page --that day i got a conformation that they received my question ---haven't heard from anyone sense---its been almost a month---good thing it wasnt information i needed for bonneville--maybe they will get back to me before sept el mirage---will let you all know if and when willie buchta
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Willie,
Am am sure having Bonneville in that time frame did not help.
Tom G.
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you have a point --- but so do i willie buchta
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Thanks for your help Willie. It would be great for the SCTA to confirm it is ok for our engine, as like Kent says, we have only taken two Busa engines and modified them. We have the option of a 3200cc motor, but it would mean a totally new class being formed by the FIM...are they capable? They have not replied to me in the last six months.... I am coming over to BUB to speak to Charlie, so we will see what he thinks, if he will respond. Regards, Gabriel.
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Guttley, keep in mind if you are running for "time only" at BNI Speedweek 2010......you do not need clarification as to if it is a motorcycle engine powering your liner..........as to running for FIM record
....this is something you will need to check into with the FIM...................................................
As to checking with "FIM Charlie" at this years BUB.......it is my understanding he will not be there....but will be at the Cook Shootout event............................................................................................
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To clarify my last post..........when I ran our snowmobile powered bike at Speedweek, Tom told me
"time only, not a motorcycle engine"............as long as it meets the safety rules they have let you run....
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bob in an earlier post i said there were a couple of exceptions ---time only is one of those--a vehicle that doesnt fit in a class will be allowed to run after passing tech inspection----willie buchta
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even if Charlie is not at BUB, surely they will have a representative there for the records? We need to run at speed week to tune the engine for the altitude, in preparation for the BUB meet, so time only, or whatever, it does not matter.
As Kent says, quite rightly, there is nothing in the FIM rules which states motorcycle engine, but again ours is only modified Busa engines...Are you part of the motorcycle tech guys now at Speed Week, Willie?
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I have Tom Evans' email address and telephone number.... private email me.... but I will add this...... Kenny Lyon ran a V4 Harley and IT WAS regarded as a motorcycle engine.... so why NOT a V8 'Busa.... I do not see any difference in principle to a V4 Harley....
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the v4 bike was mike maggios unlimited a-pg ----------the rule for ENGINE are "any single or duel combination of motorcycle engine is permitted " and no im not part of tech but i can read a rule book---interpreting it now thats another story
willie buchta
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will you be at BUB Willie?
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no our budget wont allow it this year --we wont make the world finals ---we still have 3 races at el mirage this year and that will take our extra moneys good luck to all and be safe willie buchta
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.......guttley......willie is a great resource.......but
i have to ask........
have you tried to contact an scta representative to
garner answers and clarification to any questions you might
have ....???...........
.......maybe they have simplified it too much......
...i had a question....i obtained one of the many contact
numbers for motorcycle tech officials.......(so deviously hidden
on the internet and rule book give to anyone who asks/enters and or
pays for one).........
then i called Mr. Van Butler...........he answered the phone......i asked
rules clarification questions...........he answered them........enthusiastically.....
i would also join in on the assistance police force...to get your questions answered
but you might...do....have the best working knowledge of the specifics pertaining
to your querie.......
i sure as heck REALLY WANT TO SEE the Uttley mobile on the salt....!!!!!!
....ive learned that situations are only as complicated as we allow them to be.......
Joe
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no our budget wont allow it this year --we wont make the world finals ---we still have 3 races at el mirage this year and that will take our extra moneys good luck to all and be safe willie buchta
Where did you get "Extra Money" from...?
J
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Hi Joe,
Thanks for your support! I am coming to BUB to talk to "people". I hope to see you and your brother again! John, I gather you are not going to BUB? Am I right? I hope not. Anyway, I fly on Friday, 7am, via Amsterdam and Minneanapolis to SLC. Looking forward to it! Sorry you won't be there Willie. We will just have to meet at Speed week next year! Regards, Gabriel.
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looking forward to it ---i might jump on the street bike and take a ride to bub willie buchta
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Right up front I'm a newby...never riden at Bonneville or El Mirage. Been racing longer than I care to admit so I've played around with rule books for many years. So the following comments are just my thoughts........Hope I don't offend anyone, that's not my intent.
Two thing standout at the beginning of this thread.
