Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Malcolm UK on April 20, 2006, 04:13:12 PM
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Andy Green - The World Record Holder - will drive a diesel streamliner called the "JCB Diesel Max" on the Bonneville Salt Flats, to not only exceed the class fastest speed of 235mph (SCTA World Record) but to go over 300mph.
Andy clearly wants to get full membership of the 200 Club and the 300 Chapter. In '98 the MGF went 'tech' on him so he did not get to run during speed week (or at any later event).
Looks like he is after an SCTA/BNI World record, as the streamliner needs a 50 mph push start.
(My guess is that he no longer holds an FIA drivers licence)
www.thesun.co.uk is where the story has run today.
Malcolm
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006180288,,00.html
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This is the complete call out for the web page
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006180288,,00.html
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What the reader should know is that Pork Pie 'scooped' this story last year after one of his US visits when he met Andy at the salt flats. At that time the details and car name were not released but the goal was.
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Here's a top-secret undercover photo of Andy and his crew mixing a batch of experimental fruit and plant derived diesel fuel for his record attempt. Speedweek, 2005.
Nick 3rd.
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Andy Green - The World Record Holder - will drive a diesel streamliner called the "JCB Diesel Max" on the Bonneville Salt Flats, to not only exceed the class fastest speed of 235mph (SCTA World Record) but to go over 300mph.
Andy clearly wants to get full membership of the 200 Club and the 300 Chapter. In '98 the MGF went 'tech' on him so he did not get to run during speed week (or at any later event).
Looks like he is after an SCTA/BNI World record, as the streamliner needs a 50 mph push start.
(My guess is that he no longer holds an FIA drivers license)
www.thesun.co.uk is where the story has run today.
Malcolm
How , when , where , and why did the FIA and FIM rule change to prohibit a push start.
Does that mean that all the FIA/FIM records set with a push start are now retired ?
Is it possible they were unable to manage a problem and made another ill considered
rule from the top of their head.
I think I see a pattern.
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FIM you can tow it but you cannot push it as of this year
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Andy wants to get into the 200 club because I hear the meetings of the 700 club are fairly quiet.
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FIM you can tow it but you cannot push it as of this year
Is that to start it? Seems like a tow start would be dangerous.
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FIM you can tow it but you cannot push it as of this year
Is that to start it? Seems like a tow start would be dangerous.
I think you may have your FIA and FIM mixed up.
Done wrong, both can be dangerous but has been done correctly for many years.
Push the car, tow the bike has been the standard.
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The FIM (for bikers) have allowed towed starts for full streamliners that require stability after Richard Brown and I got the rule re-instated in '98 for the rocket bike. Towing was needed for safety. There had been an accident that meant for a while no FIM records could be set by towing.
The FIA (for car lovers) have had a no pushing rule for at least ten years maybe even more. It is written that the vehicle must move from rest under its own power, even for a 'flying start' speed record. In theory you could push start the vehicle to get the motor running but then the vehicle has to be stopped. Once stationary it can then move off under the drivers control.
If there have been any push started FIA records allowed to enter the books then the whole system will be a mess.
You may recall that Primetime e=motion electric car differed from the Buckeye Bullet in this regard. Pushing an electric not only allows a higher gearing but it saves a massive amount of the stored energy.
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Before FIA and FIM hold hands with each other and jump off the cliff together, they might do well to ask someone who knows.
The first guy to burn his fingers on fire was probably happy to share the experience.
If he chose to keep it secret, he probably deserved watching.
In either case others should learn from him.
Push for cars and tow for bikes has been done for years by the racers for FIA and FIM records and not just to start the motor.
One of the most filmed record starts was the Summers boys that used 2 station wagons.
If the rules were to really change, the existing records would have to be retired if the thought was carried out to it's logical conclusion.
I guess logic was bypassed to cover a burn instead of an appropriate action.
When rules makers don't have time to think first, they are going to get burned again. :wink:
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Hey guys-
I am just starting to work on a documentary on the 2006 Speedweek for a major cable network. I was hoping the forum could help me out.
1. Anyone have contact info for Andy?
2. I want to begin identifying some larger than life characters in the land racing world that I could follow the preparations for August. I would definitely like to feature a few female racers and one newbie racing for the first time. I am thinking a streamliner, biker, and one or two vintage auto classes.
