Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: desotoman on March 21, 2006, 03:49:23 PM
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I have a good question for all of the motorcycle people on this board. Are there any Vintage 50cc motorcycle motors available, and if so what make? Remember they have to be made prior to 1956.
Or what 50cc motorcycle motors were available in 1955?
Thanks for any help,
Tom Gerardi
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Tom
I believe NSU made them in the early 50s.
Glen
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boy lots of em! I have a Motobi, and a Ducati 50! there is also Etom, Benelli, Bianchi, Gilera 50 is very rare but 98 is popular. Lots of small bore Italian iron. Just missed a Parilla 98 on ebay(I bid 13 and it sold for 1800). 98, 100, 125, 150, 175cc are real popular 50 and 250 are out there but rare. I search and buy from the Italian ebay site. I won a Benelli 50 in January then the seller backed out after I did all the shipping work (put him on the people who screwed Kent list)
kent
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Hi Kent, I don't mean to hijack this thread, but so you have any "off the shelf" streamliner motorcycle bodies available? Didn't see any on your website. Can you email some specs?
Thanks!
Dave
docauto@hotmail.com
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Glen and Kent, thanks for the replies.
Kent, with your experience, what do you feel would be the best motor to run in the vintage 50cc motor class. What would the typical price be for a running motor? Are most of the motors 2 stroke? Thanks again for any help.
Tom Gerardi
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the Benelli or any 2 stroke would be my choice for anything other than production. the Motobi and Ducati are low hp 4 strokes. the bikes I have will be production vintage as soon as i get the rest of the correct parts and the documintation to prove it. Dave I have some pix I will forward to ya
Kr
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Is a moped motor considered a motorcycle motor? Would you have to make the pedals inoperative, to run as a motorcycle?
Thanks,
Tom Gerardi
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if it had 2 wheels from the factory then it is a motorcycle engine, except when talking about a boss hoss. actually they have made more than 500 units so it would be lagal for production but the board in there infinate wisdom have saved us (me) from our (my) stupidity and wont let us run them. Pedals? why yes, no problem.
KR
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Not yet vintage, but it sure would make a good streamliner engine.
Suzuki RP 68 1968
Engine type: Water-cooled 50 cc triple cylinder 2-stroke. 19 hp/ 20,000 rpm (380 bhp per liter), 170 km/h.
Transmission: 14 speeds
(http://www.suzukicycles.org/photos/race_sixties/1967_RK67_800.jpg)
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Wow! I have'nt seen a photo of that Suzi in years. I believe it was made in 1966. Only one and never raced as the FIM changed the rules for 50s to single cyinder, 6 speed. The best engine for the 50 class would be a watercooled Van Veen Kriedler. Reputedly able to put out 25 hp @ 16000. Back in the early 80s I got a hold of an aircooled, 6 speed Van Veen Kriedler that came with a dyno report of 22 hp @ 16500. And regretfully I don't still have it. I sold it to a guy in England. But around 97' I saw a photo of some Dutch guys that built a Van Veen GP racer and used a Burt Munro type body and ran 137 at, I think, Zandvoort. Could be wrong on the location but I do remember it being awful fast.
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Kent thanks for the help.
Dean neat looking bike.
Nortonist where would you find a watercooled Van Veen Kriedler, and how much money would it set you back.
Thanks to everyone for their help.
Tom Gerardi
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from the Apriliaforum website:
There is actually a kriedler which can get upto 120mph+ and its only a 50cc, only problem is its a track bike and it could never be used for on road. The width of it is about 35-40cm at the most. Has a dry clutch and redlines at 18,500 rpm. Ive been on it and seen it race against all the other 50cc's and it pissed all over their bonfire. Its so highly tuned it can keep up with a 125cc bike easily. I duno about the bhp of it though. I have a pic with me on the bike but havent got a scanner atm. Gonna have a look on Google now. Btw, theres only 3 in the world and all of them are in england. Anyone got ?15000 to buy one of the guy coz hes selling it.
Tom, looks like about $30k..
