Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Randall Parker on May 12, 2008, 01:51:48 AM
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I am just confused. My Certificate says "World Land Speed Record". Bub says FIM is World Land Speed records. AMA is National Records? So SCTA does not count in the United States? Just don't get it and I am sure it is some political thing.
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i have a speed record at el mirage there is no place in the galaxie that you can break my record but at el mirage with a bike like mine with the same size motor so i would say that el mirage records are a galactical speed record although everyone wont agree with me especially b.b. willie buchta
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Randall, Congrats on your world landspeed record. 8-)
Do you ever watch boxing? At any time, there are at least 6 heavy weight champions of the world, depends on which boxing organization you are signed up to and who you pay fees to for the fight. Racing is the same way
If you want to unite the record, race them all and become the undisputed record holder. Of course, that will probably cause you to travel to Australia, Maxton, Texas, Nevada, Bonneville (several times, scta, Bub) and California. There may be others in the future, Maine comes to mind.... :roll:
So it is all about who gets the money to certify your record. There is no venue to become the undisputed world record holder.
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"So SCTA does not count in the United States?"
SCTA records count ONLY in the USA.
DW
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i have a speed record at el mirage there is no place in the galaxy that you can break my record but at el mirage ..................... willie buchta
Hey I'll have to find a book on parallel universes for you. Right now someone is probably after your El Mirage record out there somewhere 8-) :roll:,
Sum
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sumner gets it willie buchta
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Here's my sort-of different take on the phrase "world record": There are, as stated above and we all know it anyway, a few organizations that certify speeds attempts and reward the fast ones with a "record". Let's assume that you have one (or more) of those records in your class, and so now you've got a record that at least has been certified, no matter which group certified it.
Stipulate, for the sake of this discussion, that the FIM record speed in your class is 165 mph, the SCTA record speed in your class is 170, the ECTA record speed in the class is 175, the El Mirage record speed is 168, the Muroc record speed is 160, the DLRA record speed is 171, and so on if I've missed any sanctioning group. Each of those speeds is a record, right?
Which is REALLY the world record? If you ask me -- the fastest speed is the fastest record, and therefore really is the world record speed. Sure you can attribute faster/slower speeds to track, conditions, day of the week, phase of the moon -- but if you've run the fastest number you can defensibly claim to have the fastest record in the world, and therefore the world record. Ergo, the ECTA record is the world record in my example.
Okay, folks, now it's your turn.
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let me state my case again---if i have a record at el mirage it cant be broken any where in the universe except at el mirage by a bike like mine with the same type and size motor --i rest my case willie buchta
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I agree with Jon (W) sorta of. Most of this only applies to bikes with their superior acceleration. The fastest is the fastest BUT because the record requirements at the standing mile (+) venues only require one run with no backup a vehicle can get lucky; tailwind, perfect run then the vehicle breaks, etc. You could say that about the Yancy/Shierts record except they have many reasonably close records. Then you will have the idiots who say the Flying Dutchman is the fastest O/W bike because he has a timeslip of 265 neglecting to mention he had a 40 mph tailwind and could not get the bike to run well enough on the return to even average 250. But he went 265(For eighty feet !!!) OK. Mark DeLuca is going to try and break his Bonneville N/A record at Maxton this weekend. Totally different bike, much lighter to accelerate, more HP because of less altitude, but no aero and a limited distance. Should be interesting. I think in the end one picks their venue, does their best and the LSR community will reward the fastest with a handshake. That's why we do this, isn't it?
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I think the crux of the topic is the word, "world". The established norm is to make a run in both directions within a certain time to negate any advantage such as wind, slope etc. In my humble opinion all other records are "national".
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I agree with Jon (W) sorta of. ....... Should be interesting. I think in the end one picks their venue, does their best and the LSR community will reward the fastest with a handshake. That's why we do this, isn't it?
I originally got in it for the money..... :roll: OK, maybe not. Again, everybody's rules can be different, so what you get is what you want it to be. A World Land Speed Record. In that venue, no one has gone faster. The Salt is considered to be the ultimate venue, why, because that is where a lot of folks go, there is a lot more room than in the Mile events. The FIA, the FIM, the AMA, they are just sanctioning bodies. Do they matter to me, no, why, because 2/3s are Frogs and the other abandoned LSR years ago, only to come back when it suited a promoter. Would I go to an event to see a bike go 350+ or a car go 500? you bet I would.
Right now the fastest guy on a motorcycle is Sam Wheeler, the record holder is Chris Carr, the guy before him was Rocky Robinson.....the guy I am rooting for this year is a Bad Man running English Vintage Iron. What matters is who goes the fastest. That is why we do this, to be the fastest...
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If you don't want the Certificate which the SCTA/BNI sends out after setting a speed record at Bonneville at either Speed Week or World Finals, please state here after either of the 2 meets so Glen's, Ed's or my time by making it for you and sending it out. You could also hand write in on your entry. (No certificate please)
Ask yourself the question..."what the the World Series of Baseball" have to do with the world.