I appreciate all your help and if you have ideas Private message me and I'll give you my email so we can chat off the board.
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What ever happened to the Primetime E=Motion car and does anyone know what problems they were having with the car in the USA??
Lee
ps. I am not sure if I will have my car pushed or not yet. I probably will and just go for the Bonneville record the first time.
I almost forgot !!! Have you seen the latest Audi !! Turbo Diesel for Le Mans!!
LM1 doing pretty good in the USA Le Mans series I bet it would do over 200mph at Daytona!!
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The FIA rule as applied by the British governing body and I assume followed by some of the US racers who have run outright wheeldriven without a push, is Art 227.1.1 - which says that "The vehicle must be stationary with or without engine running before restarting and it must start by its own means of propulsion under the control of an official".
I had heard about the Goldenrod station wagons and some help for Blue Flame but it has to be assumed that the runs were not permitted as counting towards the records set. JackD will no doubt have the complete story.
e=motion suffered some form of periodic problem with the drive voltages and currents 'zapping' the control circuit and a small PC board - how about that for a non engineering description. All is said to have been solved, but we find out here in the UK in May. Car is re-geared for UK airfield action.
There is a website for Andy's latest ride at www.jcbdieselmax.com Contact could be made with the JCB team there. Some of the packaging & body shaping has been done by SSC aero designer, Ron Ayers. Looks as though August speedweek is there goal - so no FIA there?
Malcolm
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mixing a batch of experimental fruit and plant derived diesel fuel for his record attempt. Speedweek, 2005.
Is this not the famous 3 hp tequila mixer from the Bean Bandit? or is this just a copy........
To the push start, all FIA records which was set in the last year - Jim True, Don Vesco, Al Teague and the fatal attempt from Nolan White was all push starts, also Terry Nish, if he goes for the Summers Brothers record, has to push his racer on the starting line....
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Then No World Record right?? if no FIA??
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Lee,
today there is only one World Record - this is the unlimited Class - set by Andy Green with the Thrust SSC.
All the other records are Internatinol Land Speed Records under the FIA regulation.
All the records in the last years, which used the push start , are recognized by the FIA and official certified.
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Andy Green - The World Record Holder - will drive a diesel streamliner called the "JCB Diesel Max" on the Bonneville Salt Flats, to not only exceed the class fastest speed of 235mph (SCTA World Record) but to go over 300mph.
Let's not also forget that even though they are going after the 235 mph "streamliner" record, which JCB Diesel implies is the diesel record on their web site, that the diesel record is held by the late Carl Heap (one of my heros) at 272 mph and some change with the Phoenix, which is about as far from a streamliner as you can get. I think his fasest one way run was 285. I wanted him to get the 300 he was trying for so bad that last year he ran. I really miss seeing him and the truck run down course.
c ya, Sum
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I used Summers as a most familiar example but their are a number of others at all speeds including my own.
Make a good rule for a good reason and and the appropriate enforcement will be good also. :wink:
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Lee,
today there is only one World Record - this is the unlimited Class - set by Andy Green with the Thrust SSC.
All the other records are International Land Speed Records under the FIA regulation.
All the records in the last years, which used the push start , are recognized by the FIA and official certified.
It appears that changes to suit the applicant are only valid until the next one comes along.
Bikes had a World Record listed and the succession of the record holder was also listed.
That was done in the 70s for a good reason and with the full knowledge of the affected parties.
It is changed now for somebody else and their reason that was never explained to the affected
parties that held those records.
"Influence is where you find it."
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The today situation with the FIA records.
In the 60's when the jet cars pushed the records to a new limit, the FIA has to change the categories in the record list.
The first jet record was certified by the FIM - this was the 1963 Craig Breedlove Three Wheeler Spirit of America - the first official from the FIA recognized jet engine record was the late Tom Green 1964 record with the Walt Arfons Wingfoot Express.
Today there are two groups of record list.
The unlimited class - categorie C - means thrust powered vehicle - split in Jet engine and Rocket engine.
The faster of the two record are the absolute World Land Speed Record - this is today Andy Green with the Thrust SSC from the 15 October 1997.
But the Gary Gabelich record with the Blue Flame rocket car still counts as the fastest - in the his categorie.