You're saying the engine is a Hartley V8. So since Hartley never made a motorcycle... is the Hartley V8 a motorcycle engine? (Not with any sanctioning body I know of.). Then you said "the Hartley V8 is made from two Hayabusa engines joined with a common crank and crankcase." So the crank is not a Suzuki part and neither are the cases, right? So I guess you're going to use the Suzuki rods, pistons, heads and possibly the tranny. In essence you're going to use an aftermarket set of cases that aren't knockoffs of any manufactures engine and an aftermarket crank that is unlike any crank put in motorcycle sold to the public?
I don't know of a sanctioning body in the world that would let this engine run in motorcycle class.
Take a look at the rules related the vintage car class. A couple of builders have built their own modified castings of olders engine blocks with different cylinder spacing and deck heights and have (or are) trying to get them certified to run in the vintage class. They are only modified casting of original manufactured blocks and they probably will not be able to run in the vintage class. What the chance they'll let you run in a motorcycle class with a set of cases and a crank that aren't even designed for a bike?
Now all that being said....There doesn't seem to be an engine rule in the SCTA Special Construction Motorcycle class, looks like it a loop hole....
Good luck,
Buzz
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....Gabriel.....since Charlie wont be there anyway to talk to...
...why dont you and I meet in Amsterdam......and discuss stuff,
i can tell you how the salt is and so and so....amster. is a better
venue for philosphical enlightenment...(that we all need anyway
to unlock/facilitate understanding).....
I REALLY had hoped to be at BUB this year.....I had vacation
time approved at work and such.....
BUT SCTA rules changed allowing for some new area's of potential
innovation.......so i made changes to bike..........
BUT BUB rules now dont encompass the new changes, and i dont
want to hack apart bike to possibly run slower....so I gave away my
vaca time at work for bub dates, and finangled (new word) vaca time
for WOS, and im hoping all the planets line up for that one with respect
to running..........
maybe Willie can bring some philosophy with him from socal....powow with
you on salt, then he (and you..?) could trek to the Black Hills of South Dakota
for more relaxation, stay at our place...?....(crazy horse monum., mount rushmore, badlands
etc...maybe a "sweat" with some Lakota)....
if willie "tops off" himself like he does the fuel vessel on his bike it should be grand.....
Joe
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buzz i think you got it--the hartley engine doesnt have a transmission it has a car type bellhousing-----motorcycle gas and fuel class "unlimited in design but shall be composed of major parts and componets designed primarily for use in motorcycle engines" in the pushrod gas and fuel class "any motorcycle engine with pushrod operated valves" still waiting for the letter from the scta willie buchta from central calif. modesto
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OK,
Since nothing was posted I spoke with Van Butler regarding the legality of the V-8 Busa being used in motorcycle streamliners for SCTA racing events, I was told the following:
"Since most of the engine parts are comprised from the Hayabusa engine (heads, valves, cylinders, pistons etc) the engine is legal for the following frame classes A (Altered) APS (Altered Partial Streamlined) SC (Side Car) SCS (Side Car Streamliner) and S (Streamliner)"
End of debate and I hope this adds some clarity to the question of it being legal. :cheers:
John
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Part of the hiatus in coverage of the Bub's event over the last few minutes -- was us talking with Gabriel Uttley about this very item. I'll let him know that Van has offered some feedback -- I expect he'll be glad to hear it.
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i have a letter from van stating what john said ---i would suggest if you wanted to run this motor or anything like it you get a copy of this letter --if you need one i will forward it to you including the letter i wrote for a rule clarification --i would also suggest you take a copy to tech with you willie buchta
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i have a letter from van stating what john said ---i would suggest if you wanted to run this motor or anything like it you get a copy of this letter --if you need one i will forward it to you including the letter i wrote for a rule clarification --i would also suggest you take a copy to tech with you willie buchta
Willie,
If you had the farking letter you should have posted it, I could have saved the 20 cents and equal amount of minutes on the phone..
J
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sorry john i will be glad to give the 20 cents ---i just thought i would wait until all of the bub posting was over so that everyone might have a chance to see it --the question to scta ---their response ---my response---there response---when the bub posting is over i will post it if someone wants to view or copy it for future reference ----you always seem to have problems with the phone ---willie buchta
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"Since most of the engine parts are comprised from the Hayabusa engine (heads, valves, cylinders, pistons etc)
Not trying to stir the pot, but I hope what goes in the rule book is clearer than this.
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sorry john...----you always seem to have problems with the phone...
