Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Hans Blom on March 03, 2006, 12:47:53 PM
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Is there any special rule or fact that deals with the fact that , for example some bikes that are 650cc are actually 654cc to begin with? I know you are allowed a minimal overbore, but what if you are at 654 go your first over size .....
thanks, hans
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if your bike is 654 to start with it would be legal for the 750 production class not the 650 production class cuz overbores are not legal in production. if ya are running M or A classes you are allowed a .020 overbore. +20 on a single isnt crap... +20 on a 4 or 6 cylinder may put ya close to 700cc!!!! still legal for the 650 class. feel lucky cuz the car boys arnt allowed any overbore past max displacement for class. but dont get caught cheeting they'll take away all your points, your momma's points and keep ya from getting points for next year........ LOL
kent
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[/quote]. but dont get caught cheeting they'll take away all your points, your momma's points and keep ya from getting points for next year........ LOL
kent[/quote]
When you cheat you need to be penalized!!!!!!!
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Hunh -- 650's are really 654's? for years I've told my insurance companies that my (for instance) 1200 is really an 1199 -- I say "The factory builds 'em that way so we can have an insurance rate for the 1100 - 1199 size, not the 1200+ size. And 600's are really 599, and well, whatever.
Nancy's 250 measured out to 249.7 -- Dale Martin measured it, gave me this quizzical look and asked if we had done a cleanup bore on it -- No, but I'll spray it with the CO2 next time just to be sure. Or maybe we'll just show up in impound with the engine resting in a block of ice. . .
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If your motor came from the manufacturer with a displacement of 654c.c. then you are in the 750 class whether it be production, A, or M. If your motor came originally and a 649c.c. and you cleaned the bore out to 654c.c. then you are in the 650 class.
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All of that was started for the sole benefit of a friend of the lone tech guy with a 2 smoke. The first year he tried to get it through it was determined to not be required for the bikes anymore than anything else. The overbore means something different for every engine size and has no more validity now than it did then. When it was explained to the board they shot the idea down. The next year it snuck by them like so many other things and is ridicules.
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Very true. The point I was trying to make was that if a motor comes from the manufacturer with a displacement of 654 c.c. then it falls into the 750 class. Or am I reading the rules wrong? Does a 654 c.c. motor that comes from the factory with that displacement qualify as a 650 for the purpose of class definition?
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If I lost a bore size in a modern bike I usually could just resleeve it. In a vintage bike You might want to resleeve it to get it back to stock pistons you have, recover an otherwise damaged jug, or even increase the material strength.
I really doubt very many have used that abortion of a rule but that is not as bad as what they want to do with the cases.
REMARKABLE
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If your motor came from the manufacturer with a displacement of 654c.c. then you are in the 750 class whether it be production, A, or M. If your motor came originally and a 649c.c. and you cleaned the bore out to 654c.c. then you are in the 650 class.
You read it right the first time, that doesn't make it right with the rest of the world.
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Thank you. I never was any good at reading between the lines.
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hans
what kinda bike are ya talking about?
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What the rule means when you read it is not always what they meant to say.
Why they even tried to say it escapes the logic of many. :wink:
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So when the rulebook says 650 c.c I might be able to sneak in a turbo Hyabusa without them noticing?
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Halfa Busa anyway.
Be sure to safety wire your drain plug. I know you cant use a car for an example , but look around.
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Wow, never imagined this much response, great! Specifically a BSA A65. They have a 75mm bore and a 74mm stroke which comes out to 653.8cc. I am building a bike to run in several modified classes. No production at the moment. I will having custom pistons made anyway, if I have to I guess we could sleeve and machine some pistons a hair smaller, but I would rather not. With a stock stroke I would need a 74.78mm bore instead of a 75mm, not taking any honing into account. It's funny, I'm not sure why but some manuals will list all a65 bikes as 650cc except for the Lightning Clubman which is listed as 654, but this is just in the specs, it was called a 650 like all the rest. I want to do this not only for the fun of it, but of course I want MY name in the record book too! I would have a hell of time competing with 750 Trumps and HDs and my little 654 BSA....
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Also for the unknowing the A65 is a 60s, early 70s bike, no vintage here. So I guess this particular type of motor would never be allowed to run in production650 since it is over 650cc. What is the process when measuring a bike? If they measure a 650 class bike for instance and it comes to 655, do they look up the specs on that particular bike, figure the new cyl volume with an .020 bore and make sure it is under that new larger volume? As was mentioned earlier, a 20 over 50cc single doesn't gain near as much volume as a 4 or 6(cbx) cyl would. Percentage wise it might be a bit more but I digress. I just want to make for damn sure when I arrive to run in 650 modified I am allowed to do so and do so with in the rules.
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+20 on a 50cc single does make a big difference. the tech guys dont care what displacement the manufacturer calls it, all they do is check bore, stroke and take overbore into account. do your math correctly and you should be able to run your bsa in the 650 class the same as all the triumph 650 guys do
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A bike engine in a car gets whatever it measures to the inch. A 60 inch motor that measures 60.900 isn't 61 until it measures 61 or above.
A bike has the overbore allowance for the same dumb reason the cars seem to do without.
So the same motor in a bike might be OK but too big for a car.
If you follow that logic "The smell may vary but the view will always be the same". :roll:
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Hans, Nortonist has it correct. If the bike was originally built as a 653cc production motorcycle it runs in 750 production. Period.