Dave
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http://www.lump-proof.com/CLASSIC/RACER/lawn/
wild stuff!
Dave
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Dave,
I clicked on your web site and it reminded me that you have the RR powered LSR car from Aussie land. How is your project going?? I know you are looking for tires but any chance of seeing it within the year or two??
Where did you get the Ma Duce?
Rex
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Hi Rex. I have the turbines ready to install (going to go with turbines or diesels first to check out the handling), but I'm stalled due to lack of suitable tires. I only have 1 set of new MTs for the car, and those will only last a few runs at full power. No sense putting any time into the car for now....
The M2 is from TNW (tnwcorp.com) purchased before the People's Republik of Kalifornia outlawed them. It's a blast (literally!)
I'll probably do some small displacement racer in the near future....
Dave
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Dave, thanks for the link to the website. Neat bike, but I would rather spend $30,000 on a different type of LSR vehicle.
Tom Gerardi
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agreed! That's alot of $$ for 100mph....
whatcha going to make?
D
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whatcha going to make?
Dave, that is a good question. I love both cars and bikes. I currently run a roadster at El Mirage, but was looking to find a bike to have some fun with, and run also. I thought I would ask about 50cc bikes first, but now I think if I am going to run a bike I should put together my Ariel square four, and run it. It resides in a Norton slimline frame, with a Ceriani four shoe leading brake on the front and two shoe in the rear. It has old style road race tank and seat. The guy I bought it off of 20 years ago told me it ran 124 or 128 in the quarter. He made the big mistake of taking the motor over 6000rpm and stretched the rods. I got it as a basket case, but with plenty of parts to put it back together. Maybe it is time to start on it.
Regards,
Tom Gerardi
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Hi Tom, that sounds like fun. I was putting my old (1949) Velocette MAC together recently (after sitting in pieces for 25+ years), it's a hoot! Those square 4s were always interesting to ride (and listen to). I'd love to find a Megola, but I'm sure they're all long bought up by now.
I'm also thinking small displacement 'liner, bike or car. I need something to do in all my spare time (yeah, right!).
Dave
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Hey DeSotoman. Sorry I have'nt been on this thread for a couple of days. There are lots of GP Kriedlers in England, Holland, Germany and other parts of Europe. Prices will obviously vary but I would think a really good one could be had for $4-7000. Obviously if someone famous rode it it would cost a lot more. The one I had I brought to the Isle of Man [1980] for a race at the Jurby road course [not the TT] and in a starting grid of 26, 21 of them were Kriedlers. Robert Dunlop's Kriedler was clocked at 114 and mine clocked 112. With a bunch in the 110-112 range. There are a few very special factory Kriedler and Bultaces around but the money required to buy them would'nt justify the results. I think it was the last Las Vegas bike auction. I saw an ad for it and they listed two Kriedler racers. So there may be a couple floating around here. The Ariel/slimline sounds interesting. I have a friend in Ireland who has one in a wideline but it is strictly a tourer. I have heard stories about square fours having a tendency to be fragile when leaned on. Good luck with it and hopefully we'll see it at El Mirage this year.
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Hey Guys, very interesting thread, and I loved the links. I'm building a 55 BSA to run at Maxton, and Bonneville this summer. In January, I pulled it out of boxes where the pieces had been stored for 12 years and now spend time every night and weekend trying to get it together. I'm hoping to have it at Maxton in May. My bike was a cafe racer/custom bike and when I got the notion to race it I decided to start in the Production class. I had to find and purchase a load of parts to fit within the guidelines. I can tell you Repro parts are not OEM ! ! Its far enough along that I can sit on it and twist the throttle and almost feel the vibrations. I hope to see you and your bikes out on the salt.
David
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Cool thread, any hope for my 66 305 scrambler. It seems to rev forever
and sounds really cool. Anybody ever race one of these?
