Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Marcroux on September 14, 2007, 08:00:26 PM
-
The November issue of Hot Rod has feature story on the Goldenrod restoration that everyone may find interesting and one very bad mistake in a sidebar that is a real howler! I let you had the fun of figuring it out. ( One small clue, if it did happen it would have been the comeback story of the millennium :-D) The November issue of Dirt Bike has feature story on building a CRF450 for Bonneville, lots of fun mistakes in it for the detail minded.
I got a copy of John Stein's book "World's Fastest Motorcycle:the day the Bonneville salt stood still" today in the mail. Have not read it but the pictures look great and it has a DVD it.
Let not forget Rocky Robinson's book "Flat Out". I read it and liked it alot. Remember Christmas is coming and it would make a great socking stuffer for you Ack Atack fans.
Marc
-
Thanks for the reading list. Always on the lookout for motor head books and magazines. Will look over the Hot Rod goofs. I subscribe to Hot Rod
but it is more fluff than good reading. The Rodders Journal and Street Rodder are my favorites right now. Off to Amazon Books to see what they got.
-
The November issue of Hot Rod has feature story on the Goldenrod restoration that everyone may find interesting and one very bad mistake in a sidebar that is a real howler! I let you had the fun of figuring it out. ( One small clue, if it did happen it would have been the comeback story of the millennium :-D) The November issue of Dirt Bike has feature story on building a CRF450 for Bonneville, lots of fun mistakes in it for the detail minded.
I got a copy of John Stein's book "World's Fastest Motorcycle:the day the Bonneville salt stood still" today in the mail. Have not read it but the pictures look great and it has a DVD it.
Let not forget Rocky Robinson's book "Flat Out". I read it and liked it alot. Remember Christmas is coming and it would make a great socking stuffer for you Ack Atack fans.
Marc
Thanks, I'll have to check these out.
I might have to drag out the rule book, but the CRF450 would put you in M, right? I would think a Ninja 500 would be cheaper, and it would save you from re lacing wheels for proper tires. What do you have to do to get into M with a production bike? wishing I had my rule book with me :)
Wasn't there a guy building a KX100 for his wife?
-
I just finished reading "One Good Run" , a life history of Burt Munro. I can't remember who the author was, I got the book at the library, and have returned it.
I loved the book!! The story of his early years was great!
I read the article about the Goldenrod in HRM. Good pictures.
I wish somebody would post a schematic or drawing of how the power-train in that thing was laid out. I have looked at various web sites and many pictures and still can't figure it out exactly.
JG
aka Jim McNaul
-
Saving a buck or two, maybe:
http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/113_0505_summers_brothers_goldenrod/index.html (http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/113_0505_summers_brothers_goldenrod/index.html)
(http://images.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/113_0505_04z+1965_summer_brothers_goldenrod+engines_view.jpg)
Mike
-
Tim Hana wrote "One Good Run". He also wrote the John Britten bio which is very well written and researched. I recommened it highly to anyone. However one problem with "One Good Run" is it's a dramatic recreation of Burt Munro's life, in other words a novel. (roman à clef for you english majors) So you need to take anything written in it with a grain of salt. This is written in the introduction of the book by Hana. He recomments "Burt Munro:Indian Legend of Speed" by George Begg for it's meticulous research on Burt's racing. Both books can be found on the Amazon web site.
Marc
-
I read one good run first and it was great. Then got Burt Munro Indian Legend of Speed by George Begg and it was fantastic. It filled in some of the missing parts of one good run. George Begg knew and raced with Burt for 25 years. I really liked the technical side, George explains Burts engines and transmission mods. Only buy it from Amazon book since Ebay people want over $35 for it. The book is in the 11th printing and a very good read. The Sep / Oct issue of Vintage Motorsport has a great story on Mickey Thompson "The 400 MPH Man" written by Tom Madigan
a friend of Mickeys since the 50's. Part 2 will cover more of Challenger I and Bonneville.
-
sockjohn
for whomever cares...the article was in the october 2007 issue of dirt bike.
the dirt bike article focused on the AMA 'MPS-P-G' record of 120ish........mps with a p engine ?!? I went online and found the record in the BUB book and it really exists. it was from 2004
i thought the best part of the article was that the author used the 'c' word more than once!!!!
Mark
by far the best thing about the entire issue was the 'roost picture' on pg 20/21 of ben carlson backing the big supermoto aprilla with the number ONE plate in way deep! As most of you know...it is always really cool to see a friend getting press in a national magazine!
