Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: distributorguy on April 16, 2016, 09:52:19 PM
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There was talk about pumping brine all summer and raising the course 2 1/2" for next year (no 2016 racing.) Is there a cut-off date when that decision could or would be made, or was that just "talk"?
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I think pumping has stopped now.
FREUD
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Tom Burkland put that out as a proposal at the PRI show starting at about 58 minutes into this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkuxy1fc5OI
The non-binding show of hands indicated a fair degree of support. Unfortunately, any such change would have required a timely presentation of the draft proposal by the Alliance based on an engineering analysis they have been putting together and agreement between the mining concern and the BLM - a draft that we were told would be available 6 weeks after the show. It was announced on April 7th, although the Alliance website makes no mention of that, nor did they provide a copy to those whose support they are trying to encourage.
Any opportunity to investigate and/or make the case to implement the proposal has languished, and now that we're pushing into May, any such proposal has to be tabled for 2016.
Gut level, I think Tom's idea is solid, and that an opportunity for 2016 has been missed.
Added - The Alliance met on March 25 and the the proposal was to be finalized on April 1st. Has anybody seen it, and would they be willing to share it?
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pump all summer? That was really a proposal, and how would that raise the level of the salt 2 inches. Some times I wonder if people really think this stuff through. I find it interesting that the people making these proposals are never out here looking and researching the flats through out the year. They only show up if the press is here, and they have meeting everywhere but at the site of their interest. Hmmm just makes me a sad panda, what I have really been trying to handle this past two years are all the negitive vibs from outside our area. The Bonneville salt flats need help, but by people who have a real interest, and also needs local support, because that where all the real difference will happen.
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Mike, despite what a few have said on here previously, WE ARE ON YOUR SIDE. What 98% of Us want is what You also want.
Please try to understand that probably 90% of the L.S.R. community has every extra penny they can afford invested in their Racing Program. Some completed their Race Vehicles three years ago and have not yet had the opportunity to even walk on the Salt. We racers with the help of The Utah Alliance and area politicians and hopefully Yourself, are working hard to work out a fix that is good for everyone.
We realize as do You that without local support our efforts most likely will be doomed or at the very least be much harder.
Many of Us patronize Your business at every event and if You haven't taken it down there is a picture of My 53' Stude hanging on your wall.
My point here is this: There will always be well meaning folks who don't agree with the majority. I have been one of those who are willing to take on the masses however NOT on this latest Proposal between Save The Salt/The Utah Alliance, The BLM, Intrepid and various other groups involved.
Every one involved has worked very hard to try and resolve our differences and I would ask that ALL of Us, You and I and even the dissenters to just step back and let the process work its way forward.
No one person is going to solve or change a da*n thing by themselves nor agree with every one else's opinion. It is of no help to anybody to add fuel to the fire.
We are all in this together.
Respectfully, Bob Drury
builder, owner, driver
Old Stud Racing
#394 A/CFALT 53' Studebaker
15 Year entrant at Speedweek
2 Year entrant at World Finals
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Mike, if the idea had not been proffered by Tom Burkland, someone we both know has been integral in the restoration efforts, I doubt it would have been taken seriously. He brings to the discussion we attended long experience and an engineer's mindset.
You're on the ground with this and involved in creating a solution - where was the fly in the ointment on this idea? Was it even looked at? If it's not viable, why is it not viable?
We're on the same side, but we've been given a plethora of statistics and information, and have been largely left to our own devices to draw a conclusion as to the correct method to proceed. I've been waiting to see what the Alliance has put together for 3 months - I want to support a concerted effort - and my senator is still waiting for me to send a copy of that proposal to her. When asked about proposals, those leading this effort tell us to read the information. When asked for a leaderships' opinion or plan - we get nothing.
I've read through the documents provided - LOTS of information there - sufficient in quantity that any dozen reasonable people could easily come up with 12 different solutions, all with different degrees of viability to succeed.
