Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: entropy on September 05, 2013, 04:23:30 AM
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My Partner Don Davila & I have committed to buying a "Project in Progress" Lakester from Patrick D.
We are ex-bike guys, and are 110% thrilled with the project.
I am the motor guy, Don is the chassis/bodywork guy.
NEITHER of us is yet "the trailer guy"
At this point we want to get a light, (probably) open trailer to haul the 24' (end to end) vehicle around Houston and next summer, to the salt. A bigger, closed trailer is probably gonna happen a couple years down the way, but not yet.
We are looking for any advice regarding light trailering options. Glider trailer? Custom?
Car is currently in LA.
Thanks for any help you folk can provide. :cheers:
Karl
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb194/guntekd/130905-Lakester_zpsf3ec28b9.png)
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Hi Don & Karl
Well I see you finally jumped into the deep end of the pool getting your Salt runner.
That is very good news and I hope you two do well and have a lot of fun too, as it is such a great place
I guess it depends a lot on how you are going to get your car back to the pits, trailer it or tow it?
Sure seems like a lot of extra work to load and unload it each time, with a open front end like you have just hook on a tow bar with a lot less effort
Later, Don
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Hi Don & Karl
Well I see you finally jumped into the deep end of the pool getting your Salt runner.
That is very good news and I hope you two do well and have a lot of fun too, as it is such a great place
I guess it depends a lot on how you are going to get your car back to the pits, trailer it or tow it?
Sure seems like a lot of extra work to load and unload it each time, with a open front end like you have just hook on a tow bar with a lot less effort
Later, Don
Don,
thanks for your thoughts; i was thinking about towing it to/from the pits, but am open to all options.
Karl
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I have a Sloan Quick Load and love it.
Mine is 20' and I'm not sure what lengths they make.
They are made in Texas.
Don
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My open trailer is likely not at all what you want -- but where I got it might be of interest.
We needed to rent a trailer to take our skid/steer to a shop a few hundred miles away, so I called the local rental place (independent, by the way) to get a price and such. After we decided on what would do the job - 20', open, HD loading ramps (The Bobcat weighs about 7000#), etc -- the rental guy asked if I'd like to buy the trailer instead of just renting it. He explained -- they rent equipment for a while, and sooner or later they then sell it to the public - at a used equipment price. I got the $5000 trailer for about half that -- and the price included some chains and load binders. And now I don't have to rent a trailer each time I want to move something.
So - how 'bout you and your partner checking out trailers at a rental location, finding one you like, and then offering to buy it out of their inventory? You might get just what you want - for a bunch less $$.
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Karl, trailering on the salt is a lot easier than towing.... working on the ground on a short car is hard on a tall guy... We built a custom trailer for working and towing, it was easier than the adapting we did at first.
Wheel track and base measurements will help determine what size trailer you can use. We might have a long narrow trailer you could borrow until we decide what our future plans are.
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Congrats Karl, looks like a good start. I hope you will start a build diary thread.
Sorry, I'm no help with trailers - I just prowl on Craigslist with cash in hand, ready to pounce.
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Regardless of the type of open trailer you end up with you will want a sheild in the front to prevent dirt, water and salt spray. On the salt you have a lot longer tow back to the pits or starting line. Protection and cleaning salt off is critical. A two axle trailer with load rated "E" tires and maybe two spares is a good idea. In the archives there has been a lot of discussions on trailer tires and towing in general.Good luck on your new toy.
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Consider tire damage while towing on the salt.
It happens and the tow distances seem to be
getting longer and longer.
Race tires are not cheap.
They need to be pampered.
I vote trailer.
FREUD
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I am converting a boat trailer--the axles under a boat trailer are usually made to slide real easy to get their tounge weight right--I plan on towing the car backwards and putting air bags so I can drop it to load easy on the salt
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I heartily agree with Sparky's boat trailer idea. You can pick them up for cheap and fabricate brackets for your specific vehicle. A medium length bass boat trailer will be a great fit for the lakester and keep things relatively
low for loading. I've seen them for $500 or less.
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WOW !! A boat trailer.
It may have already been introduced to salt water.
You won't have to teach it as much.
FREUD
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and if it hasn't it will be sooner or later at the great white dyno
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Sadly an ex boat trailer would feel right at home on the salt today
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Wow!!!!
There are a bunch of great suggestions, thanks much guys! :cheers:
Special thanks to stainless1 for the offer of a loaner.
Robert, we were at Speedweek, very much looking forward to meeting you.
However, when you had that lil incident, i wasn't comfortable intruding on yr pits. Next time?
Bad/good news is that we've been talking with Joe Timney (Delaware Chassis Works); know him from our bikes running at Maxton & Wilmington. Joe confirmed that the tubing on the car we were getting wouldn't pass tech at Bonneville.
