Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: PMS on February 21, 2008, 05:07:28 PM

Title: PMS-MoFa & Scooter-questions-topic
Post by: PMS on February 21, 2008, 05:07:28 PM
Hi,
my name is Tom and Pork Pie told my if I had a question about speed..Bonneville..classes etc. I posted here.
My dream:
Once time in my live to had a great ride on the saltflat at Bonneville!!
My hobby:
Drive fast with 2 or 4 wheels..on the street or race-track
My Motto:
Have fun in the free time

So I hope that I was able to do all 3 altogether. 8-)

I/we(K3-Team) want to start in the smallest bike class,the 50cc.
Now the question:
What class can I ride with this "bike":
(http://hometown.aol.de/boxerhahaha/images/flory31.jpg)

It`s a KREIDLER FLORY
50cc,1,5hp,1976,15,5mp/h speed at law.
Don`t laugh... we call it MoFa (MotorFahrrad/motor-bicycle) in Germany (drive till 15 years old):-D
So we want to drive the fastes MoFa....

Must we start in the class "P"??
What things we can/must change to start in "M" ?
Must we change the breaks?Fork?Damper`s?

We are able to modify the orig.cyl./motor and drive with the orig. 3.gear motor.
Can we take off the pedals and made a gearing with foot instead with hand?

Change the seat?handlebar?take off the lights?

Sorry for that many questions,but first we must know what kind of bike we must built!

Or we take this 50cc "bike" for had fun with speed?

(http://www.moto-ri.de/bilder/Kreidler-Florett-RS-1978.jpg)

Kreidler Florett RS,50cc,6,8hp,~53mp/h at built,5.gear box

What class?etc....

Hope we have many helping hands here.

Greetings from the cold Germany

Tom

ps:Sorry..if this the wrong topic,please take this to the right on..thanks :-D

Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: bak189 on February 21, 2008, 05:42:26 PM
Welcome.....the first thing we all need to know
SCTA/BNI or BUB event?????
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: Stainless1 on February 21, 2008, 06:14:55 PM
Any bike that is "as produced by the manufacturer" would run in production class.  Any modifications must be out of view (motor internals, muffler gutting, etc).   If you want to run modified, just change something externally and it is no longer production. 
Get a rule book as soon as they are available
If running Bub, the rules are online.
Welcome and good luck.
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: fredvance on February 21, 2008, 06:40:11 PM
Are they 2 stroke or 4? Just curious, got nothing to do with your question.
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: Nortonist 592 on February 21, 2008, 11:58:51 PM
Kriedlers are two-strokes.  They cann be made to go very fast.  VanVeen made (or perhaps still makes) some incredibly fast 50cc machines.  I spotted this in a mag a while back.  Illegal for SCTA but legal over there.  50cc = 140mph.  (http://)(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1695/img118nm8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
By weslake (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/weslake)
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 22, 2008, 01:54:59 AM
Welcome.....the first thing we all need to know
SCTA/BNI or BUB event?????


Thanks for welcome..
At the 2 h call with pork pie I don`t know yet wich one?
SCTA...ich write some mails with Ellen....
BUB...I see the rules and records...
BNI...I know only the word.

Ok..for us it is the best to had a run after September...
We want to change some parts of the MoFa...tune the motor..we want to drive fast.
So I think M-AG or M-AF...
We thinking about...without partial stremlining or with.
We also had a option of class A or APS.
But we had a dream..so we want to made the first "bike" (MoFa) very fast...but the look must be orig.
I like streamlining/streamliner...they are very fast...but looks like a rocket..not a bike.

What do you think wich class we can drive with the first bike I post?Without some heavy parts..tuning...other seat..handlebar..

A other question..wich class was this bike:

(http://my.photodump.com/PMS/P7130099-T.jpg) (http://www.photodump.com/PMS/P7130099.html)

It`s the same motor as in the MoFa..without padels...and a frame from a HONDA RS125.

Hope you can help us to find the right class...is not easy to find this for us..many rules...etc.

We like Kreidler since I was 15 years old..it was my first " bike"..take many trips with this small bike...but always not legal (who can drive only 15mp/h?? :?).
Kreidler motors are very god for this time..I think the best on..made records on the saltflate..fastest 50cc streamliner..many records on the tracks.

We know,that today there are better motors,with watercoold...6.gears...but we had a dream!!
In Germany they are not realy many MoFas on the road,only some scooters with a speed of 15mp/h,but ths is not a Mofa in our eyes..the bike must have pedals,then it`s a MoFa!

