Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: panchop on October 24, 2006, 09:31:26 PM
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I purchased an old bike with a modified drag bike frame and a basicly stock Z1 engine. So even though it's a production engine it wasn't produced for this custom frame. Do I have that right and if so does that mean it must be classed as a modified engine?
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As the rules stand if your frame was not manufactured by Kawasaki you are in special construction not modified. The rules state that for the modified class the engine and frame manufacturer must be the same. That your engine isn't modified is irrelevant. Still, a stock Z1 should zip along nicely.
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All engines are modified. (At least if you want a record.) The only limitations on production engines are that it be "stock appearing." The insides are almost limitless for modification. If you are running a production motorcycle then the production engine rules apply.
In your case with a custom frame, the engine is unlimited. You can run a stock Vespa or a fire breathing Harley.
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correct... modified or "A" frame = anthing goes for the motor! except no car motors.
kent
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But if the frame is just a partially cut up kawa frame it might be eligible for Modified, depending on how and where it is modified correct?
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But if the frame is just a partially cut up kawa frame it might be eligible for Modified, depending on how and where it is modified correct?
Correct Hans,
Per my understanding of the SCTA Rulebook:
The frame must be built to oe frame specs or be an oem replacement in a similiar configuration to the original specs. This is not limited to streetbikes, and can be dirtbikes or race only bikes as long as it was done by a manufacturer(if self built then it must be based on a street bike frame). And at least 50%(who gets to guess at that part) of this frame as it was built by the oe(from swingarm area forward) must be retained.
Per 2006 ECTA Rulebook(i take for granted all statements or quesions in here are concerning SCTA, but thought I'd throw this out there anyway as there is a diffference):
As long as it's based on an oe frame you are good to go. Any bracketry and braces as well as steering head angle(rake) can still be modified as it can with SCTA.
Todd
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example... we took a CX500 turbo, cut the motor out, turned it sideways to get rid of the driveshaft, built a jackshaft, back halved the whole rear end, installed GSXR rear swingarm and fabricated upper and lower shock mounts, fabed total rear seat supportsand frame rails, cut the neck off changed the rake and installed a GSXR front end. lots of other stuff like Charlie Toy bodywork different turbo and fuel system and STILL set a record in "M" class.
read the rule book and call the tech guys.
kent
ps make sure you have a metal chain gard and metal valve stems.
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:?So A-P or M-P (legal per last sentence of bold type in 7.D.4) would be valid frame and engine classifications, but yet find no vehicle entry data codes in Appendix A, and also no established records........so the question remains is production engine classification in special construction or modified frame(s)? :-o
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:?So A-P or M-P (legal per last sentence of bold type in 7.D.4) would be valid frame and engine classifications, but yet find no vehicle entry data codes in Appendix A, and also no established records........so the question remains is production engine classification in special construction or modified frame(s)? :-o
Production applies to the motorcycle configuration, not the engine. There are no A- production or M- production just like there is no sidecar production or streamliner production. A production bike has to look stock.... no after market exhaust or fairings etc. The engine can be modified, as long as the changes are not visable, ie pistons & cams changes are ok but you can't put a turbo on it or nitrous. Also, to run in production you must run gasoline, not fuel. So what you describe would be an A or M class bike, depending on what type of frame & how much the frame has been altered.
Production classes I've seen are:
P-P production bike
P-PP production pushrod
P-V production vintage
P-PB production blown
P-PPB production pushrod blown
Hope that helps.
Matt
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Production applies to the motorcycle configuration, not the engine. There are no A- production or M- production just like there is no sidecar production or streamliner production. A production bike has to look stock.... no after market exhaust or fairings etc. The engine can be modified, as long as the changes are not visable, ie pistons & cams changes are ok but you can't put a turbo on it or nitrous. Also, to run in production you must run gasoline, not fuel. So what you describe would be an A or M class bike, depending on what type of frame & how much the frame has been altered.
Production classes I've seen are:
P-P production bike
P-PP production pushrod
P-V production vintage
P-PB production blown
P-PPB production pushrod blown
Hope that helps.
Matt
[/quote]
Matt,
I agree with you in so far as the first P applies to the bike, must be stock appearing, etc, and also agree with limitations on the engine, must use OEM heads, Carbs, Jugs, and case(s) no blown unless factory, no fuel.
Where we disagree is that
P-P is production/production (for production bike {i.e. class} with production engine {i.e. engine class})
clearly by rule qutoed previously a special construction frame or a modified frame (iaw with current rules) with a production engine would be most properly be
A-P or M-P, clearly a class engine combination currently allowed for by rule(s), but yet no designated vehicle entry ID or records near as I can tell.
By rule 7.D.4 (pg 99, 2006 edition SCTA) engine class "P" allowed in all frame classes except "SC" which seems real fair to the factory harleys that had a factory sidecar. Perhaps this rule is a typo-inversion???
