Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Stainless1 on May 09, 2008, 10:11:16 PM
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Dropped in on Mad Max today to look at the Vincent Liner and see what he was up to. It seems Max is never satisfied with his work and always working to improve, I guess that is why he is on his 8th Bike Liner. To see what he is up to you can always look at http://www.vincentstreamliner.com/
The most notable change to his bike liner was the new wheeled kickstand, or maybe I should say sidecar. It is quite impressive. As some know last year Max killed his tranny at Bub, but made a short course pass anyway, with high gear only, from a standing start, no push and went through the lights at about 250. Needless to say, the clutch did not survive.
With all the sidecar talk on this site, Max added a third wheel and a platform for a passenger.... volunteers?..... He has done a nice job, I'll bet he is thinking FIM sidecar record. But don't despair race fans, it is removable and in about 15 minutes it's a liner again.
I saw the old tranny pieces, and the new Heavy Duty replacement. Max is starting to put it all back together, but I will try to get by there with the camera to take a few Pics for y'all.
Things are coming together, and we all know Max has sorted out a lot of the weak areas, the hard way, over the last few years. I think this could be the year Max and the old Vincent put a Lightning Strike on the Salt. :-o
300 MPH Sidecar ride anyone.... 8-)
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Dropped in on Mad Max today to look at the Vincent Liner and see what he was up to. It seems Max is never satisfied with his work and always working to improve, I guess that is why he is on his 8th Bike Liner. To see what he is up to you can always look at http://www.vincentstreamliner.com/
The most notable change to his bike liner was the new wheeled kickstand, or maybe I should say sidecar. It is quite impressive. As some know last year Max killed his tranny at Bub, but made a short course pass anyway, with high gear only, from a standing start, no push and went through the lights at about 250. Needless to say, the clutch did not survive.
With all the sidecar talk on this site, Max added a third wheel and a platform for a passenger.... volunteers?..... He has done a nice job, I'll bet he is thinking FIM sidecar record. But don't despair race fans, it is removable and in about 15 minutes it's a liner again.
I saw the old tranny pieces, and the new Heavy Duty replacement. Max is starting to put it all back together, but I will try to get by there with the camera to take a few Pics for y'all.
Things are coming together, and we all know Max has sorted out a lot of the weak areas, the hard way, over the last few years. I think this could be the year Max and the old Vincent put a Lightning Strike on the Salt. :-o
300 MPH Sidecar ride anyone.... 8-)
Thanks for the up-date Stainless. I know that he has had his share of problems with the liner, but it has an unbelievably small frontal area......
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/b-ville%20meets/2006%20BUB-37.jpg)
........... and knowing how it is forever changing it might even be smaller. As far as I can tell it has the smallest frontal area of any of the liners.
The two Vincents.....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/b-ville%20meets/2006%20BUB-36.jpg)
........ stuffed in there has to be the neatest engine combo of the bunch. Is he still going to run a Muncie??
I sure hope this is the 300 mph+ year and a run like that with the sidecar.....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/b-ville%20meets/2006%20BUB-35.jpg)
......... would have to be the icing on the cake.
The best of luck to Mad Max and the team,
Sum
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The failed pieces were a M20, the replacements are M21, Max mentioned that one's the Rock Crusher... :-o The gears are thicker and straighter, not to mention the new one seemed to have all if its teeth.
If it all holds together, and the salt is good, we will see a 300+ sidecar streamliner run
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So if the Vincent will run 300 mph with a sidecar what does he suspect it will do without the third wheel.
Scott
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The failed pieces were a M20, the replacements are M21, Max mentioned that one's the Rock Crusher... :-o The gears are thicker and straighter, not to mention the new one seemed to have all if its teeth.
If it all holds together, and the salt is good, we will see a 300+ sidecar streamliner run
The close ratio M21 is what we ran until last year. Held together for us, but I always had my fingers crossed and I'm glad we have the G-Force in the car now,
Sum
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So if the Vincent will run 300 mph with a sidecar what does he suspect it will do without the third wheel.
Scott
Well, Max has a smaller frontal area than Sam, a lot of grunt from the 2 big Vincents, and thinks he is competitive with the other big boys if nothing breaks. I'm sure that is what Denis, Ack and Sam also think, both about theirs and Max. If you read a little on the build, Max will point out the mistakes he made over the years, those just helped him learn what he needed to do. He is a landspeed racer, and like all of us speculates that there is a possibility the 3-wheeler will go over 300, without the car, right in there with the pack. I may have to attend Bub to watch, it could be as exciting as it was 2 years ago. Sure hope Bub worked out their issues, but that is another story.... :roll:
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So if the Vincent will run 300 mph with a sidecar what does he suspect it will do without the third wheel.
Scott
Sure hope Bub worked out their issues, but that is another story.... :roll:
I have heard from someone who knows Denis' daughter who I believe is a part of the whole operation that they have went to great lengths this year to make the event better after the bad year they had last year.
Scott
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.......................... I may have to attend Bub to watch, it could be as exciting as it was 2 years ago............
Maybe we should look at renting a place in Wendover from August to October. For me it might be cheaper staying there that the gas driving back and forth maybe 4 times if things go right 8-). You're right, if they have a good course and get the other issues worked out at BUB this year it might even be better than 2006,
Sum
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Too bad they didnt moove the meet back a few days instead of up. I am pretty sure I could talk myself, :evil: and my crew into sticking around another week or so to possibly see some history made. Too far,1400 mi each way, to come back 2 weeks after Speedweek. So I will be here in my office anxiously awaiting news and results here on this website. Good luck Max.
Fred
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Dropped in on Max again today, he was painting and starting to put the liner together.
Here is a picture of his transmission, it is a Muncie in a case Max made. I remember a thread a while back discussing shifting. Look at this set-up. It is a single air cylinder that shifts a 4 speed, and an engineering feat I have never seen. You guys down under need to take a look at this. And all this time I just thought Max sat around drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes..... who knew he was really thinking.... :-D
Max will have to show you how it works, but it locks and holds the tranny in gear until the shift signal, see the switch, that is part of the sequence to get to the tranny to the upper gears.
More to follow...
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Here's a couple pics of the frame, Max was painting... yep that why there seems to be a little dust on everything else, Max has a combination shop, garage, paint booth. For an old fart painting in his garage, y'all know his stuff always looks professionally finished.
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I mentioned earlied Max was targeting the streamlined sidecar record, you can read more at
http://www.vincentstreamliner.com/
Here is proof, we popped the chair platform on the frame for a couple of shots. The big bolts are for the ballast plates, the second shot is the adjustment for the sidecar wheel.
The last is the master at work.... :-o really, he is actually working on his next step toward the sidecar streamliner record... :-D
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OK, I hear ya, the sidecar doesn't look very streamlined, well it isn't completely installed either, Max has a lot to do before it gets attached, but we popped it on to give you a preview.
Here is the streamlined part hung in place, OK several views.
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Ya know when ya saw Max sitting looking a few pics back, he stood up, walked around the scooter pointed to the fin on the back of the sidecar and said, I might even add a trim tab or two just in case it pulls a little toward the chair, just as well use the air that is making it pull to straighten it out.... :-o
I'm looking forward to seeing this happen, it should be an exciting Bub if we have salt and weather.
the big 3 and the dark horse, did I mention the chair comes off in 15 minutes... 8-) 8-)
If it goes as fast as Max expects we might be viewing an engineering marvel and possibly a sidecar that exceeds Dave's 322 number that took so long to top. :-o
I'll get by for some more pictures in a couple more weeks, I have work to do on my bike.
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Good Post, Stainless.
It's fun to document the progress, isn't it?
It's just difficult to know when to quit.
FREUD
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Thanks Stainless!! Max's frame is truly a tribute to packageing everything into as small a frontal area as possible. Beautiful!!
Rex
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As it goes together, I'll try to get by and take more pictures. Max squeezes a lot of stuff in a small package, I also like his style. There might be a couple of cubic inches of wasted space. The twin Vincents pump out a lot of grunt, hope to hear it at full song this year... :-o
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I'm not into bikes much but if I was this is the one. What a great piece of work.
Dave Haller #93
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What an artist, thanks for posting. -Dean
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Went by to see Max again, he is making progress getting it back together. He has the new chute tube liners in, 2 of 3 water tanks mounted. One mists the chain and clutch, another to mist around the motors, the last will be the cooling water for the cylinder liners.
The chunk of iron is side car ballast doing double duty today holding the back of the scooter down while it hangs on a chain.
The additional fire bottles are in and actuating mechanisms installed, and so is the tranny. Speaking of the tranny, I guess I screwed up the last description a little, Max is only using 2, 3 and 4, so low is actually 2nd. Max also mentioned he didn't design the trans case, he just modified it to an unrecognizable state from a trans Don Vesco sent him. It was considerably larger and heavier in its previous life.
And the last is the trans mounted in the scooter with one of those water tanks above, Ill see if I shot another picture from the other side. I still am amazed Max is shifting both gear sets with 1 actuator. Max said the swing arm was going in tomorrow.
Tried that pictures mixed with text thing, going to have to work on that skill a little more, it was AFU... :|
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Here ya go, the trans from the other side and the actuator mounted.
Also shot a picture of his new rear fender, looks a little like an old Harley front fender, but much larger. Fits with the other part of the fender that is attached to the swingarm. More pics to follow.
I know I am going to the Bub meet, there could be another big "fast bike shootout" if the salt is in good condition. Gotta get back to work on Jons engine and my fairing (fiberglass repair ya know)
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Stainless,
Please keep posting this build! Thanks so much for your efforts.
Scott
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Stainless,
Please keep posting this build! Thanks so much for your efforts.
Scott
Yes thanks for teh pictures and info, seems like Max would go after a harder FIM absolute record first and then once he has done the hard work go after the "Wheel on a stick record"
Scott where ya been and let me know how mommy 2B is doing.
J
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Scott where ya been and let me know how mommy 2B is doing.
J
John, I have been taking care of her as she was put on bed rest. She is ok but we have had a few minor issues, thus the bed rest.
Scott
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Yes thanks for thepictures and info, seems like Max would go after a harder FIM absolute record first and then once he has done the hard work go after the "Wheel on a stick record"
J
Nope, Max it planning on starting with the FIM sidecar record, well under 200 and hopes to almost double it... :-o
Then pop the chair off and run with the big boys.... 8-)
If you visit his website you can see the evolution of this bike. Like all LSR guys, change is the only constant, that is how you make it go faster.
http://www.vincentstreamliner.com/
20 years is a long development for some guys, for LSR guys, it is just a little tick on the clock...
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it is interesting to watch the development of this project, thankyou to all concerned,,, i seam to recall reading somewhere that there has been a weight trimming exercise since last year, if so, how much weight has been taken out of the liner :?, (no sidecar)
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it is interesting to watch the development of this project, thankyou to all concerned,,, i seam to recall reading somewhere that there has been a weight trimming exercise since last year, if so, how much weight has been taken out of the liner :?, (no sidecar)
A little over a hundred pounds.
KBM
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I promised a few more pictures of Max's bike going together, I mentioned the swing arm was going in, here are the pictures. The first thing to notice is the downstop, the shiny round piece mounted to the frame. Max has those in various sizes and in conjunction with the springs can set the ride from almost solid to soft, depending on the salt. A few pictures back I showed the rear fender that looked like an old HD front, only larger, the rails on the top of the arm mount the fender, inside the arm you see the bottom half.
The top angle pic shows another view. The big spring is the main suspension, adjusts ride height and stiffness, and must be installed simultaneously with the arm. Then the porta-power compresses the arm, the shocks and stop get installed. When Max is putting this all together he must install what looks like random pieces in a certain order. So he cant just put in the suspension, then the solenoids and regulators, because once some parts are installed, others cannot be. This is the way he has packaged so much in such a small area. As I goes together the amount of open areas shrink to nothing, an engineering marvel....
The other side, wiring is being routed while there is still room to do it easily. The 2 pull cables in front of the spring are for the externally actuated fire system, you saw the bottles that will be under the engines a few pictures ago.
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Ignition coils are in, main fire system plumbing is in. See the auto type coil on the floor also wired to the bike, that is just part of the tach drive. A few years back, Max had an issue with his Tach causing an ignition problem, made the engines miss, so he just built an ignition sending unit that is basically an ignition to nowhere but the tach. It is mechanically driven from the front motor.
Do you see the puke can, it is in both pictures, OK, it is a little hard to spot. Look at the frame rail across the top of the engine bay, if you follow it to the tee on the right side you see one of the inlets. Max uses this rail as the puke tank, it drains in the rear of the bay at the bottom of another tube. Why, no for a big tank other than integrated into the frame.
Max uses CO2 for pressure, part of it is a 300 PSI system, skids and parachute deployment ejection, then 100 PSI for shifting. Water tank pressurization is accomplished with a mini compressor. As I mentioned earlier, most of the small tanks you will see in pictures are cooling water tanks, using spray mists on the heads, chain, tires and clutch. Keeping things cool make them last longer at the speeds this bike needs to go. The water tanks are all built to fit available space. The big one is Fuel, takes a lot of alcohol to feed 3000cc of blown Vincent motors.
You need to show up at the Bub to look at this scooter, it is an engineering masterpiece. Of course many have seen the other bikes that preceded this one, they too were very nice pictures on his website. This one is the evolution, and even though you think it might be finished, I'll bet Max continues to modify and improve until you see it in September. Let's all say a little prayer for good salt and weather. I try to keep up with a few pictures here, as Patti takes pictures, they show up on his website, so you may need to follow both. Max still has a lot of assembly to do, glad he remembers the order to do it... 8-)
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Hi all. I am new to this site and would like to say thanks to Stainless for keeping us in the Uk up to date. Some of us from the VOC sidecar section are coming over and hope to see a Vincent sidecar record taken. Good luck to all contestants. deejay499
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Dropped in on Max again today to see if he was still sitting around drinking coffee and smoking. Don't light a match, he was painting parts and assembling the scooter. He had installed the actuating cylinders and lines for the skids. And that tach drive ignition coil. The big purple cylinder is the fuel filter. All this stuff gets covered up in the near future. As it goes together the space starts to shrink.
Since Max has made the suspension and ride height adjustable, the skids are adjustable also. The 2 bolts are in a slot to adjust skid length.
And the other side, the forward puke tank spigot is easy to see from this view as well, remember, it is that frame member that curves around the top of the motors. The big tank is fuel, it is also bolted in now.
Most of you that know me know our car is small and everything is stuffed in a fairly compact space. But I am constantly amazed at how much Max can put in a small space. :-o Everything has a spot, and is shoe-horned in its place. I thought we were good at packaging, we have lots of unused space compared to Max's scooter, it is an engineering marvel.
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Sidecars must carry ballast. I showed you the hack, the ballast is bolted on. Max decided on on the final placement and the holes are ready to be placed. Here is the setup to locate the holes.
And one of the small (12lb) ballast pieces after drilling.
Attention to detail is evident throughout this bike. If you get the chance to check it out at Bub, do it. If not, also lots of pictures and updates on his website. I'll keep you posted.... See ya on the salt 8-)
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Max, certainly does outstanding work, the liner is a piece of art..........................................................