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In my opinion... it all boils down to the wind. Wind affects most sports.... golf, tennis, sailing, football, baseball and most importantly Lands Speed Racing. In my airplane, with a constant power setting, I have achieved a ground speed (per two GPS's) of 80 knots and 240 knots and these are basically at the same altitude of 12,000 feet. Of all the racing venues in the World I only know of the FIM/AMA venues put on by BUB that take wind into account and these venues are for motorcyles only. Return runs must be with 2 hours for FIM and 4 hours for AMA. And then the two speeds must be averaged out for a final record speed. The problem I see with Maxton and the Texas mile is that the landing strips were built into the prevailing winds so they the US military could land their WWII planes... into the pervailing winds for the least landing speeds. Many of the speed runs at these two venues are made with the wind and no return runs are made due to logistics.
In my opinion, each venue must have it's own records because different atmospheric, physical conditions and rules apply. One must compare "apples with apples". One can't compare a speed at Maxton with one at Bonneville. In regard to World Records one must have two runs in opposite directions in a short amount of time to take wind into account. Any venue in the World can have World record capabilities but at this time the FIM/AMA trials at BUB are the only racing venues to take wind into account. Therefore I feel the FIM records are the only truly World Records for motorcycles. As for what is a World record with a car... well I leave that up to you cars guys to decide--
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Hi Stainless,
Just a minor point here. Richard Brown ran 365mph in his Gillette 3 rocket bike back at BUB in 1999, so in theory he is the fastest bike, or should that be two-wheeler? Craig Breedlove had a similar problem with his thrust car, but fastest is fastest? I think that SCTA is superb, and am proud to have made the trip over there three times. They have a fantastic location, and a superb organisation which run the best speed meetings in the world, bar non. Twice I have qualified for one of their records, but both times been unable to back it up. The fact that it would be an SCTA record and not a world record would not matter, it would be on my wall in pride of place, as is my Bonneville trophy from 2003! Flyboy makes good sense with what he says....
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IMO, the same vehicle running on different length tracks can hold multiple records in class. Can't compare the records to each other, the same but different.
Now, if the mile venues would work together with the same record database, fair but equal tech and verifiable impound certification you would really have something. A unified record set and the confidenice that a person could travel to different tracks without the fear of not being legal in class.
DW
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A "World" record surely cannot be tied to a single place on this planet (or its brother in a parallel universe). The world is not just one continent or one country. If I can break a record set in the USA when in Australia or challenge one set in England and then I break it South Adfrica, then that may be a "World" record.
The rules for attaining a world record should be available to everyone to follow, anywhere they select. How many sanctioning bodies offer true coverage of the "World" we live in? Perhaps DW is heading in the right direction and we need a consortium of sanctioning bodies who follow common standrds - an International or World Federation perhaps?
Whilst there may be many timed distances these should be sufficiently long enough to eliminate instantaneous speed recording, but not too long to make it an endurance record. Is the kilometre or mile the right length of timing trap?
Two way runs can eliminate any wind assistance, but the time interval should be such that there is insufficient time for the wind to change direction. Two hours seems about right. Of course the alternative is to have a maximum tail wind speed written into the rules of the sanctioning body as well. Which sanctioning body has that rule?
Does this near annual 'explanation' make any difference to our sport? Probably not.
Malcolm in the UK
ps - The FIM is an organisation of many countires, but it is based in Switzerland (not France).
pps - anyone form the car side want to start another thread on which body sanctions "World" records for four or more wheels?
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In my opinion... it all boils down to the wind. Wind affects most sports.... golf, tennis, sailing, football, baseball and most importantly Lands Speed Racing. In my airplane, with a constant power setting, I have achieved a ground speed (per two GPS's) of 80 knots and 240 knots and these are basically at the same altitude of 12,000 feet. Of all the racing venues in the World I only know of the FIM/AMA venues put on by BUB that take wind into account and these venues are for motorcyles only. Return runs must be with 2 hours for FIM and 4 hours for AMA. And then the two speeds must be averaged out for a final record speed. The problem I see with Maxton and the Texas mile is that the landing strips were built into the prevailing winds so they the US military could land their WWII planes... into the pervailing winds for the least landing speeds. Many of the speed runs at these two venues are made with the wind and no return runs are made due to logistics.
In my opinion, each venue must have it's own records because different atmospheric, physical conditions and rules apply. One must compare "apples with apples". One can't compare a speed at Maxton with one at Bonneville. In regard to World Records one must have two runs in opposite directions in a short amount of time to take wind into account. Any venue in the World can have World record capabilities but at this time the FIM/AMA trials at BUB are the only racing venues to take wind into account. Therefore I feel the FIM records are the only truly World Records for motorcycles. As for what is a World record with a car... well I leave that up to you cars guys to decide--
One thing you have failed to mention thought is that the bikes only have a 5 mile course at Speed Week and a 6 mile at BUB and a number of bike records were set and are still standing that did run the 5 mile course at Speed Week in both directions. No longer possible due to safety and other considerations, but two way runs were still run just a few years ago. Also at Speed Week if you run under 175 you are limited to the short course (3 miles) and I don't think that is the case at BUB. I'm not trying to take anything away from BUB AMA/FIM records, but let's also not take anything away from the records set at Speed Week. I think your example of wind speeds in your airplane doesn't hold much water in regards to racing on the salt due to the fact that the course is shut down over a certain air speed, which would be way lower than what you would fly in to achive those speed differences. Still at times it can be an advantage and I'm sure it has also been an advantage when running both ways when one run was in still air and the other might have been with a tail wind.
c ya,
Sum
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There are only two international sanctioning bodies, FIM for motorcycles and FIA for automobiles. If a record is set under their rules, with conditions verified by their representatives, then it is an international (or world) record. Records set under the sanction of any other organizations are not "world" records, even though the speeds recorded may be higher than the official "world" record speeds. Incidentally, the FIA classification system is different from the SCTA-BNI system. Don't know about FIM.