-
January 1933 Motor magazine, currently on eBay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MOTOR-ANNUAL-JANUARY-1933-ART-DECO-HOT-ROD-INDY-MUROC_W0QQitemZ130153215933QQihZ003QQcategoryZ10076QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MOTOR-ANNUAL-JANUARY-1933-ART-DECO-HOT-ROD-INDY-MUROC_W0QQitemZ130153215933QQihZ003QQcategoryZ10076QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
has an article on "racing" at Muroc.
(http://i7.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/b6/16/db8c_12.JPG)
Shipping seems excessive, though.
Mike
-
Re the Summers driveline-SAE paper 660390 has a 3/4 view drawing of the chassis and a top view showing the driveline orientation as well as technical (wind tunnel) data and a few pictures.
It should be available from www.sae.org and I think under $20.00
-
The November issue of Dirt Bike has feature story on building a CRF450 for Bonneville, lots of fun mistakes in it for the detail minded.ohn Stein's book "World's Fastest Motorcycle:the day the Bonneville salt stood still" today in the mail.
Happy Sunday!
I am busy with non-garage chores and cant stop thinking about the article referenced in this post.
more specifically....
the article refers to a 500-MPS-P-G......I understand that organizer provided gas must be used to qualify for 'p' motor.....so we are really talking about MPS-P
A 500 cc MPS-P record exists in the BUB rule book, but it hasnt been updated to match what the magazine guys are claiming on their website. http://www.f2racing.net
is mps-p really a modified partial streamline bike with a production motor?
is this possible?
i hope there is an answer out there....i am starting to worry about sleeping tonight :-D
Mark
-
Strange indeed. MPS/P what? The record shows it is held by a Harley. Leaving one to think it is a pushrod class. Forgive my ignorance but isn't a CBR450F an OHC motor? I'm not certain on that but if it is it shouldn't be running in what appears to be a pushrod class. I'll have to get a copy of Dirt Bike and check it out.
I was at the supermarket and checked out the article. It did say they were running in MPS/PG. But their motor is an OHC so it would appear they are barking up the wrong tree. Or BUB isn't too fussy. At El Mirage there is no M class for bikes. They are bunched in with the A class. APS/G record at El Mirage is 166.970. The APS/PG record is 129.817. At Bonneville the APS/G record is 169.890 and the APS/PG record is 111.015. If they are running APS/G they have their work cut out.
-
First thing to say is that the bulk of the article is great and clearly shows that Mike Cook and team have done a great job on the car. When it came to Goodwood a few years back, Brian Palmer - who took care of SSC transportation worldwide - helped to unload it and was shocked at what a mess it was underneath.
It's when they try to explain the historical context that they get their knickers in a knot. In particular, there is a side bar where they claim "the straight scoop" from Chyrsler engine man Peter Dawson about why the engines were taken back after the runs leading to stories (according to Hot Rod) that they were either underweight and/or super secret. They say " After taking the record from Englishman John Cobb, the team was hoping he'd come back and make it a race, so they were planning to build more powerful hemis." They go on to say, "Unfortunately, Cobb never came after the record and the match up didn't happen."
For a start they didn't take the record from Cobb and it would have been difficult for him to make a race of it in 1965-66 given that he was killed in 1952 attempting the water speed record in his jet boat Crusader. I thought maybe they'd just got the name wrong but they repeat it earlier in the article and compound the error by saying they were after the "internal combustion engine speed record" which is also nonsense.
Granted it was a confusing time for the outright record because the jets had arrived by the time Goldenrod was ready to run. Cobb's record had stood since 1947 and was indeed set using internal combustion engines - albeit a pair of aero engines. By they way, in another article in the same issue of Hot Rod about this year's Goodwood Festival of Speed, they say Challenger was first over 400mph. Wrong again - that was Cobb in 1947 with a return run of 403 when he set the record. But then Breedlove, Tom Green and Arfons upped his record using jet cars (a category created by the FIA after the FIM had ratified Breedlove's record) while Donald Campbell had taken what was by then newly described as the wheel driven record with his turbine engined Bluebird. It was that 403.1mph wheel driven record which Goldenrod was after. Hot Rod don't have to take my word for it, just go back and read any of the articles they published themselves at the time. It's only latterly as others (Teague with a blown motor and Vesco with a turbine) have upped the wheeldriven record that the tag of fastest nornally aspirated car has been applied. That's not in anyway meant as a criticism. The car they produced all that time ago is still remarkable today. SSC and Dieselmax aero guru Ron Ayers cites Goldenrod as the logical start point for anybody designing a multi engined car. Quite an accolade in my book.