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Miscellaneous%20stuff/rotfl.gif) (http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Miscellaneous%20stuff/rotfl.gif)
Mike
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you are right it isnt clear at all --i would think that major engine parts would at the very least include the cases and crankshaft ----------if i get a chance i will post the letters today ---willie buchta
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we've been down this road before...... what about S&S cases and other aftermarket cases..... what about if i decided to make my own billet or cast cases.... this special construction motor is classified and will be used where it belongs..... in special construction..... let it go.....
Kent
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sorry john...----you always seem to have problems with the phone...
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Miscellaneous%20stuff/rotfl.gif) (http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Miscellaneous%20stuff/rotfl.gif)
Mike
Mike,
You are lucky that you deal with the Vintage class Roadster or we would take your records too.. (http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Miscellaneous%20stuff/rotfl.gif) (http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Miscellaneous%20stuff/rotfl.gif)
Thanks for the icons... :wink:
John
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Willie,
What I was stating was if you had the answer already you should have posted it..
POST IT ! ! ! ! :-D
J
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we've been down this road before...... what about S&S cases and other aftermarket cases..... what about if i decided to make my own billet or cast cases.... this special construction motor is classified and will be used where it belongs..... in special construction..... let it go.....
Kent
Kent,
Also SC, S, SCS... :wink:
John
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you are right john --i received the final letter yesterday--i have a few minutes and will post them now --the first post is a question to the scta---the second is a reply from van butler--the third is my reply to van butler ---the forth is vans reply back to me --
Here is the information submitted towww.scta-bni.org/Rulebook/rule-question09.php from 76.125.46.31 on Sunday,July 26th, 2009 at 4:14 pm.------------------------Name: willie buchta Address: 921 chicago ave City: modesto State: California Zip Code: 95351 Home Phone: 209-6816876 Email Address: willieworld@hotmail.com Cell Phone: 209-6816876 Rulebook Section: 7.J Rulebook Page No: 124 Question: there is a company that makes a hayabusa V 8 engine they use the top end from the hayabusa and make the cases and crankshaft ---the motor has a car transmission bellhousing pattern on the back of the motor-------what motorcycle classes can i run this motor in ? thank you willie buchta
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This is Van Butler's reply.
V 8 Busa
From: Catherine Juneau (catherinejuneau3@mac.com)
Sent: Sat 8/29/09 12:30 PM
To: Sheri buchta (willieworld@hotmail.com)
Cc: tom evans (oileaky2@yahoo.com)
Willie.Thank you for the question sorry it took me so long to get back to you we were busy with Speedweek. To answer your question yes the V8 Busa is legal and you can run it in these classes, A, APS, Streamliner, Sidecar, and Sidecar Streamliner.Kind Regards,Van Butler
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Then I wrote back to Van and tried to present the other side of the story...
Van,
Thank you for your response. You've been doing this a lot longer than me, but upon reading my rulebook, I find some exceptions to my answers. In the A class, which is special construction, on page 116 7.g.9 under engine: "any single or dual combination of motorcycle engine is permitted." Under streamliner on page 121 7.h.18 engine:"Any single or dual combination of motorcycle engines permitted." Under page 125 7.j.5 class f : " Unlimited in design, but will be comprised of major parts and components designed primarily for use in motorcycle engines." Page 125 7.j.6 class g:"Same as class f." Page 125 7.j.9:class pg and pf :" Any motorcycle engine with pushrod operating valves. The camshaft shall be located at least one crankshaft stroke below the OEM cylinder deck postion or that utilize OEM pushrod length at least twice the crankshaft stroke. 7.j.10, Class vg and vf:"Same as class g or f except that the class is limited to motorcycle engines produced prior to 1956.
If I read that correctly it seems that none of those classes would allow a v8 hyabusa or any v8 thats built with a set of motorcycle barrels and heads as the only motorcycle part in the motor. And that doesn't have a transmission and the back of the motor is set up for a car bellhousing clutch and transmission. There are a couple of classes that do allow motors other than motorcycle. And according to the rulebook,that would be page 126 7.j.12 and page 109 Any reciprocating engine which uses the otto cycle, May run in streamliner category. Super charged engines do not advance class size. 7.j.13 class omega" Any engine using a thermal dynamic cycle other than otto." Page 109 7.d.4
A all except ug,uf and omega."
