Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: landracing on November 05, 2004, 11:12:00 AM
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Tire needs, help is coming soon
From the first time Mike Cook introduced into our minds that we may have a solution to our sport for high speed tires there finally has been good news reported from a company which lives in Oregan, Alaskan Bushwell Tires.
Owner Bill Dunkin bought out this Alaskan based company about 5 years ago and build a brand new manufacturing plant and based it in Joseph, Oregan. This plant was visited by a representitive from our community of LSR racers and described the operation as sugically clean. He was very impressed with the state of the art equipment as well as the knowlede that Dunkin has. An aircraft tire that was made by Dunkin was put on a machine to measure lateral and radial runout and NO runout was seen, and that was an aircraft tire. The attention to detail to design us a tire is only going to be top-notch. Dunkin also was very supportive in our needs for high speed tires and has agreed to take on the task of building us high speed tires for the future of land speed racing. We can just refer him as an Angle from the skies because our cars or bikes are only as good as the tires they sit on. And right now some of the vehicles are sitting on 30 year tires, and the set of four could be the only ones they have. It was stated that his process will be able to manufacture 4 tires a day. Doesn't sound like much does it. Consider this, 4 tires a day isn't much because the attention to detail and the ability to give us a high speed tire with almost zero runout is the outcome. Earlier tires made by various companies gave us a high speed tire but with runout with as much as 1/16 of an inch.
Where we sit at this moment in time is Dunkin has purchased a block of aluminum reported to cost in excess of $10,000 and is in the process of building our first mold for tires to come. Now the question is which tires will be made? When will they be available? How much? The answer is this. One mold will be the baseline for the following tires 30x18, 26.5x18, 26x16, 5.50x15. How can one mold be used for these tires, he will be using liners in the mold for the additional sizes. Newer technology will be used to give a Kevlar tire instead of nylon and will be a true radial. This will give us a 17% less drag by going with Kevlar over nylon. Another postive result using his technology is a lighter tire with no growth. Previous reported said they would be a bias ply tire but new information says they will be a true radial. Availability is scheduled to be June 2005. The price has not been established yet. First the mold has to be made then a tire made and then tested. Who wil be testing the tires. Dunkin has the ability to put these tires on a true tire dyno. He can spin them up to 350 mph with a controlled load on the tire and can determine rolling resistance. I am sure that Burklands and Joe Law will be able to test some of these also. Right now everything is being done to get the first tire off the production line and test it and the results from that will go into the production of the tires.
Motorcycle tires will be in the process for the future but right now it was stated that he will design and test the car tires, get some data then start on the motorcycle tires.
As new information gets to me I will publish for your entertainment.
Jonathan Amo
<small>[ November 05, 2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: JonAmo ]</small>
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Jon
Thanks for the update.
Glen
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Jon this is great news for everyone. Finally someone has stepped up to the plate. with the increase of speed of the bikes lately ,this was the limiting factor . now how soon before we see 300 mph on a sit on bike??? Hopefully in the near future tire avalibility wont be an issue. This is an awesome start.
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Jon
Could you check with your sources on the tire sizes again? All seem right except the 26x16. Could it possibly be a 27x15 instead? Hope so cause thats the size I need.
John
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John,
I am correct on the sizes, sorry buddy.
Jon
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That 26x16 car tire wouldn't happen to be a round profile tire would it Jon?
TD
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Re: LSR tires-I'll believe it when I see them.
There is a need for a 28" tall tire to replace all the 28X15 Goodyears out there IF anyone is really going to build LSR tires.
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Ken, If you don't want to believe it, thats fine, but I havn't heard what you are doing to promote any tires being built. Maybe you can extrapolate further on your current efforts, rather than riducule the only known active efforts to do something positive to deal with the current problems.