I'll jump behind and push for any viable plan put forward. But there's no plan yet.
I'm sad, too.
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I didn't think this post would start another argument. I guess it just exposes a little more of the knife edge we are ALL dancing on. The goal was just to find out the likelihood of restoration efforts stopping races this year, as opposed to the always indecisive weather (and track conditions) excluded. I just want to race, on good salt - like everyone else. :?
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Dist. Guy, Whether or not some people on this site care for Land Speed Louise, No one can deny that She will keep Us informed and have the latest information posted on this site before anyone else. She work's Her patootie off promoting this sport and is the publicist for The Utah Alliance.
As I said in a previous post, the rest of us need to ready our musket's and when it's time Louise will yell "CHARGE". As Midget said, for now We can continue to keep our local States Senator's and Representatives in the loop and urge them to become educated on the subject. Bob
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It might work best to raise the salt level gradually over a period of years rather than all at once. The incremental approach allows the lower layers to season and consolidate before the upper layers are added.
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I'll probably get shouted down and called out for even putting in my $.02, but I've got nothing to lose, so here goes. :dhorse:
I don't know why this option seems to draw the ire of some folks. It seems apparent to me the only viable plan is pumping in the summer.
We know that they can't pump a fully saturated brine due to the excessive wear on the pumping equipment. Therefore any brine pumped is not fully saturated. If pumping is done in the winter, when the flats are already flooded with cold fresh water from rain and snow run off from the mountains, then it is diluted even more. A diluted solution will not precipitate out. Also, the cold temps slow evaporation quite a bit. This means that anything pumped more than likely just filters through the pan and back into the extraction wells, pulling more salt with it as it does become saturated. It may slow the loss, but I can't see it actually adding anything.
Pumping in the summer, however, may actually add to the surface salt layer. The pumped water would be warmer, and able to carry more salt per volume without being fully saturated. A mostly dry salt flats would also not dilute it further. The warmer water, and warmer air, would create accelerated evaporation on the surface, which would quickly result in an over-saturated condition and salt precipitation onto the surface, where we need it to be. We've all seen how fast a few inches of water can evaporate after a summer rain when the sun and wind hits it. If this water was saturated with salt when it was put on the flats, just imagine what would happen. It seems like it would at least be worth some testing to see what would happen. Heck, put a dike a few inches high around an acre or so and pump brine onto it for a bit. See what happens. Couldn't be too hard to accomplish for a proof of concept experiment.
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I'll probably get shouted down and called out for even putting in my $.02, but I've got nothing to lose, so here goes. :dhorse:
I don't know why this option seems to draw the ire of some folks. It seems apparent to me the only viable plan is pumping in the summer.
We know that they can't pump a fully saturated brine due to the excessive wear on the pumping equipment. Therefore any brine pumped is not fully saturated. If pumping is done in the winter, when the flats are already flooded with cold fresh water from rain and snow run off from the mountains, then it is diluted even more. A diluted solution will not precipitate out. Also, the cold temps slow evaporation quite a bit. This means that anything pumped more than likely just filters through the pan and back into the extraction wells, pulling more salt with it as it does become saturated. It may slow the loss, but I can't see it actually adding anything.
Pumping in the summer, however, may actually add to the surface salt layer. The pumped water would be warmer, and able to carry more salt per volume without being fully saturated. A mostly dry salt flats would also not dilute it further. The warmer water, and warmer air, would create accelerated evaporation on the surface, which would quickly result in an over-saturated condition and salt precipitation onto the surface, where we need it to be. We've all seen how fast a few inches of water can evaporate after a summer rain when the sun and wind hits it. If this water was saturated with salt when it was put on the flats, just imagine what would happen. It seems like it would at least be worth some testing to see what would happen. Heck, put a dike a few inches high around an acre or so and pump brine onto it for a bit. See what happens. Couldn't be too hard to accomplish for a proof of concept experiment.