So we are back to looking.
On Sun we'll go to Dallas and look at Smiley's blue coupe-looking car.
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb194/guntekd/130807-Smileyscoupe_zpsa7774c49.jpg)
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Karl,
better than fine out now than after the purchase.
a big thank you to him, huh?
Franey
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Karl, no problem, I thought I saw you at the 2 Club dinner, but I wasn't much of a social butterfly that night and left right after Pork Pie was inducted into the club. Maybe we will see you at the finals, that is our next and last chance to run the lakester this year.
If you pass through Wichita on your way to anywhere, stop by for a chat and a beer.
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Karl...If you buy the Simca from Smiley, let me know. I have some very fond memories of both building and running it with Jay, over 20 years ago now.....If you have questions, maybe I can answer them... :cheers:
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Karl, no problem, I thought I saw you at the 2 Club dinner, but I wasn't much of a social butterfly that night and left right after Pork Pie was inducted into the club. Maybe we will see you at the finals, that is our next and last chance to run the lakester this year.
If you pass through Wichita on your way to anywhere, stop by for a chat and a beer.
Robert,
One of these days, I WILL take you up on your kind offer of "chat and a beer". Wichita is right on the "longer, but mindless route" to/from Houston-Bonneville. I am all about "mindless" & beer!
Karl
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Karl...If you buy the Simca from Smiley, let me know. I have some very fond memories of both building and running it with Jay, over 20 years ago now.....If you have questions, maybe I can answer them... :cheers:
KiwiPaul:
Don & I sure do have questions about Smiley's car, and would be really, REALLY interested in talking to you before we buy it.
At this point, Don & I are pretty flexible about what we buy; but as in the dragster-based car, we don't want to waste time if avoidable.
I like to build stuff, but i 110% more love to hear an engine under my butt.
My Partner Don is 10X, no make that 100X, the fabricator that I am, but he also has a big thing about being told: "the track is yours..."
If at all possible, we'd like to have wheels on salt next summer, even if in a prelim/development car.
When is the most convenient time to contact you?
My cell is 281 705 3394; guntekd@gmail.com
Karl
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Karl,
better than fine out now than after the purchase.
a big thank you to him, huh?
Franey
Franey,
you know Joe, he is a Prince.
A HUGE thanks to Mr Timney!!!!
Karl
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Karl...If you buy the Simca from Smiley, let me know. I have some very fond memories of both building and running it with Jay, over 20 years ago now.....If you have questions, maybe I can answer them... :cheers:
Nice to put a face to the project. I too have fond memories of reading the buildup as a teen. I will have to dig those articles out!
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Hi everyone, I am Don, the other half of this partnership.
Kiwi Paul, I chatted with you at tech about the blue car and talked you in to some ice cream...
Looking forward to seeing the car tomorrow, we know the cage will need to be updated along with all the safety stuff, anything else we should be on the lookout for? I have a background in aircraft inspection and repair, will be looking for corrosion and cracked tubing and such. Any advice welcome. The plan would be to run the car as before, a small displacement Comp. Coupe.
Thanks in advance, this group is very helpful, can't wait to get started.
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CORROSION ---believe me with your back ground the only thing I would suggest is a sonic tester---something that old is most likely going to be sonic tested for thickness most likely
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Don---That Ice Cream hit the spot !! Tomorrow is my wife`s birthday, but mid afternoon PST might still work. Or else it will be Monday night.I have another fellow to talk to about it as well. Sparky has a point about Sonic testing, but the car has been stored since `94, and only had 5 trips there. I`ll go over some stuff with you, but try to get a complete list of what is with the car. I`ll try to give you a sense of the updates I can think of. Also may be a good place for one of Karl`s two wheel powerplants......KP...
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Sonic testing for thickness? What about just drilling a hole in a non-critical area, measuring with a dial caliper, and doing the math? I know that's the way it's done in some places.
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Our only sponsor, a truck salvage, donated a semi truck aero dam for us to use on the front of our trailer. Should help the mileage and keep the car clean. I plan on building storage inside it ala Stainless and Johnboy.
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Trimmers, not acceptable by SCTA/BNI poeple have drilled holes and brazed them for false thickness,
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Don---... I`ll go over some stuff with you..KP...
KiwiPaul,
Thanks a million for taking the time to call us as we were traveling back from seeing the car.
Your timing was perfect!!!
Your detailed, 1st hand knowledge of the build of that car + your Inspection Expertise is invaluable.
You have no idea how much we appreciate your thoughts. :cheers:
It has very pretty lines, both Don & I like it and can envision a 4cyl motorcycle engine dropping in.
Rust is almost non existent, somebody put serious time into cleaning it 20 years ago.