APS Al excetp ug and ug.
S all
SC all except omega
SCS all except omega. '
Thats what the rulebook says.
The way I read it that means no car engines except for ug and uf. If memory serves me corretly last year there was a vote taken if we should allow car engines in the motorcycle classes and the vote was no.
Please don't respond with your wrong. When you respond let me know why so I can understand better.
Willie Buchta
I'm new to all this, If I have it wrong please let me know.
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In which he replied:
Re: V 8 Busa
From: Catherine Juneau (catherinejuneau3@mac.com)
Sent: Sun 8/30/09 8:43 AM
To: Sheri buchta (willieworld@hotmail.com)
Cc: tom evans (oileaky2@yahoo.com); Roy Creel (cree@antelecom.net); Lee Kennedy (Lee.Kennedy@avmetrics.net)
Willie
Thanks , I will take each one of your issues and explain.
In the case of the V8 busa , it does not matter what kind of bellhousing, transmission, ect,
it uses. The issue is the engine. In this case the engine is comprised of major parts and
components designed primarily for use in motorcycle engines. The cylinders, pistons,rods,
heads, cams, ect, ect. (7 j 5 - 7 j 6).
7 g 9 - correct, any engine is permitted.
7 h 18- correct, any motorcycle engine is permitted.
7 j 5 - correct, as I explained above.
7 j 6 - same as above.
7 j 9- does not apply, this is not a pushrod engine.
7 j 10- does not apply, vintage?
7 j 12- correct, any auto cycle or (conrod) engine is legal.
7 j 13- does not apply, this is for electric, thermodynamic, air car, ect.
As for the rule change request you asked about, I reviewed all of my records from last year.
It was sent, by email to Motorcycle Racer Advisory Board, and the Motorcycle Rules Committee, for review. Then to the SCTA Rules Committee for vote. It was.........
Issue: In the motorcycle special construction class, it is time we let any internal combustion
2 stroke or 4 stroke otto cycle motor run. We need to take out the word " motorcycle "in the
engine section.
The vote was to DENY the rule requests change.
I hope this clears up your questions.
Regards, Van Motorcycle Committee Chair
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please note someone submitted a rule change to drop the word motorcycle from the engine rules (which would have let in car motors in the motorcycle classes) the vote was NO ----enough said willie buchta
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so Willie.....
what is your motivation behind your letters to the SCTA? were you, and are you going to buy and run a V8 busa powered motor? or were you just stirring up crap?
kent
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:-o Willie stir up crap? NNaaaawwww, never happen! lol lol lol Crow.
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no kent im not going to buy a v8 busa motor or any other busa motor ---i was just curious if the no car motor rule (voted on last year) would be enforced --as you can see it isnt going to be --this is not the first time ive ran into the rules not really meaning what they say---i guess in the end we will have to get a stack of letters to take with us to tech---i just think the rule book should be more precise--and then we wouldnt be having this discussion---but im not in charge (and dont want to be) land racing is not a lifestyle for me its just something that i enjoy doing ---and i would enjoy it a lot more if i didnt have to worry about the rules being interpret one way this week and another next week ---if asking questions is "stirring up crap " put my name on the list just spell it right Willie Buchta
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:cheers: That's my boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love ya Willie.......Crow.
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"Please don't respond with your wrong."
It helps when criticizing a literal meaning of the rules to do it literately.
Stan
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what i meant stan was for van to please not just to say that i was wrong but if he thought i was to explain why he thought i was---i wasnt convinced willie buchta
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I spoke to Van one time and was clear as a freshly wiped window as to what the engine could be run in (and also to what it could not be run in as well) however now I see that Willie must be getting one for Sheri's new bike..20K :-o
Congrats willie, tell her to hold on tight, that motor makes about 275+HP at the wheels in a car. :wink:
John
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no we are pushrod folks our best sponser is the local harley shop --- as you can see van was very clear in the letter also---i just dont think it matched the rule book--but i will go with what van said--but that doesnt mean i wont try to change it --i really believe the motorcycle classes should be reserved for motorcycle engines -------------------------willie buchta
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....im sure Mr. Uttley appreciates you working on that clarification.....
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>....im sure Mr. Uttley appreciates you working on that clarification.....
Add my thanks. Not only for the rules clarification but the general range of opinions.