The BUB meet is apparently run under FIM sanction, so all you bikers can set "world" records, if your machines are up to it.
Any person or group (share the cost) can obtain a permit from the BLM for a private meet on the salt. That meet can be organized to meet all the requirements for FIA sanction and any records set would be "world" records. It's a little pricey, but there you are.
Regards, Frank
(I know how fast you were going)
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Frank, you get it! BUB offers both national records (AMA Sanction) and FIM. Special paper work is required for FIM records, FIM license, different fees etc. The course is set up a little different as well. A measured mile, for AMA National Records, and a measured kilo, for FIM International Records, are surveyed and certified onto the salt on one course. If two courses are run there will be a surveyed measured mile only on the second course. I think that some folks understandably confuse fastest speed with record speed, there is a big difference
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:-D Speed Week, World of Speed and World Finals. Three chances to set a world record for the "Flying Mile". If you want a World Record for the "Flying Kilometer" you go to Bub and enter the FIM sanctioned class. I am getting it.
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Don't forget Lake Gairdner in Australia. Also FIM sanction so world records can be obtained if you care to cross the pond. Great group of fellows, great salt, and of course, Coopers beer...
I hear many are planning a trip stateside for a romp at Bonneville in 2009. Should be a lot of fun.
Rocky R
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BZZZT! Sorry, Randal, that is not the correct answer. Speed Week and World Finals (BNI events) and World of Speed (a USAFRA event) are not FIA or FIM sanctioned and are not run according to FIA or FIM procedures. The flying mile speeds are BNI/USAFRA speeds and any records are not recognized as international.
Don't know about FIM, but FIA maintains records for both the flying mile and the flying kilometer.
Regards, Frank
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Fastest thing on 4 wheels should be easy... anyone else break the sound barrier lately with certified clocks??
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Fastest thing on 4 wheels should be easy... anyone else break the sound barrier lately with certified clocks??
The sonic boom was almost a little more revealing than the clocks, although it does have a tendency to move around a little. The next group won't get the pleasure of instant gratification, they will need to read the clocks to know if the goal was made.
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I may be wrong usually am on history things.. but if I remeber correctly and do correct me if i am wrong.. didn't they change the day of the record attempt to fall on the same date that Yeager broke the sound barrier???
Dave
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Frank
BNI international records were run at BNI world finals in 1999,2001,2002 & 2004, These were certified by FIA at these events, All runs were two way Kilo and flying mile. Alan & James Rice and I timed them. They are in the rule book page 133.
The meets after that were private time set up by Cook Motor sports.
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Certificates and $1.00 can buy you a cup of coffee at a convenience store but the real value is in the personal satifaction and the knowledge that you were part of the effort and the accomplishment. Whatever venue or whatever rules it was under, it was unique and a first. Be proud and happy.
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Fastest is fastest.
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Having worked in the timing stand / trailer for 24 years at Bonneville, El Mirage and Muroc and one gets a record in that venue it is a record and everyone I know is proud to achieved it. I have signed many record certs. and never had one deny one or return one saying they didn't want it because the French didn't certify it as a world record. You will find most of the racers don't give a damn about FIA records. Ask any of them.
At a normal Bonneville we cannot run the FIA cars due to the large number of entries. The meet would require shutting down and moving the vehicles away from the down course starting area, all of the spectators and anything else that would be in the way. The other problem is the one hour turn around that keeps the course on hold and no one can run. If there were an incident that interupted the return runs they would have to qualify again and start the one hour turn around again.
In the past the FIA runs wer run at the World Finals or special meets and are very expensive for the racers.
The other thing is all are volunteers except for a few officials that put on the meet. As they are private there are no spectators to help support the event with sales etc. the weather is always a factor and other people have the salt reserved for their event.
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............You will find most of the racers don't give a damn about FIA records. Ask any of them....................
Amen..............and I'd welcome any FIA B/BGCC car/crew to come to Speed Week, WOS, World Finals, DLRA meet or for that matter at an "official" FIA meet and better our record "in the mile". I'd be glad to congratulate them on their deed and would then consider that they now hold the B/BGCC "world" record.
c ya,
Sum
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If one were to handle it right a FIM motorcycle "World Record"
can and will get you future sponsorship
help.............the rest gets you a hand shake and a piece of paper............Hey, racing is expensive...Right...........................................................
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Sometimes fast is not that good. Watch the video and see for yourself. Warning...rated R
Sheri Buchta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaZksyi-Z8E
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If one were to handle it right a FIM motorcycle "World Record"
can and will get you future sponsorship
help.............the rest gets you a hand shake and a piece of paper............Hey, racing is expensive...Right...........................................................
