Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: RoosterBooster on March 26, 2008, 06:51:23 PM
-
actually i guess i need A LOT of help :-o :roll:
Hi, my name is stephan (i was born and raised in switzerland ...so please excuse my sometimes bumpy english :oops:)
i build very radical off-road cars that we mainly drive in the desert and sand dune areas of the west like Dumont CA, Little Sahara UT, etc...
my best friend Ryan English (and owner of the most powerfull car i ever build) was/is already a speed-freak but now he got somehow infected with the Landspeed bug :-o
i`m new to LSR and dont know much about it but he told me that two older LSRacing legends (IIRC the names are Lufkin and Isky if i spell the names right ??) visited his home in Henderson NV and after seeing his car they told him he absolutely has to take it to Bonneville and see what it can do WOT
but here starts the trouble; there is no doubt the car has the power and the strength to go fast ....but it was designed for serious offroad action only (with things like 21" suspension travel at each A-arm corner....i guess thats about 20" more then what we would need on the salt lol )
i think all the aerodynamics are completely wrong for high speed;
the car is designed to scoop large amounts of cooling air into the radiators and coolers that are needed with the amount of HP we are running.
i guess the car is about as aerodynamic as a barn door :-P
to make things worst the car has full skid plates (they can safe your butt in the dunes but create a huge amount of lift under speed)
here are a couple pictures of the car and some tech data:
(http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF8896.JPG)
(http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF8892.JPG)
the car (we like to call it V-Rex) has a front/midship mounted all aluminum, all forget internals 572 cid brodix tall deck bigblock with a 5 rotor dry sump system on it. it is force feed by low mounted twin turbos that share a large intercooler.
the trans is a top of the line custom full manual TH 400/Allison hybrid with 10" race TC (~2200 rpm stall and ultra tight to keep slip/heat at a minimum) together with a large Fluidyne Enduro Transcooler and a scatter-proof SFI bellhousing.
(http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF6571.jpg)
(http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF6561.jpg)
(http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF6642.jpg)
the engine/EFI/turbos are set up for endurance/good driveability and not peak HP but it still made 855 hp at the rear wheels on the last dyno pull (at 12 psi boost and 91 pump gas) the engine/fuel system could handle a lot more boost (on race gas) if needed.
the rearend is a very stout custom B&J Quick change with all 300M internals (including the torsional torque sensing differential) and a oil pump/filter cooler setup.
(http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF7277.jpg)
the rear A-arm suspension uses race 935 CV`s with 300m axles. the rear hubs run on full floater GN snouts and are driven by 300m drive plates and stub axles.
the 1.75" DOM tube frame is extensively triangulated and also has already some "armor plates" in key locations (mainly in the center tunnel around the trans/driveshaft and between the tires and the driver compartment (the 39" tall sand "paddle" tires are not really designed for the speed this car can reach in the dunes)
(http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF6530.jpg)
(http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF6667.jpg)
all 4 A-arms are controlled by 3" race 3 tube bypass shocks and progressive two stage coil carriers
the car weights 4200 lbs wet; the weight distribution is 45% front : 55% rear. wheelbase is 130", overall length is 14' and it is 92" wide front and rear (with 35" desert tires).
needles to say that the car is very fast in the desert/dunes but where the heck do i start to modify it for high speed :? :?
i guess lowering the car and limit the travel would be the first step. switching to longer QC gears and start searching for high-speed tires is next....
we actually plan to go to El Mirage in a couple weeks for a little testrun to see how the car feels like at higher speed (the car was already over 130 mph in the desert and except for some front lift it was reacting very stable)
we dont expect to brake any record with our brick on wheels (i guess it is/will be the fastest dune buggie anyway) this is strictly just for the fun of it :-D
any and all suggestions, tips and help are highly appreciated
stephan
-
build a liner.....put that in it ...then you'll be hammering.....
-
build a liner.....put that in it ...then you'll be hammering.....
lol his wife will kill him if he spends any more money on that car :roll: :-D
-
First of all, it's a beautiful car and great craftmanship.
As for Bonneville you would have to run "Time Only" as there is no class the car could run in.
Like you said the "Aero Dynamics" would be really wrong for high speed. You wound have to do a bunch of work to get it "low and long".
Want to put the engine in a Roadster? Just kidding.
Tom
-
Throw away or get rid of everything besides the engine, trans and driveline parts..and start over..
-
There is no provision in the class structure for the car. The rules are far, far removed from the build that the car cannot be acommendated. May I suggest that you attend the first El Mirage meet (May 17 & 18), buy a rulebook, check out the cars and classes and see what is required to race.
