Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Harold Bettes on January 10, 2007, 07:12:00 PM
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Sorry about the new post, but I thought that it was important for anybody that was interested. This will probably apply only to those of us that are trying to get new vehicles on the salt.
Just got off the phone with Jo Ann at the SCTA-BNI office. I told her that I was interested in getting a log book at the same time that I sent in my membership for BNI. She said although she has lots and lots of log books, they are only available at a race meet. She was very nice, but very adamant about the log books were not available until the next race meet.
So much for wanting to go as prepared as possible! Now let me see.....the rulebook states that you are to have your logbook up to snuff when you get to tech and the logbooks aren't available until you get there!
And oh by the way - The 2007 rulebook will not be available until at least March.
Holy Cow what a way to try and get more efficient with the inspection process!
SO, what I propose is that one of you guys with an extant logbook brief all us newbies on the darn thing page by page so that we can go with some plan in hand to help decrease the hassle for the entrants and the inspectors. Maybe it is worthwhile to have a simple orientation class "salt 101" or some such deal. LOL
You know what, this stuff should not be a hazing process! It shouldn't require killing chickens at midnight or some kind of secret handshake, either.
Trying to avoid getting old AND confused at the same time.
Regards to All,
HB2
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almost made that call myself today. ran out of time. thanks. anyone have a solution to this?
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I went to an event and picked up a log book before I needed it. Refer to my earlier response to the log book question.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,1611.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,1611.0.html)
The picture of page one is readable, and you can pull together the information and fill it in when you get the log book. It might take you ten minutes if you have the information available when you get there.
Page 2 is notes and comments. Page 3 is Event Record, Safety Inspection, Reinspection Correction, and Event Results and there are 30 pages just like it. The back cover has an area for photos of the vehicle. That's it.
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Harold, et al: You might be worried over nothing. Yes you must get the log book at an SCTA meet but... It's not a big deal for the racer. It's mainly for the tech crew. Each book has a serial number on the cover and a corresponding number (sticker) that's afixed to the chassis. Inside the book it has a place for your vehicle number, date of construction, who built it, type of vehicle, along with information about your safety gear etc. This is a one time only page. Then it records what class, engine, body style, etc. EVERY PAGE IS THE SAME! If the tech crew see a problem they will make a note in your book so the next time the car (or bike) runs the tech team can see what the problem was and that it was corrected, simple!
Hope this helps!
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I hate to say it, but you will probably have plenty of time in line to fill it out.
For some reason it is one line, I guess since we can't race that day, that I don't mind being in and seems to move right along.
Actually the staging lines to me aren't that bad even if you are in them all day. Seems time passes talking with others and walking up and down looking at the other cars. Maybe I'm the only one who sees it this way :cry:. Beats being anyplace else :-).
c ya in line,
Sum
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OK Guys,
Bear with me here. You can only get a logbook at a race meet - duh. WHY NOT in advance of the race meet? That makes about as much sense as getting a rule book only at the race meet! In my case, Bonneville is a pretty good distance away. El Mirage is even further. So, in order to get a simple logbook to complete your vehicle build, you must travel there to retrieve a logbook. :? The logbooks are already printed NOW - The rulebooks will not be ready until at least March. There is simply a message in here somewhere that doesn't quite seem as complex as the DaVinci Code.
Sum, I agree with you that I would really rather be at Bonneville than many other places, but why should it be a hassle just because it has always been so - that's dumb hazing. NOT an improvement in either methods or process. I want to go to Bonneville to enjoy safe racing and the camaradire, not to reinforce idiotic bureaucratic drivel. The issue is that time is precious and cannot be replaced.
I consider that the time that one has on this earth to be priceless - you should be able to do all you can to make the time worthwhile for not only yourself but others as well.
All this talk of improving and yet resistance to change for the better, just simply baffles me.
