Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Carl Johansson on January 03, 2007, 06:25:48 PM
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So following up the advise in this thread I tried to call them at the number provided by that Seldom Slim yahoo.
213-567-3998
operator says "unable to complete as dialed"
anyone know whats going on?
Carl Johansson
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Carl
I ran Ford aluminum 15" spacesaver wheels on the Merkur for over 10 years and never had a problem.
When deciding what to use, the word I got is that these wheels must pass every test that normal roadgoing wheels do. With that in mind I was at ease at 200+ speeds in a relatively heavy car..
4200# wet with me and all safety gear. I used the spacesaver only on the front as the backspacing was way off for the rear.
I would suggest though using the common 15 inch size and real LSR tires. The cost is certainly offset with peace of mind relative to safety.
Rick
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Thanks Rick -
I should be able to get em on all 4 wheels as the spares are standard for the car - I am waiting for Nate Jones to get back into town so I can figure out what are my choices for tires. I certainly will be running land speed tires - just a little concerned with the available options right now - so choosing the correct rim sizes may help aleviate the problem!
Carl Johansson
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Carl, I think you'll have to weld up those spacesaver wheels -- all the way around. I know that's what others have done, and then they pas tech. Ask a car guy for confirmation -- those of us on two wheels are often accused of not knowing everything (by folks who for sure don't, but that's another story).
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Carefully, spacesaver wheels are not always the same.
We got this discussion before.
A standard spacesaver wheel/tire is limited to 50 mph + a safety 20-25 mph - standard road and vehicle.
The most spacesaver wheels are produced to this limit - if you weld them, like Jon wrote, take care that they start not to be a "egg" shape at last.
The producer add normally a paper which shows the speed range...and you better trust this information.
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Carl, The Taylor wheels are the spacesaver with their centers welded inside. The spacesaver wheels have the beadlocks very close together so the tire will not come off the rim in a flat or very low air pressure event. FWIW Last year I tryed to find someone else to get my 15" wheels for the streamliner with the off set I needed. No one could make them for me and I got all kinds of BS stories about why it could not be done. Called Taylor Wheels and Chuck said " sure, no problem". Got them and they are great. Yes they are slow, and you have to keep on them to get them done in the time frame you need, but they are right when you get them. I won't even go into the ones I had made by another company and are junk. Just what I found out last year. Doug Odom in big ditch
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Called Taylor Wheels and Chuck said " sure, no problem". Got them and they are great. Doug Odom in big ditch
But this sound not to standard spacesaver wheels you find in everybody's Ford and GM or Chrysler..... :wink:
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Thanks Doug,
How do I contact them?
Carl Johansson
Carl, The Taylor wheels are the spacesaver with their centers welded inside. The spacesaver wheels have the beadlocks very close together so the tire will not come off the rim in a flat or very low air pressure event. FWIW Last year I tryed to find someone else to get my 15" wheels for the streamliner with the off set I needed. No one could make them for me and I got all kinds of BS stories about why it could not be done. Called Taylor Wheels and Chuck said " sure, no problem". Got them and they are great. Yes they are slow, and you have to keep on them to get them done in the time frame you need, but they are right when you get them. I won't even go into the ones I had made by another company and are junk. Just what I found out last year. Doug Odom in big ditch
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I googled and came up with this:
Taylor Made Wheels ? Land Speed Record racing wheels
9220 South Atlantic Blvd., Building #29
South Gate, CA 90280
(213) 567-3998
Don't know if that's what Doug had in mind, but maybe. . .
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Yes Jon, That was who I was talking about. They are in the rule book also.
Taylor made Wheels. 8-) Doug Odom in big ditch
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"Space saver wheels are tested to the same standards as normal road going wheels."
This statement came from the design and release engineer at Ford Motor Co in Dearborn in 1989.
The tires are speed and miles limited not the wheels.
I have no problem running fast on these wheels especially that rim runnout and concetricity tolerances are considerably better than many aftermarket parts. Except for spun rims of course.
Rick Byrnes
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"Space saver wheels are tested to the same standards as normal road going wheels."
