Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Rex Schimmer on April 05, 2014, 07:44:13 PM
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I got a call from Steve Nelson, (V4/FL record holder, car no. 221) and he has talked to the Goodyear engineer regarding using the new(er) top fuel tire at over 200 mph ( the old ones are limited by Goodyear and SCTA to 200 mph max) and the engineer said that they would be good for 300 mph and he is going to send SCTA an letter stating this. This is a pretty good deal for the lakester and modified roadster classes as these tires will greatly reduce front tire frontal area.
Rex
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The 22x4-17 #2904 :?
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Heard the rumor at the GNRS but need to see the approved letter! $$$, P/N? & Load rating? :?
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I emailed goodyear about the 2904 and they replied
we certified that tire to 300mph at 1200lbs load rating and 90 psi
now all we need is a motorcycle profile :-D
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I have been working on this since last fall.
We have been unable to get anyone to tell us in writing what wheel this thing mounts on: CAR or Motorcycle
So far they have not responded to one of THEIR OWN race tire distributors who has sold lots of these 2904 Front runners!!!!!!!!
We have contacted all three drag tire Manufactures ---the same result-- no one will say theirs mount on car or motorcycle wheels If they know which specs their tires mount on, they will not say--
Go figure!!!
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But they will sell them to you.
Even if they don't tell you how to use them at the best advantage.
Blow up or jump off?
Sorry, you didn't use the proper wheel.
Been there, heard that but the check cleared the day after they received it.
FREUD
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Its my intention to mount one on a car space saver rim , scrub it to a more motorcycle profile then fit it on my motorcycle rim
i'll let you now how the fits compare
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I was told that it was to be mounted on a car rim 2.5" to 3.0 " by a Goodyear eng.
I have read that it could be mounted on a 2.5" to a 3.5" wheel---no mention car or motorcycle by a Goodyear guy!
I have heard lots of stories by folks in the know how inconsistent they mount on existing wheels that are being sold and used by the drag guys!!
BUT I haven't found anyone who will tell me what the are SUPPOSED TO BE MOUNTED ON!!
We have 2 20" X 5" T-7075 and a machinist ready to go when we can find out!!
We have been told by Goodyear that they wish to work through the SCTA---If they have released these tires for limited LSR use one would think they would let some one know what the specs are.. They just keep saying that they are designed to be used with existing wheels!!!
But no one wiil say what they are!!!
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Why doesn't someone arrange to take a look at the front wheel for a fuel dragster and take a profile from that? That's obviously what the tire's been designed for so make use of that information which shouldn't be all that difficult to get.
Pete
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Terry Mouer, the Machisnist has all ready done that. We have the specs of the specs of the car and the motorcycle rim associations. We have put car, motorcycle, and top fuel dragster wheels side by side. The drag wheels LOOK and measure closer to motorcycle specs---
But THIS is almost becoming FUNNY how no one will say what WHEELS their tires are designed to be mounted on. We think we know, The race tire dist. has given us his opinion on how to proceed. But they do not want to offend big mama and neither do we. The Dragster Wheels are not useable for our application, IMO--- ymmv.
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I agree with your evaluation of the dragster wheels,
Pete
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YEAH!! we may have finally poked the right frog, (by asking the right question)--- at the right time, at the right extension number, and he jumped---) seems like there MAY be a SFI spec. for front dragster wheels. We are getting help from Goodyear with this NOW!! I will furnish the Spec. # if I find it!!
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Looking at a 2012 NHRA rulebook online, the SFI spec for a Top Fuel Dragster front wheel is SFI Spec 15.2. That is the same spec for Funny Car as well. Hope that helps
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Thanks, SFI 15.2 does not have specs
Well the Fat Lady is warming up back stage!!!
I got a return call from the "Goodyear Tire guy"
definitive ans:: Tire was designed to work on The Tire and Rim Association' 5deg. J(ISO) contour 17" rim.
Motorcycle wheels do not have a J contour-----so it is a so called Car wheel. Was told that I could have that in writing and we agreed that the SCTA should be copied !!!! This puppy is about to be put to bed Thanks To all the Goodyear guys who responded by getting the right message to the right depts. !!!