Thanks for your post.

cu
tom




Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: Nortonist 592 on February 22, 2008, 02:06:13 AM
I forgot to say welome.  The 50cc producion record is 75mph so the moped would be out if its depth for a record attempt.  The M and A records are in the mid to high 80s.  The Kriedler RS would be a much better bet.  Especially if you could locate an air cooled VanVeen barrel and a decent carb and pipe.  You could run in modified and have a chance at a record.  Many years ago I used to race a Kriedler and it was a lot of fun and a fast little bike.  Good luck.
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 22, 2008, 06:39:28 AM
I forgot to say welome.  The 50cc producion record is 75mph so the moped would be out if its depth for a record attempt.  The M and A records are in the mid to high 80s.  The Kriedler RS would be a much better bet.  Especially if you could locate an air cooled VanVeen barrel and a decent carb and pipe.  You could run in modified and have a chance at a record.  Many years ago I used to race a Kriedler and it was a lot of fun and a fast little bike.  Good luck.

Thanks for welcome.
nice pic...is that you on the KREIDLER?
(http://imgcash1.imageshack.us/Himg137/scaled.php?)

We know about Van Veen bikes..very fast at the track...
One time in the year (beginning of September) we drive with the HONDA/KREIDLER a 8 hours long distance race.
We must use the motor from the MoFa...only without pedals..must use the orig. cyl. and head..carb and pipe are free...but only 3 gears like the orig.!
You know about the rpm of 50cc...and only 3.gears...max.rpm at 15-16.000...1.gera very long to start.

tom
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PorkPie on February 22, 2008, 09:53:38 AM
Hi Tom,

as you see....it works....


By the way....Ellen is USFRA.....and, sorry, I forgot to tell you - the BNI is  the organizer of the Speedweek in August and World Final in October - they manage this two meets, together with the SCTA.

Also, the P class said "Any modifications must be out of view (motor internals...." in other words, so as I said you on the phone...inside it could be modified.....means hot pistons....and more.

I'm sure one of our bike inspector on the landracing can tell Tom where the limit is for the internal modification......

So, hello Inspector.....please gave Tom the support in this way....I got the rule book here....and Tom lives only 20 miles away from my place....when he knows which class he can go, we will go through the rule book and than he can decide what he will run at the white dyno.....

.....to this what I heard from Tom.....I can say he is in speed....so as we......and every support is appreciate.....

See ya
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: Stainless1 on February 22, 2008, 10:24:15 AM
Tom, your description of the orange bike, Honda chassis, MoFa motor makes it an APS bike.  M and MPS bikes must have matching motors and frames.  If you come in September you can run at Bub and World of Speed (Ellen) and run both sets of records, WOS runs against BNI records, Bub runs FIM and AMA records.
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: bak189 on February 22, 2008, 10:41:41 AM
Here comes a shamless plug.............................
Bakker Framebouw in the Netherlands builds
replica Kreidler roadrace frames............in fact a couple of years ago they made a complete Kreidler
engine replica using CNC.........Europe loves the "little" bikes......................................................
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: Nortonist 592 on February 22, 2008, 04:25:35 PM
Hey Bob,  I've been a sucker for Kriedlers for years now.  Any photos of the frame you make or the Kriedler you built?  This was mine from around 1978.  (http://)(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/3627/img013bk8.jpg)
By weslake (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/weslake) at 2007-10-30
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: bak189 on February 22, 2008, 09:36:37 PM
I am presently at our other home in Arizona
(Wrighwood CA. to cold right now for this old man)  I will check with Nico for a picture of the frame and/or complete bike (Kreidler).............
At the end of March I will be off to Germany for a trade-show........may get the pictures then.........
Next to sidecars, I just "love" the little bikes.....
got a 125c.c. Rotax  powered machine for sale....
in fact 2 of them!!!!!!!!!!!!.............................................
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: Sumner on February 23, 2008, 12:37:48 AM
Hey Bob,  I've been a sucker for Kriedlers for years now.  Any photos of the frame you make or the Kriedler you built?  This was mine from around 1978.  (http://)(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/3627/img013bk8.jpg)
By weslake (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/weslake) at 2007-10-30

Great picture, I love it,

Sum
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 23, 2008, 02:51:08 AM
Tom, your description of the orange bike, Honda chassis, MoFa motor makes it an APS bike.  M and MPS bikes must have matching motors and frames.  If you come in September you can run at Bub and World of Speed (Ellen) and run both sets of records, WOS runs against BNI records, Bub runs FIM and AMA records.

Thanks Pork for helping hand... 8-)
Uff..so many...USFAR..BNI..SCTA...so only what I can say now ist that we want to start earliest in October or May.