I have an SCTA speedweek record and an ECTA record. I also got a handshake and a check from my new sponsor!
Is that "check" the piece of paper you're talking about?
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Don't forget, Glen, I was up there with you from 2001 on. There was also the option of the BNI-International course. Exactly the same as FIA but without the official stamp. But I was talking about now, and as you point out, it is not practical now, with the large number of entrants at WF.
As for the "the fastest is the fastest", I was using the international (or world) designation in the official, bureaucratic sense, not implying that it is in some way superior. A BNI record, in my mind, is in no way a lesser accomplishment. We all cheer when a record falls to be replaced by a larger number and it happens over and over at every meet. Can't get any better than that.
Regards, Frank
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Sheri:
That's funny!
Pete
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Hi guys, This is the way I see this.
You can be your countries national land speed record holder. (SCTA, AMA, ECTA)
You can be the international land speed record holder. (FIM)
If your countries national record is faster than the international record, and is faster than any other countries national record, only then can you lay claim to the world land speed record.
In my class, the FIM record is 8mph faster than the British record. The American record is a further 7mph away.
If I was to break the FIM record, I wouldn't consider myself the world land speed record holder for my class if I didn't better the American figure.
World record holder yes, world land speed record holder no.
Just my take on it, thanks for reading :wink:
Sam.
P.S. nice forum. 8-)
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Sam seems to be a pretty smart feller... 8-) 8-)
Most of us see it that way. FIA and FIM don't have classes for everything that runs a Bonneville, so a World Land Speed Record is easily attained.... :| Did I say easily... :-o Maybe it should be an easy call after you set one...
Sam Welcome to LSR, sounds like you have a firm grasp of the situation
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Response to Dave Dahlgren
Having been at dinner last weekend with Andy Green and Richard Noble (alomg with 56 other record holders or enthusiasts) I can confirm that the Thruist SSC team consider they made two too many runs during the '97 campaign.
The record fell on October 15th, but both owner and driver would have preferred it if they had achieved the record on the 13th (a day when chute failure caused the over run in distance and more than 60 minutes elapsed between runs) when two supersonic runs had been achieved.
The SSC team did not contrive to get their record to coincide with the first in flight supersonic speed.
Malcolm
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Whilst the bike world seems to be getting an "International" act together with the AMA/BUB and to some extent SCTA through their classes. You still have to convince me Sam that the method of operation gives parity between sanctioning bodies. [For national records in the UK racers should remember we only have two mile runways such as Woodbridge and Elvington].
With the four wheeled world I cannot see the FIA ever running separate body classifications for such vehicles as Comp Coupe or Roadster. Even getting the capacity classes for internal combustion engines the same, seems to be a distant hope. And as with the 'bikes the operating conditions remain to be dealt with - and whilst Speedweek, World of Speed and World Finals remain so popular there is little chance of the USA reverting to two way runs, except for the very few. Hence there are 'more' private events by UK and US racers under FIA on the salt each year.
Malcolm
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i looked up the FIM record for 1000cc sidecar for the mile with a standing start it is 133.980 km/h so i converted my gas run from last saturday of 132.280 to kilometers its 212.970 km/h -hmmmmmmmm i like this kilometer thing 212 it didnt really feel that fast willie buchta
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Whilst the bike world seems to be getting an "International" act together with the AMA/BUB and to some extent SCTA through their classes. You still have to convince me Sam that the method of operation gives parity between sanctioning bodies. [For national records in the UK racers should remember we only have two mile runways such as Woodbridge and Elvington].
With the four wheeled world I cannot see the FIA ever running separate body classifications for such vehicles as Comp Coupe or Roadster. Even getting the capacity classes for internal combustion engines the same, seems to be a distant hope. And as with the 'bikes the operating conditions remain to be dealt with - and whilst Speedweek, World of Speed and World Finals remain so popular there is little chance of the USA reverting to two way runs, except for the very few. Hence there are 'more' private events by UK and US racers under FIA on the salt each year.
Malcolm
Hi Malcolm, I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say there, are you saying that the diferent organizations that run speed events in the States and claiming National record status, are not all timed in the same way as FIM sanctioned events?
Sam.
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You will find most of the racers don't give a damn about FIA records. Ask any of them.
Unfortunately, I can't ask Nolan White.
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If your world encompasses all venues, than a record must be sanctioned by the world body to be a world record. If your record is at El Mirage and that is your world, than that should be your world record. The only way to have a world record is to run in a vaccumm
Louie
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i looked up the FIM record for 1000cc sidecar for the mile with a standing start it is 133.980 km/h so i converted my gas run from last saturday of 132.280 to kilometers its 212.970 km/h -hmmmmmmmm i like this kilometer thing 212 it didnt really feel that fast willie buchta
Willie, welcome to the 200 KPH Club .... now ya gotta try to get in the 3 chapter... :roll:
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Sam seems to be a pretty smart feller... 8-) 8-)
Most of us see it that way. FIA and FIM don't have classes for everything that runs a Bonneville, so a World Land Speed Record is easily attained.... :| Did I say easily... :-o Maybe it should be an easy call after you set one...