I will post when I have recieved written conformation!!
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Thanks, SFI 15.2 does not have specs
Well the Fat Lady is warming up back stage!!!
I got a return call from the "Goodyear Tire guy"
definitive ans:: Tire was designed to work on The Tire and Rim Association' 5deg. J(ISO) contour 17" rim.
Motorcycle wheels do not have a J contour-----so it is a so called Car wheel. Was told that I could have that in writing and we agreed that the SCTA should be copied !!!! This puppy is about to be put to bed Thanks To all the Goodyear guys who responded by getting the right message to the right depts. !!!
I will post when I have recieved written conformation!!
I saw on your other thread that you finally got your answer. Nice to see that persistance and patience paid off for ya SParky :-)
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Have no need for such tires but curiosity prevails. Of course have no idea what a J contour is so google= http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg4.html provides some explanations for those interested. I am sure there is more. If the bike wheels don't have a "j" contour, what prevents them from getting them made that way to fit whatever bike they are running. I am pretty sure those of us getting car wheels made have never asked the mfg what rim contour they are using. I suppose for speeds these may be used in, it makes sense to be sure they are right.
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Is there a list (for publication) of approved tires for over 200? Obviously SCTA has to have one for the tech people.
Will Willis
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Is there a list (for publication) of approved tires for over 200? Obviously SCTA has to have one for the tech people.
Will Willis
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong -
Unless there has been a change in the last 7 years, the acceptable tires are determined at tech. There is no detailed high speed tire info in the rule book last I checked. Which kind of sucks if you must drive several hundred miles to find out.
The M/T's Bonnevilles & Goodyear LSR's are unpublished legal, but all other 175mph+ choices are subject to opinion. They graceously allowed me to run the highest speed rated steel radial (149mph DOT at 3086 lb ea) that was safe for my truck, but told me that if I went 175.001 mph or faster I'd get sent home immediately. People thought I went home because I had no chute. They were wrong. The chute was in the trailer. Later on, after the race, the tires tested out at safe to 215mph at 2200lbs (true load that year was 1720/1550 lb at the factory published pressure). But testing is not where it's at, and it's expensive to boot. Opinion is more critical. So I had to drop $4000 more for a set of bald tires with no published weight rating or suggested inflation pressure.
The next year, they allowed another similar truck but with higher front tire loading to run on DOT tires and rims that weren't even rated at a high enough weight or speed for the truck to go up to 200mph. They got lucky. If they were in the other line, they might have gotten sent home.
So it just depends. You will not get answers that matter before the event. Things said before the race as being legal or illegal do not hold water in tech.
This might be taken as whining, but it is more aimed at preparing those new racers that are aiming at 175+. Save yourself the grief and just get the approved MT/GY tires, or bite your nails with anything else. Do NOT use your judgement, experience, or testing as to determine what is safe for your set-up. And whatever you do, do not argue with the tech guys. Even if their suggestions are known to you to be dangerous, follow them to the letter.
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Just to update this thread
The tires are definitely motorcycle rim type
i brought 1 and mounted it on a 17" space saver so i could shave the corners for motorcycle use
it was extremely tight, 140 psi only just got it on and still took a couple of mins to pop onto the bead (in a truck tire frame for some sort of safety )
found out from the tire guy shaving them for me that the motorcycle rims are 433mm at the bead and car rims 436mm
and for anyone thinking of doing like i tried , shaving these is a PITA , there definitely not round at 60 psi , we did not bother with the 23.5, as i was taking only the corner off and it would only have done this on 1/2 the tire d2284 for the rear was more successful
looks like sander polisher with 40 grit will have to do
Oh and i got an email from Goodyear stating "Regarding use of D2904 for landspeed racing applications we certified that tire up to 300mph at a load of 1200lbs at 90 psi "
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Oh and i got an email from Goodyear stating "Regarding use of D2904 for landspeed racing applications we certified that tire up to 300mph at a load of 1200lbs at 90 psi "
Excellent, good information.
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Maj what space saver wheel did you use?
And the drama goes on-- well at least we know that they will mount on car wheels like Goodyear says they are designed for.