So we all rushing out to buy factory fresh production engines and sticking in modified and special construction frames?
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Production applies to the motorcycle configuration, not the engine. There are no A- production or M- production just like there is no sidecar production or streamliner production. A production bike has to look stock.... no after market exhaust or fairings etc. The engine can be modified, as long as the changes are not visable, ie pistons & cams changes are ok but you can't put a turbo on it or nitrous. Also, to run in production you must run gasoline, not fuel. So what you describe would be an A or M class bike, depending on what type of frame & how much the frame has been altered.
Production classes I've seen are:
P-P production bike
P-PP production pushrod
P-V production vintage
P-PB production blown
P-PPB production pushrod blown
Hope that helps.
Matt
Matt,
I agree with you in so far as the first P applies to the bike, must be stock appearing, etc, and also agree with limitations on the engine, must use OEM heads, Carbs, Jugs, and case(s) no blown unless factory, no fuel.
Where we disagree is that
P-P is production/production (for production bike {i.e. class} with production engine {i.e. engine class})
clearly by rule qutoed previously a special construction frame or a modified frame (iaw with current rules) with a production engine would be most properly be
A-P or M-P, clearly a class engine combination currently allowed for by rule(s), but yet no designated vehicle entry ID or records near as I can tell.
By rule 7.D.4 (pg 99, 2006 edition SCTA) engine class "P" allowed in all frame classes except "SC" which seems real fair to the factory harleys that had a factory sidecar. Perhaps this rule is a typo-inversion???
So we all rushing out to buy factory fresh production engines and sticking in modified and special construction frames?
[/quote]
I might be wrong or not understand your question, but I think the "P" you are refering to in those classes denotes "pushrod".
c ya,
Sum
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If the question is "can you run a production 'class' engine in a non-production frame?" then the answer is No, you can't.
For years the rule book has not explicitly stated that you can not but it was clarified last Friday night at the board-reps meeting when the new M/C rules were presented and voted on. New wording will be added to the 2007 book stating that production class engines can only be run in production class frames (or some such text).
There are no records set in this manner so it was treated as a clarification only.
john
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The rules are getting stupid faster than they are getting fast.
Hard and fast rules are the best.
Changes that answer non problems are the worst.
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Apparentely this is a problem or the question would not have been asked.
Same rules - more words
DW
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KISS
Simply put, an engine that meets all of the rules as a production motor can run in any frame class including streamliner.
You would be giving away the performance advantages available to the other classes above Production frame limitations but there is no rule against it yet.
I can see the complication of the rules is even starting to confuse the more experienced.
They are authored by those with none and won't answer up anyway.
GO FIGURE
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>>>>
Matt,
I agree with you in so far as the first P applies to the bike, must be stock appearing, etc, and also agree with limitations on the engine, must use OEM heads, Carbs, Jugs, and case(s) no blown unless factory, no fuel.
Where we disagree is that
P-P is production/production (for production bike {i.e. class} with production engine {i.e. engine class})
clearly by rule qutoed previously a special construction frame or a modified frame (iaw with current rules) with a production engine would be most properly be
A-P or M-P, clearly a class engine combination currently allowed for by rule(s), but yet no designated vehicle entry ID or records near as I can tell.
By rule 7.D.4 (pg 99, 2006 edition SCTA) engine class "P" allowed in all frame classes except "SC" which seems real fair to the factory harleys that had a factory sidecar. Perhaps this rule is a typo-inversion???
So we all rushing out to buy factory fresh production engines and sticking in modified and special construction frames?
[/quote]
I can just hear the noise if we allowed a different class just by running a "production" engine in any class. Let's see....
15 displacment sizes
A, M, SC, SCS & S classes
Regular, blown, pushrod, pushrod blown, vintage, vintage blown.
Gas & fuel
What's that... 600 new classes?
I run what would classify as a production engine in my sidecar, but it wouldn't be any different because it is vintage. I know that there are not that many different "production" engines built.. I have never heard of a production blown vintage engine, but it still would be overwhelming.
I think the production class was made to make it easy for people to run their stock bike for a record, nothing more.
Matt
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If you look at page 101 0f the 2006 rulebook you will see there is a modified production class. You can read into the rules whatever you want (as quite a few do). The fact remains there is no class for a special constuction (A) frame/production motor. A special construction frame puts you in special construction and the state of tune the motor is in is irrelevant. If the frame is a modified Kawasaki then you ill fit into modified production (M). If you want to run a production motor that would be classified as a production motor you will need original carbs fitted, original airbox, and unmodified exhaust system. Which I would think are not fitted to your drag bike. If, as I think, your frame is non Kawasaki then you are in A and you will be free to lean on your motor as hard as you like. There already exists more classes than motorcycles in this world. The last thing needed is 300 more classes.
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Touche', all is apparently moot now w/rule "clarification" (dubious :x imho).