I think it is going to take full year of pumping and closing off of the ditches to get back to a suitable racing surface. In conversation with/around Tom at the PRI show this year he was sharing his data. The facts he presented were very compelling and knowing Tom they were likely very accurate.
There are a few steps that need to be taken, but in order to get any meaningful material movement from one side of the highway to another looks like we need a long pumping session through the hottest part of the season.
I am usually not a half-empty kind of guy but I am very skeptical of what we will get this year to race on. Based on the last three years of data alone I feel like there will be a short course or two and not enough surface to get the big liners out to run. I sure hope I am wrong and I wouldn't take it as a credible prognostication...just a gut feeling. More will be revealed as we get closer to July.
That said, if there isn't a racing surface this year and we missed the opportunity to pump +2" of surface back and the plan to do a full year pumping is done in 2017 we may have a lot longer to go to get to run on the salt. :cry:
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Guy's, just remember that We Racer's have no say in the pumping. That is what The Alliance and others are trying to make happen amongst other things.
We just All need to remember that We are dealing with bureaucracy and they are as usual worried about their jobs. We need Sally Jewell to step up and do Her Job.
Next November, whomever wins the Presidential Election will no doubt appoint someone else to shuffle papers with (unfortunately) probably the same stalling results.
We need to keep pressure on the Department of the Interior (Mz. Jewell) to lean on the BLM to play ball and do so on a level playing field.
Bob
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WhizzbangK.C.
Pumping in the summer, however, may actually add to the surface salt layer. The pumped water would be warmer, and able to carry more salt per volume without being fully saturated. A mostly dry salt flats would also not dilute it further. The warmer water, and warmer air, would create accelerated evaporation on the surface, which would quickly result in an over-saturated condition and salt precipitation onto the surface, where we need it to be. We've all seen how fast a few inches of water can evaporate after a summer rain when the sun and wind hits it. If this water was saturated with salt when it was put on the flats, just imagine what would happen. It seems like it would at least be worth some testing to see what would happen. Heck, put a dike a few inches high around an acre or so and pump brine onto it for a bit. See what happens. Couldn't be too hard to accomplish for a proof of concept experiment.
I think you are on the right track with that observation. As I have mentioned before in these discussions there are two ways to change the salt saturation level in the pumped brine. Evaporation and temperature change. When temps are high and winds are present, evaporation is high but the higher temperatures make the salt more soluble (ie the saturation can actually drop as the brine heats up and water is evaporated.) Cooling the brine also will increase the saturation as solubility goes down with temperature.
So the ideal situation would be to pump hot brine over the highway and then let it concentrate by both evaporation and cooling. That would cause the maximum amount of salt to crystallize and precipitate out of solution. If the salt brine was allowed to concentrate in a solar warming pond prior to being pumped and pumped intermittently in the late afternoon, you would create that situation as that brine cooled over night.
The only way to refine the process to get the maximum amount of salt to drop out of solution as halite crystals is to do some testing with some small test areas as you mentioned.
For example build two small dikes that extend from the road near lands end all the way to the highway to form a small concentrating pond south and west of the lands end where brine could be pumped and allowed to concentrate in the summer time, then when it reaches full saturation, instead of pumping it, open a sluice gate in the dike and let that super saturated brine flow by gravity out onto the salt. It would also raise the local water table near that dike and saturated brine would wick to the surface near the test pond and evaporate on the surface, leaving behind its salt payload.
I would bet one of the Utah colleges would be happy to set up a test recovery operation using graduate students in geology and chemistry to manage such a restoration test.
You can learn more in one summer with some small test ponds like that on the north side of the highway than you could with several multimillion dollar "studies".
Once you get that salt out onto the crust on the north side of the highway into the test ponds, then during the winter the precipitation would actually work for you instead of against you by redistributing that local salt build up out over the racing surface.