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GM from our commodore (your Pontiac)
not very many around in these parts, and its poor fit , apart from the diameter, its too wide and there is a huge rim offset
never was going to be permanent
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Further updates, been in contact with SCTA tech , car profile beads on bike profile rims are not acceptable
I need to check my space saver rim and make sure its a J , my misfit may be from that.
otherwise this explains why exactly there not a good idea
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/maj750/salt%20bikes/carandmotorcyclerimdiagram_zpsb235808c.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/maj750/media/salt%20bikes/carandmotorcyclerimdiagram_zpsb235808c.jpg.html)
and my current options include machining my bike rim to suit, as long as its not going to weaken the rim, an old rim will be sacrificed for science
and also looking at top fuel anglia spindle rims and how easy they are to convert from tapered bearings to ball bearings and spacers, and if there offsets allow this and fit in bike forks , currently waiting on specs from MT and American racing
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MAJ,
Thanks for the "details posts" now we know just exactly what the issues are--
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Pic was from the goldwing forum , guess they run car tires on there bikes
Sparky, i am holding off doing anything until i hear how your tires fitted on the J profile at Nates ,
Terry built you some very nice wheels :cheers:
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guess I better get busy and call Nate!
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WOW---called Nate this morning and was told he is on the mend from a quadruple bypass!!
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Maj, Shelby Goodyear tried to mount mine went to 160 and never got the last POP -- twice we waited for around 5 minutes keep your fingers crossed you may be running those on a bike yet!!!---
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Should be easy to x reference the bead width and radius on the tire and rim
I would have checked but for the assembly was in transit
Having a 3piece rim made as I have no time to make the car rim to fit the motorbike forks
after we can confirm its a case of having both available and mount the tire on the correct one
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I have asked that somehow we get THIS in writing so that we can ALL work with this new LSR tire!!
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Went to the NHRA event in Seattle yesterday. Asked several top fuel crew chiefs if they changed rims for the D2904 tires and they all said no. I went to the Goodyear trailer and got 4. Saw some of the guys I used to run against in Top Alcohol and they were running the 2904 and said the same thing. Got lots of inquiries as to why I was carrying 4 tires around. LOL George
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George for those of us less familiar with top fuel wheels ,
Which do they use
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Maj,
You might want to check with Weld Racing as they make the 17" Top Fuel Wheels. Here is their information.
Weld Racing’s business hours are 8:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. Central Time Monday through Friday.
Phone: (800)788-9353 Fax: (816)842-6747 Email: info@weldracing.com
Tom G.
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I have two Centerlines and two welds and they are both 2.25" wide inside. I already mounted one pair and put them at 90lbs and they look perfect. Goodyear said they were designed so everyone wouldn't have to buy new wheels. I mounted them, lightly taped them on the ground all the way around , put air to them and they instantly beaded up. They have very obviously heavier casings and very little tread and a very hard compound. I asked a few crew chief if they worked good and they said they were no longer having chunks of rubber come off. Nice.
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Tom i tried that several weeks ago with 2 companys that make 2.125 anglia spindle wheels and got no reply from either
George can i assume the wheels you have are motorcycle spec then ? with 3mm smaller diameter, 16mm bead width and the smaller radius on the bead edge ?
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The are wheels that were on my TAD from 1996. I did have a MC front tire on them, with permission from Lee K. but these wheels are for car tire beads, not MC. That is why they told me I could no longer run the Pirelli tires I had no problems with at 275 mph. ???
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See what i get for assuming :-D
Thanks George
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I just went out in the shop and put my JET RACING stagger tape to a MC wheel I was try to get permission to use and to one of my Centerline 17" dragster front wheels. 53 3/4" circumference give or take a few blonde ones on both wheels. That's all I have to say on this subject!!!! ( read a small amount of bitterness it to it) George
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ahh-- but now this tire is rated for LSR so the wheels and tires are a match made in Akron ????????? :-D
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Between George and Sparky we seem to have established that the wheel for the 2904 should be a motor cycle configuration and SCTA has approved their use. This is a picture of the Costella/Hoogerhyde I gas lakester at Elmo in June and it looks to me like they are using the 2904 as a drive tire. Anyone have any info on this? as I would really love to run them on both ends of my J class lakester.
Rex