Bob
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Well said Bob. I recently overheard the same comment last weekend and thought more about the present increased safety requirements across the board. For every person that has heard and been let down on tires there's another one out here that would still like to believe it, and for good reason. These tires are needed more everyday, especially on(but not limited to) the motorcycle end of things. The average 250mph to 300mph car or motorcycle streamliner that shreads a tire, spins out or at worst rolls, and 99% of the time the pilot exits the vehicle with a relatively insignifigant amount of damage. Open wheel motorcycles(of streetbike design) are now becoming more known for entering the 250+mph hour zone which is not quite so simple when you think of a failed tire, especially a front. And there's many of these bikes in the 225mph+ zone now. Not to mention that more cars are commonly reaching 200+ much easier then years gone by. The way I see it, this means there is more $ available overall for someone to build these then there has been before. It still may not be enough to constitute it? But as long as there's a group of people willing to find out, I think they could use everyone's support as much as possible.
I'd like to thank people like JOn for trying to kick it in the butt and people like Bill for being willing to try and grab it by the horns.
TD (hoping to need those tires on something in the future)
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Think what Ken is trying to say is that the 28x15 Goodyears and the 27.5x15 Mickies were the most popular sizes of LSR tires, they are currently used up or unavailable, and they are not on the list to be duplicated. ???????
John
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JOhn and All,
I am sure that these will be in the process down the line, we have to start somewhere. ALL tires are hard to come by and they have to start somewhere, so those are the sizes. If all goes well then more for the future would be the way they will go.
Jonathan
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27.5x15 Mickies were the most popular sizes of LSR tires, they are currently used up or unavailable, and they are not on the list to be duplicated. ???????
I just bought two new Goodyear Land Speed tires size 26 X 15 and I was told that there are more of these tires in stock. I bought mine from the SW Dist. in Oaklahoma City.
He also says that Goodyear still plans on making the rest of the line of Land Speed tires soon (EAGLE LAND SPEED TIRES (http://www.racegoodyear.com/products/racect19.html)). They have just moved production of these tires from Chili (where mine where made) back to the US.
I realize this doesn't help the bike people or some others that don't use those size tires, but still it looks like there might be an option for some of us. Still it is always good to have more than one supplier for anything you need.
c ya, Sum
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Thanks John, that's what I was trying to say
Amen,nuf said
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yes, todd! hopeing to need those speed rated tires myself someday for my old WWII techno - pushrod stuff-motosycle! but on the safety end.....there is a need and i'm in that group and as the group gets larger i hope it's economically fesable to build them.
forget last year.looking at next year and what i have to improve on and most of it isn't money but thought and time...........AND DO IT!of course a little $$ to work with is very helpful.may my god watch over us -foolish mortals in our quest for speed!
dad land
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If the tires are to be made with Kevlar and are not going to GROW --- we maybe need 32x18 instead of 30x18. at 270 the 30's had grown to 31.3 wmts
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Sparky
The simple solution for that is to change the spur gear in the Quickchange.
John
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I have two 27.5X15 "Allstate" LSR Mickey tires.
They look just like a regular mickey tire, and I understand they were made for Mickey w/the allstate lable. Basically a flat surface,one edge is square, the other edge is round. One is brand new, the other was mounted, and looks new.I have $300 invested in both, and it doesn't look like I'm going to use them. So----
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John, I am trying to stay away from quick changes if at all possible because of the extra paracitic drag..
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The two "Allstate Mickey" tires I have available actually measure 26" across, unmounted ($300 for both)
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Any progress reports from the new LSR tire suppliers up in Joseph, Oregon? Especially the M/C variety?
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The last I heard a week or two ago, is he has finished designing the mold for the tires. I have not heard on the time frame to get mold actually done. then he has to make a tire, test it, then produce. I think we might be looking a little farther down the line then anticipated. And that is not a quote just a personal opinion. But I do hear he plans to be on schedule for Bonneville???
Sorry NOTHING in Motorcycle tires im afraid for this year.
Jon
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Ho-kay, I just read the new rules and it sure looks to me like I've gotta go shopping for tires for my bike if I wanna run in a class with a 200+ record.
So is it time to try to fit car lsr tires to the bike? Or does one of the bike-tire mfrs. make something that'll be legal?