It is important to stay within the "spirit of the rule", an oft used line from your friendly Tech Inspector! The overbore rule was introduced to allow racers one overbore and get a little more life out of their cylinders, basically a cost saving measure to help the racers budget. It was not intended to allow people to build a bogus oversize engine that stretches the limits of the rulebook.
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I guess you did not see it happen and on who's behalf. The car guys laughed it down for their use. :roll:
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A bike engine in a car gets whatever it measures to the inch. A 60 inch motor that measures 60.900 isn't 61 until it measures 61 or above.
A bike has the overbore allowance for the same dumb reason the cars seem to do without.
So the same motor in a bike might be OK but too big for a car.
This concept has confused me, not hard to do, and I have wondered about it. I'm using a 750 cc Suzuki with a bore & Stroke of 2.834 & 1.811 in my lakester. Using the SCTA formula: bore x bore x .7854 x stroke x number of cylinders the motor is 45.70 cu. in. and 0.7488 liters.
The rule book says J Class is 31 thru 45 cid [ Approx. Liter Equiv. of (0.51 to 0.75)]. I Class is 46 thru 61 cid. So I'm over 45, but under 46, but it says "thru 45 cid", so I'm thinking that means up to 45.999999, so I'm OK. Am I right :?: :?:
One other thing when they are measuring (with tools, not air or oil), what are they measuring to, tenths, hundreds, or thousands of an inch? If I measure the above to hundreds then the motor is 45.54 cid.
Looks like no overbore for sure :cry: . Of course all of this is meaningless unless you actually set a record and I have my doubts I'll be doing that. I will have some fun though :D .
c ya, Sum
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You are right about how you read it and deserve to be confused.
The bore is measured to 1/1000 of an inch if direct measured.
You will set a record, you just have to work at it and a big part of that is don't repeat the mistakes of others.
The overbore allowance for a bike answers the same question as "How deep should a hole be?" :wink:
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Yamma
Ya got it wrong man... although the spirit is good.... the written rule is what is governed!!!!!!!! I'll say it again... the tech guys don?t care what a manufacturer calls the bike as long as your engine measures within the allowable limit it will be legal. Do the math! good example... Keenan Tatro takes a 900cc sportster and runs it in 500cc and 650cc class all the time!!!! has tons of records!!!! how did he do it???? he did the math!!
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The reason it does not apply to production is because the person that wanted it does not run production. Is that so hard to figure and does it have the same validity as the rest of the application ?
The hydraulic method developed by the bikers prior to all this overbore stupidity is really pretty accurate. If it measures you in excess if the class limit, it is up to you to take it apart and show them how unless of course they take your word for it.
Consistent fair application and the ability to do the math are presumed to be skills that are highly developed on the part of the tech leaders but you suspect I suspect otherwise. :wink:
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Scott
Your on the right track... the letter of the rule (not spirit to be left to interpolation) is measurement!!! You can take a 1290 busa and bore it to 1350 then add .020 to each of the 4 holes and still run in the 1350 class. lots and lots 1363 busas running in the 1350 class. In this case 650cc +. 020. Again... they don?t care about claimed displacement!!! The tech guys will measure the hole and then the stroke and after they play with a calculator for a little while they will tell ya if you?re legal or not. DO THE MATH you may be legal for the 650 class
kent
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So why is it when I enquired about putting a set of new 2006 bandit cylinders that measure 656cc on my 750 gixxer so I could run in 650 class TECH said NO!
If you do the math, sure a 650 engine bored 0.020 is more than 656cc, so on purely a measured basis, the 656cc engine would be legal. The problem is ....it's purpose built to curcumvent the rule which clearly reads... TO PERMIT RECONDITIONING OF A WORN BLOCK. In this case the 656 engine has NEW cylinders and hasn't been re-bored, so it's NOT LEGAL.
So..... do we have a lot of ILLEGAL BUSA'S running around???? or am I running under the wrong flag?
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You measure 656 cc ,are above 650, you are are therefore in the 750 class.
The overbore allowance was intended for a small 2 smoke that didn't want to buy or sleeve a new jug.
On a 4 stroke, make the displacement smaller and that is a lot cheaper than a lot of head work on a larger setup. :wink:
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So why is it when I enquired about putting a set of new 2006 bandit cylinders that measure 656cc on my 750 gixxer so I could run in 650 class TECH said NO!
I've completely lost track on this thread, but if you are running "production" I could see where they could have said "no" because you were changing the cylinders on the motor to ones that didn't come on the motor, not just "adjusting" the bore size of the stock cylinders.
Just a thought,
Sum
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Many, many, moons ago we had a 1300 c.c. class.....I ran a big bore KZ
Kawa that I knew was 1260c.c......
the oil-pump method showed it to be over 1300c.c.....had to tear the motor down to show I was right (1260c.c.) so how accurate is the oil-pump.....is it better these days???? Or do they now know what they are doing??? Lets hope so !!!
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Sum, my request was for a modified bike.
My question now is: If I got my request turned down by Tech to build a 656cc bike to run in 650 based on "it doesn't fall within the spirit of the overbore rule, which was designed to allow a re-bore of old cylinders" WTF are all these 1363 Busa's doing running in the 1350 class? Looks like a double standard to me.
The production guys (me included) didn't want the overbore rule. It was some guy running a flathead Harley who couldn't find new cylinders.