Robin
-
I may be wrong, but I thought someone told me that Chrysler took the engines back because The Summers used the smaller scoops on the 13th. And the car wore the red, white and blue paint job for a time because the brothers were in the process of selling it at one time, and the new owners painted the car before the deal fell through. Any history buffs know?
-
You got it Robin and it only took a month for someone to write about it. I think Hot Rod mixed up Donald Campbell's career with John Cobb's. A quick google on the internet would have straighten out Hot Rod's factchecker. I don't know were the underweight nonsense about the engines came from. Was Mickey Thompson building his new record car at that time? Maybe this is who they were waiting for to take the record. Also I remenber a story from a Hot Rod annual that said that Goldenrod burn alcohol because it was overweight. Anyone else remenber this?
Marc
-
Weird thing about Hot Rod gaff is that if you read their pre-restoration article (follow 4-barrel Mike's link) they get it half right by saying that Goldenrod beat Campbell's wheel driven record. But they still add the tag "piston engined" despite Bleubird using a turbine. We all make mistakes but they of course have access to the complete back catalogue of Hot Rod so it's sloppy research and journalism in my view.
in Hot Rod year book 1965, Don Francisco says that right at the end of their initial test runs, they switched to alcohol with recalibrated injectors because the air inlets would not provide the expected level of ram air until they came back for higher speed runs. Having later changed the ducts, not sure if they then switched back to gas for the record runs. Given that Mobil were a prime sponsor, maybe they did. Having lost enough hair and teeth to have read the articles in period, I'll dig them out to check. Of course, if somebody knows for sure that would save me the search. Once I unpack any of the boxes of old magazines in the garage loft I'm AWOL for weeks
Never heard any of the "engine myth" stories, but then again I live on a small island just off mainland Europe and not So-Cal, so why would I? Also never heard of car being painted red, white and blue. Which means that somebody will post a pic of it like that straight away.
MT built his twin Ford cammer engined car a bit later (1967-8 I think). Last I heard, son Danny was going to bring it out for a shot at the record (that would be the unblown, blown,wheel driven, piston engined, non-turbine, snazzy two tone blue paint job record then) but as ever, everybody is always going to do something.
Robin
-
A interesting sideline regarding the late Burt Munro...................his good friend M/C Hall of Famer, Marty Dickerson, now 82 years young,
rode a Vincent (of course) at this years BUB to a speed of 152mph.
I have known Marty since 1954, and had the great pleasure,( as a member of the Hall of Fame Committee)to put has name in for induction.......
he was inducted in 2002.
Marty can and will tell you some great stories about Burt........both book writers talked to Marty, also his input helped put the movie together.
We both roadraced for many years back in the
1950's and 1960's with the AFM....in fact Marty was one of the people that started the roadracing group AFM in 1954.
Marty, at 82, is a inspiration to a youngster like me at 71...............so I plan to race my Kawa/Turbo
solo bike at next year's BUB..................................
-
............... Marty Dickerson, now 82 years young,
rode a Vincent (of course) at this years BUB to a speed of 152mph......................
..............Marty, at 82, is a inspiration to a youngster like me at 71...............so I plan to race my Kawa/Turbo solo bike at next year's BUB.......
There you go Hitz, no need to sell your lakester just because you think you are getting old.
This is in response to Harv saying a couple weeks ago that if he didn't get to run his lakester next year he might sell it as he though he was getting too old. Funny thing is I've meet Harv and he could pass being in his 50's.....well late 50's (http://www.cybergifs.com/faces/wink8.gif) ,
Sum
-
But isn't he only 45?????????
-
Strange indeed. MPS/P what? The record shows it is held by a Harley. Leaving one to think it is a pushrod class. Forgive my ignorance but isn't a CBR450F an OHC motor? I'm not certain on that but if it is it shouldn't be running in what appears to be a pushrod class. I'll have to get a copy of Dirt Bike and check it out.
I was at the supermarket and checked out the article. It did say they were running in MPS/PG. But their motor is an OHC so it would appear they are barking up the wrong tree. Or BUB isn't too fussy. At El Mirage there is no M class for bikes. They are bunched in with the A class. APS/G record at El Mirage is 166.970. The APS/PG record is 129.817. At Bonneville the APS/G record is 169.890 and the APS/PG record is 111.015. If they are running APS/G they have their work cut out.
CRF450 is a SOHC motor. The streamlining they have leaves lots of mph on the table to say the least! :)
FYI, the October "Honda Tuning" magazine has a Honda S2000 powered lakester in it, not a magazine I would normally pick up but the mention of "drop tank" in the cover caught my eye!
-
I hope this is the right place to do this. If not the adminstrator can delete.