Inquiring mind sure wants to know. . .
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Jon,
Two contacts for you and others:
Tom Evans
(818)352-9109
mrrodan@budweiser.com
Russ O'Daley
(562)947-5432
DW
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For all 200 mph capable motorcyle entries.
I have been discussing the need for 200+ mph tire with various motorcycle tire manufacturers. Goodyear has asked me to find out the most popular sizes and the potential yearly demand. Please post your desired motorcycle tires sizes on this site. When I get an idea of the needs I'll pass the info to Goodyear.
I've sent Joe A's tire to the folks at Dunlop and asked for a written evaluation and their recommendations and guidelines for running Z & ZR tires under our unique conditions (no response yet, Joe). I've just began initial contact with Pirrelli, Michlin & Avon.
The bottom line is that landspeed racing is a extremely limited market with high potential for liability risks. The tire manufacturer's lawyers may not think that we are a good idea.
I'm hoping to find an interested party within one of the companies that can champion the idea and move this market demand into production of high speed tires.
Both Tom and I are aware of the tires problem and will try to keep you racing and safe. The new rules also requires a tech inspection after each run over 195 mph. We, the racer and the tech guy will check the tire for damage or signs of impending problems. This should be a cooperative deal and not adversarial.
We are concerned about the 'shaving' rule. Obviously a quality shaving job by an experienced tire guy would not be an issue. A racer using a grinder or removes rubber with the 'burn out' method could damage the tire by overheating the carcass.
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So we are allowing ZR tires over 200 mph this year just like we have done in the past.. And with stipulation that after each 195 mph pass they are inspected by a SCTA inspector. IS this correct.
Jonathan
<small>[ January 08, 2005, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: JonAmo ]</small>
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If a tire company will consider making one FRONT size, 120/70 x 17 may meet the most applications. For a REAR tire, the most number of racers capable of over 200 mph probably require the Hayabusa size of 190/50 x 17, though 200/50 x 17 would be my preference.
In selling the idea to a tire company, please note that increasing activities at the paved tracks at Maxton and Goliad increases demand for 200+ tires, probably more than other venues.
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Russ, I brought written testimony from a Dunlop
Racing representative/tire tester to Speedweek, the rep if you recall recommended doing as SCTA has done, running tires and carefully monitoring
for signs of trouble, he additionally strongly
recommended that in his experience which includes many decades of high speed tire testing,
that entrants for our type of racing should not
be limitied by tire brand or even original intended application.........
he strongly invited the SCTA to contact him
for discourse/input
do you know if this was pursued?
we have many bikes making many safe runs over
220-250+ mph (no knonwn troubles at Bonn. with tires over 230), .
with so many runs in the last two years of 230
to 250 + mph yielding very good ZR tire performance I sincerly hope that precedent is not abandoned
I am leary of seeing many changing to landspeed car tires and car rims
of unknown handling and performance on sit on bikes over 240 mph, when such a strong successful
precedent has been set with ZR tires
Joe :)
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Jon
In sesponse to your question the new rule book says:
"Tires CANNOT be used beyond the speed rating for that tire."
Looks like a shaved road race tire or nothing for you high speed guys.
JB
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If I remember correctly (and I admit I have been accused of having CRS) Scott Guthrie's conversations with several tire companies indicated that the "Z" rated tires were actually a better choice for LSR than the road race stuff.
JB
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John, thanks for the reading lesson but
that is what the rule book stated the last
10+ yrs, and we were allowed to run zr radials
to 220-250 mph.........how else do you think
those speeds were run..........?.....they were
ALL on zr radials
they may enforce it different this year, but I
am compelled to ask anyway, as I (and anyone else) have done for the last 10+ years and been allowed to run zr radials
Joe
<small>[ January 09, 2005, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Joe Amo ]</small>
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the roadracing tire tester and rep I spoke with explained that current GP roadrace tires have skin/tread thickness that varies over the profile of the tire, dependent on track application, ie a Daytona tire is thinner in the center and a tighter track with thinner tread
on outer aspect of tire.........