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Willie
please tell us exactly what rule "YOU THINK" that the SCTA is not enforcing.... and maybe while your on a SCTA bashing roll, maybe you can tell up of exact instances that you have first hand knowledge of the SCTA not enforcing their rules (no hearsay)
Kent
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Here's something I didn't learn until this morning, when Denis Manning was talking at/with me: The motor in the Bub #7 bike is NOT a "one-off". There are two of them -- one for the dyno and testing, the other in the bike.
So - it's a two-off -- I'll allow you to say that.
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Here's something I didn't learn until this morning, when Denis Manning was talking at/with me: The motor in the Bub #7 bike is NOT a "one-off". There are two of them -- one for the dyno and testing, the other in the bike.
So - it's a two-off -- I'll allow you to say that.
JW,
Actually I was told Dennis had three sets of cases and enough parts to assemble two engines.. :cheers:
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Just out of curiosity. Would a Busa V8 be classified as one engine or two? In other words, would you be allowed to run two of them?
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it is one engine--they might make you a deal on two ----what class would you run in willie buchta
http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562069.htm
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Blimey...........I never thought my question would cause that much of a response......Thank you All!
We had a good result for our first time out at Bub's on our Cbr600rr (MPS650BG) we managed the FIM record and 190mph out of the little thing.
I suppose I should put my money where my mouth is now and build a V8 monster.............See you all on the Salt..........Steve Burns
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Just out of curiosity. Would a Busa V8 be classified as one engine or two? In other words, would you be allowed to run two of them?
In the classes they run you could run 4 of them if you could afford it...
Just because they have adapted bike parts to cars does not make them car parts and exclude them from bikes :|
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in the motorcycle classes only 1 or 2 engines are allowed willie buchta
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in the motorcycle classes only 1 or 2 engines are allowed willie buchta
That is why I was wondering if one V8 which is essentially two Busa motors joined with a single crank and crankcase counts as one or two engines.
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in the motorcycle classes only 1 or 2 engines are allowed willie buchta
That is why I was wondering if one V8 which is essentially two Busa motors joined with a single crank and crankcase counts as one or two engines.
One engine only...
J
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how many V8's does Tom have in the 411?
kent
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i believe there are 2 engines in the 411.
franey
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He*l and they think roadster racers are nuts and , well you know :roll:
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Roadster racers are the only sane ones of the bunch...Only the Board screwed up by allowing M/C engines in vintage classes. :? :? :? :evil:
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Roadster racers are the only sane ones of the bunch...Only the Board screwed up by allowing M/C engines in vintage classes. :? :? :? :evil:
I say what is good for the Goose is good for the Gander. Since Motorcycle engines are allowed to run in Cars, Car motors should be allowed to run in all Motorcycle classes. :evil: :evil: :evil: Until that is allowed we should have keep them separate.
Tom G.
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now come on.... dont start that again.....
kent
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now come on.... dont start that again.....
kent
Now come on Kent... I think they have a valid point.... I think they should be able to run car motors in any of the altered classes... and vintage.... and pushrod..... Which car motor fits 125cc A/VPG
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there is no auch class it would be a-vg ----- special construction-vintage gas----willie buchta
http://www.scta-bni.org click on el mirage and then bike speed minimums and you can see all of the bike classes ---at bonneville you will also have the modefied classes willie buchta
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......thanks for the clarification Willie......i think he was wondering which car engine would fit
one of the known conventional classes in rule book.....
...125.cc...........sidecar......streamliner........vintage........supercharged.......on.......fuel..........
or
....125...cc........sidecar........streamliner.......pushrod.........supercharged......on......fuel........
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i got it--i think the car folks are going to regret letting the motorcycle engines into the car classes more than the motorcycle folks are in letting the car engines in the motorcycle classes----the motorcycle engines overlap the car classes at the smaller engine sizes and the car engines overlap the motorcycle classes only at the bigger engine classes-----my class is 1000 cc sc-pg im not worried about any car engines --even the 1350 1650 2000 cc classes---- a car engine might fit in the 3000 cc class and for sure the over 3000 cc class---i think though that the motorcycle engine inch for inch will make more hp than a car engine and hold together for 5 miles 2 times---and remember the engine still has to be comprised of major parts designed for use in motorcycle engines (which the busa v8 isnt but thats for another thread) there is 2 classes for car engines in the motorcycle classes ug and uf and a blower doesnt move you up a class go for it ---just some thoughts willie buchta
thats 125 cc scs-vbf and 125cc scs-pbf (there is no pushrod class in vintage class)
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I don't know why anyone would worry about car engines in bikes. "Boss Hawgs" ain't going to take over the world.