Sam Welcome to LSR, sounds like you have a firm grasp of the situation
Thanks for the kind words Stainless, Willie is over the moon with his new world sidecar record, an improvement of 78.990km/h :-o :-o :-o I wonder which rotten person will spoil his new found fame and tell him that the 133.980km/h is only the average speed :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D I can be rotten at times :evil: :evil: :evil: sorry Willie
Sam. :-D
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sam what the hell are you talking about you need to go back and read my last post and look closely 132.280 mph =212.970 km/h MPH and KM/H get it williebuchta
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sam what the hell are you talking about you need to go back and read my last post and look closely 132.280 mph =212.970 km/h MPH and KM/H get it williebuchta
Willie, if you averaged 132.280mph over a standing start mile, your termial speed would probably be well over 200mph. :-o :-o :-o
If you did, fantastic, my mistake :oops: :oops: :oops: Where did you do it and was it a two way run ?
Sam. :-)
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sam thats what i dont like about the computer we cant hear the tone in each others voice so sometimes we cant tell if someone is joking or just being stupid--i looked up the fim record it said standing start -i converted it to km/h well you know the rest and it was supposed to be humor some laughed some took it serious ---if i ever find out what the fim rules are i will try it again and be accurate --most of the time accuratcy isnt required in humor thanks willie buchta
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Sam
Just so I do not offend the people timing events at Maxton, El Mirage or Bonneville (USFRA and SCTA) [some of whom I count as friends either through this website or in person] it is not a matter of the difference or otherwise of timing methods as such. Indeed some of the US equipment is state of the art and I believe that all can measure a mile or kilometre or 132 feet timing trap length to a level of accuracy that equals or surpasses the FIA/FIM rules.
The difference in not comparing 'apples with apples' that arises because of the style of USA based Land Speed Racing events for very large numbers of participants (and I am thinking four wheeled vehicles here).
If you have a copy of each of the sanctioning bodies rules books in front of you, you will easily see how they differ from the FIA Appendix D. The runs are one direction and 'servicing' is allowed before the back up run the following morning. Some (but very few) cars do run for BNI INternational records which mirror the FIA methods (although I have not been able to be present on the salt to see these for myself).
I loved the kph & mph reasoning of Willie - I too am in a metric "2 Club" at 213!
Malcolm
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I know I made comments on this subject yesterday. What happened to them?
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Randall, Congrats on your world landspeed record. 8-)
Do you ever watch boxing? At any time, there are at least 6 heavy weight champions of the world, depends on which boxing organization you are signed up to and who you pay fees to for the fight. Racing is the same way
If you want to unite the record, race them all and become the undisputed record holder. Of course, that will probably cause you to travel to Australia, Maxton, Texas, Nevada, Bonneville (several times, scta, Bub) and California. There may be others in the future, Maine comes to mind.... :roll:
So it is all about who gets the money to certify your record. There is no venue to become the undisputed world record holder.
Andy Green is the undisputed holder of the World Land Speed Record.
As far as wheel driven is concerned, unless you're the driver of the world's fastest supercharged car, world's fastest unsupercharged car, world's fastest turbine car, or the rider of the world's fastest bike liner or world's fastest open bike, then you're a holder of a class or international record not a world record.
The only drivers who hold official world records for piston engine wheel driven cars are Al Teague and Bob Summers, since respectively they hold the FIA records for supercharged and unsupercharged cars. However, since Tom Burkland has set an SCTA record for supercharged cars that is faster than Al Teague's FIA record, I think an argument can be made that is the true world record for supercharged cars.
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What about the world's fastest Blue Front Wheel Drive Car? How do we set up the parameters here? There-in lies the rub!
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Interesting read from all. In May, I captured the APS/F 1650-4, 2000-4, 3000-4 and 3000+ using a Nitrous Oxide powered bike from a standing start to 1 mile. My fastest speed is 228.803mph on nitrous. Now, since no one else in the world has gone faster than that at any venue in any universe, dimension, parrallel planet or not, and the ECTA is a sanctioning body with t-shirts and everything, does that make me the "Worlds Fastest Nitrous Motorcycle"? Maybe yes, maybe no. But I'll say maybe yes. that's my story and I'm stickin toit.
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Guy, you've hit upon my thesis -- a speed that is faster than any other comparable vehicle has gone is the fastest in the world and can therefore be considered a world record. Whether the record is sanctioned by any particular organization or not is beside the point (as long as the speed is measured by a certifiable method) - if you've gone faster than anyone else in the world has gone, how could you not have a world record? Any adjective added to the description of world's fastest just dilutes the statement (i.e. world's fastest under the FIM/SCTA/DLRA/CHP/PTA rules), but the speed doesn't change.
Congratulations on the record 228++, and thanks for leaving the goal intact for when (if ever, darn it) I get back on the track with my nitrous bike. Someplace I've got a photo of the control panel of your bike, and I'll try to find and post it here.
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Here's the only photo I've got of Guy Caputo's bike:
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Maxton%20May%202008/100_1021.jpg)
Sure is busy - watching all of that hardware and the track... Notice, if you will, the custom chin rest on the front of the tank. High tech, hey?