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Many, many, moons ago we had a 1300 c.c. class.....I ran a big bore KZ
Kawa that I knew was 1260c.c......
the oil-pump method showed it to be over 1300c.c.....had to tear the motor down to show I was right (1260c.c.) so how accurate is the oil-pump.....is it better these days???? Or do they now know what they are doing??? Lets hope so !!!
It is only as accurate as your leak down will permit.
If you can cc a chamber accurately you will understand. :wink:
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Sum, my request was for a modified bike.
My question now is: If I got my request turned down by Tech to build a 656cc bike to run in 650 based on "it doesn't fall within the spirit of the overbore rule, which was designed to allow a re-bore of old cylinders" WTF are all these 1363 Busa's doing running in the 1350 class? Looks like a double standard to me.
The production guys (me included) didn't want the overbore rule. It was some guy running a Flathead Harley who couldn't find new cylinders.
It was a 1 lung 2 smoke guy. It is common practice to re sleeve an old HD for example to get better material and improved strength. It was put forward by Dale Martin and laughed out of the room by the board when it was pointed out to them and the next year it got by them.
It is a bad rule that never should have happened.
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yama
ya must have asked the wrong person. I ran a bored 600 block on my gsxr 750 cases to set a record in my bike 'liner. the only way that would not be legal would be in the production class.
kr
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When did the 650 a few open bike ever measure below 650 and the class limit?
The liner measured how big again ?
The overbore allowance,why does it not apply to the Production class, isn't it just as not valid ? :wink:
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649 john made my pistinz. compression was bout 17-1. cronking pressure was over 270. the thing hauled ass
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Over 650 would have made it a little tough. :wink:
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What a strange rule?
Running some numbers on it, it basically gives you a 1-3% tolerance for engine displacement based on engine configuration. And as much as a 5% for a weird engine configuration like a 50cc four cylinder with a Stroke that?s twice the Bore?
If I interpret it correctly, for my engine with a 3.5? bore and a 3.125? stroke we get:
For production I can bore the motor to 3.5258? (3.500?+.0258?) and stay legal for production at 500cc.
3.5258?^2*3.125*pi/4 = 499.75cc
Since I can?t find a +.025? piston, I can go with a +.015? or +.020? piston that?s commonly available and be under 500CC and still OK for Production.
Conceivably, I can then bore the motor .020? more than 3.5258? and be within 500cc altered or modified rules (but not Production).
3.5458?^2*3.125*pi/4 = 505.68 cc
Which gives me a 1.14% increase over 500cc. Of course, finding a +.0458? piston is again going to be impossible without getting some made, so I?d have to settle for a commonly available +.030 piston which will give me a 501cc engine.
The 501cc engine will be legal for 500cc A or M, but here is where I?m confused. Is it illegal for 650 because it?s not over the maximum for 500 for this particular engine configuration?? My brain says It?s illegal for 650 in this configuration (I?d need to get a piston bigger than 3.5458?), but my gut?s telling me that I?d get away with it.
I also wonder how much of a hassle it?s going to be trying to explain why a +.030? engine is legal under the +.020? rule, but I digress?
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Your mistake was to apply logic to the rule after thinking about it.
The origin and continued application of the rule speaks to the level of understanding , selective enforcement, and benefit it has for some.
There are worse things that represent even less thought. :roll:
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looks like i'll be destroking and staying in M or a class. ..thanks for all the input guys...
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jprovo,
you can run your motor in the 500cc class and the over displacement will be noted in the log book. set all the 500cc records you can and then call your motor a 650cc and run on those records. altho you may be at quite a big disadvantage. you are over the allowable displacement making it legal for the next bigger class. funny and weird but hey well take it if the let us. they dont let the car boys get away with it.
kr
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Sorry to inform you, I already asked the question on the .010 overbore rule. they would not allow you to move into the next class if you claimed overbore for next lower class. The overbore rule is only for stock motors that don't have room.
For instance Joe's Zx10 motor is 998 stock. to allow for minor reconditioning of cylinders they allow .010 for cylinder cleanup. I was told that this will not put you into the next class... Orginally the .010 overbore rule was for vintage stuff where replacement parts are not available.
I would think there might be some problems with that in tech...
I already asked and been down that road... I wanted to do that with my ZX6. Stock I am 598cc... I said ok then if you allow overbore to cylinder reconditioning I would go .010 over 650cc then run in next class.. This was several years ago...
Now thats all based on how one interprets the rules, and I was told I was not in spirit of the rule... You know the unwritten rule... The ones that bite you in the ass in tech inspection... Just when you think you have intpreted something and made a pretty good assumption only to be shot down...
Now my thoughts have changed... There is only one record I want, and thats a fast one... not interested in the class changing deal...
Jon
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jprovo your math is right, but you will run the risk of problems in tech or impound if you jump classes. As you know there is a direct bolt on 515 kit for the blast that will do the trick without splitting the cases. With a little pre planning you could grow your motor on the salt although you will have plenty other things to worry about your first time out :D .
By the way, welcome to the board ... I've seen your post on the Buell thumper site before. All these class permutations can be a disease you know? Just to let you know your not alone, I've remained silent on the thump er site as our development work proceeds but I'll give you a sneak peek at our new play toy.
Good luck with your plans jprovo.
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2005 rule book, production class. "OEM engine displacement determines the displacement class for competition. Displacement may not be increased beyond that class limit."
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you stroke it .010 longer with an offset grind you are a 650.
Who is the joke on ?