Regarding the ballast required for FIM sidecar record (60kg=132lbs)..........the required ballast can be mounted any place on the outfit, however, it has to be removeable for weight check.... if asked.........................I would certainly mount most if not all the ballast in the sidecar, (just like Max is doing)..............but we have found in the past that depending on the outfits wheelbase and sidecar track.....the full 60kg in the chair might effect the handling, but as per FIM regs this is not a problem.......so some of the ballast can be mounted (for example) over the
drive wheel for traction.
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Bak, I thought the weight was passenger simulation. Not a FIM guy, so I don't have a clue, but I'll bet there will be enough in the hack.
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Sounds like a reasonable rule for passenger simulation -- in fact a real passenger can and does redistribute his weight to various corners of the rig during some kinds of competition.
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The 132lbs (60kg) is for passenger simulation....
FIM Regs. want the total weight of the outfit....
PLUS 60kg. (132lbs)
Back in the "old days" racing in Europe we had a 250c.c. rider on the team, who weight in race ready at 129lbs. they would have him step on the scale....race ready at 133lbs.......with a piece of chain in his helmet (holding the helmet under his arm)........worked 2 times......not the 3rd time
....we fed him lots of pasta.
I don't believe FIM 60kg rule is used anymore in MOTO-GP racing today..............................................
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Dropped in on Max to see if he was doing anything, looks like the elves have been hard at work.
First the blower is in... lots going on here, top down, a Ron's toilet bowl, about a 1400 CFM (yep 1400) unit. It sits on a Max built distribution block with 4 injectors. These are on the "suck" side of the blower and are the atomizer type (they mix air with fuel) fan injectors. They spray about 30% of the fuel into the blower, cools the charge and the blower. Next comes the blower, massaged for about 25 PSI, Teflon wipers, clearanced, overdriven about 1.6 to 1. The outlet is another Max design, all this is mounted on top the tranny, notice it is also connected to the frame to prevent twisting.
Hard to believe the 1400? That thing will swallow your head. You can see the 4 injectors with little air filters on them in the front as well as the injector above the rotors in the blower. To the right is the distribution block for the individual cylinder injectors. As I said, there is a lot going on here. The injectors in the blower get 3 lbs of pressure for starting, the cylinder injectors don't get any until fuel pressure exceeds 8 lbs, part of Max's flood control project. :-D
Here is a shot from the front. Of course you can't get a shot from the back, that is already hidden. The four hoses on the left go to the cylinder injectors. When you are building the smallest vehicle possible packaging is everything. Max's engineering leaves very little wasted space.
Hopefully I pointed out everything, if you see something you wonder about, ask, I'm sure Max will chime in and explain things a little better than I can. Of course, he might be a little busy with assembly.
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Since Max has made the suspension and ride height adjustable, the skids are adjustable also. The 2 bolts are in a slot to adjust skid length.
The skid pivots are mounted to the frame and cylinders, when retracted, fit flush with the body. The actual skids are stainless steel and pivot to stay flat on the surface.
This was taken during the auto retraction test, Yes, it is hard to see movement in a still picture, but since my u-tube skills are limited, you are stuck with what you see, use a little imagination, see it moving up into the retracted position.... (look back at pic 1 real fast if it helps) :roll:
Max built a couple of down locks for the skids. Since it is impossible to keep pressure on them all the time, the locks keep the scooter on its "kickstand" The auto retract springs are easier to see in this view.
As Paul Harvey might say, now you know the rest of the story (of the skids in pictures) 8-)
Don't despair, I will continue to visit Mad Max to check on his progress.
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The Kansas Bad Man has to say thanks to Mr. Stainless for sharing my scooter with ya'all.
However, now the pressure's on to get something done every three or four days for his updates. Also I put all warm bodies to work who pass my threshold, and he's no exception. Stainless moved some holes around on the ballast plates. I goofed. He fixed.
Max
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Well it was Friday yesterday and that meant it was time to check on Max. For those that were expecting me to post yesterday, I had friends in town, so after we visited Max, we had a few beers, so the update is running a little late.
Max has the parachute doors installed and solenoids for his various air tank pressures and parachutes are plumbed. I'll pop in a few door pictures in a minute, there are other things going on here. The little compressor behind the water tank is for pressurizing the tanks that spray water mist on the heads, clutch and chain.
Can you see the little stacked V thing in front of the parachute tubes, OK here is a better picture, that is the tip-over switch that kills everything automatically deploys the chutes if the bike is on its side. This one was built by one of Max's fellow Vincent Club members Dan Smith. Nice mercury switch, looks pretty good, works great.
The cylinders above and below the parachute tubes are the drogue chute ejectors, they work in conjunction with the doors and are fired by the solenoid pack on the other side that is identical to the one you see. As I told you before, that is part of the C02 pressure system.
In the next installment, I'll show you the doors and how that works.
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Thanks Stainless. This documentation is great. I'm a car guy but I also appreciate fine craftsmanship and this project is the epitome of that. I've put a lot of miles on street bikes but have never competed on less than four wheels intentionally.
Pete
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As threatened, the parachute doors...
Of course, the best way to finish the passage through the air is a smooth exit. Looking back at Max's previous 7 streamliners you see the constant change to improve the mechanical issues and also consistent attention to aero. The doors on #8 are a lesson in KISS.
The doors are held closed with the spring, you cant see the floor because the bottom is closed to follow the body form as is the top, when the body is on.
Here is the inside of the door
Now comes the deployment of the drogue chutes, press the upper chute button, the solenoid fires the C02 into the cylinder, the drogue chute is fired back in its holder which opens the doors as it slides down the channel ejecting the drogue in the airstream.
The lower is the same mechanics except Max had an issue during initial tests of the system, the drogue hung up occasionally on the lower curved door, so the lower cradles the drogue through deployment. Either one will open the door, chures follow the drogues through the open door, Like I said, after it is designed, it seems so simple, doesn't it. :-o
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Hey all, I made a correction a few posts back. The Dan Smith tip-over doesn't kill it, it launches the chutes. So there ya go, now everyone knows I finally made a mistake, of course it is the second one I made in my life. The other one was when I thought I was wrong... :mrgreen:
Back to topic, Max is still working on the scooter, starts before dawn almost every morning, sometimes he sleeps in until 6. The drive line is coming together. The outboard bearing support for the drive side of the tranny is installed, the sprockets, chain and wheel are in.
Here is a little closer look at Max's bearing support. Since the design of an automotive transmission does not allow for running sprockets off the ends, it requires some external support. By the time everything gets installed, the transmission input/output shaft will be supported by 7 internal and external bearings. The support on this side is connected to the transmission and the frame. Behind there is a 22 tooth sprocket driving a 630 chain. As I mentioned before, the chain gets a cooling water mist on it.
The rear sprocket is a 24 tooth. All this drives a 3 piece steel rimmed Taylor wheel and Firestone Bonneville Tire. More on this in a few minutes.
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Drool. Hope I get a chance to see this machine in action someday. Thanks again for the pics and words SS. -Dean
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Stainless,
Please pass on to Max that he does awesome work and thanks for sharing! It is amazing to watch this machine come together and I thank you for taking the time to post it all for us to watch.
I have a question regarding the chain cooling. Why water instead of oil? I don't crap about chain cooling, but I thought that maybe oil would lubricate as well as cool. Please educate me! :-)
Scott
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OK car guys, stop drooling on the tire while I talk about the brake. Wilwood NASCAR 4 piston caliper with linings good for use at 250 MPH. Of course, it is not going to be used at that speed, in fact like a lot of high speed vehicles, it will probably never get used at all.
Back to the drooling... 700 X 18 Firestone, and in darn great shape. Yes Virginia, this is the real deal Bonneville 600MPH car tire, but it has a great shape for a bike tire. Yes, in the picture it looks like a raised flat shape, but it is rounded, see the other picture. The fender I showed you a while back goes over it to reduce the salt in the bike. This tire is really old, but you would never know by looking at it. Original owner, Art Arfons, this was one of his Jet Car lightly used or spare tires. Next, Al Teague, that is where Max got them, yes I said them, Max has 4. Another that looks like this and a couple that have seen a little harder use, all speed tested.
If you see something I didn't talk about feel free to ask, I get a lot of information every time I visit, and with limited buffaloes in the herd, so I miss a little here and there.
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I'm getting dehydrated here. :-D
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Scott, my guess, an oil mist creates an explosive atmosphere, at least that was my experience with hydraulics in airplanes, they burned a chunk of C5 down when a small crack in a line misted the cockpit area, and was ignited by an electrical system.
The chain will be properly lubricated, the water mist is just used to reduce chain heat so it lives longer. Hopefully Max will look at this or Ack, I think he also mists his chains, and fill us in on any additional info. When you are looking to go 350+ your chain will get extremely hot, and the heat will make it fail.
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Stainless-thanks for the photos of Max's bike it's f*****g awesome.Does Max use hub-centre steering? If so could you please post some photos.I have made a hub but would like to see how the steering is connected back to the handlebars.My partner and I coming to the BUB meeting and El Marage and are looking forward to putting faces to names.
cheers, bones
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Bones, it is hub-center steering, and we will get to that end of the scooter before we get done. I will try to snap a picture or 2 of it but that end is not photo ready. Have you looked on Max's website, I'll bet it is shown there. If you don't find it, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you a couple of "not ready for prime time" pictures.
http://www.vincentstreamliner.com/
Scott, checked with Max, here is his reply.
Cooling the chain with oil probably wouldn't pass inspection. Oil on the salt and all. To cool the chain, it takes about a gallon of water sprayed on the chain in a time span of 1-1/2 minutes. It takes that kind of volume to transfer the BTU's that the chain builds up through convection. It would require much more oil than that, due to oils viscosity and inability to cover the convection area of the chain--i.e. the chain spinning at high speeds. It would be a real mess and not good for the salt.
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Scott, checked with Max, here is his reply.
Cooling the chain with oil probably wouldn't pass inspection. Oil on the salt and all. To cool the chain, it takes about a gallon of water sprayed on the chain in a time span of 1-1/2 minutes. It takes that kind of volume to transfer the BTU's that the chain builds up through convection. It would require much more oil than that, due to oils viscosity and inability to cover the convection area of the chain--i.e. the chain spinning at high speeds. It would be a real mess and not good for the salt.
Thanks Stainless!
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Here's a photo of two of Max's spare tires, in the back of my MINI Cooper. I picked them up from a guy in the Vincent club that has a shop just around the corner from Al Teague, and delivered them to Max at last year's BUB meet. The two better tires were sent ahead to Max. These two, even though they are the 2nd and 3rd spares, are in pretty darn good shape too, a testament to the care takers, Art and Al.
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Maybe Sam Wheeler could use one of those? Or did he need a front, I don't know.
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Sam needs a front, the 700 X 18 is way too huge for his or any bike front. When we get to the front you will see a smaller front tire on Max's scooter. While we are talking tire, the rear wheel is only 2 outta 3 Taylor, Max built the center spoke.
Going by today to see Max later today, I'll take the camera just in case...
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Sometimes you have to move fast to keep up with an old guy....
I stopped to chat with Max a couple of days ago, he said he didn't have anything picture worthy going on that day, but I snapped the first photo in Max's Paint Booth anyway. That is the 5 gallon water tank he uses to circulate water through the jackets on the cylinders. Easy enough... :roll:
Now here is is mounted in the bike. it is the part behind the wheel, in front of the parachute tubes, with the red and white water pumps on top. You can see the one on the other side just a little from this angle. The 2 pumps circulate the water 4 times during a run, making the water 205-210F after it is all over. One pump feeds the front engine, the other the aft. Kind of engineered to fit the available space, as is everything else. If I have waited on some of the other pictures, you would just have to take my word that it was there, cause it disappears as things go together.
Here is another angle, the return hose inlet on the top, covered with the aluminium plate is large enough to pass Ice in there if it becomes necessary for temperature control. The little compressor behind the other tank is the one I told you max uses to pressurize the misting tanks, the regulator for it is below the compressor. Most everything back here is now installed, wired and plumbed.
I have several more pictures to post, but I have to go help a guy move some stuff and then drink a couple of his beers.... :-D More to follow...
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SS1, has anyone told you how much we enjoy and appreciate your pics and descriptions of what is happening with Max's liner. Well I do and I am telling you THANKS!!! Fred
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Alright, I'm back. Here is a closer shot of the little compressor and regulator.
The fender I showed a while back is painted and mounted. The seals / salt flaps are yet to be installed to seal to the lower body. Starting to fill in the open spaces quite nicely don't you think.
And a shot from the other side where you can see the other water pump, the second battery, the water hoses routed toward the engines and the man behind this machine. Take a look at the top of the tank, it is padded so you can set spark plugs ready for inspecting, or tools on it. If you look around, there are not a lot of convenient flat spots on this scooter. Do you see any open space, Max has engineered this bike to be the smallest package possible. I like what he has done.
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Just a couple more this trip. Here are a couple of prospective shots, of course there will be more, but these should get you started thinking about the actual size of this bike. The legs on the hoist measure 32 inches between the insides. We also measured and determined the bike will fit in Max's new 24 foot trailer, with inches to spare... :-o And a little height check, no trick photography here, if you look at the Black Lightning website you can see Max holding the bike up by standing over it. (yea, he does have to pull his pants up a little for that trick)
OK, all you west coast guys traveling to EM this weekend have fun, be safe, go fast. Y'all from the east coast keep prepping for Maxton next week. Those of us equidistant to any coast will continue to prep for the salt. I'm headed to Denver Monday to work on the Lakester and help Jon Amo with a few things on his scooter, so my next update pictures are a couple of weeks out.
Max, no pressure for a couple of weeks, unless Patti keeps the picture pressure on...
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Is everybody waiting to see what is next, dang it, me too... :-o
As I watched the scooter going together, I noticed Max was slow, but steady, kind of like you would want when building something with this speed potential.
While I work on the MSA Lakester, I find myself wondering what Max has completed. I also noticed a few things that I had not noticed before, we do have a ton of open space... not nearly as crowded in the lakester as I once thought. :|
I went to
http://www.vincentstreamliner.com/BlackLightning/2007-2008/photos/index3.html
to check pictures, if you haven't looked there, you should. It just might help get you through to next week when I return to Wichita and go visit Max.
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Well I'm back, and as suspected Max has a lot done, in fact the chassis is done, Max was working on the motors. :| OK, that don 't worry, that won't stop me from taking chassis pictures. So here we go
We talked about the chain mister in an earlier post, it is made and installed. Max couldn't use an off the shelf type because he didn't think they produced the amount of mist he needed to cool the area.
Water tank hoses are clamped and routed, waiting for the motors for final connection
Oil tank is installed, hoses and lines are connected and routed. Remember the frame piece that doubles as a puke tank, it also functions as the fuel roll over spill protection. The oil tank (front) and Fuel tank get padding to keep body removal and tool scratches to a minimum. The oil tank return lines get connected after the motors are in.
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Here's the High Speed side of the fuel injection pressure regulator. That is the skid actuators buried under there
I'll back out a little so you get a little better idea of how the space is used. The red piece on the bottom is the support for the external starter.
OK, a couple more steps back is all the farther I can get and you can easily see the use of space by all the places you can see through this bike. Yep the only open spot is where the motor goes. Max did a really good job when he engineered this scooter to be small.