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I am all in favour of this newish form of land speed racing that has sprung up at Maxton, Texas, Woodbridge and Elvington.
It gives newcomers to the world of land speed racing a good insight into the sport proper.
What I don't undertand is, how can people can claim a record for the standing mile when there is no direct comparison between the way these events are timed.
The speeds that we clock in these events are terminal speeds at the end of a standing start mile.
If you try to compare our speeds with the equivalent FIM AMA or ACU standing start mile speeds, they are way out due to the fact that their's are mean average speeds converted from the mean average time it takes to cover a standing start mile in both directions.
To give you an example, the British record for the standing start mile, for the class I ride in is 97.29mph, (OK I only ride a small bike :-D :-D :-D)
At the last event I competed in a few weeks back I recorded 118.3mph at the end of a mile into a 17mph head wind.
It does'nt make me the new British record holder, now dose it. :-D :-D :-D :-D
Sam. :wink:
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sam willie here --got your message--you sir are a gentleman--lets try this again--at bonneville the starting line is mile 0 --you run to the mile1 marker -you are timed from mile 1 marker to mile 2 marker and from mile 2 marker to mile 3 marker --at mile 3 run is over ( if you can run 175 mph in the first 1/4 of the first timed mile then you can run on the long course)--at el mirage the course is 1 and 1/3 miles long you are timed in the last few feet ( i think 132 ft ) and maxton is 1 mile with the timing in the last 132 feet i think --any way its all a standing start with the timing done at the end of the track and i think most land speed racing is done that way otherwise it would like drag racing with an elapsed time then you could do the math and figure out an average time but that wouldnt be top speed--- what kind of a bike do you run willie buchta
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Hi Willie, I'm just finishing my night shift at work so not got time for a biiigggggg reply :-D :-D :-D :-D
I'll try to explain myself better this evening when I have more Time.
I run a little Honda two stroke, only done one top speed event on it and was hampered real bad by a strong head wind. It's still in the development stages, the next step being Nitrous and I have not got a clue about the stuff. I have got a few top guys to point me in the right direction though.
Thanks for the acceptance and kind words Willie.
Sam. :wink:
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Guy, you've hit upon my thesis -- a speed that is faster than any other comparable vehicle has gone is the fastest in the world and can therefore be considered a world record. Whether the record is sanctioned by any particular organization or not is beside the point (as long as the speed is measured by a certifiable method) - if you've gone faster than anyone else in the world has gone, how could you not have a world record? Any adjective added to the description of world's fastest just dilutes the statement (i.e. world's fastest under the FIM/SCTA/DLRA/CHP/PTA rules), but the speed doesn't change.
Congratulations on the record 228++, and thanks for leaving the goal intact for when (if ever, darn it) I get back on the track with my nitrous bike. Someplace I've got a photo of the control panel of your bike, and I'll try to find and post it here.
Like they said in Highlander, "There can be only one."
I think if you're the driver of the world's fastest car or the rider of the world's fastest bike, then you're on the most solid ground for saying you hold a world record.
I think it's when you have to start putting more adjectives after "world's fastest" that claims of a world record become more open to debate.
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Guy, you've hit upon my thesis -- a speed that is faster than any other comparable vehicle has gone is the fastest in the world and can therefore be considered a world record. Whether the record is sanctioned by any particular organization or not is beside the point (as long as the speed is measured by a certifiable method) - if you've gone faster than anyone else in the world has gone, how could you not have a world record? Any adjective added to the description of world's fastest just dilutes the statement (i.e. world's fastest under the FIM/SCTA/DLRA/CHP/PTA rules), but the speed doesn't change.
Congratulations on the record 228++, and thanks for leaving the goal intact for when (if ever, darn it) I get back on the track with my nitrous bike. Someplace I've got a photo of the control panel of your bike, and I'll try to find and post it here.
I believe the fundamental measure for the validity of a record is whether it is a true measure of technical progress.
For example, a short trap at the end of a mile measures whether a bike can sustain for a short period of time the horsepower needed to run whatever speeds are clocked.
Running the same speeds at Bonneville tells you whether an engine has the durability to clock those speeds over longer distances, so in that sense Bonneville and Texas/Maxton mile records are not the same fundamental measure of progress.
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Guy, you've hit upon my thesis -- a speed that is faster than any other comparable vehicle has gone is the fastest in the world and can therefore be considered a world record. Whether the record is sanctioned by any particular organization or not is beside the point (as long as the speed is measured by a certifiable method) - if you've gone faster than anyone else in the world has gone, how could you not have a world record? Any adjective added to the description of world's fastest just dilutes the statement (i.e. world's fastest under the FIM/SCTA/DLRA/CHP/PTA rules), but the speed doesn't change.
Congratulations on the record 228++, and thanks for leaving the goal intact for when (if ever, darn it) I get back on the track with my nitrous bike. Someplace I've got a photo of the control panel of your bike, and I'll try to find and post it here.
I believe the fundamental measure for the validity of a record is whether it is a true measure of technical progress.
For example, a short trap at the end of a mile measures whether a bike can sustain for a short period of time the horsepower needed to run whatever speeds are clocked.