now with shaving mandated to gain speed certification.......I see serious potential issues........
ie shaving a tire that is already engineered to offer high speed safety.......shaving by some "notable" business(s) is also suspect by many, as some of these guys have their own philospy of shaving the profile NOT uniform to allow for growth etc, this has born out to be less than desired in some cases.......leading me to NOT want to be governed/mandated to utilize only certain business's for legal shaving......plus I dont want to shave certain roadrace tires, but may be mandated to to be able to run..........all this and the best case
is that we will have the overwhelming success that we already enjoy...........
how can a sanctiioning body hope to garner a better safety record than is already in existence, ie NO known tire failures on bikes over 230 mph with even unshaven ZR radials.......
the only undue tire issues I have seen were on 200 to 216 or so mph and even 180's and 190's......with softer(poor term) compounds (actually firmer(poor term) than what is often on road race tires)......any tire can be abused to a point of insufficient heat shedding ability and blistering and chunking........many of the folks going over 220 seem to utilize the street compound ZR's and they have performed outstanding
what are we to gain by turning away from track record of 100% success rate at Bonn. (sit on bikes over 230 on street compound ZR radials)???????
from what I garnered from a racing tire/rep/tester the best case is to run tires
without limitation to brand and or intended application, and carefully monitor tires after
runs, this is precisely what the SCTA has been
doing...........VERY admirable
and what can the tire manufactures tell us about their tire testing on the salt?????????????
Joe :)
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I sure do like having this discussion in January. Lots of time to have a sleepless night or two, lots of time to find a different tire if that's what it's gonna take.
I've sent a fax to a tire vendor and an email to Tom Evans about the rule. ((AND, for what it's worth, the email just came bouncing back a couple of seconds ago -- Tom's account is "over quota"!)).
I'm hoping to come up with a definitive answer on what tires the 200+ bikes will need for '05, and will let you all know as soon as I hear something. I hope you'll pass the word along, too.
Your question in the above post, Jonathon, is direct -- sure hope it gets a direct resonse, even if it's NO -- then at least we'll know that we need to do something.
Jon, going home to shovel snow off the deck so I can get to the grill to make supper.
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Hey, Scott -- you've ridden Rich Yancy's bike, haven't you? What tires does he run?
Jon
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The "new shaved roadrace tire only"for 200+ runs raises concern. First I recall a few years ago a competitor on a ZX12 tried a Daytona spec Dunlop race tire given to him by a well known Dunlop race rep. It shredded badly after only one run, he went back to his Metzeler street tires and had no further problems. Second concern is the very act of shaving a properly manufactured tire by just anyone armed with a file,grinder etc. should be sending off alarm signals. Are we going to allow anyone on the planet to attempt to modify their own tires?? No experience necessary, just have a go at it lads. Knock off 50% of the tread in any fashion you like and you are legal. Is this stupid or what? I would be far happier just running a ZR tire unmodified in any way and careful monitoring after each run. As Joe say's, this hasn't been a problem, so why create one with the potential for catastrophic results.
Yamagamma
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At the start of the 2003 land speed racing season Wink Eller asked if I would install and assist in the documentation of what heat the tires see during and after a top speed run, I said yes whenever you are ready, the tires when I make the run are cool to the touch and do not see the same heat and problems that a road race style tire will.
Wink never got me the instrumentation to install for the test after repeated offers to assist in the tire development for SCTA-BNI riders.
I have been 230+ mph dozens of times on two surfaces (Salt and Dirt) 240+ mph more than I can count and over 253+ mph once..so please let me add my .002
The street style tires have more tread and are less prone to damage from running over something where as a thinner road race tire that has been shaved is going to go south much quicker.
I as others have found that the race style tires (Road Race) absorb the heat and energy faster than the touring and street tires and seem more susceptible to damage from either picking up "debris" on the course or from coming apart at speed..I hope that all of the valuable information gained in the last few years is not wasted by a rule that makes no sense.