I have just finished a book I built from images from the 2007 Bub International Motorcycle Land Speed Trials. 235 images, 80 pages in an 10X8 softcover or hardcover photobook. Here is the link http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/97926 I would very much be interested in feedback should anyone pick one up.
I know. .... selfish promotion ... true ... but the book does make a great momento of the event for about the cost of a t-shirt. I would like to build these from more events. An individual book for an individual event and would really peoples thoughts and opinions on the viability of such a project.
Thanks
Scooter
-
I had some long talks with Bill Summers about the Goldenrod.
To the engines - from the beginning the engines was only borrowed from Chrysler - Bob and Bill got the rights to modify some parts like the oil pan that the engines match into the car. After the record run and the very last high speed run to test the Bob Herda air intakes the engine went back to Chrysler.
There was an alcohol run but just for testing - had nothing to do with the air intakes.
The Chrysler provided air intakes was air brakes, also they give them a lot of trouble on high speed - too much air. Correct is that the Herda intakes creates not enough pressure at low speed but worked perfectly at high speed.
Also Bob Summers never went into the highest gear, not on the last, 425 mph run.
In 1963 the first jet car was successful - but the record was certified by the FIM.
The first official jet car record was Tom Green with the Wingfoot Express (I).
After this record - the level was pushed by Art Arfons and Craig Breedlove higher and higher during the 64/65 season.
In 64, also Donald Campbell set a new record with wheel driven power - he was the first who succeed with a turbine engine.
Due to this that there was different fastest records, using different units, the FIA changed the rules.
The new rules showed the unlimit class with trust power - split in jet and rocket power.
One of this two power systems was from there on the world land speed record - from 1970 - 83 rocket power was the fastest - Richard Noble broke in 83 the world land speed record and set a new record in the jet engine class.
From 1965 the wheel driven records was now called international records.
The classes was split into piston and turbine engines - the electric and turbine engine got a weight classification - the piston engine a displacement classification (so it was before) for the flying mile and kilo record under FIA regulations.
They used on long distance record so classification before.
To understand right - for the flying mile and kilo was before a splitting of the different kind of power units - but the world land speed record was just one record - doesn't matter what was used. All the other was just classification records - but it was necessary to be 1 percent faster than the old record, also than when it was a different kind of engine.
From 1965 the wheel driven was not anymore the world land speed record - but in each category we got now the fastest international record - currently the fastest wheel driven is the late Don Vesco with the 458 mph - in the turbine catogery.
Second fastest is Al Teague with a 425 mph over the kilo in the blown piston engine - over the mile Tom Burkland is with his 417 mph inofficial faster than Al's 409 mph.
Unblown is the Goldenrod still the fastest - the mile and kilo are very close in 409 mph.
In the Hot Rod article - I think they simple mixed Donald Campbell and John Cobb - but in 1965 Donald was still record holder (to 2001) in the turbine category. Also Donald was killed in 1967 before he got his rocket powered Bluebird CN 8 released to go for the unlimited world land speed record.
The engine story....we can call it speculation.....reality was that they was just borrowed.....
-
Ve-gates Porky, (the Donald Davidson of Landspeed racing!)
You got to realize that the enthusiast magazine are populated in the US by Journalism graduates-not MOTOR HEADS and today the magazines are nothing more than CONDUIT TO THE ADVERTISERS!
Innacuracies are rampant-they are too LAZY-or BUDGETS don't permit- RESEARCH!
And some like a popular other-gender writer. I spite of her enthusiasm can't figure out how to write for the MASSES or the insiders.
If I was (her) editor I guarantee I could straighten er out -along with the cocka-mayme- editors that publish motorsports books!
-
Ve-gates......wie gehts......how are you....you meant this, I think....
This long explanation - I wrote it after someone mention that things which happened 40 or 50 years are forgotten by a lot of people.
So I thought I fresh this people minds a little bit up.....
-
I studied Spanish in school-So Cal, ya know. But my German, under normal circumstances, would be as correst as possible, EXCEPT. . .
We So Cal dudes are ALL smart a**s and VE GATES was an example. Fer- Schtainzee?
Looking at the Nish streamliner as opposed to the Vesco and Ferguson "clones' in my mind backs up what you claimed- it DOESN'T have the same Cd but has a rather FAT rear-(I like girls like that-but none I knew ever went 400-plus mph.)
I truly believe , though, that you need to have an abundance of horsepower and good salt/traction and that a Cd between .12 and .20., lets say, might not be as important as a "purist" might think.
