Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: John Clutch on January 13, 2021, 05:38:49 AM
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Hello from NYC!!! This is my first post. Little about me.
Uneducated gearhead. The most education ive received in aerodynamics was when I was 8 years old. My father took me to see Mad Max 2 in the theatre. I learned what a supercharger was and instantly fell in love with the internal combustion engine. Also, Lord Humgunous scared the crap out of me. Also around the same time, I was attempted to pour my cup of flat soda out the window from a moving car, resulting in soda all over the inside and outside of the car. I thought it was cool. My father, not so much.
Fast forward forty years, Im a metal fabricator by trade and a half ass designer/engineer/compliance manager. Accomplished R/C drag racer with 3 national championships and a record in the Nitro Pro Stock class. The class changed so much that technically my record still stands after 14 years. Ive also contributed a lot of RC drag innovations that is the benchmark for chassis and motor design today. I havent accomplished much else in life so thats all I got. Now onto the bread n butter of this post. I have some questions. If you cant contributed information on the subject, sarcasm is always appreciated lol8
All my questions is based on safety rather than performance. Im planning on air flow testing a model and dont want to waste anymore time on designing something if I dont have to.
1. Hows that wheelbase look to you? I feel its the longest I can make it without the aft panels coming in too fast to the center of the car.
2a. Where do I get info on the parachute systems on these cars? From what I see, they are ballastic chutes? What powers them and what size would I need for 230mph @ 1600lbs?
2b. I have the chute centerline towards the top of the wheel in the drawing. Should it be closer to the axle centerline?
3. Im thinking hardtail with 1.5" of front suspension travel. ( 1" compression, 0.5" rebound) Is that safe?
4. With only a inch or two of tire sticking out of the body, in a closed wheelwell, do I need to run wheel covers or could I get away with typical drag style wheels?
5. At Bonneville, is finding peanut butter cups hard to find or should I bring a stash?
6. I think ultimately I would use a premade canopy and base the design on that. Not that Im lazy and cant make a vacuum mold for it. Ok, I lied, Im a bit lazy but too broke to have someone else do it lol. Where do I find canopies?
Thanks in advance.
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For whatever reason, I couldnt preview the post before posting it, so if any typos, blame the internet thanks.
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Call Stroud for parachute info. Peanut butter cups are rare at Bonneville- bring plenty.
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OK, where is everything?
Your car should only be large enough to hold you and all the stuff you put in there... The parts of the car that are not there require no streamlining. To kinda quote Jack Costella and me... don't go through the air, go under it. There is a lot of drag generated by hauling lots of air inside your car.
Ok that means the smaller the better...
Why are you starting your taper after the rear wheels
You want your parachute to pull straight back, if you want to see how Ack did that read more of the stuff on this site. But basically the vertical center of gravity.
Suspension... hardtail with travel? I would have suspension at Bonneville on all wheels. My new suspension is about 1 up and 1/2 down. Start looking at build diaries...
Nobody makes canopies... with that said it is not impossible to do and Gustafsson Plastics, Inc makes windscreens, in fact you might even find Lakester windshield in their product line...
Ok, get a rule book, keep designing, go to Bonneville and look at the cars. If you bring PBCs you might get invited to climb in cars to help you see how much room you need.
We let kids of all ages sit in our Lakester. :cheers:
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Thanks guys. Manta, I contacted John @ Stroud and got the ball rolling on the parachute.
Stainless, if the car was any narrower, I would be sitting sideways. Its as wide as the cage and enough height I think I would be comfortable sitting in. I see guys with their shoulders under the bars and have to slide into their seat like they are changing a transmission on jackstands. If my ass was on fire, I dont want to take any longer to get out of the car than needed. 28" is wide enough. Plus I want some room to scratch my butt if need be. Its tapering passed the tires because im not ready to get into a car with a rear track width of 15", plus the plan is a rear mounted, chain drive snowmobile motor, mounted between the tires. That width gives me enough room to get a motor, drivetrain and a single brake caliper, if I want the motor positioned as is. But Im not even there yet. I want to get a model built and wind tested before concentrating on all that.
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We let kids of all ages sit in our Lakester.
And some moms too.
John
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You scratch your butt at the end of the run or before you get in. I can?t scratch mine and I?m in a roadster.
Your design doesn?t matter if you have a lot more horsepower than your competitors.
Good Luck and continue to have fun first..