Everybody that see`s the bike says they used to have one back in the
day. And I am sure JackD probebly raced one, I mean he seems to
have run just about everything else. I would think that they would have
been the killer scooter back in the 60`s. Just wondering. :D
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I never raced one of those or a Sprint Car. The first bike racer didn't happen until 68 with a Honda CL350 Scrambler. My brother had a CB. you can see some of the collection at the San Diego Automotive Museum starting March 31 for a month. :wink:
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Megola,
Dave, wasn't that the motorcycle that had the motor in the front wheel, and looked like a scooter?
And I thought I was the only crazy person to have a basket case motorcycle for so long. LOL Glad there are others.
Nortonist, thanks for the information. The price you quoted sounds reasonable. I will keep my ears open.
Promachine, I don't ever remember riding a 305 Honda, but when I was a kid I thought the 305 Honda scrambler was pretty cool. I did put a lot of miles on a friends 160 Dream. I owned a 500 Triumph, that I used to race against my friends who had Greeves, and Triumphs. Later on we all went to Maico's.
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Megolas were made in Germany from 1921 to 1924. They were 640cc, 5 cylinder radial engine fitted into the front wheel. 14 hp. The racing model had a top speed of around 92 mph. And better you than me on a front wheel drive bike. The designer was Fritz Cockerell.
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Tom actually you have my dream bike.... an aerial square four in a norton featherbed frame...
Maybe you need to stick to the 50's and sell me the Aerial?
K ( 334 763 6566 )
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Hi Keith,
Sorry but I promised along time ago that I would sell it back to the original person who built it, if I ever decided to sell it. I will give you some background. The guy who built the bike grew up in a neighborhood where two guys raced Ariel's. Well he eventually got to ride both bikes, now these were the days when you rode the same bike at all events. Drags, scrambles, TT's, etc. He said the both bikes were so evenly matched that at the drags both bikes ran 118 mph speeds.
When he got to be 30 he decided he wanted to build the ultimate Ariel, so he began collecting parts for his ultimate bike. Motor wise he started with a 1940 case, fitted the cylinders with V8-60 ford sleeves, Had the head cut in two so it could be ported, then furnace braised back together, Harmon's and Collin's cams, one off intake manifold, Porche ignition, etc. When he finished the bike and rode it, he said this bike was just awesome. Not only power wise but it handled like it was on a rail. Said he beat many Ducati's on the street.
Well he had a friend who keep bugging him to sell the bike to Him. After a couple of years he decided to sell it to his friend. He told his friend never ever take the motor over 6000 rpm, because the stock rods would not survive. Well needless to say the friend did not heed his advice and the motor let go.
I heard of it by word of mouth and bought it off his friend. Being the small world it is we live in, I am in a body shop one day talking to the owner, and I see some motorcycle pictures on his wall. We start talking about bikes and he tells me his son races and shows me the race bikes. We start talking about the old days of racing and he starts telling me this story about this Ariel he built and lost track of. When I told him I had an Ariel and it sounded like his, you should have seen the look on his face. Well he then proceeded to describe the bike to a tee, and yes it was the one he built many years ago. Right then he made me promise that if I ever decided to sell it, I would give him first shot at buying it back, and I agreed. I asked him how fast he thought the bike would go, and he told me it was an honest 140mph bike the way he had it set up.
Regards,
Tom Gerardi
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I've got a poster from the "Art of the Motorcycle" show that toured the country a few years ago. the Megola front wheel & engine are the artwork on the poster. Anybody want to see? I can take a photo and post it here.
A couple of weeks ago, on another forum, we had quite a discussion about how the engine ran -- five cylinder, counter-rotating at some multiple of wheel speed, slip join to get fuel to the five carbs, and so on. If somebody has better information -- I've got another group of folks that would be interested in hearing the details.
One heck of a lot of inertia in the front wheel -- steering would be a bitch, I betcha.
Oh, yeah -- the poster shows the front leaf spring suspension. Another interesting concept that seems to have been discarded.
Lemme know if you wanna see that photo.