I don't know about you guys, but I would rather go prepared as much as possible and then have to deal with whatever comes up than know that the whole thing is "just the way it has always been"
I believe strongly in the old military adage of prior planning prevents piss-poor performance. :roll:
And I will seriously consider that study and preparation are not an important thing to have in one's toolbox, because.......it just must not be that serious. LOL :-o
But, that is obviously open to conceptual disagreement and diatribe. LOL 8-)
Regards to All,
HB2
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The log does nothing to contribute to the construction details of your vehicle.
Remember it is a results log and not a build log.
A first time entry will get extra attention from the inspection procedure and the log book is a valuable document to record the results , both good and bad.
With it comes a numbered sticker that reflects the prior inspection results and they stay together.
Better you should spend the available time prior to the meet with the rule book.
If you can get through that, the log will be really easy.
Rulebook availability and timing are always a nose bleed but that can be improved.
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Harold,
Relax. As Jack says the log book has nothing to do with your build. Look at Dean's post again and see that pages 1-3 have nothing on them to dicate your precious build time. You will be in the inspection lines for at least 1/2 day, plenty of time to fill out 3 pages in a simple book.
"idiotic bureaucratic drivel." - Probably not the best attitude to bring to your first meet. You will just upset yourself and crew over something that everyone has to go through. If you have a better solution don't vent here, contact Jim Lattin.
The rulebook is currently being proof read, thats the best I can do.
DW
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Jack has explained the log well. Don't stress over it, you will have hours and hours in the tech line to find the most appropriate spot for the vehicle ID tag on your new vehicle and fill out the first page with vehicle and owner info. Keep in mind, Bonneville is supposed to be fun. If you have a construction log and pictures, bring it along, it will help get you through the new car tech process.
Your previous post mentioned the military, so I am sure you must be familiar with the phrase "hurry up and wait." Relax a little.
You also mentioned you live a ways away, that may mean you won't get your rule book immediately....
Dan, shouldn't you be working or something...
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Stainlees,
I am, this message board intrudes on my power nap time.
DW
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Ain't this wunerfill ?
More people are using the term "RELAX".
Also "PRICELESS" is in more common use but can mean "WORTHLESS", depending on how you hold your tongue.
"IDIOTIC BUREAUCRATIC DRIVEL" is not just for the military any more.
REMARKABLE
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Holy Cow what a way to try and get more efficient with the inspection process!
Harold,
The tech line @ last years speed week went faster than it ever had. They had the cars through ther faster than I have ever seen. Friday is an all day adventre in tech. What is your hurry? The line to race on the 1st day or 2 will be long no matter what. I know crews that wait until Saturday morning to go to tech because they do not want to wait in line. So as others have stated relax, one of the resons a lot of us run this kind of racing is because it is laid back. If you want to rush go back to the NHRA. @ Least with the SCTA you have someone that will listen.
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In '06 I was inspecting bikes -- and by 2PM Friday we had zero bikes waiting in line. We'd learned to have someone stationed at the entrance to tech -- getting the racers started on the paperwork, looking at safety garb, doing things like that -- and we had three or four inspection lanes going, too -- for bikes that had been inspected recently (an E M event a few weeks before, for instance) vs. bikes on the salt for the first time ever. That allowed for more efficient deployment of inspectors -- and things moved right along.
So don't count on long lines to give you time to fill out your paperwork -- you might find 'em, you might not. Still -- the front page of the logbook isn't all that much. Do try to have the event page filled out, though, so the inspector(s) have somewhere to sign. We don't like signing blank pages.
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Gentlemen of the Salt,
First, I recognize and acknowledge the chastisement and advice.
Because that most of you have substantially more experience with this stuff than do I, your inputs do not fall on fallow ground. In my presentation of what I see/saw as a problem that should be easy to resolve, I did not intend to either demonstrate "attitude" or messenger target profile. :?
Although the subject material seems very trivial to present to the president, I will do so and hope that does not earmark a problem for me and my piddly efforts. The presentation of the potential solution will be "fair and equitable" and intended to same some time for all.
Although this interest is targeted to having my own vehicle on the salt, it is not my first trip to Bonneville nor many other national/international events.