One more thing to consider why is it that the rules are being made by people (riders?) that are not racing themselves..this is where ECTA riders have the advantage and make rules that are better and more founded...
J
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John, I am really glad that you offer your opinion here, it means alot to many of us did you shave your ZR Radials??, the ones that DOZENS of runs with average speed OVER 240 for MULTIPLE miles, and MULTIPLE back to back to back miles of sustained 250+ mph.......
this type of thread/data base is priceless in its
potential for informed decision making.........
Mr. or Mrs. Minonno, are you out there??
could you share your experiences with the Goodyear landspeed tires?????????namely the landspeed Goodyear tires that were showing signs
of coming apart at speeds over 230 mph.........
and also (Minonno's) could you share some info regarding your relationship with a major tire manufacturer that spec'd UNSHAVEN ZR RADIALS for you to
use on the salt, and how they looked like new after many 220+mph runs?????
Joe :)
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Mr. Guthrie, I sincerely hope that YOU OF ALL PEOPLE could share your views on the topic of tires on bikes at Bonneville!!!!!!!!!!!!
we cannot afford to NOT have your input, your experiences on the salt are vital to this topic
many of us give you hell about various issues, NONE of us have the miles of experience you have on the salt
please step up, I know you are keenly involved in pavement speed pursuits, but your knowledge base about salty issues is needed, big time....
ps. how much did you have to shave a tire made from stone, and did it groove the salt? :) :) :)
this topic is not limited to folks who have gone over 100mph on the salt
Scott there might be a couple people who have recently gone faster than some of your pursuits
years ago, but not likely any who are more informed about failure modes and analysis
Joe :)
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First let me say that I hold in high regard the SCTA motorcycle inspectors for their diligence during inspections. They have asked for our imput about tires and those above 230 have all supported the use of hard street radials with some differences over shaving. What happened? Is it the SCTA auto board who voted to use car tires after all the motorcycle rider imput and strong safety record? Street based bikes (the majority) will be difficult to modify for a 15" car tire and all the factory high speed engineering will go out the window. The cord construction of radial slicks is purposely more flexible for traction on hard surfaces. Flex creates heat and that is the enemy at Bonneville. The Michelin man advises slicks be limited to hard one mile tracks.
I support all safety changes when they improve safety. This tire rule does not. I hope we can get a ruling to continue as we are with constant monitoring.
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All of this discussion is all the same material that we had a few weeks before bonneville last year. Same issues now, still no tires. We went ahead and ran like they have for the past 10+ years, with inspectors checking tires after all 200 mph passes and look what happened, NOTHING... All ran fast, no accidents. There were a few tires that went away or blistered but with strick enforcement of the inspection after all fast passes seems to be the best avenue right now. And has worked well the past few years lets just stick to it.
Jonathan
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The rule needs to follow/lead the practice or the liability will end the sport regardless of the safety record for that item.
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Dont get discouraged guys and gals, this type of discourse
is priceless..........
informed decision making will benefit from this type of banter
Joe :)
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I have a tire “truing” machine and can shave any motorcycle tire. My attorney is drafting a hold harmless or “cover my ass” agreement and should be ready to shave tires by mid Feb. If interested call
Kent Riches
Air Tech
760-598-3366
Yours in sport
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I would be very careful with that so called hold harmless agreement. By having the agreement drawn up you are already agreeing that in the USA a lot of people get sued. What happens when 'Aunt Minnie' who has not seen her nephew in 10 years starts suffering mental anguish over the loss or injury to her beloved nephew? She never signed anything...
I am not an attorney but if i were you i might discuss how you can put the tire shaving business into it's own little box so to speak there is nothing to sue for other than what is in that box that does not include your other business or house or whatever like your earnings for the next 20 years..
You can say it will never happen but in life there are 2 very dangerous words.. Never and always.
Dave
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Imagine the liabily you assume when you make the rules and bless a bike at inspection and somebody gets hurt.
Their estate may have a different view of your responsibilities.
An honest effort is the best defence and inattention will eat you.
