Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: DahMurf on September 10, 2007, 03:50:59 PM
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I've heard a lot of talk about "enough seat time" lately. With the events that have been held so far this year, I believe we've had a bike down at each venue that has had a meet haven't we? A number of car spins as well.
As for me, I had a flaw in my shutdown plan that didn't become apparent until I hit shut down at a higher rate of speed. Up until that point everything felt right so why would I change what I was doing. In my case I don't think more runs at a slower speed would have helped because the minute I hit the higher speed I would still have had the same problem. The problem was in my plan.
Todd & I have discussed this at length. When he got in the Maxton 200mph club he had all the time in the world to hot lap. (granted the track was in worse shape but...) 20 runs in a meet was common and with 6 meets a year there was no pressure, no rush. Now 10 runs in a meet is a lot and we're down to 5 meets. And lets face it, Maxton still has one of the best opportunities for runs per year. Most of the other venues get far less runs.
With all that being said, how do we get more beneficial seat time? Should we just start to plan that it will or should take years to work up to the over 200mph records? The longer us bike racers wait the higher the records get. So it makes you feel like you don't really have time to go slow. The people with the experience keep running to better their skill & keep running up the record speeds. Some of us feel like we'll never catch up.
So what would you recommend to those that are trying something new either a new vehicle, faster speeds, different venue or just plain new to LSR. How can we go about doing this more safely? I hit the drag racing track for practice but that doesn't get me near the speeds of LSR.
Just wondering what others think.
Deb
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How much is enough? Depends on the person. Skill level, maturity, you name it, it all counts. If all you ever do is go in a straight line you don't get as much experience as the guy on the squirrely bike. If you go in with motocross, flat track, any dirt experience then you are a leg up on the guy that has a pocket rocket and never gone anything but fast and straight. (Damn, why don't those guys ever learn to go fast around a corner? I pitch my PT Cruiser in sideways and blow past them until they get it straightened out and blow back past me.)
The speed you go has to do with your comfort level. There is no speed reference. If you doubt that try 45 on a narrow side street. Seems REALLY fast. There isn't any thing to hit, other than the ground. So if the pucker factor seems really high then you might want to make a few more runs at a slower speed.
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The subject deserves a chapter in a book at least. :wink:
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I do realize this is subjective but, the fact remains, especially with bikes, there's a lot of us that have not had the benefit of riding dirt bikes or road racing that now do have access to fast straight line bikes at relatively inexpensive costs for the amount of speed.
So how do we know when we've practiced enough or practiced the right thing. Some of us aren't smart enough to be scared. Some of us are tiny enough to fit behind the windshield and have no relative feedback on the actual speed unless we've remembered to calculate and memorize estimated speed per rpm, if the rpm is accurate & no wheel spin is encountered.
This is a sport where we are pushing the limits. Some of us will get scared and say that's as fast as I want to go. If we're lucky we'll get there before it's proven to us the speed is more then we can handle. I'm just wondering what we might offer for those of us that aren't that smart. Should we go ride bikes in the snow, on the beach. Practice tank slappers, wheel spins, wheelies, brake lock-ups, knee drags all before we try to run over 200mph?
yeah, I know it could be a chapter, or a book (maybe it already is?)
Maybe we can talk Jack & Scott into opening a LSR school like the drag racers are doing! :-D
I know I'd attend regularly like I am at the drag strip! (I want a cut if y'all do it! lol )
Deb
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Not sure if my thoughts on this subject will help as I'am a rookie landspeed racer, but here is my experience. Last September was the first time I had ever run down a landspeed track, starting at 125mph and working up to 204mph that weekend. That meet some people were pushing me to take another pass at the end of the day, for that 209mph. I didn't feel right, the last pass 204mph was too much for me I knew I needed take many more passes at 180-190mph in order to feel comfortable. The next meet in Oct my passes ranged from 170mph to 206mph. In five events I have gone from 204mph to 218mph, not a huge jump. Every faster pass I would notice something different, for example the front end gets lighter or changes in vision. You have to ask yourself ok did I feel truly comfortable at that speed or do I need more runs at or around the fastest speed so far. Yes I think riding a dirt bike or road racing helps, but nothing is better than lots of comfortable runs at the venue you are racing at. This is just my opinion, others may feel different. Trilly
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FWIW: Old time dealer I bought my first bike from in '63 told me I would learn something every time I threw a leg over the bike. If I didn't, I wasn't paying attention. A time would come when I would get on and think I knew more than the bike...........watch it, that would be the ride that would bite me. Also not be surprised to hear of riders having incidents on their own street or turning into their own driveway on returning from a ride, relaxed just a bit too soon......... That and other tips/advice from more experienced riders has served me well so far.