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Let's move forward... :-D :-D
First we will check width, yes the tape reads a hair over 17 inches to the outside, body will make it about 18. We squeeze into 22 inches inside width in the Bockscar. Get your tape measures out to get the real feel here guys, but don't forget that is the outside width.
We look in to the seat....
And out from it....
Sure looks roomy doesn't it :-o My guess it you get limited rider ballast from the space available.
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Here's the side view first with the bars down, then up...
The bars need to swing up to allow enough room for the rider to get in and out. The pivots must all be designed so the bars function is not impared. On the far side of the bike is the skid control, the close side is a fire bottle spray shut off. Don Vesco told Max that he needed one for safety. When you have 10 lbs of Halon in a small cockpit, there is way too much agent and the rider may want to regulate it a little.
The last picture is the leg restraint system, that locks when the bars are lowered. The slot with the pin just behind the fire bottles is where the restraint connects. The cylinder behind it is the lifter for the bars, they raise automatically when the bar release is tripped.
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Bones, here's the steering...
The pivot on the right side of the picture is the bar pivot, the single bar from the tilting parallelogram is now the steering movement. That bar goes to the pivot that is mounted on the bike frame. One of the issues for this type of steering is "bump steer." There are ways to limit the effect like keeping everything parallel, or the way Max has done it.
The upper steering pivot is there on the frame, the lower pivot is on the swing arm, As the swing arm moves, the upper is fixed, the shaft that transfers motion down to the lower has couplings in the middle. There are 2 U joints that allow the shaft to flex with the swingarm arc, but the piece that eliminates the bump steer is the sliding shaft that goes through the lower pivot. This way the swingarm and lower pivot moves without changing the steering input to the lower pivot. The lower steering arm and pivot and center hub move with the swingarm as one piece. Hope all that makes sense, it is not as simple as it sounds... :roll:
The front wheel center and the Hub center steering were all built by the elves in Max's garage. As you can see, Max must have been cracking the whip over those same elves over the past week. There is more, but I have a few chores to do so check back later.
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OK boys and girls, just a few more chassis pictures and then we move to motor.
We are looking at the top of the handlebars, the series of holes on the right half, this is the steering ratio control. Currently it is in the 4:1 hole. Moving the steering rod inboard or outboard allows Max to slow down or speed up the steering response to handlebar movements.
And another angle looking at the steering and front swing arm.... Wondering about the loop over the front tire yet? It is another mister system. Look back a the last picture of the last post, yep that is another water tank on the front of the bike. This one is used to cool the front tire.
The front swing arm from the other side, and steering dampener
The only thing left to do up here is to build a piece to keep salt our of the steering linkage behind the wheel. As soon as Max designs it the elves will make it and get it on the bike while he is sleeping... :roll:
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Motor, well actually motors...
At the heart of these old Vincents we find Terry Prince Crankshafts, stroked an inch to 4.5 with Carilllo rods. 4 bearings support the cranks.
This view you can see the "heavy metal" balance weights and get a good look at the John Mcdougall output shafts. Stockers are 1 inch, these are 1.5. John balanced the cranks at 60% RPM, so at low RPM the motors have a bit of vibration, but when you get to 3000 RPM, they smooth out and feel like a 4 banger.
Here we have the fuel pump and the Tach drive distributor that works with the coil I showed you a while back. It is not the ignition, just a "faux distributor" to run the tach.
As Max works the motors, we will see more
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Lets see the front half... :-D
And of course for perspective, I'll risk the camera one more time .... :|
If you have any questions or if I didn't explain something you see in a picture, don't hesitate to ask. Enjoy
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In Tenacious II the handlebars also raised (with the canopy) for ease of getting into and out of the machine. I had a safety concern because if the machine crashed and the canopy came open, your arms came up with it...not good. I asked if something could be done to insure it wouldn't come open. A seat belt strap was added. Primitive, but added a little relief. This design was later shelved on Big Red.
I'm sure Max's design eliminates this issue, but on Tenacious II, the only thing that kept everything down and in place was the small latch at the top of the canopy.
Max is an awesome craftsman. Thanks for the updates.
Rocky R
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First, I made a little correction back on the motor post, John McDougall did the balancing.
In Tenacious II the handlebars also raised (with the canopy) for ease of getting into and out of the machine. I had a safety concern because if the machine crashed and the canopy came open, your arms came up with it...not good. I asked if something could be done to insure it wouldn't come open. A seat belt strap was added. Primitive, but added a little relief. This design was later shelved on Big Red.
I'm sure Max's design eliminates this issue, but on Tenacious II, the only thing that kept everything down and in place was the small latch at the top of the canopy.
Rocky R
Rocky, you are correct, in Max's design the canopy and handlebars are not connected. The hand and arm restraints are not connected to the handlebar release either, just the leg restraints. There is a good latch on the bars. The seat belt release holds the arm restraints in the Vincent. Those bars on the sides aid in rider entry and exit as well as affording additional crash protection.
Max had the benefit of having Don Vesco as one of if not his first rider. I remember when Don rode it the first time, he gave Max a shopping list of changes. Max has constantly and consistently improved this scooter over the years. I think he does a lot of the stop, look and listen, gleaning the smart things to incorporate into his bikes. He is an awesome craftsman..... for an old guy working in his garage :-D
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Those of you that read Max's plans for 08 on his website know he needs a different lift, his old on is 3 feet wide and has clearance issues with the hack. To solve this issue, Max is planning a new lift, and hopefully it will also aid in loading and unloading the liner from the new trailer.
After discussing what he planned, we made a little trip to the caster store (Harbor Freight) and a place here in Wichita called The Yard. If you can't find it at The Yard, you don't need it.... find being the operative term here. :roll: You have to locate it before you can buy it.
The basic layout, it is 5 X 7, with 5 foot legs, 2 inch 11 gauge tubing
It was leveled on the floor, then the legs were welded plumb
The armadillo has landed... bracing is in production, not welded yet, also have to figure out how to cut a 60 degree angle for the scooter side fore/aft brace. The scooter will hang on the angle piece 18 inches from the side.
Back to work....
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Those of you that read Max's plans for 08 on his website know he needs a different lift, his old on is 3 feet wide and has clearance issues with the hack. To solve this issue, Max is planning a new lift, and hopefully it will also aid in loading and unloading the liner from the new trailer.
After discussing what he planned, we made a little trip to the caster store (Harbor Freight) and a place here in Wichita called The Yard. If you can't find it at The Yard, you don't need it.... find being the operative term here. :roll: You have to locate it before you can buy it.
The basic layout, it is 5 X 7, with 5 foot legs, 2 inch 11 gauge tubing
It was leveled on the floor, then the legs were welded plumb
The armadillo has landed... bracing is in production, not welded yet, also have to figure out how to cut a 60 degree angle for the scooter side fore/aft brace. The scooter will hang on the angle piece 18 inches from the side.
Back to work....
If you noticed the shop in the photo is a lot bigger and cleaner than in the previous photos. Stainless neglected to say that he's taken on the chore of building the new A frame for me in his shop. That armadillo you're looking at is his doing. This is the first I've seen of it, other than a drawing he handed me the other day.
Looks good, Stainless. Thanks a bunch.
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.........................If you noticed the shop in the photo is a lot bigger and cleaner than in the previous photos. Stainless neglected to say that he's taken on the chore of building the new A frame for me in his shop. That armadillo you're looking at is his doing. This is the first I've seen of it, other than a drawing he handed me the other day.
Looks good, Stainless. Thanks a bunch.
I'm glad you have help and I'm thinking I'm going to have to go to BUB if possible. The best to you Max and tell Stainless that the armadillo might work better with the wheels on the ground..........
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3908.0;attach=5484;image)
Are you running at Speed Week also or just waiting for BUB?
Sum
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.........................If you noticed the shop in the photo is a lot bigger and cleaner than in the previous photos. Stainless neglected to say that he's taken on the chore of building the new A frame for me in his shop. That armadillo you're looking at is his doing. This is the first I've seen of it, other than a drawing he handed me the other day.
Looks good, Stainless. Thanks a bunch.
I'm glad you have help and I'm thinking I'm going to have to go to BUB if possible. The best to you Max and tell Stainless that the armadillo might work better with the wheels on the ground..........
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3908.0;attach=5484;image)
Are you running at Speed Week also or just waiting for BUB?
Sum
Sum,
Black Lightning's attempt is really a low budget operation compared to the others. (Maybe except for E-Z Hook) My crew comes from all over the world, only meeting once a year on the salt. It's impossible financially for me or them to make more than one event a year. The Bub Meet offers the best opportunity for any success in the FIM records for which I'm competing. So Bub it'll be. I hope you can make the meet, it should be interesting.
Max
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Gosh, I was hoping one of the smart fab guys on this site would tell me how to cut a 60 with my little 0-45 4.5 inch Harbor Freight bandsaw, might have to scribe it on the tube and cut it with a Dotco.... :|
Sum, it is incredibly hard to move that thing around the shop, I shoulda thought of putting the wheels on the other side... :roll: Thanks. I'll try that tomorrow :-D
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Gosh, I was hoping one of the smart fab guys on this site would tell me how to cut a 60 with my little 0-45 4.5 inch Harbor Freight bandsaw, might have to scribe it on the tube and cut it with a Dotco.... :|
Sum, it is incredibly hard to move that thing around the shop, I shoulda thought of putting the wheels on the other side... :roll: Thanks. I'll try that tomorrow :-D
Cut a 30........the other side will be a 60. Aren't you glad I helped you out with the wheel thing :evil:,
Sum
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"Gosh, I was hoping one of the smart fab guys on this site would tell me how to cut a 60 with my little 0-45 4.5 inch Harbor Freight bandsaw, might have to scribe it on the tube and cut it with a Dotco...."
Scribe the tube with the required 60 degree angle. Set your band saw up in its vertical configuration using the cheap flimsey little table that comes with it. Saw away. You may have to do a very light touch up with the grinder depending on how vertical the blade was to the table.
Pete
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PJ, I was afraid that was the answer, I guess I'll go find the little table, hope I didn't use it for a project that needed some thin material... :-P
For everyone else, I caught Max working again yesterday, he was making shafts for the gear drive between the motors. I could have taken a picture of his big pile of chips, but we decided maybe today might be better. I'm going that way to trade out my Argon and Oxygen bottles, so I'll stop by.
I'll keep you posted...
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Just wanted to tell you what a Great job i think your doing on all the progress of the old man`s streamliner.He may be slow but he`s smooth.Thanks again for the use of the bead blaster.
little max
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Little Max, your welcome, still looking for my portable.
Sum, You are so right about the wheel thing, I turned that thing over and it moves around the shop so much easier. I may have to push it outside and paint it now that it moves so easily...
I stopped to see Max, caught him working on the motors. He had taken a break from motor work to get the salt flap on the rear fender. He hopes it will help keep a little of the salt out of the bike, it seals around the body.
As part of his motor work, he needed to make a couple of dummy shafts to sub in for the cranks, here is the part that's not shaft... I knew he was keeping busy :roll:
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OK, now don't tell Max, but I snuck a couple of pics of the motor work. :evil: This first one is one of the fixtures that locks the crank drive gears at TDC. There is one for each crank.
Here is the drive set up, the dummy shafts I mentioned are the big aluminum ones. Max is relocating one of the holes to pick up a little of the backlash. The gears are quick change rear gears that Max had EDM'd to the correct size cause they are hard as diamonds. Of course, all of those shafts have bearings and supports on both sides. More to follow as motor work progresses....
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While I was there, we decided to pick up Max's new Bonneville tool box at Lowes. I had my grandson there so it was easier assembling and lifting on a couple of old guys... :| Max expects to be able to carry his tools and spares and get rid of his "plastic totes" organization system.
It will look great in his new trailer 8-)
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Painted the SSCLD (Streamlined Sidecar Lugging Device) yesterday... :| OK, I am not a painter, I sprayed it in the yard, got done just as the local cottonwood tree decided to puke up some more cotton. That stuff makes a fly on the paint look good.
It is outside again today, supposed to rain again, (sorry there west coasters, we are getting more of your share and don't need it) so I will see if there are any thin spots or spots I missed. Hoping to find them here, and not on the salt where they really turn bright red. :-P If it needs another coat I have plenty of paint, I use it for the iron fence as well.
dropping in on Max later....
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Painted the SSCLD (Streamlined Sidecar Lugging Device) yesterday... :| OK, I am not a painter, I sprayed it in the yard, got done just as the local cottonwood tree decided to puke up some more cotton. That stuff makes a fly on the paint look good.
It is outside again today, supposed to rain again, (sorry there west coasters, we are getting more of your share and don't need it) so I will see if there are any thin spots or spots I missed. Hoping to find them here, and not on the salt where they really turn bright red. :-P If it needs another coat I have plenty of paint, I use it for the iron fence as well.
dropping in on Max later....
Looks good, but tell me about the car in the second picture,
Sum
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Looks good, but tell me about the car in the second picture,
Sum
38 Packard Coupe, picked it up in project status 6 months ago to play with in my spare time. Haven't touched it except to move it out of the way several times. Back on subject
Max relocated the shafts in the case for the 2 upper gears (2 & 4) to adjust the backlash. :-o That is not a small task
Then relocated the same holes on the carrier support plate. The 2 shafts and gears you can see are the crankshaft dummies he made earlier.
This is the piece, basically the left half of the 2 motors mated together A to B. Max is cleaning the other motor parts, getting ready to assemble. Things are starting to take shape... :-D Hopefully I will catch him before it is all together the next time. He seems to be picking up momentum....
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Painted the SSCLD (Streamlined Sidecar Lugging Device) yesterday... :| OK, I am not a painter, I sprayed it in the yard, got done just as the local cottonwood tree decided to puke up some more cotton. That stuff makes a fly on the paint look good.
It is outside again today, supposed to rain again, (sorry there west coasters, we are getting more of your share and don't need it) so I will see if there are any thin spots or spots I missed. Hoping to find them here, and not on the salt where they really turn bright red. :-P If it needs another coat I have plenty of paint, I use it for the iron fence as well.
dropping in on Max later....
Hey guy, I've been busy as heck, as you're fully aware, trying to get the pieces finished so I can put the lump together. This is the first chance I've had to take a look at your handiwork. Damn nice. Looks like just what we needed to make life easier on the salt. We talked about how hard it was going to be to push fifteen hundred pounds of streamliner up the trailer ramp. The bike probably weighs about the same as Denis' bike, do any of you know if Denis manually pushes his liner in and out of the trailer? or does he have a way to pull it in mechanically? I don't think there'll be a problem taking it out of the trailer--in fact we'll probably have to hold on for dear life, or it'll probably wind up somewhere in the next county. It's
pretty slippery.
I finished up all the pieces on the rear engine. The crankshaft's in, and the cases are buttoned up. If everything goes well, I should have the lump all together in the next four days. Lots of things to hang on those puppies. A standard Vincent engine has more parts than the average bear. I have two--plus a hundred or more parts that are my doins'. Lots and lots of metal shapes, it's certainly a crossword puzzle.
Rocky Robinson, AUTHOR, is doing a column on Black Lightning. Thanks Rocky, for giving my scooter a little press. (And thanks to you too, Stainless.)
A BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION IS IN ORDER FOR TOMORROW, JULY 13, 2008. BLACK LIGHTNING'S REAR ENGINE ROLLED OFF THE ASSEMBLY LINE AT THE WORKS IN STEVENAGE, ENGLAND 60 YEARS AGO--JULY 13, 1948.
In 1996, the liner's first time out, Don Vesco was my rider. We were on the salt shooting the breeze and some fellow walked up and asked, "Why are you using those forty year old push rod motors to try to set a record with?" Don smiled and replied, "The horses that those engines make don't know they'e forty years old."
Max
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Denis has an electric powered dolly that the liner fits on (two posts that slip up into the carbon fiber) once on the dolly they can drive it in or out of the trailer, he then uses a hydraulic hoist on the side of his trailer to set in on the ground when ready. Actually pretty slick.
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Hey guy, I've been busy as heck, as you're fully aware, trying to get the pieces finished so I can put the lump together.
A BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION IS IN ORDER FOR TOMORROW, JULY 13, 2008. BLACK LIGHTNING'S REAR ENGINE ROLLED OFF THE ASSEMBLY LINE AT THE WORKS IN STEVENAGE, ENGLAND 60 YEARS AGO--JULY 13, 1948.
In 1996, the liner's first time out, Don Vesco was my rider. We were on the salt shooting the breeze and some fellow walked up and asked, "Why are you using those forty year old push rod motors to try to set a record with?" Don smiled and replied, "The horses that those engines make don't know they're forty years old."
Max
Happy Birthday 60th yesterday HRD motor, HP is ageless, like a lot of us older folks, we don't realize we aren't 20 any more.
Here is Max's "LUMP", quite a bit of progress over the last couple of days, the cranks are in, the case halves are together, 3 of the cylinders are on. The case joining the 2 motors is a Max special, trans cut off the front motor cases welded together and the gear drives all designed and built by Max.
Here is your last chance to see a piston, Max prefers the big rings and lots of meat to the first land, kind of pushes the oil ring down into the pin boss. don't worry, there is plenty of meat left. This stuff is built to take Nitro, but Max is only planning on using alcohol.... Unless.... :roll:
Compression around 7:1
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Let's start with the cylinders, they are special built for the extra stroke with added water muffs. Working out the water paths to eliminate trapped air was not a small task. Lets look at the front motor. Water hose from the tank goes in the lower inlet of the rear cylinder and on to the lower inlet of the front cylinder via a short hose. Water exits the front cylinder via the upper outlet on a short hose to the rear cylinder upper outlet, joins with the rear cylinder upper outlet water and exits back to the tank.
Here is a closer look at the HiVo chain going from the gear drive joined cranks to the clutch shaft.
Remember back a while when we first saw the cranks, I said they were supported by 4 bearings, 2 on each side, well Max has a 5th outer carrier bearing on the shafts as well to support the big shafts with the case cover. This is the inner race.
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Wondering about the other side? me too, lots to do here. Over the next couple of days Max will be installing and degreeing the cams and drives. Hope I make it over before this gets covered up, Vincent motors are really busy on this side.
Max added 2 extra bolts to the cylinders to help clamp the heads down.
You've probably seen the red spots in the other pictures, sealed bolts that go through a "wet to dry" area. Max has multiple motor vents, crankcase can breath through the roller bearings on the cranks to the gear drive area. They all collect in the frame member/puke can.
I will try to catch more pictures in a couple of days, keeping up with Max when he is motor building is a challenge. :-o
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................I will try to catch more pictures in a couple of days, keeping up with Max when he is motor building is a challenge. :-o ...
Thanks for the effort Stainless and let Max know that we appreciate him being welling to share his build. It is awesome.... the bike, the body, and the engines/supercharger and transmission. I'm in awe,
Sum
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let Max know that we appreciate him being willing to share his build. It is awesome.... the bike, the body, and the engines/supercharger and transmission. I'm in awe,
Sum
Sum, not bad for an old guy working in his garage... :-D a lot of that going around these days, I hear there's a guy in Blanding building a lakester.
I thought we did a good job packaging until I spent some time with Max, he has taken it to a whole new level. You know I like to say if it ain't there it doesn't require any streamlining... Max has a lot of scooter that is 0.00 coefficient of drag 8-)
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Hey racefans, I took a break and ran by Max's today, good thing I did, remember the "busy side" of the Vincent motors that weren't started a couple of days ago, well Max had them done and almost ready to button up.
A little closer look at the rear motor... the Vincents carry the cams high in the motor, the 2 sprockets on the top are the cams, driven by the little crank sprocket on the bottom through the large idler in the middle. Max was checking the alignments when I arrived. There are a series of keyways in the crank sprockets, and the cam sprockets are pressed on to the cams. Max previously dialed the cams, and then welded the sprockets so now all he has to do is put the cams in the right spots and ensure the crank is in the right spot. Then check the numbers. Max's cams are the same profile that Brian Chapman developed for his Mighty Mouse 500cc blown single and his 1000cc Blown Twin Super Mouse drag race motors. After Brian gave the go ahead to use his cam design, Gary Robinson ground the proprietary profile for Max. Really short push rods go in these motors.
Here's the other side, buttoned up. The heavy duty primary case supports the outboard crank bearings. Yep that's one of the 3 breathers for the crankcase above the rear motor crankshaft. The rear motor crankshaft has the blower belt drive pulley on it. It is larger than the pulley I showed you on the blower, overdrives the blower 1.63:1. The clutch installs on that empty rear shaft.
Kinda well thought out, more to show tomorrow, or should I say later this morning....
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OK, back to the valve train... my darn camera's x-ray mode is not working, so here is what you can't see. The cam followers are pivot arms, this allows radical cam profiles and fast actuation as well as a very light valve train. The pushrods run up to the rocker arms in the head. The rockers are forked and work in the middle of the valve, not above the spring. The valves have stepped diameter stems and upper and lower valve guides.
Disclaimer: This is a cutaway of the A motor, I couldn't find another... Max has a B motor in the rear and a C in the front. The valve train concept is the same, but not exactly... it is like the same thing only different.... :roll:
Disregard any dirt you see, Max hasn't started cleaning up the heads but I wanted everyone to see a few things before they disappear. The retainers are titanium, the keepers are hard to see here, but they are a wire ring clip that goes in a small groove in the valve.
The valves are a little larger than stock. 2 inch intakes and 1 7/8 exhaust. Dual plugs, but that part will be in one of the next posts.
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The heads.... back in the day, the stock Vincent had an intake port that was about 1 1/16 inch, high performance mods made them 1 1/8... Max's are 1.5 inch. The old big exhaust nut has been replaced with a 2 bolt flange. OK, these are not your Dads old Vincent heads (unless you are little Max). They are Dual plug specials cast by D V Godden to Max's specs using the same alloy that Cosworth used in their racing heads. There is extra meat down the center between the fin sets and the plugs to add strength.
The 4 bolts are standard, the extra 2 help with clamping.
The exhaust port has been given the D treatment for better flow.
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Max is running a blown alcohol motor. A couple of days ago I corrected the compression to 7:1 several posts back. This is the the gasketless sealing system for the heads. It is just like a big O-ring. The raised portion of the Max Spec'd LA Sleeve made cylinder mates to the recessed portion of the head with a couple of thousandths to spare. Then the aluminum head is torqued to the iron sleeve. It can't leak.
Here is the head recess.
Want to see Max's secret porting.... the exhaust side.... it is really hard to take a picture down inside a hole... :-o Now you know I'm not a painter and not a photographer... :| Trouble getting this to post
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I have finally found you. I have a question for you sir, your user name. Did you know my dad? His name is Ted DeTar and raced from the 60's. He was known in 1965 as the "Kansas Badman",
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Why are you using my dad's race name? My family wants to know, Steve DeTar
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I have finally found you. I have a question for you sir, your user name. Did you know my dad? His name is Ted DeTar and raced from the 60's. He was known in 1965 as the "Kansas Badman",
Mr. DeTar, to answer your question, no, I've never heard of your dad.
During the 60's, the time period you say your dad was at the drag strip, I was making a career in the United States Navy (22 1/2 years). I left Kansas when I was 17 years old, and only returned to live here 8 years ago. In the sixties I served on the USS Mataco ATF-86, the USS Cree ATF-84, and the USS Apache ATF-67. Most of my time was spent in the Far East, Japan, Korea, Guam, Philipines, Singapore, Tiawan, and other Pacific countries and islands. During this time I also spent time in Australia.
I wasn't even in Kansas, nor did I ever read about or hear of your dad in any periodical.
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Interesting... So, just for the heck of it, I went online and searched around to see if there was a historical-era "Kansas Badman". I found a bunch of Mr. DeTar, a few Max Lambsky, and even Print Olive, a Texan-turned-Kansas cattleman from the nineteenth century. But no definitive "Kansas Badman", such as there is a real "Seldom Seen Slim".
So wherever Max and Mr. DeTar got the name -- it wasn't from someone that left an easily-discovered trail through history.
My two cents worth for this morning.
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Why are you using my dad's race name? My family wants to know, Steve DeTar
Mr. DeTar, I am not using your dad's race name.
I will explain. First, as I said before, I never heard of your dad, or him being called "The Kansas Bad Man" until I woke up this morning and turned on this site.
I assume that your dad received this handle from others, or did he create the name himself?
Other people gave me the handle "Mad Max, The Kansas Bad Man". To be specific. In the late 70's I was stationed at Pearl Harbor. I had been working on a motorcycle for several years, which was called "The Quarter Hemi". (For particulars on this motorcycle go to www.vincentstreamliner.com and click on the button at the top of the home page, "Racers".
While running this motorcycle at the Hawaii International Raceway (a quarter mile drag strip), the announcer, who noted on my paperwork that I was from Kansas, loudly proclaimed over the speaker system, "Coming to the line is The Kansas Bad Man on his Quarter Hemi". It stuck, and it's been that ever since.
P.S. If you do a search of "bad men of the old west" you'll find 24,900,000 references. Just for the sake of those who might not know, Kansas was a major part of the old west, cowboys, indians, buffalo and bad men abounded.
I was born here, so I guess that makes me a Kansan. "Bad Man" is a common moniker among go fast racers.
Yours for the LSR,
Mad Max
The Kansas Bad Man
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I have finally found you. I have a question for you sir, your user name. Did you know my dad? His name is Ted DeTar and raced from the 60's. He was known in 1965 as the "Kansas Badman",
Mr. DeTar, I'm not all that hard to find. We both live in Wichita, and I'm in the phone book.
I appreciate that you didn't intentionally post any insulting, false, DEFAMATORY, inaccurate, or harassing remarks, because as we all know, that would have been against the forum rules.
Yours for the LSR,
Mad Max
The Kansas Bad Man
P.S.
The Bub Meet is coming up, and I've already spent too much time that I don't have to spare on this morning surprise.
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Why are you using my dad's race name? My family wants to know, Steve DeTar
Seems to me that you are a little impatient in that you waited only five minutes for an answer and then re-posted? Common at least respond to his answers, oh yeah welcome to the site. :-D
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Hey I can live with two or more "Kansas Bad Men" as long as they don't come to Utah, well except for the salt that is. I'm currently applying for the title of "Utah Bad Man" as I think some of the locals think I might deserve it 8-),
Sum
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Controversy and drama... I've even been called the Kansas Bad Man when I was in the military, had nothing to do with racing.... Also called Rusty, Luckily Stainless stuck... :-D
Steve, welcome to the site. You might have noticed I edited your first post. Somehow you first post was lost in the middle of a quote. Sometimes they appear at the end inside the quote, but yours was in the middle, so I cleaned it up a little so we could find your post.
Again, welcome, if you read the entire post and look at Max's site, you will find he is a "Kansas Bad Man" as well.
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Max's Lump is growing, the heads are on, motor mounts are installed, starting to look like a very cool LSR motor.
Max sets spring pressure over the valves at 130 Lbs, the Vincent valve train is very light, massaged stockers with 85 lbs could rev to 6000 in race trim, Max hopes he does not need to rev higher than that, but he can.
Mad Max, the Kansas Badman, is the man behind this engineering marvel...., oh sure, several old English guys started the concept, they made 50 HP V-twins, this continuation pairs those with a bit of Yankee ingenuity to make well over 500 HP... 8-)
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My dog's name is Stainless. Why are you using her name?
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My dog's name is Stainless. Why are you using her name?
Dave, please PM me your dog's cell phone number so she and I can discuss this issue and come to some resolution. I'm sure I've never met your dog, I would remember (I think).... :roll:
In the mean time, Stainless Mann please accept a treat (Dave will supply) as a peace offering so you don't bite my head off when we meet... :-D
BTW race fans, we may be putting the Lump in the liner today.... :-o
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Dropped in on Max about 1 to see if the motor was ready... almost just a few things to do yet, the oil lines and banjos were on the front motor.... just a little longer folks 8-)
The jug to jug water lines are installed
Max and Little Max putting it together...
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Stainless, do you know the what kind of tires Max is using on the liner as well as there size??
Scott
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About an hour and a half later, the motor is ready... :-) Oh crap.. :x the tach drive still needs to go on the front motor. It is the stand alone ignition system I told you about way back when we looked at the automotive coil installation. It just runs the tach...
While we get that on, lets look at the back motor
And the front... the Vincents are really great looking motors, if these weren't so mean, I'd probably call them pretty.
Take a good look, you probably will never see another joined set of old Vincents, most folks would use them and build a pair of $70K show bikes... :roll: hummmm, you know, this is really nice for an old salt racer... 8-)
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....................... the Vincents are really great looking motors, if these weren't so mean, I'd probably call them pretty................
Functional and beautiful...........I can't think of a better looking bike motor. I wonder if Max and Burt might be related somehow :-). You can't help, but be rooting for him and what he has accomplished.
Great stuff Stainless,
Sum
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Scott, back on page 4 is the rear
... 700 X 18 Firestone, and in darn great shape. Yes Virginia, this is the real deal Bonneville 600MPH car tire, but it has a great shape for a bike tire. Yes, in the picture it looks like a raised flat shape, but it is rounded, see the other picture. The fender I showed you a while back goes over it to reduce the salt in the bike. This tire is really old, but you would never know by looking at it. Original owner, Art Arfons, this was one of his Jet Car lightly used or spare tires. Next, Al Teague, that is where Max got them, yes I said them, Max has 4. Another that looks like this and a couple that have seen a little harder use, all speed tested.
I guess I bypassed the front tire size, I will have to ask Max, it is a Goodyear Eagle Racing tire, same size that Denis is using I think. I'll check or Max will post it tomorrow, He is an early riser, and already fast asleep... :wink:
Sum, Yep, this could be his year
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OK, now the motor is finished and ready to install in the bike, of course Max touched up the paint on the cases mentioning that Don Vesco told him Krylon looks lots better than corrosion... :wink: We always called that canodizing :roll:
note to self... motor painting tip, not all black paints are the same color, a little clear after makes them all blend.
Other side, also ready to go, Max was starting his 10th hour of his day, hoping the motor would have been in the bike a couple of hours ago, but we all know all the little things take a lot of time, and must be done right.