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Is this Jimmy Six from Egg Harbor?
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plus the plan is a rear mounted, chain drive snowmobile motor, mounted between the tires.
John,
What kind of conversion do you have to run the snowmobile motor on Steam?
The site likes people to put your location in your avatar, as you might have some folks from the site who live close to you. Thanks.
Tom G.
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See. I knew not being able to preview my post before was gonna bite me on the ass. I was thinking methanol steam.
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Ok. John @ Stroud set me up with some details I needed, so I can get to work on a model for testing. Wish me luck.
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Ok. Before I started designing the car, I bought the rulebook. I based all my rollcage dimensions from the reclined position image, with the seat back angle as my starting point. Today I found a article on Mark Lingua's K/BFS that he set the record with in August of 1991. The man is literally laying down in the car with the front hoop in line with the side of his helmet. Today the rules states the bar needs to be 3" in front of the helmet and any deviations from the provided layouts needs approval. Is that driver's position legal today?
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When we started on our lakester we built a preliminary frame and roll cage design from 2X2 wood. Quickly found several flaws in design before cutting and welding tubing.
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There have been lots of safety updates since Mark set his record. I don't remember when it changed, but he may even have had a 1.5" roll bar because that was legal for G and smaller. I think it was sometime in the 90s when we had to update our bar to 1 5/8 and add protection to 3 inches in front of the helmet.
I can tell you that a new streamliner did not pass tech last year because the roll bar was about 1/8 inch under the 3 inch requirement. I do not believe you will be able to get that deviation approved... unless maybe if your ZIP starts with a 9 :evil: OK, that's an inside joke.... I do not think any deviation related to safety can be approved because the meet's insurance is based around the safety rules.
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Thanks Stainless. What about the nearly laying down driver's position?
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Well if you look at my avatar that is the original Bockscar. There is a Bockscar 2.0 build diary in here... it is a lay down car. the body is 24x16 the canopy pops up less than 9 3/4.
She looks pretty good without the wheels sticking out
Ran OK at SpeedWeek as well
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Thanks for sharing, Stainless. Again, I set my dimensions based on the rulebook image, so Ill be reworking just a few things. Like everything lol
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for visibility reason you need to think of getting the driver way more forward .. I have a lakester a my height is very similiar to yours I am a big guy but the top of the car to top of head should be very similar
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Sparky, that windscreen is 7" tall and the "hood" is V shaped between the front wheels, so total view is 10". You dont think thats enough?
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Im sorry. My image doesnt really represent that detail. What you see is near the "cowl" area. It slopes down between the wheels another 1.5". 10" total view.
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Ran OK at SpeedWeek as well
Ah, Stainless, such modesty. First time out, Bockscar 2.0 set a new I/BFL record! Yep, she ran OK.
John
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Nice!!
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Similar to bearingburner when I built my liner i did a frame of PVC pipe for cockpit and other fitment issues. Thought I had plenty of space. Forgot to wear helmet (which have gotten bigger) and fire suit when sitting in the car so car was built and I couldn't get in and out safely, needed to cut the front bar and redo it. Onece at the track. Be sure you have full suit on if you go that way. Firesuit is bulky (you are getting a -20 aren't you?) and helmets take up a lot of space. Krikey, with todays rules, getting out of a door car is hard, let alone a laydown lakester or liner. You need space for fire bottles, coolant, fuel, etc etc. It gets really tight in a small liner. Give yourself space and figure everything before cutting steel. Have fun, looks good. ( I am also using snowmobile power)
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Similar to bearingburner when I built my liner i did a frame of PVC pipe for cockpit and other fitment issues. Thought I had plenty of space. Forgot to wear helmet (which have gotten bigger) and fire suit when sitting in the car so car was built and I couldn't get in and out safely, needed to cut the front bar and redo it. Onece at the track. Be sure you have full suit on if you go that way. Firesuit is bulky (you are getting a -20 aren't you?) and helmets take up a lot of space. Krikey, with todays rules, getting out of a door car is hard, let alone a laydown lakester or liner. You need space for fire bottles, coolant, fuel, etc etc. It gets really tight in a small liner. Give yourself space and figure everything before cutting steel. Have fun, looks good. ( I am also using snowmobile power)
Thanks Jack. The way its designed, I have 2.5" extra between the shoulder bars and seat bucket and 1" around the helmet, including 1" padding mounted on 1/8" plate. Thats without a firesuit. I havent given the drivetrain a lot of thought yet but what did you do for a transmission? Im thinking a Baker Drive 7 speed with a harley primary.