This statement came from the design and release engineer at Ford Motor Co in Dearborn in 1989.
The tires are speed and miles limited not the wheels.
Rick Byrnes
Who ever this by Ford said, he don't know what he is talking about.
In Germany, the Ford produced cars got the information in the manual, that spacesaver wheels and tires are not allowed to be used with a faster speed than it shows in the manual - and also, that with other tire (with a higher speed range) on this wheels no faster speed is allowed than the shown speed limit in the manual, with other words, also the wheels are limit with this comment in the manual.
The USA got a speed limit which is in the range of the safety use of this wheels - in Germany half of the Autobahn is without speed limit, except the insurance speed limit which count for every Autobahn.
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Porkpie, Its a wheel, its round, very strong, made of steel with heavy duty centers welded in. I don't know if they use some light weight wheel in europe or not but these are stonger than my NASCAR wheels.The list of very fast cars that use this type of wheel is very long. I have not seen streamliners going over 300mph having any wheel issues, have you?
Doug Odom in big ditch
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Porkpie, Its a wheel, its round, very strong, made of steel with heavy duty centers welded in. I don't know if they use some light weight wheel in europe or not but these are stonger than my NASCAR wheels.The list of very fast cars that use this type of wheel is very long. I have not seen streamliners going over 300mph having any wheel issues, have you?
Doug Odom in big ditch
Doug,
not a problem with that. If this wheel is done the right way, okay.
But as I wrote before, standard (cheap) produced wheels may be got not the necessary standard - and than this discussion moved over to special produced wheels, which has nothing to do anymore with this spacesaver wheels we are talking in the beginning - in other words the discussion starts in two different directions - K-Mart wheels and high special produced wheels from a wheels specialist - thats very different.
So if someone spent the money on specialist produced one, alright - if he goes to K-Martor he like to use some old he got left over from his 10 years old Chevy......he better take care.
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Testing and publishing a limit for road use has more to do with manufactures liability than the real capabilities of the wheel beyond that and outside it's intended use.
If it works for us, we make it work.
You can't blame them if it doesn't.
NEXT
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I think the misunderstanding is the fact they don't want you to go faster than 50mph on the tire so they don't rate the wheel any faster.
Doug Odom in big ditch
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I think the misunderstanding is the fact they don't want you to go faster than 50mph on the tire so they don't rate the wheel any faster.
Doug Odom in big ditch
Honestly, with some of them I would not go faster than 50 mph - I remember some years ago - in the workshop of my tire dealer, they tried to balance one of this spacesaver wheels for a customer - needs him 150 gramm on one side, and on the other (on a different spot) another 75 gramm.............. :|
Well, great quality.... :wink:
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Bought 8 spacesaver rims at the pick and pull.
Picked the 4 best and welded them up.
Chamfered the lug seats to match the 45 degree tapers on the 1" lug nut.
Mounted up the M&H's fronts on the front.
Mounted up the MT fronts on the back.
Going to be real careful and drive slow. :wink:
Harv
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well first of all-,
when I was working my way through college I got a job as a shuttle van driver for saturn - when they were starting up - I would drive their employees around between their various meetings and buildings scattered around detroit and the suburbs. I had a load of engineers tell me very emphatically that the spacesaver tires were just as safe as a normal setup - and were tested the same - but because of the size and the funny look - they put the stickers on - limited liability and made sense to people looking at the puny things - but no basis in reality. BTW is it just me and my twisted sense of humor - why do I have this overwhelming desire to leave the warning stickers on the rim -?
remember we aren't interested in the tires - we are only interested in the rims - and it sounds like you taker the normal rim and weld up the cenmter - and you have a very strong safe rim -
am I reading this right guys?
and taylor made wheels will weld em up for me? is that what I'm reading?
Carl Johansson
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I don't know if I would run fast on the stock centers. The stock ones I have around the shop to roll cars around on have 10 holes in them for 2 different bolt patterns. That's one reason I have them around. There are gaps in the center in 4 places where it is welded to the outer rim. Taylor uses 5/16 steel centers and are welded 360 degrees. Then they are put into a large press and straightened.
Doug Odom in big ditch
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Carl,
It looks like Saturn and Ford engineers have said the same thing about the space saver wheels being the same strength as normal road going wheels. I guess the Ford engineer actually does know what he is doing. :=d
I'll bet the rim is stamped with the DOT numbers also, indicating they are made and tested to specific standards. (mine were/are)
I think your plans to use these wheels is just fine. Actually having Taylor put in solid 5/16" centers and insuring latteral runnout by stamping, or "coining" as production wheel manufacturers do is good insurance. My lakester and Liner wheels were made by Hoppy Hopkins, and needed a bit of straightening after welding. After making my latest wheels he indicated that he is retiring from the race wheel business. I have not talked to him for a number of years though.
Good luck with your project.
Rick
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I don't know if any of the rest of you have tried Marsh Racing Wheels in Arkansas or not, but Hooley is running their wheels on his Stude and I had them make up wheels for my lakester, untested at this point. I've never checked the run-out and I don't think Hooley has either but they have worked fine.
They were way less than anyplace else I found. I think about $60.00 a wheel and they made up 2 of mine with 4 hole centers to work with the Datsun rear I'm using. The front 2 are ford bolt pattern and they worked with me to get the best offset to help with the scrub radius.
They were quick and very responsive to helping us get what we needed.
You can find them here:
http://www.mrt-wheels.com/
If anyone else has worked with them and has been happy or unhappy I'd like to here about your experience.
c ya,
Sum
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Sorry guys but I just can't imagine anyone not checking the runout of a wheel of a land speed car. It should be done on the car at the spot it will be used...When perfectly true then mount the tire and check it again on the the car to make sure the mounting did not change it. Every steel wheel I have bought for LSR has been a bad and needed work to start out right.
Has any ever really looked at a spacer saver tire. The 15's look like M & H's to me. I've had to cut them off with a cut off wheel. I'll bet if one of them was shaved down, perfectly round and balenced you could go 300 on one. They have the stongest sidewall I've ever seen. Maybe some one will spin one someday and really tell us what they are worth.
IMO The 50 mph limit is for the cars differential, and miss sizing from stock diameter as they need to fit on any position an the stock car. Good Luck
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Diddo on everything JD says here. The spave savers are very similer to the M&H's but the space savers hold air better. Next trip to the barn I think I'll compare the weight.
Harv
Sorry guys but I just can't imagine anyone not checking the runout of a wheel of a land speed car. It should be done on the car at the spot it will be used...When perfectly true then mount the tire and check it again on the the car to make sure the mounting did not change it. Every steel wheel I have bought for LSR has been a bad and needed work to start out right.
Has any ever really looked at a spacer saver tire. The 15's look like M & H's to me. I've had to cut them off with a cut off wheel. I'll bet if one of them was shaved down, perfectly round and balenced you could go 300 on one. They have the stongest sidewall I've ever seen. Maybe some one will spin one someday and really tell us what they are worth.
IMO The 50 mph limit is for the cars differential, and miss sizing from stock diameter as they need to fit on any position an the stock car. Good Luck
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I weighed a M&H 22X15 tire made by the original makers.and a spacesaver made by US Royal with the same dimension. They weighed the same .. 12# on my scale.
I purchased 2 M&H 22X15 Drag fronts a year ago or so, from Summit. Summit advertised them as tubeless, nondirectional racing tires. When they came they said tube type and had a large directional arrow on them. I called Summit and they said they contacted the tire manufactuer and were told the tires were tubeless and non-directional. Yesterday I read the fine print and the not so fine print and it said DOT and maximum air pressure 32 #. These tires are now marketed by Interco Tire Corp., in Louisiana. I checked on line and Summit no longer carries The M&H front runners and has a hell of a sale on all of the M&H slicks. I'm going to call Summit in the morning and see what I can find out. Not a happy camper here. Anybody else know anything about this??
Harv
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Hitz,
I would call Nate SR. at Cowboy Tire Co. Signal Hill CA.
562-597-3369
562-597-3360 fx?
I have had this issue with other b :-)rand tires---mounted them--ran them 200 with out tubes---no issues---hope to run them 225----soon.