LSR schools/seminars: Excellent idea, everybody can always learn something.
Trilly passing on that last run: Sounds like a very wise decision, have heard that it is that "one more run" that gets the skiers hurt at the end of the day, just a bit more tired, lost a touch of energy, a concentration and attention..........
Ed
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For car guys, I've often said the Jimmy Sills sprint car school would be a starting point!
125 to 204-attaboy!
Bike racers? I've known/met lakes/salt/drag MC riders since the mid '50s (I've even shaken hands with Noonan!) and IMHOP they are the most puzzling group of UNBELIEVABLY BRAVE humans I have ever seen. I don't think there's a school in the world that could teach what's required to ride two wheels at high speeds! It's born into their posterior area!
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Just a suggestion from a car guy. How about something like the California Superbike School? A bunch of dirt or desert riding couldn't hurt either.
Pete
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The seat time you are giving it right now includes some of the most valuable contributions you can offer and the most valuable lessons to be learned.
"Chimps can find high gear, sit in the middle, hang on, and turn the right handle to loud, but as you are finding out it is a package deal.
Otherwise, it is kinda like learning to fly by the book. :wink:
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Two days with Keith Code at the California Super Bike experience would be most valuable.
His principles work with motorcycles........where ever they are ridden.
He has mentored at least 3 Worlds Champion GP riders and he is a delightful
man to know.
FREUD
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I had trepidations last year before my rookie runs until I spoke with an engineer two weeks prior to Bub who made me feel at eash. As he explained it to me-- He asked if I ever used a gyroscope as a small kid. You put the sting in, wind it up... then pull the string. As the gyro spins, one can balance it on the tip of a pencil. Explaining further he told me that the front wheel of my bike was a gyroscope, the back wheel a gyroscope and the chain, a third gyroscope. The faster I would go-- the harder time I would have being displaced (falling down, provided I keep the wheel straight). That year I had no problems. This past week at BUB this theory was further reinforced when I applied nitrous to a 190 mph speed on this very soft/wet slush as I entered the mile. The back of the bike fishtailed back and forth to a great degree for most the mile but never went down.
Good runs are also prepared by first doing them in your mind. Visualization. Olympic and professional greats always see themselves performing the feat first in the minds... and then going out and doing it. Watch the Olympic bobsledders before he takes a run... watch Tiger Woods before he hits a shot. Visualization is the best kept secret in sports... or life in general. If you can see it... you can do it--
A good book is "Creative Visualization" and the current movie at the video store "The Source".
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I had trepidations............... This past week at BUB this theory was further reinforced when I applied nitrous to a 190 mph speed on this very soft/wet slush as I entered the mile. The back of the bike fishtailed back and forth to a great degree for most the mile but never went down................
How about starting a different post and tell us about the nitrous experience this year. I'm interested in how it worked out and what approach you took after all the discussion on it a month or two or three ago,
Sum
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deb
whats the problem? seat time is seat time! every time you can make a pass or just plain ride around town is "good" seat time. count every time you get off your bike as good seat time. hell riding around a California freeway is scarier than a pass at elmo. Yes visualization is a very good and important tool you must use, heck i bet you can close your eyes right now and see those cones coming at ya.... now can ya see yourself turning away from them.... ya didn't crash again did ya? If you saw something, that's experience. Anyhow, you can be standing at home plate visualizing a curve ball coming at ya and it winds up being a slider.....ya cant expect whatever variables will happen, that's why they call them accidents. Heck there was one so called experienced dummy that tossed his low speed laundry out at 293 mph at speed week....will he do it again.... we'll find out at the world finals. There are those who "have" crashed and then there are those who "will" crash. Bikes crash, cars spin, shit happens..... clean it up, lets race..!...
kent
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Deb asked this question for much more then her own benefit or as a solution to her recent experience. We all agree seat time is seat time, and Deb's pretty familiar with this track and the highway both.