As for the comments about the military: I was truly lucky enough to be an operator that somewhat specialized in getting over/around the red tape of chairborne folks that generated the slowdown of more effective field operations. Thank goodness it was skill level that established target acquisition and solutions, not filling out DOD/DOA Form XX. LOL :lol:
Thanx again for your interest/comments.
Regards to All,
HB2
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Harold does bring up at least 1 question that we did not answer. WHY can't the log book be sent to someone?
My thought would be the SCTA wants to install the sticker and not have someone put it in a bad position, or they just don't want books with numbers floating around with people who "might" someday have a vehicle.
We gave him reasons why he didn't need to worry about it but did we really help this newcomer out with his question?
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The results of the open book test that gathered information from just this forum are as follows:
1. The log book and associated sticker are designed to work together and record the inspection results for that vehicle (think serial number) only.
2. Why would a vehicle log of results be useful for a entry that has never had a result ?
3. The seemingly high cost of the book has nothing to do with cost or profit motive , but rather make it more important for you to not forget to have it along.
If they were $2, I might have 10 of them.
4. Focus on the rulebook and how it applies to your ride.
Help is available with that but not much is available to fill out the log.
You are kinda on your own with the first information entered in the log but SCTA will do their best to give you all the time you need.
WHAT DO I WIN ?
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Thank you, sir.
As a result of your unwavering faith in your fellow man and subsequent assistance, you have been selected by your friends and neighbors for an all expense paid trip to SEA rematch games! LOL :-D
Hey, I really appreciate the assistance. I am even anal about check lists and pre flight checks, too. :wink:
The real joke of all this is that my concern with the Logbook is just one of many - I probably won't even get the wreck to the salt. HA. And if I do make that milestone, the fervent hope is that it passes tech without too much an example of rejection for "unsafe at any speed". :roll:
Regards to All,
HB2
Reapplying to the State Department for Remedial Course Four - "Tact and Negotiations"
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With the advent of this site for the rule changes and the inclusion of the inspection sheet for your type of vehicle easily printed from the SCTA-BNI site you should absolutely have not surprises during the inspection process. Last year book is adequate until you recieve your new one. I personally like to see those first 3 pages filled out. Infact I would like to see the page filled for the current meet too with all the correct signatures but some are too busy with the BS to do that..
As a 20 year inspector, I currently go down the list on the sheet inspecting my own before I leave home. Normally I would use one from El Mirage but I now use the one on the net.
I have watched some of the competitors follow down on their own sheet as we do their car.....
Now If we could only do something about the lookie-loos under the inspection tent the whole process would go a lot faster and easier. Same with when you are done. Take your vehicle back to your pit area have a cold one then return the finish the paper work at registration. Bring an additional cold one for waiting in line............ I hope to see some changes this year in the process for those who have run before...time will tell Good Luck.
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Harold does bring up at least 1 question that we did not answer. WHY can't the log book be sent to someone?
My thought would be the SCTA wants to install the sticker and not have someone put it in a bad position, or they just don't want books with numbers floating around with people who "might" someday have a vehicle.
I think some of you picture the SCTA like NHRA or NASCAR. They are a professional race organization with millions (or billions for one) available. Picture the 50 year old knitting club that has been meeting at Emily's house since forever. Now you get the picture.
As a volunteer organization I just think they don't want any more work than they have to. That doesn't mean it won't happen.
I purchased a log book this year at El Mirage when the vehicle was mostly parts. They didn't ask any questions other than "Wheres the money?" Anybody can buy one.
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Hey Harold,
I'm also building a bike and a car for Bonneville. I now understand that it's mainly for the inspectors to make correction notes etc. For my own peace of mind - and to help answer anyquestions an inspector may have I will keep a build log with photos reciepts communications etc. One place to keep all the build info, advise and rule interpritations.
BTW - watch it who you are calling gentlemen - I take that as a personal affront!
Carl "gentle my ass - I'm going kicking and screaming into old age" Johansson
Gentlemen of the Salt,
First, I recognize and acknowledge the chastisement and advice.