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My liner was >35years ago (built it 1982) and had Cosworth vega engine with t10 4 speed. Current engine is 5cyl two stroke in my G/GC Nissan 240sx. We briefly thought about a CVT type drive but it wouldn't fit without serious surgery, if at all, and would not hold the power and distance with traditional belts so it was a non starter. We adapted a traditional bellhousing, clutch/flywheel and G force 5 speed to fit. My engine builder told me multiple times I needed a 6 or 7 speed with very close ratios (no such animal exists in a RWD sorta traditional configuration that I am familiar with, until you get to the $15-20k region for trans only which is also a non starter for me). He finally relented and went on to other things to say I was doing wrong, LOL. Your 7 speed sounds good.
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John,
If you, or anybody else you think might drive for whatever reasons, wear bi focal eyeglasses the more reclining the driver the odds increase that a pair with just the distance prescription will be required. Different helmet chin bar and eye port designs are major factors. Now is the time to be planning placement for easy viewing of any instrumentation you might want to run.
It has been said that a job well planned is a job half done, from my limited experience I didn't plan half enough.......
Stay safe and have fun,
Ed
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Thanks for the suggestion, Ed. Been meaning to get new glasses :cheers: Instrumentation would hopefully be a small display, shift light and a mechanical speedo. Figure if Im on fire and the electrical system is burned out, I dont want to take a guess at what MPH im jumping out of the car at LOL I think the display would be up in the canopy, right in front of the rollcage.
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Getting the fire suit early makes good sense. Their ratings don't expire like helmets, so the only reason for not having one from the beginning may be financial. I always preferred the two-piece ones. You can get the bottom on way before getting two or three back and simplify getting the rest of the gear on later.
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Stan, I never ran a fuel class before so I never looked at a suit for it until right now. Even though you can not put a price on safety, I really wasnt expecting those prices lol. Im glad they dont have a expiration date. I would just have to control how many peanut butter cups I eat.
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Thanks for the suggestion, Ed. Been meaning to get new glasses :cheers: Instrumentation would hopefully be a small display, shift light and a mechanical speedo. Figure if Im on fire and the electrical system is burned out, I dont want to take a guess at what MPH im jumping out of the car at LOL I think the display would be up in the canopy, right in front of the rollcage.
Having had a blown engine at speed (260 or so) and a fire, I was well out of the car before it stopped LOL> Safety is paramount and as you say below, can't really put a price on it. Get the best stuff you can. A -20 suit is expensive and bulky. Design for it. Fuel is not a determining factor in the rules for suits, speed is. Minimum is a -15 suit anyway (>175), and small, relatively speaking, step up to a -20. Also, with respect to cage design and getting out of the car remember that now a Hans or similar is required in all cars and definitely makes a difference getting in and out.
Also remember that all safety requirements are based on the record, not what your car is capable of. A lot of folks want to come racing with a car that will go 150 on a 250 record just for fun etc. Has to meet the 250 specs. (suit, fire bottles, etc etc)
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Thanks for the suggestion, Ed. Been meaning to get new glasses :cheers: Instrumentation would hopefully be a small display, shift light and a mechanical speedo. Figure if Im on fire and the electrical system is burned out, I dont want to take a guess at what MPH im jumping out of the car at LOL I think the display would be up in the canopy, right in front of the rollcage.
Having had a blown engine at speed (260 or so) and a fire, I was well out of the car before it stopped LOL> Safety is paramount and as you say below, can't really put a price on it. Get the best stuff you can. A -20 suit is expensive and bulky. Design for it. Fuel is not a determining factor in the rules for suits, speed is. Minimum is a -15 suit anyway (>175), and small, relatively speaking, step up to a -20. Also, with respect to cage design and getting out of the car remember that now a Hans or similar is required in all cars and definitely makes a difference getting in and out.