Perhaps the Ecotec? GM engine would be a threat, since it looks just like a DOHC bike engine and has factory parts that can take it past 1000HP, but seriously, that is only a concern to a very limited number of classes.
Bike engines in cars though is another matter. This potentially eliminates those who want to push the limits with the small displacement car engines, and isn't likely to improve bike engine technology. I don't see an "upside" to it. Yes, we all know that more RPM is more better, and when you remove the limitations of what is required to propel a 2500lb car for 100,000 miles on the street and meet SLEV/CAFE/EPA standards, you can do a lot more with an engine at the OEM design stage. There never will be a production car engine that is going to compete simply because there will never be a need for a 13,000 rpm engine for a 600lb car with smog exempt status. Only from-the-ground-up race engines could. Or motorcycle engines. You might have noticed that Suzuki does not put the Busa engine in their cars. Seems logical that they would. But nobody wants a 15mpg economy car. Suzuki DOES make car engines in the displacement range of the Busa, and they work very well in cars.
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........willie exactly.....hence my post........pretty much verbatim from rule book..body title...
""...125.cc...........sidecar......streamliner........vintage........supercharged.......on.......fuel..........
or
....125...cc........sidecar........streamliner.......pushrod.........supercharged......on......fuel........"""
wouldnt want to mix pushrod and vintage......to keep it fair and all.......
....what about my vintage rotary......?......
mcrat.......this thread took off.....almost nearly NOBODY cares
about trying to run car engines in bikes......specially, obviously in small displacement classes....
...but hey........someone might.....we could make some classes perhaps for it.....
(ie........the current ability to "race" 50cc-sidecar-streamliner-pushrod-supercharged-fuel)
some of us are just deriving some entertainment from it.......
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At ~$4000 for a factory replacement crate motor, the Ecotec is not exactly online to take over the small engine world. :mrgreen:
http://www.jegs.com/i/GM%20Performance/809/19156263/10002/-1?CT=999 (http://www.jegs.com/i/GM%20Performance/809/19156263/10002/-1?CT=999)
How much does 1000 hp cost?
Mike
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Oddly enough, GM has published docs publically on how to take the Ecotec up to wild HP numbers. Very detailed. I heard they worked with guys like Lingenfelter (RIP) to develop them. I've never played with Ecotecs other than helping with some digitizing, so I'm just going by second hand knowledge from racers.
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Willie, I'm not being too serious either, just shooting the bull.
I think the bike guys biggest fear should be the Snowmobile or Jetski engines.
If you put 2 wheels on that Kawasaki Jetski with 260HP stock, I wonder how fast it would go? It seats 3, so if you put a third wheel on it, could it run in Sidecar class?
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You might have noticed that Suzuki does not put the Busa engine in their cars. Seems logical that they would.
If I were tasked with putting an engine of that size into a car at Suzuki, I might start with the heads, pistons, rods, and crank, but nothing more.
The headache of no reverse and abusing a clutch and transmission not meant to propel the weight of a car isn't worth skipping making a new block.
BWDIK
I would think an Ecotech in a bike would only make sense if you were trying to run two motors in A class, but like most things in life there are trade offs with every decision. I'm still waiting to see two Hayabusa's in a bike though. :-o
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I'm still waiting to see two Hayabusa's in a bike though. :-o
You mean the Ack Attack streamliner?
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I'm still waiting to see two Hayabusa's in a bike though. :-o
You mean the Ack Attack streamliner?
no, I meant sit on bike. :-D
Although I am pretty impressed with the Ack Attack! :cheers:
It's one of those things somebody is bound to do it eventually.
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not sure why you would put 2 busa motors on a sit on.... most don't and can't use the power they are capable of solo.... unless you think about an old blown 1000.... now if a guy could get one of those to go fast..... :roll: .......
Willie, sometimes you have to sit back and see the humor..... relax, you will get it.... :-D
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Just so I understand correctly.
You can put a big block chevy, or a blown hemi or any other automotive engine in a two wheel streamliner with skids and it runs as a motorcycle?