We pulled the floor crane into the garage, took the work table out to make a little room, picked the motor up off of the bench and set on a pair of HF furniture dolly's and rolled it over by the bike. Then we put the bike on the ground, leaning on its skids, and used one of the bike lifting chain-falls to pick up the motors. As with everything on this scooter, spare room has been left on the drawing board. The front of the motor pokes into a space at an angle, moves forward a little more, then swing the back in a little and stop. In this picture you see Max fitting the front motor exhaust pipes while he still can :-o
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Memory test time for Max... :? which pipe goes where, it was a 50-50 shot which one went where, not good enough odds for Max, he and Max Jr worked it out before we continued.
Oh yea, did I mention that a couple of the blower to intake tubes have to go in now also.
Because they wont fit down here when the motor is in place!
Now is probably a good time to mention that this was my first time on this motor installation. You see those straps we are lifting with, wanna guess if they can be removed when the motor is installed... :cry: Obviously Max was not watching his helper close enough.... soooo out it came changed to lifting on the top motor tie piece in the center. Hey, the second time is always easier... :-D
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EEEHAW, the motors are in, the tubes that were laid in can be installed in their proper places.
The other side. All that is left it to hook up about a hundred things, install a hundred more and this puppy will be ready to fire up.
the top view, everything is here is a little tight. There a actually a couple of small spaces that you can see through the sides, of course those will be filled with the things that are next to install.
Had a really fun day, learned a few tricks, learned a little about Vincent motors, used Wentworth tools (been a few years). You gotta love a 3/8 wrench that looks like it is about 11/16... what was that guy thinking :roll:
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Stainless - Thank you so very much for sharing this build with us!
Scott
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Scott, Max uses a Goodyear D211 21 X 5 15 inch Bonneville tire. He shaved the edges for a closer to MC profile
Talked to Max, he's been hooking up stuff since before the crows got up to urinate.... :roll:
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Scott, Max uses a Goodyear D211 21 X 5 15 inch Bonneville tire. He shaved the edges for a closer to MC profile
Talked to Max, he's been hooking up stuff since before the crows got up to urinate.... :roll:
Thank you very much for the info Stainless.......looking forward to the next batch of photos.
Scott
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scott what size tires are you looking for and what speed rating willie
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scott what size tires are you looking for and what speed rating willie
Sent you a pm so I don't clutter up this thread.
Scott
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IVE NEVER GOTTEN INTO FORUMS/POSTING ETC., (AND REALLY DONT KNOW HOW TO DO IT) BUT SINCE THIS ONE HAS SOME WICHITA GUYS & RACERS ( OR WANTABYS) ID LIKE TO TRY MY HAND AT IT AND MAYBE CONTRIBUTE SOME WORDS OF WISDOM FROM AN OLD WICHITA RACER !AND SOME HISTORY ABOUT RACEING IN AND AROUND WICHITA AND THE REST OF THE COUNTRY!!! FIRST COMMENT: DRAG RACEING, TED DETAR WAS A TRUE DRAG RACER AND ENGINE BUILDER, A NATURALY GIFTED DEVELOPER AND INOVATER WITH LIMITED EDUCATION, HE MASTERD BOTH GASOLINE & FUEL, CARBERATORS INJECTORS & BLOWERS. HE OUT RAN MANY OF THE COUNTRYS BIGEST NAMES IN DRAG RACEING, DESIGNED & BUILT ENGINES FOR RACERS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND FOR CHYRSLER CORP., HE RE WROTE THE BOOK ON THE COMBINATION FOR BLOWN FUEL ENGINES// FUNNY CARS, AND A LOT MORE, HE WAS ORIGINALY FROM COFFEYVILLE KS, BUT HE WAS TRULY WICHITA'S KING OF THE HILL IN THE SPORT OF DRAG RACEING, BUT MOST OF ALL A REALLY NICE GUY WHO HELPED RICH & POOR RACERS GO FAST FOR NOTHING OUT OF HIS LOVE FOR THE SPORT. AND MAKE NO MISTAKE "TED DETAR" WAS "THE KANSAS BAD MAN". HE DIED TRYING TO STRAIGHTEN OUT THE SUSPENSION OF AN OVER POWERD 57 CHEVY SO IT WOULD GO STRAIGHT,AND NOT KILL THE YOUNG OWNER/DRIVER, HE TEST DROVE IT AND IT GOT HIM IN A FREAK ACCIDENT. HE DIED DOING WHAT HE LOVED MOST IN LIFE, DRAG RACE!!
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Sounds like Ted was quite a guy. I never saw anyone on this website write anything bad about him. I believe Max has explained himself as well as he needs to. The name "Kansas Bad Man" has been his handle almost as long as it was Mr. DeTar's. So why is this an issue? Max isn't trying to infringe on Mr. DeTar's legacy. He races motorcycles, not cars. He also part of the landspeed fraternity, not drag racing. This should not be an issue for anyone. If you have a problem with Max using the moniker, you should direct your problems to him directly instead of trying to hard time him on a public forum. Just my .02......
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I can't believe this. Steve Detar implied that I have stolen his dad's handle. I replied extensively, explaining so that Steve would know that I didn't steal his dad's handle, I told him that I had never even heard of his dad until Steve posted on landracing.com.
By continuation to post on this subject you are implying that I lied as well.
You are calling me a thief and a liar before thousands of people by bringing it to this forum.
You could have simply picked up the phone or come over to discuss this face to face, as we all live in Wichita. Therefore you intended to malign my reputation publicly.
Be careful what you say.
All landracers are "wannabees", as their only goal is to always go faster.
Mad Max
The Kansas Bad Man
P.S
More than likely Ted and I would have been great friends if we'd have known each other. He would have probably been in my garage working alongside me helping me prepare for the upcoming Bub Meet, instead of trying to get me distracted from the one dream of my life, which may come to pass in just a few weeks. Got to go now, don't have time for this.
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Steve and 2fast, people don't give themselves nicknames, someone else does and they stick. Read Max's website
http://www.vincentstreamliner.com/
2fast, Ted probably would be over helping Max, and the Kansas Bad Men would be friends... telling each other how they were nicknamed. Feel free to to introduce yourself in the introduction forum, but please take the caps off. If you are interested in LSR, read through the site, there is a lot of information.
The wannabes that landspeed race are a different breed, and every gearhead that's worth his salt (pun intended) has dreamed of racing on the Bonneville Salt Flats. Some of us have drag racing pasts, some do not. Come to the Salt, you will be welcomed by all, we are that type of a group. You will find a wide variety of folks, some that use very little engines to go fast, and some that use very large engines to go faster, all in a variety of vehicles. The discussion of who should be the Kansas Bad Man is not relevant to the topic and that part of the distraction is over. We are chronicling how Max is putting his bike together and getting ready to challenge the World Land Speed Record for sidecar motorcycles, and then challenging the ultimate motorcycle record of 350 MPH.
Welcome and have a great day
Hope to see ya on the salt 8-)
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Max has almost everything done, a couple of major things left to do. Last year during his last run, the clutch fried. I suspect it was caused by the fact he only had high gear left in the tranny and his liner is not pushed or towed. While that run netted him 250 MPH on the short course, it also left him with a smoked clutch. Max uses a 3 disc slider, yep designed and built in his garage.
The carnage... :-P
And the new discs. The discs are lined with the same material used on Airbus aircraft brake systems... Max just picked these up... put a big burn mark in his wallet... :|
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OK, we will start looking at this bike. On the left, the Rons Racing 800 HP fuel pump supplies the mechanical fuel injection system with alcohol. The external 24 volt starter hooks in the red anodized holder and spins the motors via the big nut on the crankshaft. Timing is accomplished with the degree wheel. The ignition trigger aft and above and the second crankshaft with the blower drive.
Here is one of the blower drive
Jumping to the other side of the motor, the front motor exhaust pipes are the ones we laid in while installing the engines, they exit low on the left side. The aft motor pipes exit low on the right. Max has them exiting low in case of a motor failure, the thrust from the remaining motor is pushing low on the side of bike, minimizing the effect on handling. The wrapped pipe is actually double wrapped and then heat taped. In the past, that pipe has caused the paint to bubble a little. Yes it is that close, everything is that close... The other big job Max has to do is modify the engine to transmission chain cover. The new tranny has a larger pilot so Max needs to modify the outboard bearing support for the shaft. A large HiVo chain like the one from the engines to clutch is used from clutch to transmission.
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OK, the body is not on yet, and Max may need to pull his jeans up a little to do this body on, but Max is proud that he can still throw a leg over this scooter and stand it up, while standing flat-footed on the floor.
The long and skinny of it... the story my grandson was hearing when he asked Max how long he has been building this bike. Max has been at this a long time, but I think his best line was explaining that you don't get beautiful butterflies immediately... you get an ugly worm or two along the way. I think Max has hit his butterfly.
OK, while we're showing kid pictures this is how you make them happy.... he is 5'6'', 155 lbs, fits pretty good, of course he is not wearing the firesuit and helmet... Max's current riders are only slightly larger. I'm not trying to get in there unless there is a tow truck handy.
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If you look closely, you can spot little bits of daylight here and there. The hundred or so things have been hooked up, the 2 big jobs are in progress, and Max plans to fire it up Sunday... I plan to be there... I'm almost certain it will be a religious experience :-D
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Max plans to fire it up Sunday... I plan to be there... I'm almost certain it will be a religious experience :-D
Does your digital camera have a "movie" mode?
Mike
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OK, while we're showing kid pictures this is how you make them happy.... he is 5'6'', 155 lbs, fits pretty good, of course he is not wearing the firesuit and helmet... Max's current riders are only slightly larger. I'm not trying to get in there unless there is a tow truck handy.
Is Don Angel (I think Angel is his last name) driving/riding this year?
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Mike, yes, going to try my hand at utube before Sunday
Scott, yes Don Angel and Hartmut Weidelich will share pilot duties.
Noticed something I didn't show or at least describe. Max has a service port for the C02 so he can refill the bottle in place.
Also a better shot of the trans input shaft as well as the intake tubes connected to the blower, and just a touch of daylight shows through, almost enough to get your hand in to tighten up the bolts.
or this view, hard to pick pictures that really show what has been done here, you guys have to see this scooter in person.
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Scott, yes Don Angel and Hartmut Weidelich will share pilot duties.
Don is a good guy I have spoke with him on a few ocassions at our club meetings.
Scott
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I figure every one on Max's crew is a "good guy" and like Max are interesting to talk to. If I am not too engaged with another bike out there, I hope to get to know them. I've watched them all in a thrash, not bad for a bunch of old guys... :-D
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Checked on Max today, he was working on ignition timing and one of his major jobs was done. The clutch is in and ready to go. Still has to make the bearing support for the trans input shaft, plans to do that tomorrow and still planning to fire it up on Sunday. In fact he was headed to buy alcohol when I left.
He has oil in the primary, no pool on the floor... :-D Oil in the tank for the motors, no pool on the floor, :-D the water tanks get the next leak check as he continues getting ready.
Here are some pictures of the installed clutch, almost couldn't remember how I got the camera in there for the last one to get it back out, but the shot was worth it :wink:
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Checked on Max today, he was working on ignition timing and one of his major jobs was done. The clutch is in and ready to go. Still has to make the bearing support for the trans input shaft, plans to do that tomorrow and still planning to fire it up on Sunday. In fact he was headed to buy alcohol when I left.
He has oil in the primary, no pool on the floor... :-D Oil in the tank for the motors, no pool on the floor, :-D the water tanks get the next leak check as he continues getting ready.
Here are some pictures of the installed clutch, almost couldn't remember how I got the camera in there for the last one to get it back out, but the shot was worth it :wink:
Max is my New Hero :-o!
AWESOME WORK IF I DO SAY SO MYSELF :mrgreen:!
I thought I put allot of time and $ffort into my Bike :oops:?
Thank You for Sharing it with US 8-)
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Max probably hasn't put more than 8-10 hours a day in on the bike since he got home from the Bub meet last year. He designs and builds most of the parts. Almost everything that he didn't build himself has been noted as to who did in this thread.
Pretty Awesome. :-o (for an old guy working in his garage)
The design and engineering are there, it just needs to all work and stay together... that's how you set records... ask anyone
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Is it Sunday yet? Well Max called a couple of hours ago and said "I'm ready to start the scooter, can you come over and help" His son Max was there when I got there, we spun the motors a little to get the fuel primed, I took a little video of the first attempt to start the bike, wow, it started right up. What a fire breathing monster it is. We found a little fuel leak and shut it down. Fixed the leak right after we could get our eyes to stop watering and enough air in the garage to breathe again. You might be able to tell, it was deafening, even for an old deaf guy that spent to much time around jets. It is a little slow at first, in time I will figure out how to edit, but as soon as u-tube has it processed, I am adding the link and hitting submit.
here ya go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94rgogvdxgM
More later tonight or tomorrow
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I love it! Thank you very much!
Mike
P.S. I don't see a need to edit it.
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Great video! I like it when Max has time to get his coffee while everyone else bails, then goes back for one more check. I know how much your eyes sting.
Pete
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Thanks Stainless and I agree don't try and edit it. I've heard it run in the pits and it is a real treat,
Sum
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Yes, it was a moving experience, we were all so happy you couldn't find a dry eye in the place... :roll:
OK so a few more pictures. This side is done, last part on was the ignition cover. Our fuel leak was a line on the fuel pump, just needed tightened, it was cracked loose earlier to help prime the pump. So far, that is it, no oil, fuel, or water leaks.
Max needed a new start cart, the old wagon was on its last legs (maybe wheels)... so he picked this one up at harbor freight... OK, it was just their big 2 wheeler, and a few parts were welded on.
The noise drew a few folks from the neighborhood.... Most common question "WTF is this thing?" Most common comments, "that thing is really loud" and "you guys gotta be crazy"
More to come...
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After the air cleared, we looked the scooter over, and then fired it up again for another check. I was trying to figure out where all the junk in the air was coming from (no, not the eye burning stuff, I knew where it was coming from). When Max wicks the throttle a little, the exhaust generates an ill wind that stirs the dust in every corner, not to mention the garage shakes and stuff falls from the ceiling, the lights, your eyes... :cry:
Max's garage is smaller than is looks as soon as those motors are started. I had to get out while I could still find my way. Max obviously is an old hand at living in an oxygen deprived eye burning atmosphere (must be those years of Navy training or nitro-bike racing)
Gave up waiting on utube processing last night :|
So here is the second run on the motors, enjoy the fun, I KNOW I DID!!! WOOHOOO!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTYT4NP3kiQ
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After the air cleared, we looked the scooter over, and then fired it up again for another check. I was trying to figure out where all the junk in the air was coming from (no, not the eye burning stuff, I knew where it was coming from). When Max wicks the throttle a little, the exhaust generates an ill wind that stirs the dust in every corner, not to mention the garage shakes and stuff falls from the ceiling, the lights, your eyes... :cry:
Max's garage is smaller than is looks as soon as those motors are started. I had to get out while I could still find my way. Max obviously is an old hand at living in an oxygen deprived eye burning atmosphere (must be those years of Navy training or nitro-bike racing)
Gave up waiting on utube processing last night :|
So here is the second run on the motors, enjoy the fun, I KNOW I DID!!! WOOHOOO!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTYT4NP3kiQ
:?
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Stainless, I thank you very much for helping us all keep up with what Max and his crew (that includes you, you know) are doing on the bike. The videos were fun -- so much that I was able to foresee the same (basic) routine on the line, and ooh the chills, the excitement, the fun.
Thanks...