Production blown motors (vintage DKW) or turbo'd yamaha (XJS or something like that)
Ciao
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I think I see what you are reading. Rule 7.D.1 designated class and 7.D.2 designated engine class. It might have been a little clearer but the frame and engine classes are not a "pick 'n mix". Certain engine classes go with certain frame classed. Production has always been just that, production. If you read the production rules they allow very little change in the exterior appearance but if you read "Any performance modifications must be out of view" then you have a lot to play with in the engine internals. Your drag bike looks like it would be a lot of fun. Come join us.
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Production engine isn't even production. It's "Stock External Appearance". The inside of the engine is almost wide open to modification. "OEM cylinders, heads, and crankcases". But it doesn't restrict what you can do with those.
But the whole idea is to provide a relatively low dollar class that can be done with a relatively stock production motorcycle.
The concept of carrying this engine to another frame class makes no sense. The idea is to set a speed record, not see what kind of record you can set with some odd ball combination and call it a speed record.
Once you get out of the production class, and please let's ignore the vintage and pushrod stuff, you have G, F, BG and BF engine classes. These are wide open, no holds barred racing engines. We don't need anything else.
If there is a record set that is slower than P-P, then it's cherry picking. If the record on fuel is slower than gas, blown slower than unblown, then it's a non-competitive record. Record yes, but not in my book. If you can't get your fuel bike to go faster than the gas record you have work to do.
If you think you can run M-P or A-P, try page 193 "Appendix A - Vehicle Entry Data Codes" You need to enter a number on the entry form that relates to one of the classes listed. You can't enter anything else. The only MP you're going to run is Modified Pickup.
If you want to race in the fastest form of racing, then look for the fastest record and break it. If you can't do that, then lawn mower racing might be what you are looking for.
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Geez Dean, relax !
Not everybody starts out with a state of the art "Ironing Board" like in your picture.
Or is it just a copy of Mc Carty's from long ago ? :wink: LOL
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Oh MaGod! I've reached the seventh state of Nirvana! Jack told me to relax! My Hero!
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well since i asked the question let me say I was just making sure i understand how it worked. since i can't seem to actually get a rule book it's the only way i know how to find out. I might add that the only LSR event i have attended so far was the first BUBs event. it had RC motorcycles racing with people on them, a streamliner that appeared to be towed by another vehicial and released coasting thru the traps as an opfficial run and people setting records on bikes that where poping , spitting and hardly running . Bikes that where in nonstreamlined classes that appeared to be partial streamliners by any reading of the rules i could figure.That being the case I didn't think my question was that out of line since it was obvious to me that i was not comprehending how the rules where working or being applied. I assume this is because of my lack of experiance so am just double checking but i certinly apoligize if i have offended any of you .
Greg
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Greg
The first BUB meet was the worst disaster you might have ever seen and the items you mention are just part of the problems they brought on themselves.
For your eye to catch those things wrong is a real tribute to your sense of fair play and keen observation.
You are the kind of people the sport needs and that was in no way how it should have been conducted.
Part of the problem around here is things can be over answered and that creates more confusion.
It is not much different than a strange language without a translation guide.
Your laydown bike is just fine for your first experience at running Bonneville.
The biggest handicap is not the speed, but the little tech Do Dads that can trip you up and make it a bad experience.
I wish there was someone I knew in PHX that I could put you with but Bryan H. was the last one.
I know a few Drag Racers that I would like to see out there but you would do well to get with somebody that has run there before.
I wish a real set of rules were available to you but SCTA is still clinging to the 60s with regard to many of those types of things.
Send me your mailing address via PM or e-mail and I will make sure you get at least a photocopy of the MC section for 06 that will give you most of what you need.
The rest of the joining and entry information is going to be available around here in plenty of time for you to respond.
Most of the time they get it right at this place but the multiple answers are like having a whole class answer in their own words at the same time.
It is often a lot like herding cats.
Jack
jackdolan@san.rr.com
858-292-4444
PS
You must know that Chris is my little brother and always will be. LOL
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Ahhh, No sweat Jack. To many long days at the hospitial this week had me feeling whinny and sensitive last night. I certinly appreciate all the help i have gotton from this site already and especially from you. My project bike is currently at sams house. He is going to build me two engines for it as I decided i have never owned a stock anything let alone bring one to bonniville and I didnt feel like starting now. Sam will help me get it together. He will be coming out with me to bonniville with it when we are done. I don't have any locals who have done this but I have rounded up a couple other guys to come out with me and give it a shot as you suggested. Sam has pointed out that it's racing and all race teams need to crawl before they can walk. Something I belive you also mentioned in our last phone call. I will take you up on the rule book and maybe call with more questions as I can't seem to even figure out what the correct record is for 1000cc A/G or A/AG which I belive to be the class i will be in.
Thanks
Greg
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I might have kidnapped Sam and Norris myself but I trust you will handle it.
Jack