Doing those tests there south of lands end on the mud flats to the highway would also restore salt in one of the places we need it most on the southern end of the international race course and the high traffic area at lands end.
Just like a farmer tending irrigation a single person or small team of a few students could observe and manage that sluice gate in the test pond dike so that the water was only released in amounts that could quickly evaporate and deposit a sheet of salt onto that nearly barren area of the flats.
We need to pressure BLM to approve testing on recovery methods. Stop talking about doing something and actually try a few things. We might get a pleasant surprise, and find an effective method to restore the salt quickly.
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would seem to me that you could just bring in 20 dump trucks of salt a day and spread it out with a dozer and get the same effect in a few months. 20 trucks a day times say 60 days layed down in the areas that are most critical would seem to be more effective in providing a racing surface than just pumping brine that flows to the lowest areas which are probably not where we actually need the salt. Or is the issue way more complicated and this is way to simple to work?
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Just doing some quick math on that.
3 months, hauling 20 11 yard loads a day, 5 days a week, 20 days a month.
Equates to a 2" lift on a 22' wide course, 3 miles long. Lots fuel for one race course that you don't want to drift off the edge of. And as soon as it gets wet, its spreads out and you have 1/8" salt or less.
You'd move a LOT more salt with water flowing 24 hours a day. The truck idea would help for land's end, but its a band-aid not a solution.
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How much actual salt is in the brine solution, say per day, being pumped and how much area does what is pumped spread out over? My worry is the solution being pumped gets spread out so much over the entire flats that there is actually very little salt per yard, especially in the areas where it is needed, being layed down. If it all ends up in the dykes before it has a chance to lay down does it do what we really need?
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What happens when that 11 yard loaded truck sinks to its axles on the way out to the courses....... :dhorse: :roll:
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jacksoni, a most practical question.
When the pumping started years ago they told us
how much the thickness of the salt would increase.
Apparently Mutha Nature didn't listen.
Seems to me that it has decreased.
Have I any solution? Hell no but I'm not
telling anyone how to do it either. But before
the mining I don't think it was getting thinner.
FREUD
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when the pumps run, where does it come out? JC
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Like I've said all along & have pi$$ed off a lot of people, if you don't put the plug in the bath tub & you run the water, you're just rinsing it out.
Sid.
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Sid, I can't remember where it was but at one point it was mentioned that the drain back across the highway would be blocked before the pump all summer plan was implemented. It may have been in the presentation at the PRI Show. I'm sure that's the only way it would work, otherwise it's just an extension of the process that's been carried out in the past.
Pete
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For the sake of arguing, what would it take to create a small berm or dike about 10 - 12" tall around a TEST AREA. Seems this height is about what the people that mine sea salt use to dry the water and collect the salt so you may be able to get some ideas from what they currently do to estimate what one could expect as a return rate. As has been said before measure the test area first then measure the brine being pumped into the area and allow it to fill until it overflows the berm slightly. Stop the pumping, and allow mother nature to dry it out. Take new measurements of the TEST AREA and then repeat the cycle. My guess is it's going to take 10 or more cycles to get any real increase in surface salt deposits but at least then all the guessing goes out the window and we would have real measured facts to know how to move forward. The mining people and all involved could stop guessing and have a pretty damn good idea of what it's going to take to TRY and restore things on a small scale at that point and also a good idea of cost along with time involved.
If the test area shows that years of pumping and huge cost are involved then and only then maybe the government would take this as a serious problem and look for a solution. I hope they would be smart enough to understand the longer you wait, the more it is going to cost. If the mine is allowed to run near the end of the lease then hangs it up and goes BK were all stuck with the bill anyways, so if something is forced NOW, maybe, something could be gotten from the mine while its still operating and they could see how they need to operate in the future too.