:roll:
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The way this thread is fudging around the rules I think if we did'nt have bikes we'd definitely have roadsters.
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The new bike rules are as ill advised as any you have ever seen and the objective as clear as fudge.
At least the car guys are starting to pin down the size of the roadster.
"A design that failed or failed by design."
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We have in the club archives some SCTA minutes from the late 30s, early 40s. The minutes from March 17, 1941 has Vic Edlebrock "attempting to define a roadster" Things have'nt changed that much.
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2006 Rules and Records Dry Lake Speed Trials:
7.B.13 Engine size: Displacement must be greater than the maximum allowable for the next lower class. To permit minor reconditioning of worn cylinder blocks, in classes other than Production, it is permitted to increase cylinder bore diameter .020 inch (.508mm) beyond that which provides maximum displacement for the class. In all cases, the resulting displacement must be exceeded to qualify for the next higher class. The .020-inch (.508mm) will be discounted for record certification and will be noted on the certification card and in the logbook.
7.J.1 Production: Production engines must be the same model as the model of the frame being used and must have STOCK EXTERNAL APPEARANCE. Production motorcycles must use OEM cylinders, heads and crankcases to comply with this class. OEM engine displacement determines the displacement class for competition. Displacement may not be increased beyond that class limit. Starting mechanism must be retained and operable. Carburetors or throttle bodies must be OEM for that model production engine. All production engines run in gas class. (See Section 7.D.3)
7.J.10 Class VG and VF: Same as Class G or F, except that the class is limited to motorcycle engines produced prior to 1956. For reasons of historical authenticity, vintage engine modifications are restricted to older technology levels, so far as is practical. Accordingly, in classes VF, VG, VBF and VBG, newer technologies, such as EFI or electronic reactive ignition systems, are not in keeping with the spirit of the Vintage Classes and are not allowed. Computers are allowed for data collection purposes only.
Engines must utilize O.E.M. crankcase, O.E.M. cylinders on flatheads and two strokes and O.E.M. heads on O.H.V. engines. Above components made after 1955 and exact reproductions may be considered legal in Vintage classes if they offer no competitive advantage. Pre installation approval by the contest board is required. It is the entrant?s responsibility to provide documentation and samples. A .050 inch overbore is allowed on vintage engines only (including production vintage) and will be discounted when the bore size is measured.
Flathead engine displacement will be discounted 33 1/30/0 in determining engine displacement class limits. For example a 1500cc measured displacement would run as a 1000cc.
Note that for Production classes what the O.E.M. calls the displacement is what matters, not anything you can do to it later.
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The clean up over bore is just as valid for the Production MC as anything else unless
the friend the rule was made for doesn't run Production as has been pointed out.
If you are a car guy, the blocks must be cheap enough you don't need it even if you run a MC motor.
All that stupidity is very telling isn't it.
And you thought it couldn't get worse ?
Brace yourself. :roll:
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The rule states for the production class that "OEM engine displacement determines the displacement class for competition. Displacement may not be increased beyond that class limit." So from what I can read the rule says you don't get the .020 overbore for production class.
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If you follow that logic to it's obvious conclusion then Scott's 30 year flat heads
are allowed nothing because ya just had to be there.
I saw the overbore deal tried the first time and with a little enlightenment the Board laughed it down.
The proponent even lied to say it was common in other racing but he was unable to name any.
The next time the following year it was snuck by them.
If you are a car guy that uses a bike motor, none of this counts and you need different friends.
And there you have it. :roll:
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Scott Guthrie, You are correct on all but the flathead displacement "advantage". They get to according to the rules run a 50% greater displacement than the class limit. i.e. a 750cc flathead Harley or Indian or whatever you have runs with 500cc OHV. To me it looks like an AMA leftover.
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SaltyBlaster-
Great bike, I'm going to be taking notes on it as soon as we get the P-PP bike finished. Maybe copy it for my streetbike!! I'm hoping to run at El mirage this year, but progress is slow. Nothing a lot of time and money can't fix :)
James
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I do believe that the advantage applies only in the vintage class. But I'm open to correction.
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Not all the jokes are in the rule book. :wink:
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...and not all the Jokers on this site are playing with a full deck.......... :wink:
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Some are not playing and take it pretty seriously.
The trick is not to lose to them in either case. :wink:
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Figured I would ask on this thread since it about bikes...initially.....Anyone know of Terry Lewis? he set a few records in Vintage 750 on a BSA in 99 and 2000. Just curious about his bike and story.
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Hans, Terry is a member of the San Diego Roadster club. His BSA is a quick one alright. If you contact the SDRC I'm sure they could put him in touch with you. I hear this year he is bringing out a BSA triple. I have a very short video of the BSA, taken a few years ago. I can put it on DVD but I'm not sure if it will play in Europe. If you want to take a chance I can make a copy and send it to you.
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Check your PMs in a bit for the contact information.
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thanks for the info guys!
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Yours is a very well done case of examining the rules and applying the appropriate logic.
The tragedy is the rules lately often defy logic and history. They are getting worse all the time.
They are not only the victims of individual agendas but without the prior consultation with the affected party's.
You are in the right place to bring this to the attention of the people that care and the people that are responsible for the mistakes.
Putting a light on it will go much farther than anything you can do.
More people need to chime in with a logical approach.