Nish probably has adequate hosepower, but the window is too small-in other words they needed perfect conditions to pass Summers and Summers, way back then had the necessary "abundance".
-
The Goldenrod was leased to a group of handicapped people who were interested in setting a "handicapped driver" record in the car. In 1983 I photographed the car at the Reno Air races where it was on display in it's red white and blue paint job. I also have photos of the car in Bill Summers driveway when it was being stripped of the body panels to be repainted the gold paint job again. The original painted "lettering" was not done correctly at that time and was displayed that way until Mike Cook restored the car for the Ford Museum.
The handicapped group could not raise the funds to repair the car and it was returned to Bill Summer with it's "patriotic" color scheme.
I was on the salt with the Goldenrod November 12th 1965 along with Terry Nish who was 17 at the time. Hot Rod magazine did a double page spread og thr Goldenrod being pushed. I'm the guy with the striped shirt helping with the pushing.
Jim Keeler
-
Just watched World's Fastest Indian again (for probably the 10th time) and had a question. I know I read there is a new book coming out about Rollie Free. On World's Fastest Indian, the heavyset guy smoking a cigar that helped Burt Munro at the salt was named Rollie Free...is that supposed to be the same Rollie Free that rode the bike at Bonneville in a Speedo?
-
Yup :-D
-
and the same marty dickerson portrayed in the movie set a record at the bub deal on a vincent this year at 80 years of age.
-
When the book about Rollie Free is printed.........
it will be very interesting.........all the way from Rollie's racing Indians in the 1930's........his work in the second World War..........his Vincent runs in 1949.....................a lot of the info. will be coming
from Marty D. and Mike Parti.......Toward the end of his life I had the pleasure meeting Rollie, he certainly is one off the legends of LSR..................
-
There's a new book out about Dan Gurney and his Eagle Racing Cars. Did any of his stuff ever touch the salt? I remember Gurney sponsored Chuck Palmgren in Class C motorcycle racing too. Pretty neat character...
-
From The American Hot Rod, Dean Batchelor, page 147: Top, Riverside, California, August 20, 1950. The Skip Hudson (at right with white cap), and Dan Gurney (wearing a "Snuffy Smith" hat, a grubby T-shirt, and waving to the photographer) Bonneville entry: a '29 A V-8 entered in C Modified Roadster class. Their entourage was about ready to start the tiring trek from Riverside to Wendover, Utah, about 700 miles north of home. They had worked nearly round the clock to get the car ready, and there would be little relaxation the rest of the week, as they would discover that running Bonneville, while exhilarating, is an endurance contest. Riverside Police Department photo, Dan Gurney collection.
Bottom,Dan and Skip arrived at the salt with three engines, but the one that started in the car (borrowed from a friend) stayed in it the entire weekk. Gurney is at the wheel of the '29 roadster awaiting the starter's signal to go. His best run of the week was 130.43. Skip Hudson collection.
Mike
-
Was at Barnes and Noble today and found that the following magazines had stories of interest for this group. All are dated November and are British, the motorcycle magazines title "Performance Bike" (Pb) and "Two" both have stories about racing at Bonneville. The car magazine "Motorsport" has an interview with Andy Green and story writen in the 40s by Malcom Campbell on how he broke 300 mph at Bonneville. One quote of interest was Andy Green saying that Goodyear was designing 450 mph rated tires to replace the 300 mph rated ones. Take it for what it is worth.
-
And the December issue of Motor Sport has an article about Mickey Thompson.
Robin
-
Just received the Oct/Nov issue of Australian Motor Cycle News from Richard Assen across the pond. There's about an 8 page article on the 07 motorcycle speed trials with great pictures and story from Gary Inman.
Thanks for the scoop Richard. Look forward to seeing you and your friends over here in 09. We'll leave a light on for you. :-D
-
Finally recieved my November/December issue of Motorcycel Classics. There is a good article about Keith Martin, showing his 'Salt Shaker' Triumph as well as a vintage Triumph SCTA racer. A mention is made of Kent / Airtech.
www.MotorcycleClassics.com
-
I'm sure you guys have seen these books before, but just in case...
The Fastest Men on Earth: 100 Years of the Land Speed Record by Peter J.R. Holthusen
The Land Speed Record: To the Sound Barrier and Beyond also by Peter J.R. Holthusen
Both cover the "absolute" record, but with great photos and a more technical approach than most of the others I've seen. Also covers some of the interesting projects that never got off the ground like the British Lionheart rocket. Also:
Faster Than Sound by Harvey Shapiro - Interesting to read speculation from the past now that Squadron Leader Green has done it...
Thrust By Richard Noble - How he did it...