About clases:
APS was very interresting,because of the partial stremlining=speed...we had also a full cover panel in front fot the HONDA RS 125 frame...then it look likes very fast! :-D

but..MPS..we can run with the first "bike"?..with the modif. orig.motor?

Class P....also..our motor was looklike the motor as the MoFa...thats the rules at the Mofa 8h race..all must be the same as the motor from the Mofa had...but we use a reso-pipe..a bigger carb..and now we use a rotary slide intake insted inteke over the cyl....are we in class P with this motor?
We are able to change the cyl. and carb-intake..no problem...but using a reso-pipe must have...

so..hope you have a little patience with me an my DREAM.

cu
Tom
ps:Now we are on the way to a short trip to SUEDTIROL(Itay)..MERAN...hope there is a nice wheater.... 8-)
 


Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: fredvance on February 23, 2008, 09:16:58 AM
The pipe will take you out of production class, the rule says it must be a stock apearing exhaust system and looking at the end of the muffler the exit orfice must be the same diameter as from the factory.(paraphrased not word for word)
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: SPARKY on February 23, 2008, 10:05:28 AM
Production or PPartial--They get really "picky" about "STOCK APPEARANCE"--even to rake and ride height---been there--been "DONE"  :-o
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: bak189 on February 23, 2008, 10:32:01 AM
Interesting.......If Tom were to enter the P (production) class at SCTA/BNI or WOS, he better bring lots of pictures of a "stock"
Kreidler.............I don't think the Tech. inspectors
have inspected a Kreidler in resent times............
At the BUB....."FIM Charlie" might be helpfull.......
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: Stainless1 on February 23, 2008, 10:44:29 PM
Interesting.......If Tom were to enter the P (production) class at SCTA/BNI or WOS, he better bring lots of pictures of a "stock"
Kreidler.............I don't think the Tech. inspectors
have inspected a Kreidler in resent times............

Exactly what the rulebook says, bring proof you are production. 
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 24, 2008, 05:10:40 PM
The pipe will take you out of production class, the rule says it must be a stock apearing exhaust system and looking at the end of the muffler the exit orfice must be the same diameter as from the factory.(paraphrased not word for word)

We are back...we had a nice wheater in Suedtirol..nice roads..drive thrue SCHWEITZ..AUSTRIA..Italy...with a FORD FOKUS ST(220hp)..nice on the road! :-D

ok..thanks a lot for the many news!!
I think the class P ist not realy the class we want to drive...with the MoFa-motor we maybe made a speed of 40-45mp/h..with this P-rules..the motor was at a few points for max. speed of 15,5mp/h made at law..extra small carb(10mm)..cyl. with only 1,5hp..a pipe with very small orfice... :-(

Than the M or MPS...A or APS...
Pic`s from the stock parts and bikes are no problem....
But what did the Inspectors say about the frame...you know built for the high speed of 15,5mp/h!! :-D
OK..I tested on my one...1982...with~53mp/h..with no hands on the handlebar..no problem with the stock frame and wheels..brakes..shocks.
Must the frame look like the stock in M or A classes?

Greetings from Germany

Tom

When I take of this parts of the MoFa...wich class is that?
M or A ?


ps:
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 25, 2008, 02:27:25 PM
When I take of this parts of the MoFa...wich class is that?
M or A ?

ok..in both classes we may remove the fenders.

next...I read,that only one brake must be on function..is that right?only the back break?
It is better to have only one brake??why?
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: emx on February 26, 2008, 12:30:46 PM
hi tom,

you must be the guy from ludwigsburg ?
(as i heard from porky pie)

nice flory btw.

i´m mark from stuttgart and try to race 20089 as well.

we should meet and exchange some infos.

cheers,

mark
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 27, 2008, 01:59:45 AM
hi tom,

you must be the guy from ludwigsburg ?
(as i heard from porky pie)

nice flory btw.

i´m mark from stuttgart and try to race 20089 as well.

we should meet and exchange some infos.

cheers,

mark

Hello Mark,
yes I am from Ludwigsburg..near Kornwestheim..the "home" of KREIDLER! :-D
Send me a pn and we meet us or tel.,no problem.
Hope we can start in 2008..but I think with test the MoFa etc. we start better in 2009... :roll:
To many questions about the rules...
With the MoFa we made us a dream,but the rules don`t made a differnce about MoFa..Moped..etc..only 50cc!!
In class P with the MoFa we had now chance.....you know the Germany restriction on the MoFa-motors :|
Maybe it`s better to use a Florett frame...than use the 4.or 5. gear motor...based on the 2,9 (small cyl.) or 6,8 hp motor.

cu
tom

ps:one question about the gripp on the white dyno (I like taht name! :-D).
Pork Pie told me we had about 10% less speed at the saltflat than on the road...what trick do you made??
Less pressure at the tires??Special tires?
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: Stan Back on February 27, 2008, 05:14:32 PM
A lot of high-powered vehicles lose speed by spinning the tires.  I don't think your 50cc motorcycle will have this problem.