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What would it take? It would take a O.K. from the BLM. That's it but if You were hanging out on this site a couple of years ago, Ron Main hauled a few loads out to demonstrate to the BLM how it could be done. If I remember correctly the BLM came unglued because the returned salt was minus the potash and magnesium that was in it before it was pumped across the Freeway to Intrepid. I believe that they said a "study" would have to be done. No Sh*t................................ Bob
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Sid's bathtub metaphor could be read as "stop the mining now" - which is what I have been saying all along.
Willi
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Freud said:
jacksoni, a most practical question.
When the pumping started years ago they told us
how much the thickness of the salt would increase.
Apparently Mutha Nature didn't listen.
Seems to me that it has decreased.
Have I any solution? Hell no but I'm not
telling anyone how to do it either. But before
the mining I don't think it was getting thinner.
FREUD
I agree with this and would like to add:
If we were told that pumping would increase the salt thickness years ago, the person or organization probably knew at the time it would not. Companies and Government organizations very often will just kick a can down the road meaning, lets just do something to get these people off my back. For the Government employees it is job protection till retirement or until they go to another department and its someone else's problem. For a company it's minimizing cost to get these people off my back. Unfortunately I have experience that shows me this is the norm.
The questions that are being asked here are valid to see if the details of any salt replenishment can allow the process to even work. If it has not worked in the past it is a farce without an overall knowledge of the process. Even if the mining company is acting or talking nice to the LSR and BLMs face I do not trust their motives. Any pumping that does get done needs to be monitored to see the material is going and staying in the right place and at concentrations and evaporation rates that matter.
I am appealing to the people that may be reading this that actually may have an audience with decision makers. Tom Burkland, Landspeed Louise and others. Thank you for the hard work and please press the decision makers for results, not unproven promises.
I finally have some skin in the game. I have been reading about LSR for years and have been on this site for a while. I recently bought a Factory Road Race bike and am now spending money on expensive parts and am hoping to spend money on travel, lodging etc. Please help me spend my money by keeping the wonderful salt flats, flat, long and thick. And help an old fart racer to keep racing.
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No matter what, if salt can be moved from one side of the road to the other, its progress. In any form. I'm all for any method that moves salt closer to the track. The question is this: exactly how much salt is sitting on the wrong side of the road? If it ALL gets moved over to the track, is it enough? Or did they sell the bulk of it? IS it just gone forever? Is this conversation all for nothing? We need millions of cubic yards. 3.5 million cubic yards will raise a 1 mile wide by 7 mile long track 6". Overwhelming, no? Cut that depth in half and its still staggering.
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The most cost effective way to move it is through hyrdo-dynamic action. Tom put up a good bit of detail about this at the PRI show and his estimate was either 2 or 4 inches (I forget which one) could be done in a year.
In order for it to be effective a few details needed to be dealt with.
1. We need to prevent the brine from making it into the collection ditches and having it run back to the other side of the road.
2. Mechanically moving salt in solution means that the saturation level cannot exceed a 26% solution. Concentrations higher than this will precipitate out from the mechanical action of pumping.
3. Brine that is less than 28% solution will pickup the additional 2% when it comes into contact with more salt. This means that if it were pumped back onto the surface directly it would carry 2% of the salt away from the surface. In order to prevent this, there needs to be an area where brine can be pumped into an additional supply of salt and THEN allowed to flow back onto the racing surface.
Hauling salt by the truckload would be logistically troublesome and cost prohibitive. We would also need flooding to level the surface out. Using the pumping method is cheaper (not free) and automatically levels the surface.
I believe it also will be beneficial in the slow curing process making the surface more integrated and dense and less likely to delaminate or have other contaminates within the surface.
I grew a series of potassium ferricyanide crystals in 8th grade science class for extra credit, I was the only one that did it. It seems the process is exactly the same except the beaker is the size of the BSF, otherwise, the process is exactly the same. Make a solution and remove the water slow enough to allow the crystal to grow.
potassium ferricyanide [Pic]
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/f1b80aa0fb9abaaf4df3d96d488027b2/tumblr_nfjzat7Bmt1txlrx7o1_1280.jpg)
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What pumps are available for the process? Do they need to be purchased and installed? I have heard the old pumps are long gone.