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Inspiring work.
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This is a great story and Max looks to be a very talented individual. The project looks incredible!
Stainless- thank you very much for bring this story to this site.
Mike Reichen
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Stainless, I thank you very much for helping us all keep up with what Max and his crew (that includes you, you know) are doing on the bike. The videos were fun -- so much that I was able to foresee the same (basic) routine on the line, and ooh the chills, the excitement, the fun.
Thanks...
Don't I wish, Seldom. In actual fact there is no Crew through the year here in Wichita. I work alone on the design and build of the streamliner. However, Stainless just recently helped the project with a quite a bit of labor on building the salt A-frame, the fab work required on the new starter cart, and a couple of other things to make life easier on the salt.
Also my son, Max Re', has just recently been coming over for a few hours once a week after he gets off work, to help with some of the needed manual labor. He'll also be helping me drive the long hours from Wichita to Bonneville. That's when he becomes part of the Salt Pit Crew. I appreciate both of these two guys and what they're doing to help the 2008 effort.
After I get the liner to the salt--that's when my Pit Crew shows up. They come from Canada, Germany, Spain, Australia, England, and from the U.S.--California, Oregan, Washington, and other states to spend the five or six days helping Black Lightning do her thing. This group of guys all volunteer, pay all their own expenses, and in many cases financially support the project as well.
I couldn't do it without them.
Max
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Best of luck, Max.............see you in Sept................
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Racefans, when you watch those videos, you can't see that Max is barely touching the throttle to rev the motors, just a quick crack sends them to the 5500 RPM you heard. Oh, the churning noise on the video before starting is the water pumps for the cylinder muffs. As with many of you, I can't wait to hear this thing at full song during the Bub event.
Max has done an incredible job on this scooter, and he deserves all the credit. I am just trying to show y'all how to get to "incredible". It has been and will continue to be a privilege to work with Max and get the inside story (that I get to share with you) as he gets the bike ready to run. I will probably get by there tomorrow to see what he is up to. I know he has a chain mister to build and install as well as a few other things... :wink:
Gotta go work on my scooter for speedweek, see ya on the salt 8-)
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P.S.
I want to thank you Stainless, for your excellent and continual updates of the liner on this site. I'm hoping you'll be part of the Vincent streamliner Pit Crew at the Bub Meet. You're a talented craftsman, quite knowledgeable about landracing, and would be a great asset to the team.
Thanks, my friend.
Max
P.S.S.
Also appreciate the encouragement from those who have taken the time to post on this thread.
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Hi all. Just caught up with the news on the site. Absolutely brilliant! Well done Max. Makes us very proud to be Vincent owners with a common bond. Looking forward to seeing you and the liner at Bonneville. Good luck and best wishes from the VOC and the sidecar section. Cheers, Dave Johnson
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Well by the view of the second video, You can tell who the real men were and who the pussy was... Look again at the first to bail out.... And a hint,,, he was the only one wearing those girly ear muff's...
Good video's stainless and Max I hope you reach your goals this year.
JonA
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Great job, the video sounds awesome. Looking forward to see and hear it in person. Keep up the good work.
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Dropped in on Max today, caught him working again.... The clutch mister and the cylinder head misters are made and installed.
First a couple of pictures of the clutch mister...
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And then 2 pictures the cylinder head misters on the exhaust side of the heads... the ones on the front engine are too hard to see...
Then the manifold for the front cylinder misters....but there is a story for the last picture... it is the distribution manifold for the rear cylinder mister :-D
Years ago Max was racing a Vincent and had a part that broke loose on the bike, he used a little wire to hold the part on, the bike made a 168 MPH pass, the fastest it had ever gone. Now Max is not superstitious, but.... :| every bike he has built and raced since has one part that is wired on. Sure it could have been attached with a bracket, or even a plastic tie, but Max likes to use a little wire now and then... :roll:
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Waiting for processing on u-tube again, it seems a little slow, but I am new to u-tube and frequent the "worlds fastest website"
OK, they finally got done... Sorry guys, we didn't run the deafening tearjerkers... but I did get Max to show off his scooter a little. The first is the Skid Test, I accidentally caught us pre-checking, so I threw it on the start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH8RGMPixZk
The next is the parachute test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5N4cPUvlwY
Then the water spray system test with a quick switchology lesson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQPa7VQ6pY
Most of you have not met Speedo... WAIT...WAIT, this is not Max in a speedo, :-o :-P this is the Black Lightning's Mascot. :-D Here is his intro...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PLwiQ7dTns
I even got Speedo to pose for a quick photo op....
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Thanks for the videos, it was cool to see everything work.
A few questions:
1. How much water do the liner hold to keep everything cool?
2. Why spray the front tire and is the cooling just to save the tire?
3. Do you cool the rear tire?
Scott
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Thanks for the videos, it was cool to see everything work.
A few questions:
1. How much water do the liner hold to keep everything cool?
2. Why spray the front tire and is the cooling just to save the tire?
3. Do you cool the rear tire?
Scott
Scott, First the front tire cooling. The cooling water hopefully will help in keeping the 21" tall Goodyear from chunking. I'm not sure, but I think Denis threw some rubber off of his at 354 mph. Sam only had one tire left, and he's the one who first sprayed water on the tire to cool it down. The Vincent streamliner has the aero, the horsepower, (573 hp, 385 ft. lbs. of torque, dyno test) and a good traction coefficient; with that combo it should nudge 400 mph. The front tire is the weakest link to achieve that speed.
Max
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Thanks for the videos, it was cool to see everything work.
A few questions:
1. How much water do the liner hold to keep everything cool?
2. Why spray the front tire and is the cooling just to save the tire?
3. Do you cool the rear tire?
Scott
Black Lightning has 4 separate water tanks. The front tire cooling tank is a little over one gallon. The cylinder head spray cooling system has a little over two and one half gallon tank. The cooling tank for the clutch and chain has a capacity of one and three quarter gallons. All of these tanks are obviously total loss. The cylinder muff cooling tank is five and one half gallons. This tank's BTU can be changed by adding ice if required.
Max
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Thanks for the videos, it was cool to see everything work.
A few questions:
1. How much water do the liner hold to keep everything cool?
2. Why spray the front tire and is the cooling just to save the tire?
3. Do you cool the rear tire?
Scott
I don't cool the rear tire, not even close to being necessary. The 700X18 Firestone will go 435 mph, no problem. Same tire Al Teague ran.
Max
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And then 2 pictures the cylinder head misters on the exhaust side of the heads... the ones on the front engine are too hard to see...
Then the manifold for the front cylinder misters....but there is a story for the last picture... it is the distribution manifold for the rear cylinder mister :-D
Years ago Max was racing a Vincent and had a part that broke loose on the bike, he used a little wire to hold the part on, the bike made a 168 MPH pass, the fastest it had ever gone. Now Max is not superstitious, but.... :| every bike he has built and raced since has one part that is wired on. Sure it could have been attached with a bracket, or even a plastic tie, but Max likes to use a little wire now and then... :roll:
Correction of the above speed. It was 162.36 mph.
Max
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Years ago Max was racing a Vincent and had a part that broke loose on the bike, he used a little wire to hold the part on, the bike made a 168 MPH pass, the fastest it had ever gone. Now Max is not superstitious, but.... :| every bike he has built and raced since has one part that is wired on. Sure it could have been attached with a bracket, or even a plastic tie, but Max likes to use a little wire now and then... :roll:
Correction of the above speed. It was 162.36 mph.
Max
Well, y'all know that dang Stainless is prone to exaggeration.... :roll: I'll bet if Max had wired on 2 parts it would have gone 168 :wink:
See ya Friday Max
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Stopped by to see Max today, darn guy was still working. the first thing I noticed was the scooter was covered up, with brown paper... Max's Machine Shop had been converted to Max's Body Shop... :|
Max was working on the cockpit body section, he had changed the body sections and had to blend a little, then the finished part needed some fiberglass reinforcement on the edges.
These are body lifters... Max needed something that would make it easier to hold the body up while the guys installed fasteners. Yes that part of the body is not that heavy, maybe 35 lbs, but it is awkward. Mad Max drew a sketch and they appeared, I guess we will see if they work...
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Well, the body shop was turned back into the machine shop over the weekend. Max took the last piece of body to the painter late Friday and was headed over to check on it when I left his garage. Yes, Max usually paints it, but he is running out of time, and the cottonwood is still flying around his paint booth :roll:
But back to work, here are a couple of shots of the Clutch to transmission HyVo chain cover (primary, well kinda) that Max finished this weekend. Remember that was the last major job I mentioned Max had left. He needed to accommodate the larger pilot shaft bearing on the M21 input shaft. The red anodized parts are where the outboard carrier bearings are located.
While we were there, Trey (my grandson) and I helped Max bleed the brakes. It was slow going until Max mentioned there were 4 bleeders on the big Wilwood brakes. It's hard to get good help.... :| But the beast has brakes now. Getting closer all the time. 8-)
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nice brightwork, great bike. good luck .
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Max Lambky and his Vincent streamliner are featured this week on SALT ADDICTION. This was a fun article to put together. Max is such a colorful person with tons of racing history. Here's the link: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=6896&Page=1
Hope you enjoy...
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l24/Rockjok6/Lambky2.jpg)
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Outstanding article Rocky, you were able to capture enough history to show us the past mixed with the possibility of an exciting future at the Bub. I hope we see another streamliner shootout this year, it will be great.
While we are in the Black Lightning assembly thread, I will just show you what Max was up to the last couple of days. He has been busy safety wiring and preparing to get his body back from the painter... it was due to be finished Monday... but it is a painter... and it is only Wednesday....
Max was testing the SSLD when I arrived, the scooter is hanging in the air.
One of the things you should notice is the body mounting strips are also installed...
This angle gives an idea of how close the body will be mounted to the internals.... :-o
We started discussing putting shade on the SSLD, an obvious previously overlooked design flaw now that the shade he planned to have on the side of his trailer was damaged prior to installation. The fun always starts in the last couple of weeks.
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Awsome thread Stainless, wish I could be there. :-(
Btw, Travis is all set.
Larry
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Max Lambky and his Vincent streamliner are featured this week on SALT ADDICTION. This was a fun article to put together. Max is such a colorful person with tons of racing history. Here's the link: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=6896&Page=1
Hope you enjoy...
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l24/Rockjok6/Lambky2.jpg)
Hey Rocky,
I really appreciate your taking the time from your busy schedule to write an excellent article about a liner that hasn't yet laid down the heavy numbers. You've done me the honor of mentioning the Vincent streamliner among the SUPERFAST streamliner contenders, but in my opinion you riders are the real heros--Rocky Robinson, Chris Carr, Sam Wheeler, Don Angel and
Hartmut Weidelich. Best to all, and have a safe ride at the Bub. See ya there.
Max
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Outstanding article Rocky, you were able to capture enough history to show us the past mixed with the possibility of an exciting future at the Bub. I hope we see another streamliner shootout this year, it will be great.
While we are in the Black Lightning assembly thread, I will just show you what Max was up to the last couple of days. He has been busy safety wiring and preparing to get his body back from the painter... it was due to be finished Monday... but it is a painter... and it is only Wednesday....
Max was testing the SSLD when I arrived, the scooter is hanging in the air.
One of the things you should notice is the body mounting strips are also installed...
This angle gives an idea of how close the body will be mounted to the internals.... :-o
We started discussing putting shade on the SSLD, an obvious previously overlooked design flaw now that the shade he planned to have on the side of his trailer was damaged prior to installation. The fun always starts in the last couple of weeks.
Stainless,
In this camp you have again voided the Murphy Law, this time coming to Black Lightning's rescue on an awning problem. Less than three weeks to go--I'm glad you're here. Thanks.
Max
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Well Max picked up his trailer, we rolled the SSLD in, hey it even fit! There was room for Max's tool box.
Max had a bit of a paint disaster on the liner, seems the guy was not familiar with techniques to paint color and clear... in other words, he (expletive deleted) it up.... :x Max Jr has been over there working for 2 days to rescue the paint job. Max is planing to pick it up Sunday, and hopefully get it on the scooter.
Here are a couple of pictures of the trailer, SSLD and toolbox.
And a picture of the sidecar frame in Max's paint booth... :-o :-D (yes those are leaves, it is outside his garage)
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Max and I went to the painter today and picked up the pieces. They were mostly saved by Max Jr, still not as nice as Max wanted them, but they look pretty good. (especially compared to my paint job) :| The first trip we grabbed the cockpit cover and the bellypan. Max didn't want the overspray on his white inside, he joked that likes them white inside so you can see which parts came out easier... :roll:
Max had already pulled the front wheel off so we could install the cockpit cover.
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We put the bellypan on, fit like a glove, you know, like the one OJ tried on, a little tight... :-o
Max rebuilt the body this year because he narrowed it a couple of inches. The cockpit required a couple of whacks to get moved back.
Then we went back and got the other parts....
OK, the last picture gets me in trouble with Patti... notice everything is clear except she is a little blurry? She was moving fast to get out of the picture but I caught her anyway. Hi Patti :-D
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Speedo had to check out the hack.... he liked the fit and feel.
And then Patti picked up my camera and caught me working... ruining my reputation :| I was screwing on instead of screwing off.... :roll:
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Of course if you show up at Max's, he will put you to work, he is an excellent supervisor... :roll: Max's friend Jerry Wilson came by to see what was happening and got put to work installing body parts. Jerry's the guy that dynoed the scooter for Max at Chet Wilson Engine Service. When Max was building his 1/4 Hemi drag bike back in the late 60s to early 70s, Jerry was just a kid working in his dad's shop and did a little of the port work. Max even mentioned he was able to locate the water jackets with the Dotco... :cry:
OK we got all the parts on without screwing up the paint too bad... here it is (the orange hammer is the wheel chock, dang thing kept rolling backwards, couldn't find the crack in the floor that usually stops it. :-)
Beautiful bike....
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Here are more pictures of the finished assembly, the decals are next, but I am headed to Denver in about 3 hours. Probably won't get by the see Max again before I leave if all goes well.
The tarps are HF 4 x 12, so 3'8'' X 11'8'' just for a little perspective.
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Here are the last ones I have, Max has done such a beautiful job on this scooter,great design and engineering, great workmanship, great craftsmanship, an all around outstanding job.
Max gets all the credit for this bike, it should go like stink.... I can hardly wait :-D
Good luck at the Bub Max. I am looking forward to meeting his crew when they hit the salt and get to see the 2008 scooter for the first time.
With any luck, I will get to post some good race pictures and videos...
Again, good luck, have a good trip, I'll see ya on the salt 8-)
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Stainless thanks so much for all the effort you have put into posting and helping Max.
I've decided to not kill myself trying to make WF with my car and one of the reasons is I'm going to have to go to BUB. I'm hoping for great things for Max and I want to be there and see him run again and of course the whole deal with the world's 4 greatest/fastest motorcycle streamliners once again going head to head.
c ya in a week and again at Bub and again at WOS,
Sum
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On my way to the Enduro X in Oklahoma City from Sturgis so took a side trip to visit Max yesterday. The bike looks great and the decals are going on, should be a great meet at BUB.
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Hey Max,
You coming to the Top 1 World Land Speed Shootout?
Rocky R
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On my way to the Enduro X in Oklahoma City from Sturgis so took a side trip to visit Max yesterday. The bike looks great and the decals are going on, should be a great meet at BUB.
surely you took more pictures... post them and I wont call you Shirley again
I am jealous... All you Wichita lurkers might need to go by and help Max get loaded up.
Rocky, I'll bet if Max is defending the title he will be there... Let's see what Bub brings.... :wink:
See ya on the salt 8-)
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Stainless, mainly Max wanted the troops to see how good the main decal looked, besides, you have done such a great job of recording the build that Shirley I couldn't ad much!
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Hey Max,
You coming to the Top 1 World Land Speed Shootout?
Rocky R
Hey Rocky,
Mike has been keeping me posted for the past two or three months as to the Big Shootout that has now been publicly confirmed as a "done deal". Mike called me three or four days ago and said being as how I expressed my interest in attending he was calling to see if I would. Initially Denis Manning was going to be one of the entrants, but I believe Ack said that Denis had second thoughts because of a tire thing, or something of that nature.
Max
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Hey Max,
You coming to the Top 1 World Land Speed Shootout?
Rocky R
Thought I might get timed out, hence the second post.
The old saying, "Success is found at the junction of preparation and opportunity". In lieu of this, I'm honored to be included in this exclusive group of prepared LSR racers. Your answer is an emphatic, "YES!"
I'll put it all together somehow, expenses will be a primary problem, and getting an all volunteer pit crew together on such short notice, another.
Max
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Your liner is truely something special. I wish you were going to speedweek so all of us following your build could see it. Good luck at BUB. :-D
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I'll try to give those who are interested an all inclusive update as to what happened at the Bub Meet on a daily basis.
First I want to thank all who attended the meet, particularly those who supported the Black Lightning Project for 2008, and those who paid all their own expenses, worked their tails off with no pay, and finally went home with only the satisfaction that they participated in the ultimate world of speed for the Vincent marque.
After the howdy's, the how are you's the good to see you again's the shaking of hands with a few hugs thrown in, the 2008 Salt Crew were ready to do battle. The first task at hand was to get the Vincent streamliner through tech. Tech was scheduled to commence first light, day one, and finish prior to noon that same day, so a half a day of racing could commence. As it turned out, the FIM official, Charlie Hennekim, had an airport delay and was not able to show up on time as planned. That left only two inspectors to tech the over 50 FIM entrants. Tech wasn't completed for the Black Lightning entrant until after 6:00 the evening of the first day; in fact we were the last FIM motorcycle to receive the two stickers on the nose and be cleared to run the event. Bottom line--a half day rnning was lost.
Max
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You start work at first light when running at Bonneville. Around 6:15 the sun begins to glow over the horizon. You would just have to be there to witness this, there's no way to explain the grandeur of it all--a bit of nip in the air, clear skies, and no wind; we all thought this was going to be a good day.
I fired the liner for the first time that morning since reaching the salt. It sounded quite healthy-loud, with more of a multi-cylinder sound than a four and a half inch stroke V-twin multi big bang motor, it sounded somewhat like ripping canvas on steroids.
After everyone arrived I passed out the job assignments to the Salt Crew, such as telling Ernie L., Peter W. and John P., "You guys take care of keeping the liner and side car salt free. Steve D. get yourself 4 or 5 husky lads to help, and you'll be in charge of getting the liner in and out of the trailer, as well as truck driving duties. John M. you'll do the chains as always, also valve adjustment. Lenny M. you'll be the starter and the electrical man. Joe (Hartmut's German friend) you'll be the oil man. Max Re' you'll take care of the fuel, and help Don and Hartmut with the loading of the parachutes. Jesse O. you'll be in charge of getting the pants on and off, and also the side car removal. Neil D. you'll be the clutch man, and help Jesse O. and Steve D. Don A. and Hartmut W. you take care of loading your parachutes and making sure the cockpit and windscreen is kept clean--and oh yeah, you'll also be in charge of keeping the shiny side up. Ray H. you'll be in charge of the tires. Caroline M. as always will keep us happily fed.
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I was unable to provide much assistance to Max at the salt due to a previous commitment working with Travis Sutton and the TS/MSA bike. Luckily Max has a cast of folks that show up to help race the Vincent. Here are a couple of shots I managed to sneak in while visiting with Max in the pits. I was lucky enough to be able to talk with several of them, WOW, what a diverse group of guys from all over the world.
The first day started with Max and crew working on the clutch, parts arrived as Max was packing so "on the salt" installation was necessary. The "steels" were a little tight on the pins so a little modification was in order. The riders are the 2 guys under the hats working the mods. Just like at the house, you show up, you get put to work.
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Max's pit is a constant flurry of activity preparing the bike for the next run.
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The next pics are the team removing the liner from the trailer with the SSLD, seemed to work well, but may need tougher than HF casters. Max wore a couple of them out... :-o
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continued....
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Max struggled this year with electrical and fuel gremlins and getting the clutch to work correctly. While some armchair QBs may have the woulda, shoulda, coulda answers, it ain't that easy on the salt. When you are fighting more than one issue, it is often hard to know until you run through all the scenarios. Those take runs and when the scooter putted down or turned out at the 3, that is what was going on, data collection and analysis. The last run the bike accelerated perfectly through first and second gear, the guys at the 1 and 2 were ecstatic, they said it was singing... and going 250 plus approaching the 3, then it quit.... the blower shaft broke... the salt has a way of always finding the weak link. Wanna bet on whether Max puts an outer shaft support bearing on the end of a beefier blower shaft next year.
I have enjoyed this thread more than any of you. Occasionally you get to meet real salt legends, have some real fun and share something interesting in this sport. I'm going by Max's tomorrow to congratulate him and his salt crew on a great job.
This pic sums it up... 8-)
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Bub Meet Day Two
The liner was made ready to run. Don Angel would be the rider, as Hartmut had the last ride last year. The event was run quite well I thought, very ittle waiting time. When we got to the zero both Ack and Denis were already there waiting for the wind to die down so they could make a run. We already had the side car on, so I didn't feel the wind would be an issue for us, and it proved not to be, over the week. Don left the line in a not too impressive manner. We heard the announcer on the radio say, "166 mph through the lights." We picked Don up at the 7 mile turn off and brought the liner back to the pits.
Don's report was as follows: the liner was vibrating a lot; the engines acceleratd to 5000 rpm and began to stutter, the handling was really good, straighter'n a string. He shifted to second; the transmission shifted like butter; went to three grand in second; the bike quit pulling. He went on to third and stuttered through the lights at again 166 mph.
After the run's inspection we found the air cylinder to the shifters top fitting had worked itself loose and was wobbling. The cylinder was disassembled, locktighted, and put back together. The oil was changed, and quite a bit of emulsification was noted. The logical conclusion was that the fuel curve was too rich. A two step heavier spring was installed in the check valve to the four port nozzels below the blower hat. The high speed opening pressure was reduced. I decided to take the 376 mph gear off and go two teeth larger on the rear, making it a 338 mph gear at 6500 rpm
All the checks were made, and the liner was prepped for the next days run--Hartmut riding.
Max
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First a correction to Day Two. I reported what the rpm was during the run. Actually this was just a guess from Don, as the tachometer was jumping all over the place. I attributed this to a rough running motoor with lots of vibration. Later I was proven wrong on this one.
The liner was taken to the zero; Hartut was to have the ride. Ack was waiting for the wind to die down, so was Denis, and Sam had also taken his liner to the line for a run. Thewind was too high for them, so they let us go ahead and make our run, as we had the side car.
Hartmut made the run--again, not an impressive sound for acceleration. He made it through the traps at 150+mph; we picked him up at the seven and brought the liner back to the pits. I was beginning to get a bit baffled, as this should have been a much faster run. The bike wasn't responding as it should.
Hartmut's report was as follows: Lots of vib ration; the tach was unreadable; the handling was superb. He guessed he got it up to around 5000 rpm which was much too low. Preferably lock-up was causing the engines to load up, decreasing initial acceleration a bunch.
After the bonnet was taken off, I immediately observed the blower belt had broken. This was the cause of the shut down.
I had Lenny check the sender to the tach--the pin that holds the roter to the shaft was gone. Lenny found a drill bit the right size, which made a new pin. After fire up in the pits the tach worked just fine. The blower belt was replaced with a spare, and then Hartmut, Neil, and I played with the clutch for about an hour and a half. I finally figured the problem was that last year when the clutch burned up on the last run it really got HOT, taking the temper out of the springs and softening them up a bunch. Weak springs--premature lock-up.
Again we took the liner to the zero, and got a report that Sam Wheeler had made a shakedown run of 276 mph. No other report as to how his new aluminum front wheel worked. This was the only run Sam made during the 2008 Bub Meet. Mike Akatiff had started a run, but had a chute pre-deployment before the mile, and aborted. Ack and Denis were still waiting for the wind to die down when we got back to the zero.
Max
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Bub Meet Day Three
The liner was taken to the zero again, this time Don Angel riding. We got word that Chris Carr had to leave for other commitments. Denis' Lucky 7 machine wouldn't be making a run at the 2008 meet. Rocky, riding Ack's machine was ahead of us and made a run speed 288 mph.
It was our turn; Don was strapped in; the run was made; again the clutch locked up too soon. Don had talked to Charles Hennekim, who had told him to take it all the way to the 10, so Don did what he was told. During the run Don said he took it to around 3000 rpm; the engines were nosing over--no power; shifted to second; no second gear at all; shifted to high and putted to the 10 at around 120 mph.
We picked the liner up at the 10 and brought it back to the pits. The following checks were made. The timing was rechecked; it was O.K. but I bumped it up from 40 to 45 degrees advance. I had worked many hours back at the farm on the transmission, so I knew it was good. I had Hartmut recheck the air cylinder length from Himes to Himes center. During the earlier fix on the loose end of the cylinder, we had installed it without it being adjusted for length, which is critical to proper shift. By all indications it appeared to be rich. I had Hartmut adjust the high speed while I worked the throttle. The engines sounded real good. Later we found out you can't always go by what an engine sounds like revving it up in the pits.
After all the checks were made, oil changes; topping the fuel off; checking the tires and so on, we took the liner back to the zero. This was about 2:00 pm Hartmut was all suited up and in the cockpit. We were told by the line judge that it would just be a few minutes, as a liner was returning from the other end for a record run. The next report we got was that the liner making the return run had crashed, leaving debris on the track for 3/4 mile. Then we heard that the rider was severely injured. The word filtered through the competitors that it was the Gullett/Costella machine with Cliff Gullett as rider. After about an hour of waiting, we were told that the track was closed for the day.
Max
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We took the liner back to the pits. As the builder of Lambky's Liner/Black Lightning, and as Crew Chief of the machine, with two of my best friends riding, the crash impacted me a great deal. Responsibility. It's mine and only mine to give my riders a safe ride. With these intense emotions surging through my head and heart, I ordered a thorough inspection of all the nuts and bolts of the liner. This took approximately 2 and 1/2 hours which finished off the day.
Max
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Bub Meet Day Four
I'd told the crew to arrive early--first light. I found the meet slipping away hour by hour, and I was having trouble getting a handle on the tune.
Denis had a rider's meeting at dawn, where he told us Cliff had passed. We paused for a heartfelt moment of silence. Although I didn't personally know Cliff Gullett, (I had just met him last year) like all of the landracers, I felt a great sense of loss for one of our own. My deepest condolences to the family and crew.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We made all the final checks and took the liner to the zero. Hartmut was strapped in. There was very little waiting time. Ack was waiting for the wind to die down to make another run. the zero mile starter told us the track was ours. The liner was started. I gave Hartmut the "go ahead" signal. Here again the clutch was locking up at low rpm. Hartmut stumbled out of the hole. When the tach reached 3000 rpm. the engines stopped as if the ignition had been turned off. Hartmut pulled well off the course and aborted the run. I thought, "What the heck now?"
I decided to just pull the bonnet and see what we could do without taking it back to the pits. You could see the zero from where we were working on the bike. It sure hadn't made it very far. I was quite embarrassed, as my confidence level had been high going into the meet, but it was slowly being shattered one run at a time. I really didn't know what to do about the problem. I told Lenny to take the tach out of the system--I thought it could be a short causing the problem. Then I by-passed the external ignition switch, thinking it might be a faulty switch. This took about 30 minutes. We took the ailing liner back to the zero for another go.
Same thing happened on the next run. At exactly the same spot the engines shut down. Hartmut aborted, getting the liner off the track. Once again, the bonnet came off. The only thing I could think of was that it wasn't ignition, but fuel starvation. This time we pulled the belly pan
and checked the fuel filter. I was certain that this was the problem, and we were going to find a plugged fuel filter. we broke the line to the pump and turned on the fuel--that wasn't the problem. A half inch steady stream of alcohol was observed. We buttoned the body back on and took it back to the line.
Max
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Bub Meet Day Four
So run #3 went like this: We were given the go by the line judge, Lenny started the engines; the engines died. We kept trying to start the engines until the batteries were just about to give up, and discovered that we'd forgotten to turn the fuel on after checking for a plugged up fuel filter! I suspect I wasn't the only one who thought, (whole world watching) thaat we were beginning to look a lot like the "Marx Brothers", me being "Groucho", the incompetent leader of the group.
Don managed to turn the fuel on without pulling the pants. We got some jumper cables; used the battery out of the tow trailer, and we were back in business. We got the go again; Lenny started the bike, and Hartmut was on his way. THE ENGINES QUIT RUNNING AT EXACTLY THE SAME SPOT! Hartmut pulled off the course.
Whatever ailed Black Lightning wasn't going to be fixed here at the zero, so back to the pits.
What a Salt Crew I had, Their spirits were still high after all of this. If they were down they weren't letting me see it. They were husting like beavers trying to down a tree too large.
After the pants were off this time, I discovered that the clutch had severely overheated, and was locked up solid. The three back to back runs, (all within 30 minutes of each other) had put a lot of heat in it. We had to cool it down with water before we could take it apart. The left hand nut that adjusts the inplay had somehow sheered it's key, broken several slots off the casalated portion of the nut, and destroyed the Torington bearing. This was the first thing the troops attacked and fixed. John MacDougall had brought some extra valve springs, and my friend Stainless came to the rescue with six Kawasaki clutch springs. By washering and jury rigging, we managed to get adequate spring pressure on the clutch to prevent premature lock-up.
We fired the bike several times to ensure the clutch was working properly. The final settings on the clutch spring was allowing the engines to go 2800 rpm before the lock up started. Full lock up was around 3500 rpm. This was the best the clutch had worked since the meet started. Everything was rechecked--engine timing and so on.
Max
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Bub Meet Day Four
I decided the probem wasn't ignition, it had to be in the fuel. as this was the night of the banquet, I told the troops, "Let's call it a day, you guys go on without me, I won't be attending the banquet" I told my son to represent me in collecting the Fastest Streamliner Side Car of the Meet money, as we had gone the fastest at 166 mph., and I knew the award was ours. The Renwick's top speed was 157 mph and there were no other competitors in that class.
I headed back to the motel for some quiet time, and to think.