To worry about foot peg measurements and ignore tire evolution is an example of that.
Kent has been in the business a long time. His introduction to LSR when he was a kid was with me. At that meet was a fatality and to make a long story short, I was the first one served in the lawsuit and had nothing to do with the crash or entry beyond the rules that were violated by the victim.
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For shaving tires, it's been recommended to me to first rotate the tire under infra-red light to pre-heat it, to make it "grow" to as "round" as it will be under racing conditions. Otherwise, if the tire is not fully rounded, the cutting tool will be true, but the amount of rubber cut may be uneven across the tread section of the casing. Supposedly this reduces the potential for yaw.
Disclaimer: I am not a tire engineer nor am I qualified to consult on race tire matters. The above paragraph is a recollection of an observation of someone else's take on the matter. That person shall remain nameless. I, personally, do not endorse the shaving of tires, though I reserve the right to shave tires should my that meet my requirements.
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It has been demonstrated that breaking in a tire in service will cause the bond between the casing and the moulded tread to cure better.
Reducing the tread mass by shaving will allow it to spin fasrer by reducing the unsupported load.
Shaving will produce a smooth surface as compared to grinding or sanding.
If you know what a stress riser in metal trearment you will begin to understand the effect on the surface of the tire.
Preheating not only serves to relax the tire but soften the rubber and make it easier to cut.
Liberal application of soapy water during the cutting process serves to allow the sharp cutting tool(like a block plane) to cut without grabbing.
The % of tread removed can vary with the application and what works for one may not work for the other.
Each bike and rider treat the tires differently and a rule might be required to establish a minimum but full treaded tires have been said to work. Not said is the pre event preparation, weight, suspension characteristics, and HP level.
Tire rules should be a major consideration otherwise it is a case of the "Blind leading the deaf."
Most of you know some of it and some of you know all of it.
The point of a rule is that it should be easily
ubderstood by everybody and supported by the best information available.
<small>[ February 06, 2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: JackD ]</small>
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Joe,
Sorry I overlooked your question about my tires back in January. Thought I should reply even at this late date.
The Goodyear that came apart actually wasn't the fault of the tire. It was due to inadequate clearance to allow for tire growth.
The ZR tires that had the multiple runs > 220 were ZR tires designed for heavy motorcycles at sustained high speeds running on the autobohn.
Also I choose not to run a wider wheel. This is to avoid excessive stretching the center of the tire which is the area we experience the most wear.
I designed my bike heavy, bike and rider, wet, running down the salt weigh 905 lbs. The tire I used had 6 pulls on the dyno, 4 runs at Goliad, and 6 runs at Bonneville. The rear tire was a 180/55/17 on a 5" wheel.
I know they already have written the rules for 2005 but maybe this will at least provide some additional food for thought.
Jon
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Lot's of speculation surrounding the Goodyear LSR tire on a bike. Glad to know the failure wasn't the tires fault.
JB
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http://www.avonmotorcycle.com/us/en/news.asp?ID=70 (http://www.avonmotorcycle.com/us/en/news.asp?ID=70)
The Avon Azaro-ST AV45/46, shaved, may be a 300 mph tire. Tire Test engineers can be found in the Akron yellow pages.
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Jon,
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Jon, If your question is still pending, the answer is yes. We will allow ZR tires to run in classes with records up to 250 mph. An inspection by the rider and tech inspector will be required before and after each run over 195 mph. It is the responsibility of the rider to determine if the tire is safe for additional runs. However, if the inspector find apparent damage or deterioration, the tire must be replaced before the bike can run again.
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Rules enforcement and application will always be a shared responsibility.
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Good to hear, I have run several runs over 240+ to find that the only problems with Z rated tires (or any tires so far for me) is when the rider has more power than most or "over" powers the course and spins the rear tire at a speed that is 25+ miles an hour greater than actual speed being traveled..this causes blistering and "chunking" of the rear tire in all cases and the front tire is always perfect..
J
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Sorta sets up a class for 'my bike'.. Interesting thought..
Dave