Running the same speeds at Bonneville tells you whether an engine has the durability to clock those speeds over longer distances, so in that sense Bonneville and Texas/Maxton mile records are not the same fundamental measure of progress.
An excellent argument indeed. Long or short? Sustained High output for short time on a 1 mile high traction surface (cement runway) or go the long distance on a controlled wheel spin surface (salt-dirt) thought of as a durability venue. This definitely is a great topic for discussion but holds zero value for anyone other than us who care to continue the topic. Since there is no one person who can say definitively what a "World Land Speed Record" is, how it should be measured or where is should be run, we come to an impasse.
Until someone goes faster than me at any venue on any surface in my category, I shall continue to state the obvious. Adding adjectives to the statement matters not to me. Fastest speed is fastest speed, everything else is subjective to opinions which are just that. But they do make for good reading.
Guy
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Guy, you've hit upon my thesis -- a speed that is faster than any other comparable vehicle has gone is the fastest in the world and can therefore be considered a world record. Whether the record is sanctioned by any particular organization or not is beside the point (as long as the speed is measured by a certifiable method) - if you've gone faster than anyone else in the world has gone, how could you not have a world record? Any adjective added to the description of world's fastest just dilutes the statement (i.e. world's fastest under the FIM/SCTA/DLRA/CHP/PTA rules), but the speed doesn't change.
Congratulations on the record 228++, and thanks for leaving the goal intact for when (if ever, darn it) I get back on the track with my nitrous bike. Someplace I've got a photo of the control panel of your bike, and I'll try to find and post it here.
I believe the fundamental measure for the validity of a record is whether it is a true measure of technical progress.
For example, a short trap at the end of a mile measures whether a bike can sustain for a short period of time the horsepower needed to run whatever speeds are clocked.
Running the same speeds at Bonneville tells you whether an engine has the durability to clock those speeds over longer distances, so in that sense Bonneville and Texas/Maxton mile records are not the same fundamental measure of progress.
An excellent argument indeed. Long or short? Sustained High output for short time on a 1 mile high traction surface (cement runway) or go the long distance on a controlled wheel spin surface (salt-dirt) thought of as a durability venue. This definitely is a great topic for discussion but holds zero value for anyone other than us who care to continue the topic. Since there is no one person who can say definitively what a "World Land Speed Record" is, how it should be measured or where is should be run, we come to an impasse.
Until someone goes faster than me at any venue on any surface in my category, I shall continue to state the obvious. Adding adjectives to the statement matters not to me. Fastest speed is fastest speed, everything else is subjective to opinions which are just that. But they do make for good reading.
Guy
Outside of whether the clocks are accurate, a lot of it is a matter of opinion.
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I think that records have to be certified by an independent sanctioning body that plays fair: i.e. holds everyone to the same rules. The current LSR sanctioning bodies do that pretty well. I am a <little> uncomfortable with the fact that there are "world records" that can be run with the wind. Yes the FIA is a little byzantine, but they do have the gold standard with the two-way-mile-in-an-hour. If we didn't have this, we'd have to admit the Bud rocket broke Mach 1 without making any visible or audible shock. :roll:
JMHO, ThrustSSC did it first. Now, we need to go above the transonic (M.6 to M1.2) and go fully supersonic. We'll see if we can knock and course markers down...
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I think that records have to be certified by an independent sanctioning body that plays fair: i.e. holds everyone to the same rules. The current LSR sanctioning bodies do that pretty well. I am a <little> uncomfortable with the fact that there are "world records" that can be run with the wind. Yes the FIA is a little byzantine, but they do have the gold standard with the two-way-mile-in-an-hour. If we didn't have this, we'd have to admit the Bud rocket broke Mach 1 without making any visible or audible shock. :roll:
JMHO, ThrustSSC did it first. Now, we need to go above the transonic (M.6 to M1.2) and go fully supersonic. We'll see if we can knock and course markers down...
Best speed by the Budweiser car through an electric eye timing trap was 692 mph, clocked on the next to last run.
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Regarding Budweiser Rocket
Whose clocks, were they certified for accuracy, who measured the timing distance (perhaps they paced it out?).
Can we see any independent mathematics of speed calculation regarding 692 mph?
Malcolm UK
PS
Keith, Slim, Doug and Company, on patrol in this forum - how long a ban do I get if I ridicule both Waldo and Franklin in one e mail regarding the introduction page ? :-D
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Regarding Budweiser Rocket
Whose clocks, were they certified for accuracy, who measured the timing distance (perhaps they paced it out?).
Can we see any independent mathematics of speed calculation regarding 692 mph?
Malcolm UK
PS
Keith, Slim, Doug and Company, on patrol in this forum - how long a ban do I get if I ridicule both Waldo and Franklin in one e mail regarding the introduction page ? :-D
Earl Flanders did the timing. Don't have any reason to believe he didn't know how to set up clocks.