Pork may have been referring to the horsepower loses because of the high altitude -- almost one mile above sea level.
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: Sumner on February 27, 2008, 05:19:08 PM
.....................Pork Pie told me we had about 10% less speed at the saltflat than on the road...what trick do you made??..........

Bring some sea level air with you.  The salt is about 1370 meters above sea level. 

Welcome to LSR,

Sum
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 28, 2008, 03:18:55 AM
A lot of high-powered vehicles lose speed by spinning the tires.  I don't think your 50cc motorcycle will have this problem.

Pork may have been referring to the horsepower loses because of the high altitude -- almost one mile above sea level.

Thats right...Pork told my about the high altitude..I forgot to write...
So I made better test in higher area at home to have a better setup-start at the white dyno...

we had some nice roads in ~1200 m...

ok..so whats about the pressure in the tires at the 50cc bikes when I had no spinning ??

About classes:
Yesterday I tel. with Pork....the class P are nor realy good for us with the MoFa.
So better try A or M class...

Tom
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 28, 2008, 10:54:40 AM
Welcome to LSR,

Sum

Thanks.. :-)

..next week at 5 March we spend our holidays in PERU...drive some high roads (max.4800m!!)..swim in the beach>summer!

We had a little stop-over in Dallas (5.March at 2.30pm) and take off at 6 pm to Miami (9.30 pm)..hope to take off to PERU at 12pm..or we must stay one night in Miami.
At 28.March we are back again and we start to build the high-speed-MoFa! :-D

Tom
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 28, 2008, 05:40:49 PM
OK..no I am still here...need more informations from you... :-D

In class M or A

Question:
-The orig. Mofa-motor had 3.gears...it`s alowed to change the gearbox?Outside it`s the same..inside  we can made a 4.or 5. gearbox..

-The MoFa had a handgear and have pedals like a bicycle...shoud we change into a footgearing without pedals?

We know..it was a lot easier to put the Florett frame/bike...but we like the challenge..had a dream. :evil:

Hope we had enough rules informations till end of March,so we can start to built a fast Mofa.
Then we can post some pics from the MoFa,and we hope you will help us to find a class or to change some parts from the MoFa that we are able to start end of the year....or 2009.

Greetings from the cold Germany

Tom




 
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: bak189 on February 28, 2008, 11:35:22 PM
Greeting from WARM Arizona, U.S.A.

You still have not told us which organization you plan to race with......................................................

AMA (BUB) national records 2007
M-AG     70.314mph
M-AF      74.752mph
A-AG      72.558mph
A-AF      80.949mph

50c.c. class                         Good Luck............


P.S. one of the AMA 50c.c. records set in 1977 was a Kreidler at 81.986mph in the MPS-AG
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 29, 2008, 01:48:18 AM
Greeting from WARM Arizona, U.S.A.

You still have not told us which organization you plan to race with......................................................

AMA (BUB) national records 2007
M-AG     70.314mph
M-AF      74.752mph
A-AG      72.558mph
A-AF      80.949mph

50c.c. class                         Good Luck............


P.S. one of the AMA 50c.c. records set in 1977 was a Kreidler at 81.986mph in the MPS-AG

I know the rules from the diferent org. was not the same,but some of them are similar..
It`s the time when the event starts...we only can start end of september or May.
At the begining of September we had our 8h -MoFa-endurance...so no time for the speed MoFa! :|

Thanks for the records in classes and the luck. :-)
I see,some of the records are 30 years old!!wow...hope we are able to beat them...

But Fuel and GAS...Fuel ist the normal patrol and Gas are a mix from alcohol etc.?
We even use normal petrol from the station...about 98-100 octan.

In class MPS..we can use any covering from a bike?? :?
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 29, 2008, 06:37:07 AM

Bring some sea level air with you.  The salt is about 1370 meters above sea level. 

Welcome to LSR,

Sum

I saw a pic on your hp....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/b-ville%20meets/2006%20BUB-50.jpg)
.... a scooter! :-o
But I see no class for a scooter. :?