Also remember that all safety requirements are based on the record, not what your car is capable of. A lot of folks want to come racing with a car that will go 150 on a 250 record just for fun etc. Has to meet the 250 specs. (suit, fire bottles, etc etc)
Im use to drag racing, and fuel is the determining factor on the firesuit. And damn, I forgot about the hans device cromag
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John, Bonneville is drag racing... but instead of 1/4 mile confined by walls and a catch trap at the end it is 5 miles, a car out of control can end up anywhere.... sometimes 3/4 of a mile from where the accident begins. Fire and rescue response is good, but that means maybe a minute before help arrives. That is why a firewall that seals liquids is imperative... you want all the flammables to stay away from you. Believe it or not, Special Construction cars can do that job a lot easier than the others.
I've said it before... build it like your life depends on it.... :cheers:
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John, Bonneville is drag racing... but instead of 1/4 mile confined by walls and a catch trap at the end it is 5 miles, a car out of control can end up anywhere.... sometimes 3/4 of a mile from where the accident begins. Fire and rescue response is good, but that means maybe a minute before help arrives. That is why a firewall that seals liquids is imperative... you want all the flammables to stay away from you. Believe it or not, Special Construction cars can do that job a lot easier than the others.
I've said it before... build it like your life depends on it.... :cheers:
A little bit more about me. Im a Compliance Manager for a shop that converts vans into ambulettes (non emergency ambulances) I wrote the shop process plan for manufacturing and beyond. I had to cover everything from the time raw materials came in the door to delivering a vehicle. Safety and liability. Took me nearly 2 years before we qualified for Ford Motor Company's QVM program. Safety is drilled in me. Everything I would design into this car will be based on what if's. What if im on fire at 200 mph? Where do I put my safety harness for my peanut butter cups? Etc etc.
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Make sure to get SCTA-approved peanut butter cups. I forget which page/rule number (in the rulebook) has the specs... :deal
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Make sure to get SCTA-approved peanut butter cups. I forget which page/rule number (in the rulebook) has the specs... :deal
:roll: :roll: :roll: :-D :-D :-D
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See. I knew not being able to preview my post before was gonna bite me on the ass. I was thinking methanol steam.
John,
Thanks for the correction on the fuel used. I had to ask as you never know what someone is trying to do in this venue. :?
As far as Peanut Butter cups being available, in Wendover there is a Smiths market everyone goes to. Give them a call and ask about the PBC's. 1855 W Wendover Blvd. Wendover, NV 89883, (775) 664-3306.
Good luck with your build.
Tom G.
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See. I knew not being able to preview my post before was gonna bite me on the ass. I was thinking methanol steam.
John,
Thanks for the correction on the fuel used. I had to ask as you never know what someone is trying to do in this venue. :?
As far as Peanut Butter cups being available, in Wendover there is a Smiths market everyone goes to. Give them a call and ask about the PBC's. 1855 W Wendover Blvd. Wendover, NV 89883, (775) 664-3306.
Good luck with your build.
Tom G.
Thanks bro!!!
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OK. Im really close to finalizing the model body for tunnel testing, so I need your help again.
Where do I go to have it tested?
What scale would be best for testing?
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Best bet (cheap) may be a tethered fish scale in the back of a pickup at about 63 MPH.
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Check out a local university with mechanical engineering component and see if they have a model sized wind tunnel.
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Do a mathematical description of your body and call Woody at Design Dreams. He can run it through his CFD program and give you a lot more good aero information than you will ever get from a wind tunnel especially using a scale model.
Rex
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Oh I like that idea, Rex. Thanks
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I filled out his contact form 8 friggin times. Dont know if its my internet or its on his end.
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Contacted myself so me thinks not my end! :-P
PM me and we'll get connected. Will be later this week or next!
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Contacted myself so me thinks not my end! :-P
PM me and we'll get connected. Will be later this week or next!
lol8 lol8 Ok will do.
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Woody, For whatever reason the form refuses to go through. Please contact me at jmonte001@gmail.com when you get a minute. Thanks.
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Just so you all know, I will be blessing you guys with my presents at the World Finals (If they happen). Youre welcome.
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And if any of you chubby guys wanna put a skinny dude in your car, Im your man.
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What kinda presents are you bringing?
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The wrapper from my peanut butter cups.
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I received a disappointing message from Mickey Thompson's sales department. They said their 21x2.5x17 front runners are not certified for landspeed racing or wouldnt give me a speed rating. The car was based upon that tire and the only thing close to that is Goodyear's 22x5x15, that Im aware of. Ultimately I wanted a even shorter tire and I dont know what other options available up to a 300mph rating. The best motorcycle tires I could find are slicks rated at 186mph but 23 or 24" tall. Do I have any other options here?