It just ain't right....... :cry:
Buzz
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Just so I understand correctly.
You can put a big block chevy, or a blown hemi or any other automotive engine in a two wheel streamliner with skids and it runs as a motorcycle?
It just ain't right....... :cry:
Buzz
No, you can't. But you can put a blown Busa motor in a roadster.
And who needs two motors to go fast on a sit-on bike? Ask Joe Amo :)
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Your pretty fast too. :roll:
Fred
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......sockjon......do you really think two busa
motors will be any better than one..........?........
...most of those single busa motored bikes cant use
the hp they have now..........
(i guess stainless already covered that)....
.......also i guess you didnt see Mr. Bairsto's double 4 cylinder
suzuki motored sit on beast at SW...?......
there have been a few doubles........not sure if any of the
records still stand........
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not sure why you would put 2 busa motors on a sit on.... most don't and can't use the power they are capable of solo....
And who needs two motors to go fast on a sit-on bike? Ask Joe Amo :)
Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe nobody will ever do it, but it seems like it makes some sense in my head.
You certainly don't need two, and two blown fuel busas would be more power than anybody and any tire could probably handle, but the records are pretty much wide open in the unlimited displacement category.
From what I've read and from talking to people, two motors is all sorts of headaches and hassles, but I could see getting to 250+mph with two motors being easier than with one blown motor, and perhaps cheaper as well.
I don't know, just think it would be kind of cool to see. Maybe when I'm old and retired I'll rethink it again if nobody has done it yet.
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.......also i guess you didnt see Mr. Bairsto's double 4 cylinder
suzuki motored sit on beast at SW...?......
there have been a few doubles........not sure if any of the
records still stand........
No, did not get to attend. Do you happen to have any pics/links?
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Tom Elrod 3000 A/F 8/79 200.022 Two Kawi mtrs. Good old boy from Texas. :-D
Fred
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this is a great thread --- and no im not taking it to personal----i will try to explain something to everyone ---the motorcycle classes have 3 sections--the frame classes - P,M,A,MPS,APS,SC,SCS and S.The engine classes there are BF, BG,F,G,P,PB,PB,PBG,PF,PG,PP,PV,UF,UG,VBF,VBG,VF,VG, and omega. Then we have engine displacement classes. Shown in Cu. Centimeters 50,100,125,175,250,350,500,650,750,1000,1350,1650,2000,3000 and 3001 and above. In P and M and MPS you can only run one engine. In A,APS,S,SC and SCS you can run two engines. Now here is the tricky part... Even though in the rulebook it lists any record over 3001cc is listed as unlimited, thats a mistake. It should be listed as 3001cc and above, and not unlimited. The unlimited class is an engine class and there are two classes, UG and UF, Unlimited gas and unlimited fuel. In Unlimited gas and unlimited fuel there are no engine size classes. You can run any reciprocating engine that uses the otto cycle, In streamliner class only. Super charged engines do not advance class. So yes, in unlimited gas and unlimited fuel you can run two big block chevys, with or without a blower in the streamliner class or two allison aircraft engines. That's 7.J.12 in the rulebook. Also in 7.D.4. It says you can run unlimited fuel and gas in the streamliner class, the sidecar class and the sidecar streamline class-----.george calloway
has a couple of rolls royce merlins for sale---anyway its nice to be back in touch with you all again hope to see you all in person soon willie buchta
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If anyone want's to buy a paragraph I see Willie is fresh out so keep lQQking.. :-D
Welcome back everyone.
John
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Great explanation Willie, thanks.
Now if they would just open up a setup bike thrust class we could.......but that's another thread, isn't it?
Buzz
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...
OPPSS!! This is about motorcycles! Sorry! Uh...
The Marines use a Diesel Motorcycle. It's REALLY slow from what I gather. :-D
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I bet you could make one go really fast. You build it, I'll ride it. :-D
Fred
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I bet you could make one go really fast. You build it, I'll ride it. :-D
Fred
Nitrous and a big turbo on a Kaw KLR650 Diesel? :-D
Dunno if they have them for private sale. Stupid EPA regs for motorcycles probably keeps them out of retail sales.
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...
OPPSS!! This is about motorcycles! Sorry! Uh...