Max
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Bub Meet Day Five
It seemed in the blink of an eye, day five was here--the last day of the meet. They had announced the day before that the track would be open from 9:00 am until noon for record runs only. I knew that this next run was going to be a crap shoot. After going over and over the fuel system in my head for most of the night, I came to a conclusion which contradicted all of my previous racing experience. The contradiction was that in my experience when an engine accelerates to a point of blubber, or nosing over, at higher rpms with no indication of seizing or holing a piston, the engine is running rich. In this case I decided to take the high speed out of the circuit by turning it the opposite way, thereby closing the high speed return to the tank. All of the fuel from the fuel pump would be going to the engines, except for the fuel return to the fuel tank through the main pill. After a week of struggling, there had to be something wrong with my high dollar Kensler diaphram type high speed valve.
I decided to start it one more time in the pits that morning (actually waiting for 9:00 am to roll around) The engines sounded good, with good throttle response, so it was time to take it to the zero line again. Don, Hartmut, and I talked it over who would get the ride. Don graciously said, "Hartmut hasn't made a pass to the other end since I made one, so give it to him."
Max
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Bub Meet Day Five
When we got to the line Ack was already there and was preparing the make a run. I can't remember the reason, but I think he let us go first. Hartmut was strapped in; the engines were fired; I gave Hartmut the go signal; and for the first time of the 2008 meet the liner responded like it was supposed to, hard acceleration off the line. It accelerated briskly for a little less than a quarter mile, then the acceleration was really hard and it instantly disappeared into the horizon.
We loaded up the starter, and the crew got into the back of the pick up to chase the liner. At the mile mark the spotter was jumping up and down with both thumbs in the air, grinning ear to ear. When we reached two mile marker, the spotter looked like a clone of the first, thumbs up, jumping up and down and grinning ear to ear. When we appoached the three mile marker, the spotter indicated by a quick gesture across the throat area, that the engines had quit. I told Steve D., "I bet the blower belt broke again." We chased the liner down to the seven. what we found was a very happy Hartmut grinning ear to ear.
I know the story, but I'd rather let Hartmut tell it in his own words.
I computed the gear ratios, rpms, tire size, etc.--the liner with side car, was running 275 mph before entering the three mile marker. The reason for shut down of engines was the blower drive shaft broke.
Max
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Max,
Great story and I am sure you will get it going good soon.
:cheers:
What was the recorded time?
J
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Hey John,
The blower shaft broke at the 2 and 3/4 mile mark. It was going 275 mph by my calculations. Coasted for 3 and 1/4 miles through the traps. Timing slip of 106 mph. Coasted to the 7 mile turn off, Hartmut had to put on the brakes several times to make the turn off. As soon as Hartmut's finished with his story, I'll post it on landracing.
Max
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Max,
garmin makes a nice wristwatch sized gps unit that tracks speed vs distance. they have been a great tuning and rider tool. they cost around $125 garmin foretrex 201.
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Jason, you would have to duct tape it to Noonan's arm or he would loose it. :cheers:
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One other thing I might point out on the coast down. There is no way to disengage the clutch. The clutch is engaged fully at about 3500 rpm. The engine speed engages the clutch. The clutch doesn't disengage until the engines slow to 3500 rpm. The rear wheel drives the clutch basket and keeps it engaged until this rpm is reached. So the speed reduction from the 275 mph was pretty significant for a good distance, as it was pulling 3000cc that were dead.
Max
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Max,
garmin makes a nice wristwatch sized gps unit that tracks speed vs distance. they have been a great tuning and rider tool. they cost around $125 garmin foretrex 201.
Thanks Jason,
I'll have to get one of those, ain't gonna loan it to Noonan.
Max
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Bub Meet Day Five
by pilot
Hartmut Weidelich
As Don Angel and were taking turns riding the liner, after my first try, where I had to abort the run on Saturday, I joked with him, "Rule #1, any run which ends in the first mile or so doesn't count for a run." He laughed and agreed. We worked on the bike and put it in line again. My second run had to be aborted as well, for the same reason as the first. After working on the bike, checking everything that might be the reason for the engines to die in the 1/4 mile, I got in again and gave it nother try. Same result, only this time the clutch locked up instantly and the bike came to a standstill within the first quarter. After lifting the bonnet we saw that the clutch was locked up completly, as a cotter pin had sheared, and the central nut was tightened up solid by the brutal force of the spinning engine.
H.W.
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Bub Meet Day Five
by pilot
Hartmut Weidelich
So I said to Don, "Rule number 2, three aborted runs don't count for a full run!" He smiled again and agreed. We took the bike back to the puts and started working on the clutch. John MacDougall and Little Max were successful in removing the central nut. That bastard was very tight, so they had to use the biggest tools and plenty of force. I took the pressure plates out and took the slider weights and levers off to see if the now dished plate could be bent back--it couldn't, as that would need a couple of tons on a press. so we decided to put it all together and add a few shims behind it to get the required play into the clutch plates. Jesse and Lenny put the springs back on and adjusted them to the measurements I had taken before tearing it apart. The clutch went on the shaft. I adjusted it, and bolted everything up.
As there was nothing else for me to do on the liner, I asked Max why he thought the bike was stopping running all of a sudden. I couldn't figure it out, as I was just beginning to think I understood how the fuel system works, and what is for what.
It was very discouraging. I had no bloody clue what was going on. I felt Max wasn't sure either as to what was happening. It concerned me, as In all the years before, he instantly knew what went wrong.
H.W.
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Bub Meet Day Five
by pilot
Hartmut Weidelich
Max said he wasn't going to the banquet, so I agreed to go with Little Max. When I went to their room in the Econo Lodge to meet up with him, there was an old and very disappointed looking Max sitting in a chair. I could see that he was in deep thought, absorbed with the liner's problem, still looking clueless. He didn't even notice when we left.
Little Max and I left the banquet after it became clear we were not going to get the award we thought Black Lightning had earned, and we had come for--The Fastest Side Car Streamliner of the Meet. We had a meal and went back to our digs.
I promised to be on the salt by 7:00 am next day, but somehow my crappy alarm didn't ring, so I didn't show up till 8. To my relief I found Max smiling in the pit, saying he had figured out the reason why the liner was refusing to run properly--the high speed circuit in the injection system wasn't holding up against the fuel pressure that's generated when the engine starts to rev up beyond 3500 rpms. so he installed the metering valve upside down, which means it blocks completely, and the engine gets the full pressure.
Again I kidded my friend Don Angel about who is to get the next run. As rule #2 came into play, he agreed that I should have another go. Thanks Donny.
H.W.
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Bub Meet Day Five
by pilot
Hartmut Weidelich
We loaded the bike. I was very confident that Max was right and this was to be a good run. at the pre-stage we had to wait until 9:30 before the first officials showed up. so time was tight, as I wanted to make a side car return run as well, and give Don at least one fast solo run at the end of the meet, which was noon.
We were finally signed off at the zero mile, and drove down there quickly to unload the bike. Top 1 Ack Attack was the only one in front of us. I suited up while I watched Rocky Robinson get into the Top 1 liner, but they were having a problem. Rocky climbed out, so the track was ours.
Got into the Vincent streamliner. Don and Marc strapped me down tightly and closed the canopy. I put my left foot on the brake, gave the "thumbs up" signal to the crew, flipped main and ignition switch over, and the engines were fired. I played the throttle a bit, and noticed that Lenny had connected the tacho again, so I had a reading as to what revs the engines were doing.
I felt that the clutch was spot on, as there was no notice of drag below 2500 revs--good for clearing out the engines and getting the motors into the rev range where they generate enough torque to pull the liner away properly.
H.W.
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you're killing me here with your suspense! :-D
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me too
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I love it! This is a great story and is being told in wonderful intervals. :-D
Max, no matter the outcome we are with you and the crew the whole way.
Geo
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Bub Meet Day Five
by pilot
Hartmut Weidelich
Max came into view on my left and gave me the signal to go, so I released the brake and pushed the pedal down about half way. The engines responded instantly and the clutch started to drag--the liner left the line. I switched the clutch's water cooling on, as all the heat in the clutch is produced when the machine starts to move. As the liner wasn't lined up properly when unloaded in a hurry, I had to steer full lock to the left to get into the middle of the track. Max had done a wonderful job in redesigning the bike over the past year. The liner is now very easy to steer--all my fears of losing control, and the constant fight of keeping the beast on course are completely gone. This bike just goes where I point it.
I kept the throttle at about half, and waited for the clutch to lock up as revs raised. At about 3500 on the tacho I felt that the clutch was fully home, and the liner came on song. all vibration one by now, and I could clearly see where I was going. Now I put the pedal down completely--the engines responded accordingly-- no splutter or missing, and within 1 mile of breathtaking acceleration, the tacho showed 5500. The red flags on each side were flying by very quickly.
I switched off the clutch cooler to save some water for chain cooling later in the run, as I figured I had enough heat in the engine by now to cope with all the fuel that we press in. I switched the cylinder head cooling on, lifted the pedal and switched to second gear. I felt a nice clean shift--something I never had before inside the liner. I started to smile and nailed the throttle.
Now the beast really came on song, and I was pressed into the seat, as those big motors at my back showed their raw power. They pushed me forward hard--I couldn't count the red flags anymore.
The mile 2 sign approached and was gone in a split second. The needle raised ever faster--clear view--no vibes at all--red flags flashing by. I realized this was going to be a quicky.
The tacho showed 5500. I saw the mile 3 sign and was getting ready to shift into high gear, when suddenly the mighty roar and giant push from behind was gone. I heard an idle blubber at my back and no response to my right foot, so at least, I thought, it didn't seize. I switched the ignition off.
H.W.
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you're killing me here with your suspense! :-D
At least it's not one new segment every Saturday afternoon :-D
Mike
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Bub Meet Day Five
by pilot
Hartmut Weidelich
As I was only 1.5 miles away from the lights and still very fast, I dicided to go through the lights after I cleared all the timing equipment. I didn't want to end up somewhere between the lights or time keeper tower, as this would have cost a lot of time to the other liner at the zero--Top 1 Ack Attack. The Lambky liner is very slippery, almost no air drag, and will coast for many miles. So I rolled along the course with switched off engine, and occasionally pushing the brake to slow down a bit, while trying not to over heat the single disc at the rear.
The timing mile was done, and I thought I'd pull the low speed chute to lose some more speed before leaving the course. Left the course, steered full lock to the left, and almost made it to the return road. As I exited the liner, I realised that only the pilot chute was out of the rear end, so I was already too slow when I released the main chute. Anyway, the engines and gearbox were not seized and the feelings that I had when the liner lost momentum was that there could only be something wrong with the blower, hopefully a broken belt again, as this could be repaired quickly.
The pick-up crew came after a few minutes and I told Max what had happened. We deided to pull the bonnet to see the problem. This time the belt was intact, but the blower drive spindle had sheered. Nothing could be done to that here on the salt, so we all knew that this was the last run.
H.W.
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Bub Meet Day Five
by pilot
Hartmut Weidelich
I felt bad when Max told us earlier that this might be his last try to set the Land Speed Record with his Vincent streamliner. All his endless work over the years to improve the bike has made this motorcycle now a powerful and easy handling machine, which is from a pilot's point of view, easily capable of setting a new World Land Speed Record for Motorcycles. If we didn't have those salt gremlins come our way we might have done it already--and this should be the end? NO WAY!
Max's face was even brighter than when I talked with him after my ride. He smiled and said, "Well if one inch isn't enough for the blower spindle, I'll make it one and a half for next year!" all faces around smiling as we now know that we'll be back to show the rest of the world what we know this bike can do.
The Salt Crew lined up, pictures were taken, and the liner was shoved into the trailer. We headed back to the pits.
John MacDougall said to me, "Never do that again--it frightened me to death!" I didn't understand, and he explained that when he approached me and saw the liner pointing to the start, he thought I had serious handling problems, and had spun out!
In the pits the liner was unloaded and all the salt thoroughly blasted off with a steam cleaner.
Somebody turned the rear wheel while cleaning the rim and noticed a wire loop sticking out of the rubber. I checked with some water. Yes, it bubbled around the wire. I might have been lucky after all, that the blower drive sheered before going really fast--I checked the wire thoroughly, and to my relief found it was of a different size than the one we'd been using all week. As I was doing most of the wire locking on the bike, I was sure I didn't lose any cut-off ends. So this wire loop must have been picked up from the track.
Now that I have every confidence I can handle the bike and the speed, I really look forward to another Bub Meet in 2009. I'm sure we'll do better than ever.
A big cheer to all the supporters of Max Lambky's streamliner, to the always helping volunteers on the salt, and of course the Salt Crew. You guys know who you are. Thanks for all the help. One thing left to be said, WE'LL BE BACK!
H.W.
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Hi, my name is Dick Milne. I live in San Diego. I bought my Ducati 900 SS from Sonny Angel and ride with Don on their monthly runs in the "twistys" out side of town. The Angel family have been good friends for 50 years! (forgive me but I'm new to this on line thing) What I'm trying to find out is any info on how that big inch Vincent is doing. Have they been able to make any full runs or they still haveing trouble hooking up all of that power? Any news would be much appreciated. Thanks for your time, DM
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Dick,
First of welcome to Landracing.com! :-D
All of the crew and the machine are back home from where they came from, the event has been over about a week or so, Max and crew ran in to some salt gremlins and hope to return next year to again try their best to achieve the title of "Worlds Fastest".. :cheers:
John
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Hi, my name is Dick Milne. I live in San Diego. I bought my Ducati 900 SS from Sonny Angel and ride with Don on their monthly runs in the "twistys" out side of town. The Angel family have been good friends for 50 years! (forgive me but I'm new to this on line thing) What I'm trying to find out is any info on how that big inch Vincent is doing. Have they been able to make any full runs or they still haveing trouble hooking up all of that power? Any news would be much appreciated. Thanks for your time, DM
Information about the 2008 Bub Meet runs can be found on this thread, beginning on page 13, September 10. You might also check out the thread, "A Racer's Protest".
Max
P.S. I've been friends with Don and Sonny for about 50 years too. Met him when I was in the Navy in San Diego.
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Bub Meet Day Five
When we got to the line Ack was already there and was preparing the make a run. I can't remember the reason, but I think he let us go first. Hartmut was strapped in; the engines were fired; I gave Hartmut the go signal; and for the first time of the 2008 meet the liner responded like it was supposed to, hard acceleration off the line. It accelerated briskly for a little less than a quarter mile, then the acceleration was really hard and it instantly disappeared into the horizon.
We loaded up the starter, and the crew got into the back of the pick up to chase the liner. At the mile mark the spotter was jumping up and down with both thumbs in the air, grinning ear to ear. When we reached two mile marker, the spotter looked like a clone of the first, thumbs up, jumping up and down and grinning ear to ear. When we appoached the three mile marker, the spotter indicated by a quick gesture across the throat area, that the engines had quit. I told Steve D., "I bet the blower belt broke again." We chased the liner down to the seven. what we found was a very happy Hartmut grinning ear to ear.
I know the story, but I'd rather let Hartmut tell it in his own words.
I computed the gear ratios, rpms, tire size, etc.--the liner with side car, was running 275 mph before entering the three mile marker. The reason for shut down of engines was the blower drive shaft broke.
Max
Someone asked me in the 400 mph m/c tire thread how fast the liner has gone. You'll find the story and speed in the quote. Also, if you read further on into this thread, you'll find rider Hartmut Weidelich's account of the run at Bub 2008.
Max