If you attempt to go to El Mirage in a couple of weeks to test you will more than likely end up with a ticket from the BLM rangers. It is no longer like the old days. Bless their hearts Isky and Jack are a little behind in how the lakes are run in 2008.
Good luck. I am sure you will get a lot of suggestions on how to proceed. Graet looking car by the way,
DW
-
USFRA World of Speed 130 or 150 club would be your best bet to run on the salt. Their requirements are available from the link on the homepage. It is nice on the salt in September.
-
Dan- If it meets all safefy requirements (cage, fire etc) why is that not a lakester? And allowed to run?
-
Dan- If it meets all safefy requirements (cage, fire etc) why is that not a lakester? And allowed to run?
I had that thought until I saw the engine size, the requirements might drive a lot of time and money, that is why I suggested WOS. He could go 159 legally if it will....
-
Gorgeous car -- just not a LSR car. Not a lakester either. Body parts outside of the plane of the wheels (or whatever). Cage not up to SCTA head restraint specs, and probably lots of other things that I don't know or can't see. Would cost a bundle to convert it, and probably ruin it for what it was built for.
How about getting a cop radar ticket -- could be less expensive.
-
thanks for all the reply`s :-)
USFRA World of Speed 130 or 150 club would be your best bet to run on the salt. Their requirements are available from the link on the homepage. It is nice on the salt in September.
Stainless1, thanks for that tip....a "time only" run is what we are looking for.....i guess our idea is as old as hotrodding itself; all we want is to see how fast V-Rex will go if we put our foot in it :-P....
-
Dan- If it meets all safefy requirements (cage, fire etc) why is that not a lakester? And allowed to run?
i actually forgot to add that the car is Street legal (at least here in AZ) ....would that help?
-
Throw away or get rid of everything besides the engine, trans and driveline parts..and start over..
maybe in a year or two that could be a option; run the drivetrain in the buggy during the sand season and then bolt everything in a LSR car for the speed season :-D
-
Stephan,
First, never appologize for your command of English, you have done great!
The plan of running the sand before the dirt or salt makes sense. Many LSR cars are sold as "rollers". The majority of the cost is in the drive line. You have what appears to be a killer engine, trans and rearend.
Look on this Forum under LSR "stuff for sale". Another good source is the ads in the Bonneville Racing News. That's how we got our chassis.
Tom
-
Stephan,
Just had another thought. While it would require some modifications to the air intake and turbo ducting this driveline would make an interesting combo for a Rear Engine Modified Roadster in a wide body like a '34 Ford.
TG
-
Stephan,
Before you run on the dirt/salt, the actual race track, you will have to change the wheel tire combo. Is that something the car accomendates well?
DW
-
Stephan,
First, never appologize for your command of English, you have done great!
The plan of running the sand before the dirt or salt makes sense. Many LSR cars are sold as "rollers". The majority of the cost is in the drive line. You have what appears to be a killer engine, trans and rearend.
Look on this Forum under LSR "stuff for sale". Another good source is the ads in the Bonneville Racing News. That's how we got our chassis.
Tom
Tom, thanks for the compliment :-)
yes, i think taking the dune buggy to the salt will only be the first step..... i guess after we got our first taste of "salt" we will be back for more :-D
buying a chassis or maybe building something from the ground up (this time with the rule-book at hand :-P) sounds like a possibility
-
Stephan,
Before you run on the dirt/salt, the actual race track, you will have to change the wheel tire combo. Is that something the car accomendates well?
DW
DW
i build my cars very different then the average dune buggies;
i actually use a lot of roadracing/circletrack parts. the front and rear hubs are Speedway Engineering (Nascar style) large bearing Grand Nationals. the rears run on 3" full floater snouts for safety. the bolt pattern is 5.5 on 5 so there is a large selection of rim sizes available.
i like to use front and rear sway bars; they are also a Speedway Engineering product and can be adjusted (by replacing the torque tube with thicker/thinner wall thickness tubing).
the lower A arms are fixed but the upper arms are fully adjustable; i can adjust camber and also give the car more caster if needed.
everything on the suspension is extremely stout (after all it is designed to jump and absorb very rough terrain).
the suspension can be lowered fairly easy (i can replace the Coil carriers with shorter stroke ones and switch to stiffer coilsprings)
the shocks are fully adjustable in compression and rebound.
the frame is torsional very rigid (my center tunnel design adds a lot of stability) ; the car feels very solid and predictable on the street and off.
my biggest problem are the brakes: we use large vented discs on all 4 corners together with big calippers; there is no way we can fit a 15" rim over them (we run 17" on the sand and desert tires) so i guess i can not use any of the narrow Goodyear LSR tires :-(
i found this fairly tall Goodyear F1 GS-D3 255/55 YR 18 (roughly 29" tall x 10" wide). the factory speed rating is "Y" = 186 mph.