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Oh Boy I love this stuff. Welcome back Franklin, now play nice !! The Thrust SST is the first and only car to go supersonic as the Bud's best was 692 .(It missed the traps on the final run and the team got the Air Force to use land radar to "calculate" that it broke the sound barrier. lol ). If his balloon hadn't escaped the Frenchman might have exceeded 1000 mph in freefall. An extreme example of air friction (or lack of). So the summary is: N/A needs cool temps. and low altitude. Forced induction needs higher altitude and modest temps. Based on speed both cars and the fastest bikes need distance. GPS and radar don't count. If it is a record for the venue then it is the Fastest. I am just one Mega Lotto ticket from my 15 mile indoor LSR track with controlled environment, computer calculated runoff cushioning, and high traction paving. Night racing, no problem, I will use Musco lighting. I will put it in the geographic center of the US and send free tranport for overseas racers. Now excuse me, I have to go buy a ticket. :-D
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Regarding Budweiser Rocket
Whose clocks, were they certified for accuracy, who measured the timing distance (perhaps they paced it out?).
Can we see any independent mathematics of speed calculation regarding 692 mph?
Malcolm UK
PS
Keith, Slim, Doug and Company, on patrol in this forum - how long a ban do I get if I ridicule both Waldo and Franklin in one e mail regarding the introduction page ? :-D
Malc, stop winding the colonials up, don't you think they sound confused enough :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Sam. :roll:
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Oh Boy I love this stuff. Welcome back Franklin, now play nice !! The Thrust SST is the first and only car to go supersonic as the Bud's best was 692 .(It missed the traps on the final run and the team got the Air Force to use land radar to "calculate" that it broke the sound barrier. lol ). If his balloon hadn't escaped the Frenchman might have exceeded 1000 mph in freefall. An extreme example of air friction (or lack of). So the summary is: N/A needs cool temps. and low altitude. Forced induction needs higher altitude and modest temps. Based on speed both cars and the fastest bikes need distance. GPS and radar don't count. If it is a record for the venue then it is the Fastest. I am just one Mega Lotto ticket from my 15 mile indoor LSR track with controlled environment, computer calculated runoff cushioning, and high traction paving. Night racing, no problem, I will use Musco lighting. I will put it in the geographic center of the US and send free tranport for overseas racers. Now excuse me, I have to go buy a ticket. :-D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta3M3_65Fkk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCDVjhleEhQ
Speaking of high altitude, it amazes me no one has yet tried running on the 14,000 foot elevation Salar de Uyuni in Bolivia.
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I am just one Mega Lotto ticket from my 15 mile indoor LSR track with controlled environment, computer calculated runoff cushioning, and high traction paving. Night racing, no problem, I will use Musco lighting. I will put it in the geographic center of the US and send free tranport for overseas racers. Now excuse me, I have to go buy a ticket. :-D
That's a great idea Larry, as an overseas competitor, can I be the first to put my name down ? :-D :-D :-D :-D
Being indoors, no wind and all that, no need for two way runs....save on fuel :-D :-D :-D
By the way, who'll be doing the timing, will I be able to call it an official LSR+ :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Sam. :roll:
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Guy, you've hit upon my thesis -- a speed that is faster than any other comparable vehicle has gone is the fastest in the world and can therefore be considered a world record. Whether the record is sanctioned by any particular organization or not is beside the point (as long as the speed is measured by a certifiable method) - if you've gone faster than anyone else in the world has gone, how could you not have a world record? Any adjective added to the description of world's fastest just dilutes the statement (i.e. world's fastest under the FIM/SCTA/DLRA/CHP/PTA rules), but the speed doesn't change.
Congratulations on the record 228++, and thanks for leaving the goal intact for when (if ever, darn it) I get back on the track with my nitrous bike. Someplace I've got a photo of the control panel of your bike, and I'll try to find and post it here.
I believe the fundamental measure for the validity of a record is whether it is a true measure of technical progress.
For example, a short trap at the end of a mile measures whether a bike can sustain for a short period of time the horsepower needed to run whatever speeds are clocked.
Running the same speeds at Bonneville tells you whether an engine has the durability to clock those speeds over longer distances, so in that sense Bonneville and Texas/Maxton mile records are not the same fundamental measure of progress.
An excellent argument indeed. Long or short? Sustained High output for short time on a 1 mile high traction surface (cement runway) or go the long distance on a controlled wheel spin surface (salt-dirt) thought of as a durability venue. This definitely is a great topic for discussion but holds zero value for anyone other than us who care to continue the topic. Since there is no one person who can say definitively what a "World Land Speed Record" is, how it should be measured or where is should be run, we come to an impasse.
Until someone goes faster than me at any venue on any surface in my category, I shall continue to state the obvious. Adding adjectives to the statement matters not to me. Fastest speed is fastest speed, everything else is subjective to opinions which are just that. But they do make for good reading.
Guy
With trap speeds of close to 260 mph, Top Fuel hydros are A LOT faster than Unlimiteds, yet it's always the Unlimiteds that get credit as "the world's fastest prop-driven boats."
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Wow! this is the coolest thread!
Please keep it going
Bob
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Yes Bobby but, whos side are you on ? the world landspeed record holders or THE WORLD LAND SPEED RECORD HOLDERS. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Sam. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Land Speed Record Holders whose Land Speed Records are the fastest in the world making them World Land Speed Record Holders of World Land Speed Records.
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your post was 2fast4me2c :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Sam. :wink: