Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: kiwi belly tank on September 01, 2023, 01:51:30 PM
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS9P8rLV9bQ
-
Thanks for that, truly an interesting bit of history.
-
Toy man television had 2 episodes on this car. One was the shop in sugarhouse, utah where it was built. Now a snowboard shop which some of the first snowboards where made.
-
Wow!
-
Scarf & Goggles Youtube. Richard Noble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwayRU6XtXs
-
These are great, thanks for posting :cheers:
-
Scarf & Goggles Youtube. Richard Noble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwayRU6XtXs
Thanks. This is a great channel. Just watched the Bluebird CN7 and Goldenrod episodes.
Looking forward to the second part of the Richard Noble Thrust 2 video.
-
Scarf & Goggles John Cobb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqXzkJXZjZY
-
Scarf & Goggles, Thrust 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzr-cIZaS-o
-
A good story on Thrust 2 - however the narration continues to erroneously refer to The Blue Flame's absolute world land speed record as 622 mph. That was the slower mile flying start record, the absolute world land speed record set by The Blue Flame was 630.388 mph in the flying start kilometer. Noble did NOT exceed that by the required 1% speed. However, the absolute world land speed is the FASTEST FIA-recognized world record (mile OR kilometer), so the mile LSR became the absolute world land speed record in 1983. The Blue Flame's 630 mph remained the kilometer world record until 1997.
-
about Scarf & Goggles,
they surprise me again and again with the photo and movie material they come up in their videos....
I have no idea where they dig that stuff out...always very interesting for a historian like me....
in the other hand...
unfortunately, the comments they have are not always correct...some of them are simple wrong....bad search?...or fake legend they copy from other without challenging this information...
would be great if they could fix that issue
-
Once an error gets out there on the internet it is almost impossible to correct it. Too many "cut & paste" artists!
-
I must admit I've never seen any other number than 622 for Blue Flame!
Sid.
-
I must admit I've never seen any other number than 622 for Blue Flame!
Sid.
you be a victim, as so many, of all this self announced historian who writes on places like Wikipedia or on own webpages
wrong or fake information, as they haven't the clue for five cents....
Historic, and especially here the Speed Record World, is a mess as so many legends and not correct facts are written and published...once published, the next guy makes
copy & past, and here again the wrong information can be read....
instead of checking the real facts....or shut up when they don't know right....
my interest in speed starts in 1970 (with the Blue Flame) and I went into historic in 1975....the archive needs meanwhile more than 160 square feet...not counting the GB's of datas
on my PC world....before I write a comment I check the facts....or I tell my information and ask...can someone confirm this facts or did someone got a different information....
the biggest issue in Speed Historic....other than sport like American Football....if something happens, there was no written documentations...or what found his way on paper
was written by people who normally wrote about American Football......
as a journalist you can't live from Speed Records article.....
in the other hand....if you create articles or videos about Speed Records....you be responsible for the facts....make your homework right.....
and to all, who never have heard from the 630 mph record....you be in good company....the Smithsonian didn't know it, too :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap
-
Here is the FIA documentation of The Blue Flame records in 1970. Unfortunately, the American Gas Association PR guys immediately publicized the mile record speed. Since Gary Gabelich refused to sign a contract with Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company, they continued to publicize Breedlove.
-
Here is the USAC mile record certification. The PR guy loved to write about the "miracle mile". Nobody in the USA knows what a kilometer is. Joe Petrali was very upset when he saw the 622 publicity. He called me to alert me about the error, but too late. I have been trying ever since to correct that historic speed record.
Read the book, SPEEDQUEST for the whole story.
-
I must admit I've never seen any other number than 622 for Blue Flame!
Sid.
you be a victim, as so many, of all this self announced historian who writes on places like Wikipedia or on own webpages
wrong or fake information, as they haven't the clue for five cents....
Historic, and especially here the Speed Record World, is a mess as so many legends and not correct facts are written and published...once published, the next guy makes
copy & past, and here again the wrong information can be read....
instead of checking the real facts....or shut up when they don't know right....
Could part of the problem be related to human nature or selective memory? Sometimes you talk to a person and ask them about their past records and they tell you something different or inflated as to what they really did accomplish. Why? I have no idea. It could be memory loss, inflating their ego figuring no one would question them, etc. I just brush it off to human nature.
25 years ago I sold a junk blower but cosmetically perfect to a guy who was building a static display car. Years later I saw him with the car on display at a race. He did not recognize me, and was talking to someone when I walked up. I did not say anything until they were finished with their conversation. While listening to their conversation, he was telling this person how he used to run the car at different races etc. Truth was he never ever ran that car. Bought it as a roller and put a junk but cosmetically correct motor in it. This guy was the nicest guy you would ever meet and I would have never thought I would hear what I heard. Sad part is the other person believed what he was hearing.
Tom G.
-
Tom,
spot on what you saying.
the human factor is another important point...
especially when you asked the involved person, when a record was set (or not)....
here begins very often than the time of fairy tales....
and very often, it is just the ego, to make the story bigger as it was in reality.....you have to ask yourself....why...isn't it not great that you had set a record....
if this person now telling his story to a journalist who has not the clue for five cents, as he normally writes about American Football....
the story is published...the people read it...and here is the legend....but not the real fact....
the big problem here, is, that the most historian are never be at the place as a witness....
I'm historian and chronist....but I only write an article when I was at the place and saw it with my own eyes....or if it's a long time ago story....than, when I got the facts, confirmed, in my hand...
I wished that the other writer would think about before they type the first letter.....
-
Here's a video I saw a while back where the "622" speed is shown on the car. That number is so entrenched in history I expect it'll never get corrected.
Sid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0ux4vT1bQ4
-
The AGA sponsor had that painted on the car immediately after we set the absolute world land speed record (630.388mph), still believing their incorrect PR story. The Blue Flame was toured in the USA and EU for a little over one year, then parked outdoors behind the Institute of Gas Technology in Chicago until being sent off to the Sinsheim Museum via a European donor. Fortunately, the Sinsheim Museum signage and other promotional materials describe the car's absolute world record as 1,014.686 kilometers per hour. Since only English-speaking countries (USA, UK, NZ, AUS) even know what a mile is - most of the world has the correct speed. That stupid 622 on the car was never removed by the new owners.
-
The AGA sponsor had that painted on the car immediately after we set the absolute world land speed record (630.388mph), still believing their incorrect PR story. The Blue Flame was toured in the USA and EU for a little over one year, then parked outdoors behind the Institute of Gas Technology in Chicago until being sent off to the Sinsheim Museum via a European donor. Fortunately, the Sinsheim Museum signage and other promotional materials describe the car's absolute world record as 1,014.686 kilometers per hour. Since only English-speaking countries (USA, UK, NZ, AUS) even know what a mile is - most of the world has the correct speed. That stupid 622 on the car was never removed by the new owners.
Dick, I'm this Friday in the museum in Sinsheim...will talk to them if they can write also the 630 mph at the side.....OK
-
I must admit I've never seen any other number than 622 for Blue Flame!
Sid.
you be a victim, as so many, of all this self announced historian who writes on places like Wikipedia or on own webpages
wrong or fake information, as they haven't the clue for five cents....
Historic, and especially here the Speed Record World, is a mess as so many legends and not correct facts are written and published...once published, the next guy makes
copy & past, and here again the wrong information can be read....
instead of checking the real facts....or shut up when they don't know right....
Could part of the problem be related to human nature or selective memory? Sometimes you talk to a person and ask them about their past records and they tell you something different or inflated as to what they really did accomplish. Why? I have no idea. It could be memory loss, inflating their ego figuring no one would question them, etc. I just brush it off to human nature.
25 years ago I sold a junk blower but cosmetically perfect to a guy who was building a static display car. Years later I saw him with the car on display at a race. He did not recognize me, and was talking to someone when I walked up. I did not say anything until they were finished with their conversation. While listening to their conversation, he was telling this person how he used to run the car at different races etc. Truth was he never ever ran that car. Bought it as a roller and put a junk but cosmetically correct motor in it. This guy was the nicest guy you would ever meet and I would have never thought I would hear what I heard. Sad part is the other person believed what he was hearing.
Tom G.
This is a normal part of human memory (memory reconsolidation) especially for stories that are retold over many years. The story changes gradually, usually placing the teller closer to the action, and in a better light. The teller often fully believes the revised version of events. The news anchor Brian Williams was caught in one of these situations and lost his job. It happens to public figures a lot. This is part of the reason that old first-hand memories are not given as much weight in court. -Dean
-
The AGA sponsor had that painted on the car immediately after we set the absolute world land speed record (630.388mph), still believing their incorrect PR story. The Blue Flame was toured in the USA and EU for a little over one year, then parked outdoors behind the Institute of Gas Technology in Chicago until being sent off to the Sinsheim Museum via a European donor. Fortunately, the Sinsheim Museum signage and other promotional materials describe the car's absolute world record as 1,014.686 kilometers per hour. Since only English-speaking countries (USA, UK, NZ, AUS) even know what a mile is - most of the world has the correct speed. That stupid 622 on the car was never removed by the new owners.
Dick, I'm this Friday in the museum in Sinsheim...will talk to them if they can write also the 630 mph at the side.....OK
:clap :clap
-
The AGA sponsor had that painted on the car immediately after we set the absolute world land speed record (630.388mph), still believing their incorrect PR story. The Blue Flame was toured in the USA and EU for a little over one year, then parked outdoors behind the Institute of Gas Technology in Chicago until being sent off to the Sinsheim Museum via a European donor. Fortunately, the Sinsheim Museum signage and other promotional materials describe the car's absolute world record as 1,014.686 kilometers per hour. Since only English-speaking countries (USA, UK, NZ, AUS) even know what a mile is - most of the world has the correct speed. That stupid 622 on the car was never removed by the new owners.
Dick, I'm this Friday in the museum in Sinsheim...will talk to them if they can write also the 630 mph at the side.....OK
Ah, but what number will you ask them to write?
... 630.388 (as it was in 1970)
... or 630.478 (as the FIA publish today)?
cromag :clap :dhorse: :clap :deal
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
-
since 2013 is a big canvas photo on the side of the Blue Flame. Dick got me the scan of this two photos, I restored the photos, combine them and produced this canvas
Dick choose to use the FIA number for that canvas...and this number will be used when we add it to the 1014 km/h number
-
:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap
-
Calculating the flying start record is subject to rounding errors from kilometers to miles per hour. The distance timed was 1 kilometer. The average elapsed time listed is 3.5485 seconds. Since the timer measured milliseconds, the last digit "5" was dropped by FIA, giving 3.548 as the divisor. 3600 (seconds per hour) divided by 3.548 (seconds per kilometer) yields 1014.656 kilometers per hour. The standard conversion miles per kilometer is .621371. 1014.656 kph times .621371 miles per kilometer yields 630.478 miles per hour. The USAC/FIA timing officials reported the kilometer record speed in miles per hour, at 630.388 miles per hour in 1970. The conversion they used in the calculation is not shown in the record document. At any rate, 6 significant figures speed is not realistically precise with the 4 significant figures for the measured time in seconds. 630.388 mph is on the certified USAC/FIA record document.
-
630.388 mph is calculated from elapsed time of 3.5485 seconds.
630.478 mph is calculated from elapsed time of 3.548 seconds.
So far as I can tell, the FIA used the '5' in the 4th decimal place in 1970.
Today the FIA prefer to ignore the '5' (or truncate from 4dp to 3dp).
-
Obviously, that is why they demand a 1% margin for establishing a new rrecord.
-
Actually, the 1% minimum ibncreaase rule was dripped sweveeral years agio abd is no longer in effect.
Jeff in Boise
-
with the 2011 season the 1 percent rule was history, after Mr 1 Percent....David Tremayne gave up....he blocked the end of the 1 percent for a long time...
-
with the 2011 season the 1 percent rule was history, after Mr 1 Percent....David Tremayne gave up....he blocked the end of the 1 percent for a long time...
Tremayne is a writer. How did he do that?
-
He's a member of the FIA Land Speed Records Commission (and has been for quite a few years).
-
with the 2011 season the 1 percent rule was history, after Mr 1 Percent....David Tremayne gave up....he blocked the end of the 1 percent for a long time...
Tremayne is a writer. How did he do that?
David is the FIA Speed Record represent for GB....
David became involved when Posthumus choose him to take over his work...so, David was at Black Rock when Richard set the record and wrote a book about the time of the record
attempt...than, David, used Posthumus Land Speed Record book and up dated it with newest activities....later, in 2006, he wrote the book about the JCB record at Bonneville, just as
example....in 2010, during the Shootout at Bonneville, the FIA had for the first time his yearly gathering in Wendover, I was as a guest of Dave Petrali, there....Dave is the son of Joe Petrali and
he took over the job as the chief timer for FIA attempts....David Tremayne was with us at the salt at the beginning of the Shootout
-
David Tremayne co-authored my book SPEEDQUEST - INSIDE THE BLUE FLAME in 2020 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of our setting the absolute world land speed record. He was very supportive of my amateur writing. Definitely the English-language authority on land speed records following Cyril Posthumus.
-
The AGA sponsor had that painted on the car immediately after we set the absolute world land speed record (630.388mph), still believing their incorrect PR story. The Blue Flame was toured in the USA and EU for a little over one year, then parked outdoors behind the Institute of Gas Technology in Chicago until being sent off to the Sinsheim Museum via a European donor. Fortunately, the Sinsheim Museum signage and other promotional materials describe the car's absolute world record as 1,014.686 kilometers per hour. Since only English-speaking countries (USA, UK, NZ, AUS) even know what a mile is - most of the world has the correct speed. That stupid 622 on the car was never removed by the new owners.
Dick, I'm this Friday in the museum in Sinsheim...will talk to them if they can write also the 630 mph at the side.....OK
Dick, it's kicked on....I talked with the responsible person, they will take care :cheers:
-
Scarf & Goggles Thrust 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=588lOv8i6Tc
-
Hi Dick,
as promised, I took care that the 630 mph record is well shown at the Blue Flame display.
Today they add the numbers and Sofia, she was so kind and done that job, sent me two photos....see attachment
hope you be happy with that.
The AGA sponsor had that painted on the car immediately after we set the absolute world land speed record (630.388mph), still believing their incorrect PR story. The Blue Flame was toured in the USA and EU for a little over one year, then parked outdoors behind the Institute of Gas Technology in Chicago until being sent off to the Sinsheim Museum via a European donor. Fortunately, the Sinsheim Museum signage and other promotional materials describe the car's absolute world record as 1,014.686 kilometers per hour. Since only English-speaking countries (USA, UK, NZ, AUS) even know what a mile is - most of the world has the correct speed. That stupid 622 on the car was never removed by the new owners.
Dick, I'm this Friday in the museum in Sinsheim...will talk to them if they can write also the 630 mph at the side.....OK
-
Thank you for that. I get really pissed every time historians cite the 622mph mile record as the absolute world record, comparing to Richard Noble, Craig Breedlove, and others. I was hoping the 622 on the tail fin would also be corrected. Probably too much to ask.
-
OOPS - my error the 622.407 is on the cockpit fairing. At 85, my memory is not always correct. The IGT PR guys were so invested in their pre-record publicity calling the record the "miracle mile", they ignored the faster kilometer absolute record. They never corrected it. When Joe Petrali saw the error, a few days after the record run, he called me asking for the correction. IGT and AGA didn't care at that point.
-
Well, Dick,
that's the way they got the Blue Flame...and the car was never restored since the first day they had the Blue Flame on display...
also, maybe you saw....they used the original kilo record...not the later changed version
the later one is on the canvas....this canvas is now for more than 10 years on the side of the Blue Flame... :friday
if you look closer, the canvas is now back up front close to the rear wheel...for a while it was on the back side
by the way, the most people are not aware about the 622 mph on the bodywork....the now solution directly by the video screen...they will understood when they read the information
Thank you for that. I get really pissed every time historians cite the 622mph mile record as the absolute world record, comparing to Richard Noble, Craig Breedlove, and others. I was hoping the 622 on the tail fin would also be corrected. Probably too much to ask.
-
Is that my video interview on the back wall? We did that in 2020.
-
Yes, that's your interview....and plus more photo material on display
Is that my video interview on the back wall? We did that in 2020.