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Goodyear might have a tire you can use. Scroll down to Landspeed racing at the bottom. They give speed ratings also. http://www.racegoodyear.com/tires/pdf/Goodyear_Racing_Drag_Catalog.pdf
Size:22.0x4.0-17, Rim Width:2.5", Diameter:22.9", Section Width:3.4", Tread Width:3.1", Weight Lbs.:5.2, Average Circ.:72", MSRP :$274, Speed Rating:300 MPH. @ 90 lbs air pressure, and 1200 lbs. max load.
Hope this helps.
Tom G.
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Other than the Goodyears, there are few if any tires that are "landspeed rated" and I have heard many people say if they call other mfg's to inquire, they get silence, a click or other responses as you did. SCTA does not require "landspeed" rated tires just tires designed for racing purposes if over 200mph (Rule 2.F). Front runners and other drag tires (not "slicks"), nascar tires, other types of racing tires (many don't have tread of course) are often used. Other folks with small lakesters and liners may have other advice- Stainless, Rex Shimmer etc. As you are building a liner, space considerations with your build may be more important than the frontal area consideration seen with lakesters and the drag therefrom. The motorcycle guys have a lot of trouble finding tires that pass their tech in the higher speeds. There are many threads here from folks looking for advice about that. Do a search here you will find a lot of discussion about tires in general.(and opinions both ways about wide vs narrow) :cheers: :dhorse:
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Thanks guys. I really want to run the smallest tire I possibly can.
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If you look around you can find tires smaller than 22. Our rears are the 21 inch Goodyear LSR, our fronts are 18 x 4.4 Goodyear
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Since Woody will be busy for the next few months, I thought I would try some different designs.
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i would consider dropping the top down some more starting behind the eng bay and the bottom up a little more, staring at the rear axle area --unless you just have to have the cubic space maybe removable strakes on the bottom for ease of loading. build for the smallest tire possible if you have to change dia in the future go larger is easy down usually impossible
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i would consider dropping the top down some more starting behind the eng bay and the bottom up a little more, staring at the rear axle area --unless you just have to have the cubic space maybe removable strakes on the bottom for ease of loading. build for the smallest tire possible if you have to change dia in the future go larger is easy down usually impossible
Sparky, just to verify your suggestion....are you saying to lower the parachute tubes, which would lower the body profile on top of the tubes behind the rear wheels and raise the belly ban after the rear wheels a bit?
As it sits, the car is 22 feet long to the parachute tube, 26" inches wide, 22" tall at the fenders and 29" tall at the canopy. Rear stabilizer is 36" from the ground. And you are spot on about its easier to add to the body than removing. Thats why I was hoping to find smaller tires than 22".
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To me the nose is not going to work. Looks like it would split a lot of air under the car... Narrowing the sides will split the air around not above and below. Nish streamliner showed this when they changed the nose. The sharp point needs to be more rounded...
Now, to clarify... I am not an aero guy... so that is just my opinion...
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Sparky, like this? I would like to point out that as of your suggestions, the overall height of the parachute tube support is 13". I think thats just enough to support two 6" tubes (if I ever go that fast to need two)
The reason why I had the belly pan so low at the rear was for the fact that fluids dont like change, so my thinking is the least amount of change, the better.
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I like the modification as well but also agree with Stainless. When I built my car I basically copied the main structure and body from Don DeBring's car but with the nose more following the Goldenrod design. I have a couple of papers about LSR aero and the design of the Goldenrod in particular you may like. If you like I could fax or scan and email them. PM me if you want for contact info. The articles are SAE papers, old but interesting in general with a lot in the Goldenrod one.
Specifically, some air under the car is not necessarily bad but the Goldenrod designers specifically wanted at least 50% of the air going around the sides and less over the top to help avoid front lift. I think the tested (but ended not using) a nose design with a vertical, rather than horizontal tip as the 4 sides came together. I ended with a vertical junction about 4-5" to accentuate the flow around the sides. The car never was twitchy, has been over 300mph and included a run where a front tire blew at some speed ( I was not driver on that one) and it did not upset the car at all. Basic shape was tapered as was Goldenrod and pretty much all liners these days. Lumps and bumps are not good either. ;)
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To me the nose is not going to work. Looks like it would split a lot of air under the car... Narrowing the sides will split the air around not above and below. Nish streamliner showed this when they changed the nose. The sharp point needs to be more rounded...