The Marines use a Diesel Motorcycle. It's REALLY slow from what I gather. :-D
The Diesel bikes from Hayes have run over 110 mph and on the dyno can get 130 mpg, on the road in testing they have gotten over 100 mpg. :cheers:
J
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I get about 10mpg. Two long course runs= 1 gal. mul-b= $10 :-D
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I remember my old Suzuki GS1000 (I had a Windjammer, bags, and trunk) would get 25 mpg. Later I got a Chevy Sprint (Suzuki 1000 triple engine) and it got 45-50mpg driving the same route. My 1000 Sportster did well, about 50mpg, as did my XT500/600's at 60mpg, but most my other bikes didn't do very well.
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My old BMW's got around 50mpg, my '86VFR 700 honda gets about 40mpg
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A little research shows the USMC diesel motorcycle gets 96mpg on JP-8 fuel, with a top sustained speed of 90mph.
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A little research shows the USMC diesel motorcycle gets 96mpg on JP-8 fuel, with a top sustained speed of 90mph.
A little inside knowledge from Fred himself has supplied me the numbers I posted and stand by.
I supply him the pistons for his bikes..he has other vehicles in the works as well :cheers:
John
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A little research shows the USMC diesel motorcycle gets 96mpg on JP-8 fuel, with a top sustained speed of 90mph.
A little inside knowledge from Fred himself has supplied me the numbers I posted and stand by.
I supply him the pistons for his bikes..he has other vehicles in the works as well :cheers:
John
DOH!!! I didn't tie the two together, thought you were talking about a different bike. Hayes in Hesperia, CA is the builder for the USMC. Sorry.
Data I found was from a test review.
110 is really impressive. None of my gas enduros would hit 100 stock, and not for lack of trying.
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McRat, the diesel Kawasaki of which you speak is raced at the Bub's event -- has been for about 5 years, I think. It
s a Kawi KLR 650 with the gasoline engine removed and a little diesel (single cylinder) put in the bike. Slow -- but if I remember correctly, still a 100-mph bike.
But -- it's not a "car" engine in a bike, nope, no sir!
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This has been an interesting thread.
We brought a twin engine Suzuki to Speed Week and made several shake down passes on the short course. I'd never even let the clutches out before I was on the starting line. Larry Forstall built the Double back in the early 90's, he got side tracked with some Hayabusa projects lol and the Double sat in his garage. I had it shipped up to Alberta and got it running. My best pass was 203mph at only 7000rpm, lots of wheel spin over 3/4 throttle. We were held back by some problems with the coupler for the 2 engines. I've since had the coupler modified and hope to run it again this year. I've been working in Oman since Speed Week and I need another speed fix, I'll likely attend El Mirage in November.
It may not be the fastest bike on the salt but I think its cool as hell and it has lots of potential. The spectators love the noise.
Scott
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That is wicked cool Scott, good luck with it. :cheers:
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we were pitted next to Scott at speedweek, this bike does indeed sound sweet. Once the bugs are worked out
I think this bike will set its share of records. :cheers:
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Just got official confirmation from the FIM that they are not interested in whether or not my Hyabusa V8 is a "motorcycle" engine or not... quote, "it has been done before". It is within the 3000cc category, full stop. Gabriel.
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:cheers:
Mike
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Good news Gabriel, now it's full tilt boogie, see ya on the salt !!
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We will be there larry...Speed Week then BUB for the REAL speed test!
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Good news Gabriel, all you have to do now is build the thing and go fast........easy really? :-D
As for our effort, we will also be campaining the V8, but as a sit on in the first instance, just to get some experience.
See you on the Salt,
Steve Burns. 8-)
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I am under no illusions Steve, as you well know! Your name was mentioned at the Pod this weekend.....nothing bad so you are ok! It was the 10th anniversary of the Hyabusa, and we were with the Radical/Powertec stand. Lots of interest, with plenty of FAST bikes on show. Had long talk with Jack Frost. Regards, Gabriel.
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Bit off topic but thanks for the invite to the seminar/discussion very impressive i have no doubt you will get there and open up a big can of whoop ass GO ANGELIC BULLDOG GO!!
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The NSU engine as used in the Meunch Mammoth, if it's in a different frame, is it still a motorcycle engine? Just sweeping up bits and pieces in the garage for next year . . . .
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The NSU as used in the Munch Mammoth is a car engine. Regardless of what frame you put it in its still a car engine. Which begs the question. If you put a car engine in a bike frame amd leave it there long enough does it become a bike engine?