Tom
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: Stainless1 on February 29, 2008, 09:22:52 AM
The  Bub Meet has a scooter class, AMA / FIM rules   :-D

The OLD AMA records were not used for a lot of years, revived by Bub.  Old records often mean no one is running there...
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: bak189 on February 29, 2008, 10:28:40 AM
Gas class....normal pump petrol
Fuel class...anything else then pump petrol....
like Metanol enc.
MPS class...roadrace type fairings....(no Dustbin type)

Scooter, like in your picture, running over 100mph.....(standing up on the scooter)
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 29, 2008, 10:52:00 AM
The  Bub Meet has a scooter class, AMA / FIM rules   :-D

The OLD AMA records were not used for a lot of years, revived by Bub.  Old records often mean no one is running there...

realy??!wow..I like the old Vespa...in my avatar I drive with my 1966 Vespa on the Nürburgring (Grand-Prix-race-track-about 5km long).
The speed on the long flat road (800m) from the track was about 89-89,5mp/h.
2008 in May I want to drive about more than 93mp/h...
But it`s no race-motor in it..just my every day scooter...drive to work..but in a PX 1983 chassie.

Hope end of the year ,I can start again with a new motor projekt and drive 99-100mp/h with a other frame

I must see the rules in BUB for scooters...also in cc??
Maybee a project 2010?? :-D

I like this small and old vehicles.... :evil:

Tom]
Title: Re: PMS newcomers questions topic
Post by: PMS on February 29, 2008, 10:57:19 AM
Gas class....normal pump petrol
Fuel class...anything else then pump petrol....
like Metanol enc.
MPS class...roadrace type fairings....(no Dustbin type)

Scooter, like in your picture, running over 100mph.....(standing up on the scooter)

Thanks about that info.
OK..I think we try the gas class,because we never try methanol or something else bevore...
Never change a runing system... :-D
what are roadrace typs meen??or Dustbin?
We had a fairing from a production racer..HONDA RS125...is taht ok?

The scooter is like a scate-board??
awsome!! :-o
what cc had the scooter on this pic?

Tom
Title: Re: PMS-MoFa & Scooter-questions-topic
Post by: bak189 on February 29, 2008, 11:03:37 AM
Roadrace fairing...like your RS Honda................
Dustbin fairing....like on roadracing sidecars.........
Title: Re: PMS-MoFa & Scooter-questions-topic
Post by: PMS on February 29, 2008, 11:33:06 AM
Roadrace fairing...like your RS Honda................
Dustbin fairing....like on roadracing sidecars.........


Great!Thanks! :-)
So we are able to start in A or M...and APS or MPS..and gas

OK...time to time we find our class with the MoFa! 8-)

Maybe we can start in 2 classes?? A and APS or M and MPS?
Is there enaugh time between the runs to fit the fearing on?

Tom
Title: Re: PMS-MoFa & Scooter-questions-topic
Post by: PMS on March 03, 2008, 01:13:17 AM
Roadrace fairing...like your RS Honda................
Dustbin fairing....like on roadracing sidecars.........


like this?

(http://my.photodump.com/PMS/20050521_3222-T.jpg)
or this?

(http://my.photodump.com/PMS/P8030230-T.jpg)

ok in class MPS/APS ??

Tom
Title: Re: PMS-MoFa & Scooter-questions-topic
Post by: bak189 on March 03, 2008, 09:52:22 AM
Tom...........Yes.........................................................
Title: Re: PMS-MoFa & Scooter-questions-topic
Post by: PMS on March 03, 2008, 01:27:14 PM
Tom...........Yes.........................................................

ok..thanks a lot...
Sorry about nerves :roll:

Tomorrow..the last day to work..than 3,5week holydays...PERU we are coming!!
I am a little bit nervy...till 10 years I never fly again!! :roll:
Today I see the new $ notes...I like the old one more..the new ones are look like play money...ugly colours.
But 1€~1,47$..wow..thats great..hope at the end of the year there is still the same,and I hope we had a cheep fly to Bonneville...

I am back of 31.March...then I start the work at the "high-speed-MoFa".
If you are interested,I made some nice pic`s from the work..

Hope al will success...and that job pays well.

Thanks a lot for all informations that you gave me till now. 8-)

CU in 3,5 weeks...

Greeting from a cold and wet Germany

Tom
Title: Re: PMS-MoFa & Scooter-questions-topic
Post by: PMS on March 23, 2008, 06:41:54 PM
Greetings from PERU! 8-)
We love the summer here...but next week I must fly back...to the cold winter-germany :cry:
cu next week again..
 Saludos from Lima

Tom