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Back to Megolas. 5 cyl. 52 mm bore X 60 mm stroke. Approx. 14 hp. Pressed steel and riveted "beam" frame. The gas was carried in a pressurized tank in the frame and pumped up to a header tank on the forks. Single carb on the right side and a magneto on the other side. The engine counter rotated at a 6:1 reduction and there was no clutch or trans. Also there was no front brake only a double rear brake. Different size wheels were available so the gearing could be altered. The spoke design of the front wheel allowed you to rmove the cylinders without having to take the wheel apart. The name came from the three men who set up the business, MEixner, COckerell, and LAndgraf. It is interesting to note that Cockerell spelled his name with a G for that enterprise but went back to Cockerell for the next business he set up. Cockerell Lightweight Motorcycles. The square four in a featherbed is a much more interesting motorcycle. And no doubt handles better. One question. Did the frame i.e. the bottom rails have to be stretched to get the motor in? And Nearly all conversions I've seen have required the bottom rails to be stretched a couple of inches. And yes I'd love to see the Megola poster. And do you have any photos of the Ariel you can post. This is my Norton at El Mirage. Bring the bikes up!!
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Nortonist, I don't know if the frame has been stretched. When talking to the original builder he never mentioned that. I don't think I have a picture of the bike, if I find one I will post it. I cannot see the picture of your bike because my pop up blockers must be blocking everything, but if it is the silver Norton I saw at El Mirage last year it is a beauty.
Everyone who replied to this thread, Thank You.
Regards,
Tom Gerardi
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Opps I forgot, Seldom Seen Slim please post that picture of the Megola. Then when I figure out how to fix my computor, so I can see the pictures it will be here. Thanks, Tom
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Well, let's see if this will open:
http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/mriders2/photos/view/5651?b=43
I grabbed it from the M-Riders photo site at Yahoo -- I'll get the photo and do it manually if this doesn't work.[/url]
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Picture didnt work for me. Where did you get the name Seldom Seen Slim, I love that?
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Here's a few Megola pictures, just hilarious! I recall reading somewhere that for starting you put it on the front stand, kick at the front wheel to spin it up/start it, hop on and push off the stand! No clutch!!
http://www.kunis.nl/bikes/megola1.jpg
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.magpie.com/nycmoto/guggenheim/images/megola.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.magpie.com/nycmoto/guggenheim/pages/megola.html&h=480&w=640&sz=56&tbnid=yG2aTR4gsAz_DM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=135&hl=en&start=4&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmegola%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
http://www.ianus.tu-darmstadt.de/kankeleit/Megola1947S.jpg
Dave
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MTKAWBOY:
Seldom Seen Slim was the moniker used by Charles Ferge, the last well-known hermit (if you'll pardon the oxymoron) in the Panamint Valley (the valley just west of Death Valley). He would, so goes the story, go out into the mountains behind Ballarat for a few months, prospecting and doing whatever else those folks did. He was a skinny old fart, too. Add those two items together, and you get this: Folks would show up in town and ask about "Slim", and they'd be told "He's seldom seen in town". There you have it.
Nancy and I have been through there -- the ghost town of Ballarat -- a couple of times, and when we needed a name for the race team -- she said "How about Seldom Seen Slim Land Speed Racing" out loud --- and why the heck not?, we decided. It rolls trippingly from the tongue, and it's unique. If you visit our website (www.infodestruction.com) and click around the SSS LSR part of it -- you'll find a few more photos - his grave, for instance, and other Ballarat photos.
We've since discovered more than a few LSR-types that either knew him or knew of him. You can find photos of him (besides the one I used on my avatar) by going to www.seldomseenslim.com -- but be prepared to see someone that appears to have had the world's best interestes in mind when he decided to exclude himself from the everyday hustle and bustle.
Thanks for asking.
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Charlie's nickname was inspired by Jon's existence in Michigan.
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That Megola looks like a Honda Motorwheel with the engine in the front instead of the back. Never saw one before, sure would be different. Better 50cc traction with front wheel drive, like that would be a problem.
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Well, If we need a motor picked up, I'm living in Norway now and am going to the UK next week to pick up a Dresda Honda 500 four!!! There is some different stuff over here...talking a truck to p/u bike...26 hour ferry ride from Bergen to Newcastle, then 5 hour drive...