Because that most of you have substantially more experience with this stuff than do I, your inputs do not fall on fallow ground. In my presentation of what I see/saw as a problem that should be easy to resolve, I did not intend to either demonstrate "attitude" or messenger target profile. :?
Although the subject material seems very trivial to present to the president, I will do so and hope that does not earmark a problem for me and my piddly efforts. The presentation of the potential solution will be "fair and equitable" and intended to same some time for all.
Although this interest is targeted to having my own vehicle on the salt, it is not my first trip to Bonneville nor many other national/international events.
As for the comments about the military: I was truly lucky enough to be an operator that somewhat specialized in getting over/around the red tape of chairborne folks that generated the slowdown of more effective field operations. Thank goodness it was skill level that established target acquisition and solutions, not filling out DOD/DOA Form XX. LOL :lol:
Thanx again for your interest/comments.
Regards to All,
HB2
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Think of the log book as a diary of what has happened to the car. It is like an airplane log book. The vehicle may have been through several owners, spun out a few times, set a record, etc. It is a legal doument that must be signed for and stays with the car. It is a lot better than trying to get information from somebody at the bar in the Peppermill who suffers from CRS! I myself have never been to the bar in the Peppermill, but do have a slight case of senior CRS! When I am working the line and send someone up to get a log book and the number sticker I tell them to let an inspector put the sticker on. We are up grading a car that had the sticker put on the steering box (a Franklin box with a nice supporting arm out to the right) and a great place that is easily seen to put the sticker. The box will not be going back in the car and the sticker can't be seen when it's under my work bench. The box is not for sale! Last year we inspected something like 320 cars in two days- How many does NASCAR do? Maybe 45 or 50?
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If the logbook and associated sticker was sold without immediate application to a real entry on the spot, it is in conflict with the reasoning behind it in the first place.
If you lose one it can be replaced and you can start over like a new vehicle.
What if an entrant just threw it away because the inspector from a previous event entered something the owner/ operator didn't like ?
Money is not the most important product for SCTA.
"The foolish make the best victims."
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Jack,
I read and re-read what you wrote and I still don't know what you meant.
Sorta like that old saw " I know you think you heard what I said, but that is not what I meant" kinda deal. :lol:
Anyhoo, since a previous suggestion was to think of the thing as an aircraft logbook......Now that is logbook information that I can understand. HA Fill it out as necessary and sqawk the items that the ground crew needs to address, 'cause pilots shouldn't touch stuff they don't understand. Such as the IFF does not work in OFF...LOL
I will learn as I go, but I am going slowly and evidently, foolishly as well! :-D
Do the guys with 50cc bikes even have to have a logbook? I guess it is written in much smaller font size?
Best Regards to All,
HB2
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Having been a pilot and user of an associated logbook since 1964, I have some idea of their value and how important it is to be used correctly.
Incorrect use not only defeats it's purpose but is dangerous to others.
Correct use will produce correct results.
Don't take that to be mean but take it to be sincere.
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Jack,
I read and re-read what you wrote and I still don't know what you meant.
It takes time :cry: , don't give up now :wink:. I've been reading his stuff for a couple years now and I'm probably up to a 30%-40% understanding rate :evil:.
I haven't given up and neither has Jack :-D,
Sum
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Their is quite a difference between playing dumb and a dumb play.
A good student will quickly spot the type and respond accordingly.
30 to 40 % is really pretty good. LOL.
An old timey racer once told me that he is 15 years old just like me with all the same desires.
The difference was that he had 50 years more experience with the time or the money to make it happen.
I didn't write it on my hand but I did reach a conclusion.
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Jack's replies are pretty obscure at times.
You just have to unscrew your head and put it on backwards like Jack's, then everything becomes crystal clear. :-D
Or was it the meds? Damn, I can't keep things straight.
If you are hip, and have been watching the scenery go by for the last 40 years or so, especialy the racing scenery, then Jack's comments make a lot more sense. Somebody should be collecting Jack's pithy sayings for a book. Good money making opportunity!