With more passes then many currently running faster then her at Maxton today(she's been making passes on multiple bikes for about 5years now), she also has a good 90,000+ miles under her belt including on 75k her Sportster, 6-7k on her Buell Blasts and her 8-9k on her Hayabusa from the the last 7 or 8 years with MANY of them from riding to work and back(1+ hr each way in and out of the Washington DC cone and orange barrel dance) on a daily basis ALL YEAR ROUND(yes, from 100+ to under 0 degrees on some days). Does this make her some great veteran mc rider.. not really, but it doesn't make her some green newbie jumping off a blast onto a Busa either. I've ridden with my share of people on the road in HEAVY polluted areas... Deb's still my number one choice as a riding partner safety and ability wise, bar none(and I'm not blowing smoke, I get people I don't trust on the road away from me all the time).
Do I think jumping, doing wheelies, burnouts, donuts, drag racing, hill climbing, flat tracking and bike games in general help in LSR racing.. you bet, anything that helps build experience, control and confidence in balance and reaction is beneficial every time you look over the front wheel no matter where it's at.
Glad to see those that have been in these shoes above commenting, and yes I think I'm fairly familiar with which ones have and have not been "there". For those that think it can't happen to them.... well, they'll be the ones with excuses of why when it does, for those that have been down and admit immediate fault of why... you are the ones that are contributing most to this conversation(and sport as a whole) imo.
Todd
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I had trepidations............... This past week at BUB this theory was further reinforced when I applied nitrous to a 190 mph speed on this very soft/wet slush as I entered the mile. The back of the bike fishtailed back and forth to a great degree for most the mile but never went down................
How about starting a different post and tell us about the nitrous experience this year. I'm interested in how it worked out and what approach you took after all the discussion on it a month or two or three ago,
Sum
Sum
If you would like to hear my story I'll post it in a couple days. Still getting over the disappointing week.
Bill
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I had trepidations............... This past week at BUB this theory was further reinforced when I applied nitrous to a 190 mph speed on this very soft/wet slush as I entered the mile. The back of the bike fishtailed back and forth to a great degree for most the mile but never went down................
How about starting a different post and tell us about the nitrous experience this year. I'm interested in how it worked out and what approach you took after all the discussion on it a month or two or three ago,
Sum
Sum
If you would like to hear my story I'll post it in a couple days. Still getting over the disappointing week.
Bill
Sounds good, we have been trying to learn from the "disappointment" side ourselves :cry: ,
Sum
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todd
sounds pretty qualified to me..!...
kent
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Thanks for the responses so far...
so to continue this conversation....
If you were tasked with coaching someone new to LSR and the goal was somewhere over 200mph, and they had some experience or skill but not necessarily in LSR, what would you say? What's the most important thing(s)? What's the best approach? What are the prerequisites?
TIA
Deb
PS: Just in case you're wondering, I guess I'm not really going anywhere specific with this other then the fact that we're getting more & more new racers with high expectations and I often find myself in a position to be guiding newer people. So the thoughts & opinions of the collective are often helpful. We're having more & more bikes down & cars spinning and I'd like to see us all do what we can to help everyone be safe out there!
I know I personally learned a few things from my wreck. Some I've already passed on to some going faster then me that have helped them be safer and faster. Some things I've learned are geared more to the newer & will be shared when appropriate. I know there are many out there that don't/won't share because they don't want to help someone be faster then them. Fortunately / unfortunately I'm not one of them. I'd much rather you be faster then me & safe then know I could have helped you be safe & didn't.
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What's the most important thing(s)?
What's the best approach? What are the prerequisites?
An open mind,and willingness to learn from others,will go a long way.
Money is important,but sometimes the Ego that goes with it gets in the way.