If you are wrong, that is OK too and someone will correct you. But if you suffer in silence with your head down you have accepted defeat. Individual logic applied to individual mistakes will get individual treatment the field suffers from now. :roll:
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It appears the M/C committee has found a time machine. We're going back to the old AMA rules. Don't know what else to say except it appears you are caught by the short and curlies.
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It appears the M/C committee has found a time machine. We're going back to the old AMA rules. Don't know what else to say except it appears you are caught by the short and curlies.
Actually it is Curly, Moe, and Larry. :wink:
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It appears the M/C committee has found a time machine. We're going back to the old AMA rules. Don't know what else to say except it appears you are caught by the short and curlies.
Actually it is Curly, Moe, and Larry. :wink:
And Shemp...can't forget Shemp!!
J
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Tonight the part of Shemp will be played by John Noonan. :wink:
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Tonight the part of Shemp will be played by John Noonan. :wink:
...well he'd hardly make a convincing curly :lol:
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A Sheered Sheep is known as a Shemp.
Who better for the job than John.
At least with him you can see where his head is.
The MC rulers are less obvious if you apply even just basic common sense.
The rest of them already snatched him bald, now they want to pick his bones. :wink:
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Break the side valves off to have their own records. And print the all the biker rule books separately. The costs would be minimal with even more blank pages than now.
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Just fly the flag.
The rules are no more permanent than the direction of the wind.
The value of the individual record is no more than the paper it is printed on and whatever you can convince anybody of.
It has deteriorate to a gang mentality with 1 guy holding the gun and the followers under the influence. :wink:
Was that too harsh ?
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Rules change. They have to. What needs to be done instead of a meeting at Bonneville or whatever way its done. The M/C committee needs to poll the racers on rule changes. How would it be done? I'm not sure. But changes should not happen over a winter. Particularly when rule books don't come out until a few weeks before the first event. I know the changes were put out on the SCTA website some time ago. But changes should be at least a year in advance. It is interesting to note that Modified is now Modified Production. But there is no mention of that class in the 2006 rule book. Is this an oversight? Will we get another 1000 classes for Modified Production? Am I being sarcastic? No, I'm asking a question. The rule changes are profound and what was once a modified has to now compete in Special Construction. And run against those records. A Production bike with a few mods now can run against Modified records. Will records be broken? Perhaps.
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Their were actually very few changes and all the participants had a chance to not only ask for a clarification but suggest changes that were voted on with a show of hands before going to the board for final approval.
When that participation was taken away, it was down hill from there and the program suffers for it. :wink:
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The MC committee as Panic suggests no longer exists.
The transition from AMA to SCTA was actually pretty smooth.
The field was trimmed and modernized to better fit the sport and the input from the real participants.
The effort was to try and make them just another class of LSR entry with the same treatment as the cars.
The bikes have always had to deal with the "RED HEADED STEP CHILD" reputation a bit.
The better the program was run could serve as a lesson for everyone also.
Sadly the program has deteriorated to what you see today and generates more laughs
than respect for real accomplishments.
A very accomplished member of the field and principal in the industry told me he thought naming
him to the so called "COMMITTEE" was no more than an effort to shut him up.
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
I have an idea for a contest for the best caustic or harsh remark related to the rules or rules makers of the day.
A week will take too long and I think there is enough brain power around to make it really interesting.
The prize would be the satisfaction that you did your part towards the continuity of the sport and not the certain death. :wink:
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I wanna get a whole fleet of them Trumpets and rent them out by the day.
They will run in a different class every year by virtue of just the rulebook changes and with a different rider every day. The business is almost endless..
They only have to go half fast to get one of them "World Records" papers.
We will rent to the rider with the appropriate prior reservations.
The naming rights "YOUR NAME HERE" will be sold separately and all by mail if you are unable to actually travel.
Combined with the rules, it would seem to be the best money can buy.
The contest is really jumping.
I will be interested to see where they land. :wink:
OBTW: A number of people actually know quite a bit amoung the "OLDER MODELS", It is the "NEWER MODELS" that cause all the trouble. The features of the bikes are well established and predictable.
"Was it a design that failed or did it fail by design ?"
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We're all whining about the changes on this thread when we shoud be looking to that guy in Texas, I think. He took a boat anchor aka a BSA M20 and got it to run 108 at Bonneville. So far I have'nt seen any posts from him.
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I have an idea for a contest for the best caustic or harsh remark related to the rules or rules makers of the day.
A week will take too long and I think there is enough brain power around to make it really interesting.
The prize would be the satisfaction that you did your part towards the continuity of the sport and not the certain death.
*****************************************
I too have an idea for a contest.
Let's have Jack D propose his ideas for a revised M/C rules package.
The prize would be a very happy and respected portion of the LSR community.
DW
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It would feature a lot less space and a lot more race.
Bikes would be easy to identify and the rules too.
Entries, performance, safety, and people would be real.
Redreaming something up every time somebody has a personnel objective should be limited to the services provided with the World's Oldest Profession.
There are going to be bikes and rules that are specific to the sport, but don't make them specific to your friends that are actually the enemy of the rest.
When you make exceptions to that they better be for a good enough reason to apply to all the entries or perhaps it is not such a good idea.
Going fast starts and ends with preparation to the rules and not change the rules to match the lack of preparation you have.
The car program has it's problems for sure but they actually do pretty good. Just around here for example you don't see the dreaded words that seem to follow the bike program. I guess you gotta ask yourself why is that and how far back do we have to go to fix it ? Certainly it has not always been that screwed up has it ? With more people involved from the start, the combined brain power will generate fewer mistakes and favoritism that it suffers from today.