Now, to clarify... I am not an aero guy... so that is just my opinion...
Stainless, thanks for the suggestions. Maybe if I explain my thinking on this would help me learn more.
DISCLAIMER: IM NOT A AERO GUY EITHER. I HAVE NO FORMAL SCHOOLING ON THE SUBJECT. ALL MY THOUGHTS COME FROM GUT FEELINGS AND WHATEVER THE PEANUT BUTTER CUPS TELL ME TO THINK :naughty
The nose comes to a sharp points My thought is that is the air's 1st contact point on the body. Im talking about the very first point. And since its very small, that actual point would create the least amount of pressure in front of the body. The pressure points would start within the body's boundaries. I actual DONT want the sweep into the belly pan. I want a tunnel. But if I cant have one, and Im forced to run a belly pan, why not keep the transition as smooth as possible instead of a more blunt radius at the nose? Wouldnt it help keep the air attached sooner to the body than a more blunt radius? Im sure the air will seperate under the car regardless but my thought is the blunt radius would make that issue worse.
The height from the point to the belly pan is 3" . Aside from the aero, I felt that was just enough to keep the nose from digging into the salt like a lawn dart if the front tires let go. I would rather not create any high pressure areas transitioning under the body but its unavoidable. Volume under the body is 15%
My thoughts is a tunnel would create the least amount of pressure, if the entrance and exit geometry was exactly the same. Again, the peanut butter cups is telling me that.
The fenders taper is 50% of the body's width. I feel this would create the smallest width of high pressure air, below the centerline of the wheels Again, I dont know, gut feeling and peanut butter cups.
Thanks.
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Again, I have no formal training on the subject but I do have a few principles about it that works for pretty much everything on earth.
1. If the air doesnt have to contend with it, its not a problem
2. Fluids do not like change whatsoever. The least amount of shape, the better.
So in my original design, I did every I thought I could about creating the least amount of change. So whatever the frontal profile was at the front, it carried out to the back, ending in somewhat of a point. The roof was the same height and tapered in and the main body section was the same height and tapered in.....
Then I realized volume comes into the play as well. The body was taking up too much dead space in the rear and adding to the surface area, so lets trim the fat there. Thats when I tapered the canopy at the rear, to the main body. I figured the original body would be more stable without a stabilizer, but stabilizers are small and work well, so even a taller stabilizer would take up less volume than how the body was.
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Tough to say without dimensions, but I would be surprised if you can get your eyeballs, head, helmet, and roll bar underneath the roof as shown and still be able to see out the front.
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Tough to say without dimensions, but I would be surprised if you can get your eyeballs, head, helmet, and roll bar underneath the roof as shown and still be able to see out the front.
The top of the fenders is 22". Between the fenders, at the front wheels, the hood tapers down 3". The bottom of my chin is at 22", right at the height of the fenders at the side. Again, the hood tapers down at that point to 3" between the front wheels. The canopy is 7". The windscreen is 5" tall and its mean center is 12" in front of the rollcage hoop, 16" from my eyes. This gives me a total blind spot of the track, exactly 20 feet in front of the car at 1.5" ground mclearance. Is that too much? Am I overlooking something?
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John, do you have a helmet yet? They take up a couple of inches of the height you are working with. If you look at the Bockscar 2.0 build I think I have the top of the cage about 9 5/8 to 9 3/4 inches above the rails that establish the top of the front body. With that if the car sat level you would not be able to see very close, not that you need to.... but... the rake of the car allows vision about 60 feet in front of the car.
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John, do you have a helmet yet? They take up a couple of inches of the height you are working with. If you look at the Bockscar 2.0 build I think I have the top of the cage about 9 5/8 to 9 3/4 inches above the rails that establish the top of the front body. With that if the car sat level you would not be able to see very close, not that you need to.... but... the rake of the car allows vision about 60 feet in front of the car.
I see where I screwed up. When I orginally started designing the body, I had the hood in a V shape that was 3" deep between the front wheels and the hood didnt meet the top of the fenders til AFTER the canopy. So the windscreen was 2" lower than the top of the fender at the front. I had the centerline of my eyes at the top of the fenders or 2" higher than the windscreen. Since then I changed the hood to meet the fenders 1" in front of the windscreen. I changed it to simplify the design and make it easier to produce but completely forgot about the view. Now, as is, the hood is right inline with my eyeballs. And to make matters worse, I forgot the damn 1" of rollcage padding. :oops: :oops: :oops:
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And thank you all for the help and support so far!!!! I really appreciate it.