Just for giggles, I ran Jack through the Dialectizer:
Deir be quite some difference between playin' dumb and some dumb play. Slap mah fro! A baaaad student gots'ta quickly spot da damn type and respond acco'din'ly. Slap mah fro! 30 t'40 % be real there. LOL. An old timey raca' once told me dat he be 15 years old plum likes me wid all de same desires. De difference wuz dat he had 50 years mo'e 'espuh'ience wid de time o' de bre'd t'make it happen. 'S coo', bro. I dun didn't scribble it on mah' hand but ah' dun did reach some conclusion. 'S coo', bro.
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See? There ya go!
Ya ran it through the Dialectizer backwards to it's original format.
"The best way to learn to sail straight is to look at your wake. "
"The best way too learn to sail fast is to spot a fast one and trim your boat like his."
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Roger the comments on the importance of a properly used logbook. That is what started me up in the beginning - I am really nuts on check lists and those type details. Like to have fun as much as anybody and more than some, but like to get down on the details before the fun.
This forum is as much fun as bench racing, but without the need to wear seatbelts or hipboots.
Regards to All,
HB2
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Harold-don't foresake the hip boots. Or do so at your own peril.
rht
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Sure glad all I do is time them, It's a log book for a reason and the inspectors and the safety committee can use it as a learning curve, case history etc of the said vehicle. Even from the timing trailer I have contacted the roving inspector and the people at the inspection area to re -inspect a vehicle and make notes in the log book regarding a run and what the vehicle was doing to warrent a note and a follow up.
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Let?s see, what have we learned here:
Log Books are very important; they come with a matching vehicle tag; this tag should go in a location that is easy to see; the log and tag provide an ongoing vehicle history; they stay with the vehicle if it?s sold or transferred; make sure to get log filled out before summiting vehicle for inspection; you should have plenty of time to fill them out; they?re not complicated to fill out; in addition, you should start your own build history from the beginning of vehicle construction (with pictures) and check with the rules folks on what your doing ahead time and keep notes and correspondence of these communications; none of the last two items go in the Log book; you can?t get this official Log Book until vehicle is complete and just before submitting it for race inspection with your separate book containing build notes and pictures.
If you?re not the one who makes the rules you better learn how to play the game!
John
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John
You got it pretty close except the part about the ones that make the rules will be the ones most often feel they are above all that.
Part of your job is to keep them honest for the rest of the gamers.
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"you should start your own build history from the beginning of vehicle construction (with pictures) and check with the rules folks on what your doing ahead time and keep notes and correspondence of these communications; none of the last two items go in the Log book; you can?t get this official Log Book until vehicle is complete and just before submitting it for race inspection with your separate book containing build notes and pictures."
John,
If you are doing due diligence and keeping contact with tech and message boards you will be OK at tech. You can then add all correspondence, etc. to your log book binder.. At future events the complete package will be available for all concerned.
To all,
Please don't be concerned over the Log Book itself.
DW
PS - I asked someone in an earlier post to contact the SCTA President about releasing log books prior to the events. Any feedback?
DW
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Negative on the feedback/response.
Maybe there is a lot on his plate, or this stuff is too trivial in the grand scheme of things.
Rgds,
HB2
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Proper use of the logbook is a good subject for the inspectors annual training meeting.
More participation and publication by the various committee members would be a great help.
Misconceptions grow like weeds.
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I?m sure we?ve beat this subject up a lot more than it needed, (and a lot of other subjects here as well). However, for those of us approaching a first time Bonneville/LSR vehicle build (I speak here only for myself, but suspect I?m not alone) the more planning and preparation we do the more it lessens apprehension and anxiety. No matter how old and experienced you are in other areas, things like participating here and gaining the experience and wisdom of the LSR veterans who willingly share their valuable information helps your planning a great deal. The rule books, check sheets and even log books that can help point the way, are sought out eagerly as another step towards achieving the goal. No matter what the reasons, good or bad, not getting something you ?think? might help will always be disappointing.
John
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Well said!
It is indeed a given that none of us will get out of this life alive, but if we aknowledge that we are all in this life together, I think that the combined experience will be more fun. Something to be said for trying to help another guy have an easier time of it.