"Mistakes can be forgiven, lies are forever."
Arnch glad Ya asked ?
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As I understand it, the purpose of more than 1 class (total) is to provide a venue for machines to compete without domination by a larger, etc. engine.
The obvious methods (separate classes) are IMHO already long since out of control (1000 more classes won't fix anything), in fact many of the existing classes separate very similar vehicles which could be more evenly matched with handicapping (as used in horseracing - our parent sport), as is now done in vintage motorcycle.....................This should already have been done in the vintage motorcycle class, since no other sanctioning body compresses the entire history of the pre-1956 motorcycle (40 years in practical terms) into only 2 classes. For example: VG500 should be dominated by Norton OHC Manx and similar Grand Prix Isle of Man winning bikes, but is also the only choice for pedestrian types such as the BSA OHV M33 (with 1/2 the power). In addition to basic design differences, there are also vast differences in development. As is, the H-D 45" solo 1929-39 (25hp) runs heads-up against the WLD, WLDR, WR factory racing versions (32 to 45hp), and even against the K, KK unit motors (32hp), and KR unit racers (56hp?). In fact, the 1955 KR (only) has almost all of the serious parts made for this engine (1/4-speed oil pump, big rod set), and should be specifically removed from vintage or given a different displacement advantage.
Panic I'm trying to follow what you are saying, but having some difficulty. Help me out.
First it seems you are saying less classes with handicaps and then further down you are saying some motors have a definite disadvantage over others due to inferior designs at the factory level.
This same thing happens with the cars. Why are so many people running small/big block chevys, hemis, some ford motors and not other makes? Simple, some of these designs were better from the factory and more speed parts were thus made for them. To try and rearrange the rules so that some inferior motor designs were allowed to be competitive would be a step backwards in my opinion. Those motors can still be run if a person wants to design his own parts to make them competitive or just likes to run them because he likes to be different.
Maybe I'm not following what you are saying :? .
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Jack, Dan has suggested you actually come up with a set of alternative rules that are "specific" and submit them maybe here for review and to SCTA. Seems reasonable to me :wink: . I'm sure doing something like that might actually result in getting the ball rolling amongst you bike guys in a constructive way :D .
c ya, Sum
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All of the other series you mention are racing events that can have a new winner every week and a new series when the demand exists. Speed records are quite different and should have a clear definition of the entry. The best result of that combination built to the rules should last until somebody goes faster with the same rules.
I am all for preservation of the heritage represented by the long history but the way it is handled now with bikes is a laffer. :wink:
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Speed records are quite different and should have a clear definition of the entry. The best result of that combination built to the rules should last until somebody goes faster with the same rules.
But, of course, the new vintage rules have just ruined that for sidevalves already, haven't they?
Why not change, at the very least, the sidevalve rules before there are new records set, new requests made for dispensation, etc.?
The VINTAGE ENGINE rules actually go back quite a few years and perhaps a little more thought going into it by the same persons might have been well advised.
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Consistent ,and educated enforcement is all important.
Does everybody remember the picture around here of the bike on the line to run at Bonneville ? It was noted the bare backed rider with the jacket and pants also had his foot right at the end of the exhaust. How did that happen ?
The person that Scott mentions was not really any faster than the rules would allow for anybody but the difference was he did all is preparation at home and didn't believe anybody owed him any more than equal treatment.
That same person did a lot of work on behalf of the VINTAGE category bikes when they were first proposed that took a lot of time. Most of that fell on deaf ears and the resultant mistakes were just beginning.
The contest is really jumping. :wink:
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I fully realize that nitrous can make anything fast. And he did make it fly. An M20 was designed as a military bike for running communications during the war. It was'nt designed to go fast. A lot of bikes are designed as commutors and have no pretense to speed. To cater for these machines is wrong. If a '55 Harley has all the right bits for speed then people are goig to use that model. To handicap it so that a '32 Harley is competitive with it is wrong. To take that line of thinking to its logical conclusion then we would wind up woth a step thru Honda 50 being on the same playing field with John Noonan's machine. We need different classes as not everyone wants to go 200+. But it is also time to realize that some motors were not designed for speed and don't necessarily fall into a class where they can be competitive. It might also be worth noting that in 13 years time CB750 Hondas will be vintage and all the "advantages" that flatheads enjoy now won't be worth a damn.
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I too have an idea for a contest.
Let's have Jack D propose his ideas for a revised M/C rules package.
The prize would be a very happy and respected portion of the LSR community.
DW
Yeah, but thats not as easy as shooting flaming arrows and using the rolling eyes smiley! ... :roll:
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Jack D has a fantastic idea for a handicap system. If we can get him to put it in writing all our problems wil be solved. I have'nt the details to hand but if you are 95 years old and have a 1906 Harley you can become the worlds fastest.
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I am not advocating a one make one model class by any means. What I am trying to say is that if the KR is the bike to beat in that class then the racers will use that model. There always will be the one person who will beat his head against a wall and make something else competitive. That someone wants to race an obviously uncompetitive bike should not mean that everyone else has to slow down. Or be handicapped in order to make a slower bike competitive. If you look at the SCTA rules compared to the FIM rules we are catered for much better. If you look at the car guys you will find an awful lot of Chevys lurking under those Ford hoods. Why? Beats me. I always thought a V8 was a V8 etc. Obviously those that run Chevys know something. I do think that flatheads having the 1/3 displacement "advantage" is fair. If records were set with a bigger "advantage" well, it will take a bit of tuning to overcome that. But racers being what they are will figure a way to do it.