By the way, there is no different between single and twin jet engine - some people mention that Richard Noble's Thrust II record is still the single record holder, but this is wrong.
The wheel driven records are called International Land Speed Records.
The wheel driven record is split in two base catogeries - blown and unblown.
There is NO different between gas and fuel so as the national records from the Speedweek, World of Speed and World Final - this is only a USFRA/BNI/SCTA specification.
For the blown records there is also no different between turbo and supercharger, all runs under blown.
The blown and unblown piston engine catogeries are split in 11 different engine size categories, the size is a little bit different than the national records, as a example - national is 61 cubic inch (1 litre), the FIA is 66 cubic inch (1.1 litre).
This for the piston engine.
Turbine (Don Vesco), Electric (White Lightning) and Diesel are running in three different weight categories.
For all categories - unlimit and wheeldriven - is one rule the same - all four (or more wheels - Spirit of America Sonic Arrow got five) wheels had to be on the ground :shock: :wink:
If this not push start - as Malcolm wrote - is really on the rule book, than it was never used in the last year - all the records was official recognized.
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To my old friend Carl Heap - one of the greatest guys at the salt ever - here some picture from the last Phoenix version, when Carl was coming so close to the 300 mark.
There is a model from the version which set the first 250 mph record available - see www.ugofadini.com
please, don't forget - all pictures are under my copyrights, thank you
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Due to this, that the system allowed me only to attach three pictures, here a fourth picture.
Sorry the bad quality, I have to reduce the data size extremely to get it on the web site.
Enjoy it.
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I sent an e-mail observation on the British Diesel
record plans to the Sun that mentioned among other
things that the US had a Diesel truck that might
help them at least over 270 mph.
We are always anxious to help when friends are in need.
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Sumner - I know for sure that consultant to the JCB Dieselmax team - Ron Ayers - is well aware of the truck record and the truck itself after a visit to the Black Rock on its trailer in '97.
What you have to remember is that in Europe and in most cases elsewhere, the only record that you officially break is that already achieved in your class for which you vehicle is eligible by its design and cubic capacity. So for Andy & the record speed to break is the streamliner 235/236 mph. You will know from the publicity that Andy is hungry for a 300 chapter entry, so Carl's speed will be exceeded, even though his record will remain (possibly for some time). As some team members have already reached the pinnacle for wheeled vehicles you can probably guess that when they say the fastest they mean it!
Thanks JackD for putting the Sun newspaper straight - they may not understand the subte wording. This is after all a tabloid paper that has a topless or naked lady on page 3 every day!
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Gale Banks will be surprised , shocked, and hurt that his project
nor his results will be featured in a tabloid paper with neked wimins.
I wonder if he knows about the backwards approach ?
The "Flight of the Phoenix" was a good movie but the
truck by the same name is a better story and certainly for real.
I know the truck project often featured guys with no shirts, but that was a
different deal altogether.
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It's doesn't matter what Andy Green with his team or the Gale Banks Team will, also the Chassis Engineering Group has a chance to go 300 mph, but what the late Carl Heap done with the mighty Phoenix is out of this world.
To today I still got the opinion, if Carl was not so serious ill, when he runs the 285 mph in August 2003, he had the chance to break the 300 barrier, a model of the truck was checked in a windtunnel and the result was the possibility of 308 mph.
In one run Carl was 15 mph faster than ever in the 2 1/4, but than he had to shut down the run, due to this that a connector on the gas pedal went loose and he couldn't shift anymore - he still done 264 mph in this run.
What we have really to see, is that the Phoenix is a 9 1/2 ton truck with a unbelievable cross section, which has at first to be "pressed" thru the air, otherwise you can say it.
The other cars are thin streamliner with a cross section which is about 15 percent of the Phoenix. The different between this racer are too big, like a melon and a plum :wink:
Seeing this from this point of view, Carls achievment is one of the great moments in LSR historie and will be forever one of my biggest highlights I saw at the salt.
I wish all the diesel competitor a safe and successful attempt - borders are there to be broken - like the electric racers show it before.
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Sumner........