(http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/goodyear/gy_eagle_f1_gsd3_ci2_l.jpg)
would that work??
-
Stephan,
A lot of LSR guys run 18" rear wheels and tires are available, I think M/T has tooled up and are making limited sizes. Don't skimp on tires. In LSR a narrow rim and tire is preferred. Some have suceeded running 10" wide tires, but most skate and spin.
Having spun @ 170 (wind assisted) let me tell you, that's something you do not want to do!
Tom
-
my biggest problem are the brakes: we use large vented discs on all 4 corners together with big calippers; there is no way we can fit a 15" rim over them (we run 17" on the sand and desert tires) so i guess i can not use any of the narrow Goodyear LSR tires :-(
You don't need no stinkin brakes.
Well, actually going to smaller brakes on the rear, eliminate the fronts, and use GY 28" LSR tires in the rear with solid 11" rotors and willwood calipers. Don't be afraid to make changes to make it suitable for the salt. Temporary changes that is.
Be aware though that LSR is a disease, and you and the team will be affected for your remaining years.
(for most of us, that is a good thing)
Rick
-
Before he goes buying $700 tires he should contact:
rulebookinfo@scta-bni.org
let the tech people tell him what he needs to run. This looks to me to be a short term investment. I don't foresee them competing with the SCTA/BNI/USFRA for long with that vehicle. They are first timers with a vehicle that is out of the norm for the class structure. Let Kennedy and Fogliadini direct him on mods needed to compete.
I only mention short term because the car will not be a record contender. If they like LSR they will want to move forward with a dedicated vehicle.
DW
-
Dan,
If they want to run it in the USFRA 130 MPH Club they could run U, H or VR/ZR rated street tires. Since the Buggy is street legal they might aready have the right tire/wheel combo.
The discussion has taked 2 directions, running the buggy with some mods @ USFRA, and utilizing the drive train in legit LSR car.
We know what happens when bit by the salt bug, and not the kind that hangout at the Bend in the Road.
Tom
-
OK,
DW
-
Before he goes buying $700 tires he should contact:
rulebookinfo@scta-bni.org
let the tech people tell him what he needs to run. This looks to me to be a short term investment. I don't foresee them competing with the SCTA/BNI/USFRA for long with that vehicle. They are first timers with a vehicle that is out of the norm for the class structure. Let Kennedy and Fogliadini direct him on mods needed to compete.
I only mention short term because the car will not be a record contender. If they like LSR they will want to move forward with a dedicated vehicle.
DW
DW, your absolutely right; the word "short therm" is hitting the nail on the head :-).
i guess some peeps will ask why the heck we even try to do a speed run with a dune buggy :?....to answer that i guess i have to quote the mountaineering legend George Mallory; when a reporter asked why he climbed Mt Everest he simply answered "because it was there" :-P
all of my life i have seen pictures and stories about LSR and the salt flats (and i absolutely love the movie "the fastest indian") but i was never actually there.....
it would also be kinda fun to be able to say that i build the fastest dunebuggie on earth :-D (and having a timing sheet to proof that claim)
-
You don't need no stinkin brakes.
Well, actually going to smaller brakes on the rear, eliminate the fronts, and use GY 28" LSR tires in the rear with solid 11" rotors and willwood calipers. Don't be afraid to make changes to make it suitable for the salt. Temporary changes that is.
Be aware though that LSR is a disease, and you and the team will be affected for your remaining years.
(for most of us, that is a good thing)
Rick
Rick
wow :-o..... i never realized that you guys actually run next to no brakes :-P
but i guess im stuck with the big brakes; i made the caliper brackets a integral part of the front spindle and the rear upright :roll:
yeah, i guess the LSR disease is just as bad as the "sand" disease ...if you get infected it is next to impossible to ever get away from it :-D
the dunes are one of the last places where you can drive completely unrestricted.....it is highly addictive....even more so if you have a nasty engine like the one in Ryans car
for the guys that have never been to the dunes here are two pics of the car in action :-) :
(http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/still/normal_vrex_15.jpg)
traction in sand is actually very high (with the huge paddle tires) the car pulls power wheelies...even with the weight of the bigblock up front
(http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/still/normal_vrex_5.jpg)
i just love that pic of how the turbos blow flames out the tailpipes :evil:
-
Stephan,
Hope you are still looking at this thread. It's an interesting topic.
How fast has the "buggy" been driven?
I think that the horsepower/drive train will overpower the aerodynamics of the car. Having looked at the pictures again, the side panels would creat lift at speed. That's not good. It would be fairly simple to fabricate some add-on panels to streamline the buggy. This may have been mentioned before. I did not go back thru all the posts.
Tom