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I too have an idea for a contest.
Let's have Jack D propose his ideas for a revised M/C rules package.
The prize would be a very happy and respected portion of the LSR community.
DW
Yeah, but thats not as easy as shooting flaming arrows and using the rolling eyes smiley! ... :roll:
The 'FLAMING ARROWS" are not fired at random but with a purpose.
I understand they work both ways and I don't see any return fire.
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I too have an idea for a contest.
Let's have Jack D propose his ideas for a revised M/C rules package.
The prize would be a very happy and respected portion of the LSR community.
DW
Yeah, but thats not as easy as shooting flaming arrows and using the rolling eyes smiley! ... :roll:
The 'FLAMING ARROWS" are not fired at random but with a purpose.
I understand they work both ways and I don't see any return fire.
Well the purpose still eludes me. Or maybe, I'm just looking for the usefull purpose.
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.... It is interesting to note that Modified is now Modified Production. But there is no mention of that class in the 2006 rule book. Is this an oversight? Will we get another 1000 classes for Modified Production? Am I being sarcastic? No, I'm asking a question...
Pg 101, 2006 SCTA Rulebook.
7.F MODIFIED PRODUCTION
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If you are going to make yourself a target, better lighting can really help those
that are intent on recognizing your position.
In this case the target really hates the light and seem to attract a lot of arrows.
That inicates something is wrong.
Being on target is not easy and you have to be prepared for some return fire.
Unless you stand your ground, it is not so much a battle as it is a chase. :wink:
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.... It is interesting to note that Modified is now Modified Production. But there is no mention of that class in the 2006 rule book. Is this an oversight? Will we get another 1000 classes for Modified Production? Am I being sarcastic? No, I'm asking a question...
Pg 101, 2006 SCTA Rulebook.
7.F MODIFIED PRODUCTION
The intended target of the rule change is a production bike by every standard in the world including the numbers required by SCTA. The change not only misses the mark but has the unintended effect of forgetting the thousands of HD clone road bikes that are in production now. As such the fall down laugh work arounds to the ill considered rule are for the most part published here. All of this without benefit of the wisdom that might be available from the participants if they were asked. :wink:
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If you are going to make yourself a target, better lighting can really help those
that are intent on recognizing your position.
In this case the target really hates the light and seem to attract a lot of arrows.
That inicates something is wrong.
Being on target is not easy and you have to be prepared for some return fire.
Unless you stand your ground, it is not so much a battle as it is a chase. :wink:
Jack, It appears that your definition of "the light" is this website. If they do not come here, they must be hiding. I am not a bike guy but I do attend the board meetings and have heard all the explanations & reasoning behind the rule changes, so I can't agree that the "target really hates the light".
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.... It is interesting to note that Modified is now Modified Production. But there is no mention of that class in the 2006 rule book. Is this an oversight? Will we get another 1000 classes for Modified Production? Am I being sarcastic? No, I'm asking a question...
Pg 101, 2006 SCTA Rulebook.
7.F MODIFIED PRODUCTION
The intended target of the rule change is a production bike by every standard in the world including the numbers required by SCTA. The change not only misses the mark but has the unintended effect of forgetting the thousands of HD clone road bikes that are in production now. As such the fall down laugh work arounds to the ill considered rule are for the most part published here. All of this without benefit of the wisdom that might be available from the participants if they were asked. :wink:
I was told that you were asked to help form the new rules but you declined to participate. Is that true?
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The secret society is very distasteful to me.
The declined invitation did not come from them but rather a car guy that understands the nature of the organization.
The last time the principal was represented is was to perpetuate a bald faced lie that was easily disproved. He hasn't been back in public since and resides behind the scenes that in large part contribute to the failures.
This is the most prominent public forum and deserves the attention from all sides including top to bottom.
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The secret society is very distastful to me.
And the declined invatation did not come from them but rather a car guy that understands the nature of the organization.
Any society that you refuse to take part in will always remain a secret from you...
You can't always blame "them" for your lack of involvment and then your resultant dissatisfacation with the outcome.
Anyway, that's all I'm going to say on the subject. I have already entered too much into this conversation.
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Panic wrote
Let me clarify my position on handicap.
I think that the choice of engine should not be so important that a tired stock model of the right choice always defeats anything a zealous innovator can do to the next best engine --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------When I first went to Bonneville to run in XX/GAlt there were four cars in the class. A 12 port 270 GMC, my turbocharged stock head 270, a blown flathead and an Ardun. It was a fun deal. Then the flathead Ford guys started complaining that GMCs had an advantage. 12 port guys said blown motors had an advantage. Blower guys said turbos had an advantage. So now those four cars have four classes and don't have to run each other. The record I set in 1980 still stands because no one cares anymore. The fun went out of the class. 25 years with no entry's would seem to indicate the class is no longer needed.
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There may have entries but no the exsisting records were not beat:). I have held a record for 21 years and it's been run on almost every year. I believe Phil Freudiger had one for almost 40 years before it was broken. It took someone in his own family to do it.
Records invite competitors. Let them stay.......