What you have to remember is that in Europe and in most cases elsewhere, the only record that you officially break is that already achieved in your class for which you vehicle is eligible by its design and cubic capacity. So for Andy & the record speed to break is the streamliner 235/236 mph. You will know from the publicity that Andy is hungry for a 300 chapter entry, so Carl's speed will be exceeded, even though his record will remain (possibly for some time). As some team members have already reached the pinnacle for wheeled vehicles you can probably guess that when they say the fastest they mean it!
Malcolm the car is beautiful and I really look forward to seeing it run and hope the best for them and that they get the record and that Andy gets into the 2 and 3 club, but.........
.......I object to these "factory" type teams hyping what they are doing and implying something other than what they are doing.
For instance this is a quote from their site 20 April 2006
JCB TARGETS NEW DIESEL LAND SPEED RECORD JCB is aiming to set a new land speed record for diesel vehicles with a super sleek streamliner car to be driven by Wing Commander Andy Green...
This is from their site and not a tabloid. There are others similar statements on their site.
I feel that most readers of this would assume they were trying to break the present record for "all" diesel powered vehicles and to do that they only had to run faster than 236 and not the 272 that Carl's record is. Why don't they mention his record and say they are trying to become the "outright" overall fastest diesel powered car? Now I'm not trying to put you in the position of defending them, just pointing out that in my opinion these factory deals are for the most part about sales and to be used as advertising opportunities and the facts are sometimes twisted to achive both of those and what others have accomplished are treated as if they didn't happen.
c ya, Sum
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The factory efforts are the most fun to knock off.
The less publicity you get is a sign of the better job you did.
Personal satisfaction and recognition from your
peers will outlast the tabloid
paper by a long shot as soon as their interest
turns to the 2 headed chicken and the dancing girls
that are so important to them. :wink:
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Yes contenders that look as though they are factory backed teams have to operate in a different environment to 'club' racers. But it may be necessary to divorce the vehicle operating team from the publicity machinery that runs in parallel to the on track operations.
The ABB backed 'e=motion' car operated by the Primetime team, as last years example, was a case where the vehicle operating team did no publicity, whilst ABB as the title sponsor ran and hosted a website and 'fed' the press. And we spent hours after the event discussing whose record speed was the most appropriate to quote.
You will recall BAR Honda have a programme that is heavily promoted for the tobacco sponsors benefit. (Call it an F1 car if you will - but it has a 'steering' rearing wing!) This event is being created just for the news and publicity coverage.
The problem often lies (probably) at the door of a PR department where a person with no passion for the subject and only a small amount of knowledge .... has to create a readable press release, website, or other promotion.
Apart from those with knowledge of Bonneville motorsport, the Carl Heap truck would probably not register away from the US shores. A great shame, but a fact of life. And if a researcher or journalist has a short time to 'find out what the fastest diesel car is' he/she will probably not find refernce to it. I do not think Carl gets an entry in the Guinness Book of Records, although it should be there.
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A listing in the "Guiness Beer Record Book" (yes, I know the book was sold) for the Truck
could have arranged by Carl if he thought it was important to list the speed there.
I think he was more of the type to enjoy recounting how many Beers went into the construction.
The Science of Trucks is more important to more people than Streamliners.
As far as the Tabliods are concerned, the quality of the story inside is often properly judged by the cover.
The BARF1 project was another one that ate itself. :wink:
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All the talk about Andy Green going 300 with the JBC oil burner, I'll bet that the Chassis Research no. 989 C/DS car will go 300 first. Looking back through some results they went 292 in 2004. If they can get a good full run I would love to see them be the first diesel over 300!
Karl Heap had enough horse power to go 400++++ if it was in a liner. I used to kid him that he had to be careful of which way he ran that thing as he might knock the earth of its axis, lucky the course did not run east-west as he could have changed the time zones! Miss him and his big green truck.
Rex
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"I know another Green that is going to miss him if he can't get a push."
If the British liner is successful it will be remembered, but all the good
stories will be about the evolution of the truck. :wink:
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July 06 Motor Trend Magazine has a small article on the liner on page 34. Two 2 stage turbo 4.4 JCB Dieselmax diesels bored to 5.0. 4WD, one motor in front of driver & one in rear behind him with 2 seperate linked 6 speed trans & paddle shifters. Weighs 2.7 tons, burns 2 gallons every 2 minutes, 358 inches long, drag coefficient of 0.174, total HP of 1500. Nice looking car