200 gallons = 1 cubic yard (roughly). If we need to move 3.5 million cubic yards of salt, that's 700 million gallons of brine, plus 2% of the total salt volume needs to be trucked to the other side of the pump where it can be added later to avoid precipitation that would clog the pipes (aka supercharging). Damn I hope my math is wrong, but given the decades of mining, I figured the numbers would be staggering. And this is just enough to be able to race, not a long term replacement of anywhere near enough salt.
Again, my question, what pumps are available? How many years will it take to raise a 1x7 mile section of the course 6" (my rough numbers as calculated above)? How many square miles will this actually precipitate out to and what is the resulting salt layer that will occur from moving this volume of salt? I guarantee most of you are better at math than I am. This looks bleak. How much salt is available to be moved?
Step one. Build dikes, do not allow access of any more surface brine to leave the race track, at any cost.
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If it took 60+ years to take it away by pumping saturated brine South, I don't see any quick repair by pumping non- saturated brine North part of the year while still pumping saturated brine South part of the year. Are the pumps going North as large as the pumps going South??? = net loss. Been pumping North somewhat erratically since '89' and Salt still going away. Color me skeptical.
Ron
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My understanding is that the plan includes blocking off the drainage to the south. Apparently they aren't getting that much of their production from the race course area and it could be halted with minimum effect. I think that may have been part of the PRI presentation. If not it was in some of the more recent information that's been published.
Pete
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I am under the impression it was explained that the brine percolates into the lower layers where it is pumped from wells rather than the ditches. Racing salt goes away.
Ron
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My understanding is that the plan includes blocking off the drainage to the south. Apparently they aren't getting that much of their production from the race course area and it could be halted with minimum effect. I think that may have been part of the PRI presentation. If not it was in some of the more recent information that's been published.
Pete
I recall that as well from the PRI conversation. Getting the ditches closed stopped/slowed the flow of the surface and allowed for a retention pond to raise the saturation from 26 to 28% then over the dyke onto the surface.
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My understanding is that the plan includes blocking off the drainage to the south. Apparently they aren't getting that much of their production from the race course area and it could be halted with minimum effect. I think that may have been part of the PRI presentation. If not it was in some of the more recent information that's been published.
Pete
Which brings to the fore a potential problem -
I understand Intrepid is looking at the possibility of backing away from their public leases, precisely because so little potash is being extracted from the race track side of the road.
IF they back away, I suspect they'll be disinclined to maintain pumping.
And they own the pumps . . . :roll:
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My understanding is that the plan includes blocking off the drainage to the south. Apparently they aren't getting that much of their production from the race course area and it could be halted with minimum effect. I think that may have been part of the PRI presentation. If not it was in some of the more recent information that's been published.
Pete
Which brings to the fore a potential problem -
I understand Intrepid is looking at the possibility of backing away from their public leases, precisely because so little potash is being extracted from the race track side of the road.
IF they back away, I suspect they'll be disinclined to maintain pumping.
And they own the pumps . . . :roll:
That's the real trouble spot. If Intrepid tries to back away, the government only has what they made them pay for the reclamation fee and I doubt that will cover too much. So its going to cost the tax payers no matter how you look at it, or its not going to get done. There is no short term fix and everyone needs to understand that, it is going to take years but the longer we wait the longer its going to take.
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Anyone know the amount of Intrepid's bond? That is all that there will be to fall back on if they abandon the station.
I said in a post a while back that there is a distinct possibility that the corporate structure would allow for them to close down operations and dissolve (no pun intended) the part of the corporation that holds the responsibility for reclamation at Wendover while the parent company continues to do what it does. Corporate lawyers are smart that way.
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I hear the BLM's calling a big "summit" on May 17th. Hope somebody has a plan by then that can be rejected, modified or implemented.