We are big boys (TFA!), so some size accommodations would have to be made if we go for it.
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb194/guntekd/IMG_0795_zpsadff122c.jpg)
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb194/guntekd/IMG_0793_zpsc57860df.jpg)
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb194/guntekd/IMG_0791_zps139d5de3.jpg)
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb194/guntekd/IMG_0804_zpsaaf8e562.jpg)
Smiley with his pride n' joy!
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb194/guntekd/IMG_0806_zps0b670149.jpg)
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(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb194/guntekd/IMG_0795_zpsadff122c.jpg)
....We are big boys (TFA!), so some size accommodations would have to be made if we go for it.....
Beautiful car.
I'm sure you are aware, but that room inside is going to shrink a lot more by the time you get a new cage in there with a bar by the door and the hoop around your head.
What are you plans on getting the power from the MC engine to the rear?
Sum
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Sumner,
thanks for your thoughts!
Yup, it'll be tight, probably have to enter from the top.
We are just "cogitating" at this point, but thinking of putting the motor front to back, drive shaft off the transmission output shaft.
I mean, how hard could it be???? LOLOLOLOL.
Karl
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We are just "cogitating" at this point, but thinking of putting the motor front to back, drive shaft off the transmission output shaft.
I mean, how hard could it be???? LOLOLOLOL.
Probably not that difficult Karl. If you Google "Dwarf Cars" you'll find a company in the Phoenix area that builds these cars for oval track and supplies all the parts. They run the engines with the crank running parallel to the centerline of the car back to a Toyota rear end.
Pete
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We are just "cogitating" at this point, but thinking of putting the motor front to back, drive shaft off the transmission output shaft.
I mean, how hard could it be???? LOLOLOLOL.
Probably not that difficult Karl. If you Google "Dwarf Cars" you'll find a company in the Phoenix area that builds these cars for oval track and supplies all the parts. They run the engines with the crank running parallel to the centerline of the car back to a Toyota rear end.
Pete
Pete I looked that that option with the lakester but didn't like the fact that gear ratios for those rear-ends are limited although they did have one tall gear rear but only one at that time. Then I considered coming off the trans-output shaft with the adapter to a jack shaft where I could then run sprockets/chain over to another shaft going back to the rear-end. That all started getting complicated and more HP loss so finally ended up with chain drive to the rear-end but the car is a rear engine car so no problem.
Not saying you can't run a MC engine up front but before considering it I'd really get a good approach nailed down and we are in a sport where final gear choices are important, and even more so with a small motor. I'd be interesting from hearing from those that have done this and how they feel about the results,
Sum
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You might look into running a GM 7.5" rear axle, lots of ratios, easy to find and reasonably cheap.
If I remember correctly Barkdoll/Hawley had a 7.5" in their Suzuki GSXR1000 powered S10 pickup.
Bill
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I wouldn't worry about the Toyota rear end. You could run whatever you wanted. The important part is the adaption to turn the engine from an East/West orientation with chain drive to North/South orientation with shaft drive.
Pete
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Pete & Sumner & BHR301,
thanks much for the info!
the dwarf car tip certainly helps with MC engine/driveshaft parts, looks like Suzuki 1000's in dwarf cars is very commonly done.
Being a motorcyle guy, I am certainly concerned with gearing possibilities/limitations. I believe I heard Smiley say the blue CC currently a 370+/- rear end in it now, but i don't mind at all reconfiguring the rear axle to GM 7.5" or whatever. It's great to get this info.
I just now spent an hour talking to Scott Horner about destroking a Busa from 1300 to 998cc. As always, he is FULL of info, he is building one of those currently.
Seems like everything is doable, just takes too much time and too much money.
Hey, this is just like like my bikes!!!!
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..... I believe I heard Smiley say the blue CC currently a 370+/- rear end in it now, but i don't mind at all reconfiguring the rear axle to GM 7.5" or whatever....
If you knew exactly which gear would be the perfect gear then the GM would work, but if you stay above a 2.47 rear gear ford would be much easier to do since you just change the center section out and could have a couple different ones and you don't have to deal with the 'c'-clip eliminators. The GM are a lot more work if you want to use multiple ratios.
I don't like the circle track quick change for cars running much over 225 due to their low ring/pinion ratios and the very high pinion speeds that can result, but for your application I'd look at them since you might want to make very small gearing changes to optimize the speed. A little more money up front for a used one but gear sets are not expensive and could be changed quickly on the salt.
The reason I was going to stay away form this approach was that if you can set up a car with chain drive and you are just changing sprockets for gear changes that can be very cheap and easy to do.
If you set the car up with no rear suspension you could easily run the motor up front chain geared to a long jackshaft that went back to the rear end and have a sprocket back there on the rear-end pinion snout. Run a fixed rear-end gear and fine tune with the sprockets on the jackshaft at one end or the other. Some HP loss but maybe something to look at.