Regards,
HB2
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All of this benefits the person that thinks they know it but really doesn't.
Even bad advice will be challenged and more people will benefit from the information that usually winds up to be correct.
A one on one error (E-mail) can be nothing more than perpetuation of a mistake.
Even generic publication will net a lot more good with the additional eyes that will be exposed.
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Jack
Your one on one comment is well taken. Private advice that doesn?t stand the scrutiny of your peers is not very valuable.
John
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Hey wait !
This damn thing doesn't go all the way to Oregon does it ?
Ahh Chute, air foiled again. :roll:
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Be careful what you say I hear it gets as far as Northern Michigan, another state I have license plates from.
John
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OK then. Final entry from me on this subject with the following shared info. :roll:
I had sent some suggestions to Jim Lattin as requested and response was that logbook deal will remain the same as it has been and that would involve the inspectors like always as well. 8-)
Lattin also stated that all the information needed was in the rulebook for car build up. :lol:
However, he did state that he was having 500 more rulebooks printed and that they should be available before March. :wink: He also said that he was sorry that '07 rulebooks were not yet available. 8-)
I thought that it was nice of him to respond over such a small item and appreciated the information on the increase in number of the rulebooks. Besides, that gives some of you guys more opportunity to either barter for scotch or beer - even though with the increase in print, it will be more affordable scotch or beer (or both). :-D
Regards to All,
HB2
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OK then. Final entry from me on this subject with the following shared info. :roll:
I had sent some suggestions to Jim Lattin as requested and response was that logbook deal will remain the same as it has been and that would involve the inspectors like always as well. 8-)
Lattin also stated that all the information needed was in the rulebook for car build up. :lol:
However, he did state that he was having 500 more rulebooks printed and that they should be available before March. :wink: He also said that he was sorry that '07 rulebooks were not yet available. 8-)
I thought that it was nice of him to respond over such a small item and appreciated the information on the increase in number of the rulebooks. Besides, that gives some of you guys more opportunity to either barter for scotch or beer - even though with the increase in print, it will be more affordable scotch or beer (or both). :-D
Regards to All,
HB2
Well, I screwed up here - Lattin said BY March, NOT before March as I wrote - Slipping clutch on the coupling between brain and fingers I guess :-D
Rgds,
HB2
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And most of you heard it here first.
It's working !
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I don't know about the price of out of date Rule Books softening up HB. I'll bet the 2/3 book a year group goes to 4/5 just to keep the good scotch rolling in next winter. It boggles the mind just thinking of the additional places they could be keeping these extra copies. I'll bet Jack could come up with half a dozen without breaking a sweat!
John
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we get one as a member, and buy the rest, I found one on the lake bed. :-D
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Hey Harold,
The real answer on the availability of log books was listed here by Jack - but since he is aflicted with nonsense speak and rectal cranial inversion - most of us missed it.
When the tech inspectors are going through the car or bike - sometimes they find something that is "iffy" they will make a notation in the log book - to correct the issue before the next meet - but if they feel it's not critical - they may allow you to run at that meet. (thats what happened to us - they wrote a correction note oin our book - allowed us to runb that meet - we corrected their concerns - next time out - they looke in ther log book - saw the note - made sure we had addressesd the problem - and away we went.
Some yahoo with a correction notice they didn't like might just get a new logbook and try to sneak through again.
so far we've spent about 4 pages of text too long on this issue (really a nonissue)
Carl "anyone selling counterfit logbooks" Johansson
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"If you don't like the correct answer the first time, insisting it be said again won't change reality.
We can all find exceptions to the rule but those are still failures.
I could go on and get nasty but this time I an going to save it.
Lucky us.
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This is my first post. After reading this subject and reading all the posts
I had to put in my 2 cents. ( See my signature ) :wink: :-D
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When you purchase the log book, the chassis sticker comes with it. Be sure and put it on the chassis, not on the glove box door, JD got on to me for doing just that. Good luck and lots of MPH's.