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Jim; In the roadster class there will always be entry's, I hope. In the blown GMC powered Vega class I have not seen any. Doug Robinson could kill my record any time he felt like. He can't be bothered It was fun when an Ardun/Capri was running against a GMC/Vega. Not much going on since then. But I guess it isn't hurting anything to keep it in the book.
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The secret society is very distastful to me.
And the declined invatation did not come from them but rather a car guy that understands the nature of the organization.
Any society that you refuse to take part in will always remain a secret from you...
You can't always blame "them" for your lack of involvment and then your resultant dissatisfacation with the outcome.
Anyway, that's all I'm going to say on the subject. I have already entered too much into this conversation.
Well "GRASSHOPPER" my participation from the beginning has featured more exposure and results than perhaps you are accustomed to.
Your imagination that included your perception of "BLACK HELICOPTERS" is more a product of your exposure to "PAPER SUBMARINES".
'
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I was planning to reply to Panic but you guys took off on me. Work is the curse of the unsponsored racer. To digress. Panic used a '49 350 Triumph as an example. To turn it into a racer would require a lot of effort as it was never raced and no race program was ever developed for it. My point exactly. The 350 Triumph was designed as a commuter bike with no race pretenses by the Triumph company. If the owner want to race it then he has a lot of work ahead of him. And good luck to him. Although looking at the 350 vintage records they are beatable. A/VG 88.802 mph, M/VG 89.834 mph, M/VF 95.879 mph. There are other vintage records e.g. partial streamlining etc. But I think they will suffice. But to handicap everyone else because someone chose a commuter bike to race is wrong. LSR means land speed racing, not lotsa slow records. And what I meant to say regarding no mention of modified production in the rule book was that the records are still listed as modified. Will they be changed to modified production or have we now got another pile of classes?
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"pile of classes"
You said a funny but somebody else actually made it.
If somebody doesn't get it from that observation, I guess they just don't get it.
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But to handicap everyone else because someone chose a commuter bike to race is wrong........... Should these same bikes always win, forever? Not what I call racing.
I just don't see how you could do what you are saying (handicaping based on original design). Seems to be a real nightmare for someone to have to figure what displacement would be fair for competition between different makes and different models of the same make that are initially the same displacement.
Everyone would be trying to claim that their bike "from the factory" was such a dud that they need to be allowed extra displacement over those they are racing against.
Like I said before, maybe I don't get it. In all the other LSR classes you either pick the best motor as a starting point or plan on trying real hard and maybe spending a lot more on a motor that had less potential to begin with. No one says you have to take the same path as others before and there can be a lot of enjoyment from what you achieve even if it doesn't result in a record.
c ya, Sum
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I'm glad I'm not racing horses. The breed does'nt seem to have improved much. They still have four legs and only make one horsepower. I don't know about the factory one of one bikes at El Mirage or Bonneville. My Norton started out as a 350 Model 50. One of many that rolled off the line in Bracebridge St. in 1960. The engine is an early 70s Weslake speedway engine. Built by myself. That statement by itself should be enough to scare people. The trans is a mish mash of Norton bits. The mainshaft is 1935 and the gears are varying dates. Nothing factory about anything on the bike. All there is on my Norton is a lot of work and experimentation. Some things worked some things did'nt. Do I need help with a handicap? No. If I don't run fast enough I'll take it home and try something else to see if I can get the extra bit I need. If someone starts out with a 350 Triumph, fine. A good bike that with a lot of work could be a record holder. When you think of you versus the factory. Remember amateurs built the Ark. Professionals built the Titanic.
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"But to handicap everyone else because someone chose a commuter bike to race is wrong........... Should these same bikes always win, forever? Not what I call racing. "
I hear you Sum, I picked one of these "Commuter scooters" to compete @ Lake Gairdner with, and believe me, its not the kind of bike anyone with half a brain would pick to try ang go fast on, but I did, and it won't be long untill someone whoops my ass BIG TIME by riding something in the 175cc class that actually develops horsepower when it was originally manufactured, but when that happens, unless it happens on the same kind of commuter scooter I rode,,I'll still feel I have some kind of record belongs to me, and I sure as eggs will beat it,,one day :wink:
Happyness is a naked 100 MPH Postie Bike :shock:
Tiny
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Personnel best is something that not only brings the most satisfaction but is something they can never take away.
Sometimes that is more than the rest but that only lasts until somebody else is.
To make rules to eliminate the the rest is the mark of a sore loser upfront.
With 122 contributions, 3018 views, over 9 pages of stuff, does that tell you something might be wrong ?
It might indicate the deaf are now also blind.
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Personnel best is the best you can do. If someone goes faster so be it. You did your best and thats what counts. My philosophy has been that a good day is when you get to the start line. A great day is when you get to the finish line. If you set a record, you know God smiled on you that day. If you blow the motor you know God was'nt paying attention and you can send Him the bill.
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Let's not forget they DO handicap horses with jockey weight.
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So what do they use to keep the jockeys on the horses? A jockey strap?
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I know we don't need a gazillion more classes, but what about just a class for non-over head valve motors, be it flathead, side valve...of course then the 2 stroke guys will want in.....and rotary Nortons....but i agree that there is just too much subjectivity in having a certain motor handicapped by percentage, it only gets him competitive with a certain range of motors/hp. More than likely you would think it would be to be competitive with the top runners, so then the guys with just SLIGHTLY inferior motors are getting beat by the guy with a VERY inferior motor. Now why am I using a BSA to run against 8 valve Triumphs and HDs....who knows...hopefully because it will be faster.