Use the motorcycle spreadsheets I have to play with gearing...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html)
... and if you use the car rear-end just change the final sprocket tooth count to get the rear-end ratio that you would be using,
Sum
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Sum,
thanks much for taking the time to post all that very helpful info.
The more we know going in, the better :cheers:
karl
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Sumner...The Simca has a Monza/Skyhawk/Astre 7.5 style rearend with 8 inch Ford Axle Ends. The spline is the same..so it has 8 inch style axles. The 3.70 gear may work well for a Bike powerplant. Not sure of other ratios, though. 3.42 comes to mind, but I never checked any other ratio out when we ran the car, as it worked pretty well. Karl..Great to talk to you and Don on Sunday...keep me in the loop.. :-D
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you can pick up a GM Torsen diffs in the 2 and the 3 series available for them used off eba if no where else
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Kiwi Paul & Sparky,
Thanks for the info!
I plugged 3.70 into my bike rpm/gear/mph calculator and came up with extreme drag racing gearing.
hmmmm...
Probably excel is broken on my laptop (its a Mac) :-D
or I don't have the car's tire circumference right.
I'll figure it out
Karl
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Karl,
If you are looking into a Quick Change, consider a Winters 7 inch. Ratios as low as 2.25. I can fix you up with one.
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That rear has3.73 aparently-- 3.42 3.23 available and with a 2 series carrier 308 2.73 2.56 2.41 2.28 2.14
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Sparky,
ah.... a 2 series carrier...
That's the part i was missing. Seems it would be essential for a bike motor without using sprockets.
Joe,
I appreciate the offer, but so far we haven't committed to the CC.
I LOVE the shape of that lil car but we are still considering options. It is very tight for us TFA members. Doable, but very tight.
Karl
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.....I LOVE the shape of that lil car but we are still considering options. It is very tight for us TFA members. Doable, but very tight. Karl
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb194/guntekd/130807-Smileyscoupe_zpsa7774c49.jpg)
It is a beautiful car and ....
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb194/guntekd/IMG_0791_zps139d5de3.jpg)
..... I'm not knocking your body size, but put on the newer larger helmets, a fire suit and a full cage and I think that car might not be fun or easy to get in and out of. A roof exit might be possible but even there with the steering column and the top of the cage that might not really be an option. Maybe look at a rear engine modified roadster. That would solve a lot of these problems along with driving the rear with the MC engine. The class is now a lot more competitive than a few years ago but is basically a lakester with a body which was what you were looking at before,
Sum
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Kiwi Paul & Sparky,
Thanks for the info!
I plugged 3.70 into my bike rpm/gear/mph calculator and came up with extreme drag racing gearing.
hmmmm...
Probably excel is broken on my laptop (its a Mac) :-D
or I don't have the car's tire circumference right.
I'll figure it out
Karl
Karl, you Mac is right... remember the primary reduction in Bike motors and less than 1:1 tranny, even with a 28 inch tire needs a 250 rear to go fast
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Kiwi Paul & Sparky,
Thanks for the info!
I plugged 3.70 into my bike rpm/gear/mph calculator and came up with extreme drag racing gearing.
hmmmm...
Probably excel is broken on my laptop (its a Mac) :-D
or I don't have the car's tire circumference right.
I'll figure it out
Karl
Karl, you Mac is right... remember the primary reduction in Bike motors and less than 1:1 tranny, even with a 28 inch tire needs a 250 rear to go fast
stainless,
you never know what my left-wing Mac is gonna come up with :-D
18/40 on my Busa = 2.22,
Sparky gave: "3.42 3.23 available and with a 2 series carrier 308 2.73 2.56 2.41 2.28 2.14"
so it looks like the waterfront is covered.
Anyway, you and others are running the GSXR & Busa motors, so I knew there was a way to do it.
This is fun!
WTH didn't i get the circumference from the blue CC? dumbo me.
Karl
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Don`t ask me either...Seems I remember that a 28'' tire wouln`t fit with the rear suspension the way it is. Think there is a 26" Frontrunner on there. Coudn`t swear to it, though..... :? :cheers:
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....Anyway, you and others are running the GSXR & Busa motors, so I knew there was a way to do it....
Ask him what rear-end they are using and how they are driving it and if they have made gearing changes :-).
If you make gearing changes it is much simpler, less expensive and quicker to do it with sprockets or quick change gears vs. different rear-ends. We have done it with the transmission gears, but the transmission wasn't that cheap, but once bought the gear sets aren't that expensive. We will probably make a rear-end change for next year and then fine tune with the transmission again.
......This is fun! Karl
Yes it is, enjoy,
Sum