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The yellow line represents the old hood profile. And again, thanks for all the help.
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John, do you have a helmet yet? They take up a couple of inches of the height you are working with. If you look at the Bockscar 2.0 build I think I have the top of the cage about 9 5/8 to 9 3/4 inches above the rails that establish the top of the front body. With that if the car sat level you would not be able to see very close, not that you need to.... but... the rake of the car allows vision about 60 feet in front of the car.
Do I have a helmet? Yes. But its over 20 years old and one state away. Do I have a new up to date helmet and sock being shipped on the 16th? Thats also a yes.
:cheers:
Clutch
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Clutch, the new helmets are a bitch to fit into tight-fitting cages where older helmets fit just fine. :cry:
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Clutch, the new helmets are a bitch to fit into tight-fitting cages where older helmets fit just fine. :cry:
Yes Manta, thats what I assumed. Im nowhere near ready to fabricate anything but figured a new helmet will help push the build. I hope to have the car built before the helmet expires LOL. PLUS maybe a chubby dude wants to put a skinny dude in his salt car for a scoot.... lol8 hey....you never know!
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Raised the canopy 2" to 9"
Lowered the body by 4" to 18" (thanks to Stainless helping me find smaller tires)
Shortened by 6" to 21.5'
Changed the nose profile completely with a sharp 9" vertical seam.
1.5" radius at the top of the fender and bottom of the rocker, transitioning to that 9" vertical seam at the nose.
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A quickie of the front end for the green car
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Two things to be aware of in the design process with a lay-down position in a liner, many helmets aren't open enough at the bottom to allow forward vision & the head & neck restraint choice is also limited.
Sid.
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Two things to be aware of in the design process with a lay-down position in a liner, many helmets aren't open enough at the bottom to allow forward vision & the head & neck restraint choice is also limited.
Sid.
Thanks Kiwi. Yes, I was aware of these points when I purchased the helmet. Hopefully the Racequip Pro20 will work. As far as the Hans, looks like most claim a 10 to 40 degree adjustment on them. Ultimately the finished design will be based on these points and Im months away from atleast having a solid direction to go in. I really appreciate the support from you guys.
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I ended up with a Zamp helmet & a Simpson Hybrid Pro Rage in my liner. The chin of the helmet is on my chest & the Pro Rage without that forward part of the horse collar allows it to work for me. I'm so far down there that my eye level is only 18" above ground level & it's a 4WD liner.
Sid.
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Yes and to SS point go look at the new Mitsubishi jet plane and the latest Jap bullet trains or a loon. great entry shapes
I suggested the rear for several reasons---CHUTE stability and loading and unloading the more I kept aero cleaning my cars up in the rear the better my chutes fly.
Also I dont detect much rake you may want to read up on that a little bit most recoment 2-3 deg. if I remember correctly
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To KIWI point the chin of the helmet will rest on your chest HARD and you may have to be creative we have had to be
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The outpour of support via emails is amazing and I really appreciate it. Im lost in a sea of information as some emails I wasnt expecting and other.....Im not exactly sure who its from lol. I apologize as emails is not my main means of contacting but that looks like its about to change.
Thanks a lot!!!!
Clutch
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As far as salt build up, how much room should I leave inside the wheelwells? I was thinking 3" overall.
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Back in the middle '80's somewhere Don Garlits showed up on the salt with a streamliner. Don't recall how fast he went. My son and his cousin, then aged 12ish and having seen my car and understood your question wandered by to see what they were up to. They inspected tire clearance to body work and opined in the hearing of some crew member (who seemed to have taken lessons from Don who I understand was not the nicest of guys) that the tires were going to rub. That got them a "get out of here you stupid kids" sort of comment. After a run or two they wandered back to see what was up and low and behold the same guy was there with some tin snips cutting away body work for more clearance....... :cheers: :dhorse: :clap
The tires grow, some more than others, no matter the rating. Body work is more a problem than salt and I can tell you from experience that 3/4-1" even with 350mph rated M/T tires is not enough LOL> Belly pan is the spot where likely clearance is closest. You don't need 3" there but 1-2" should do it. Other folks here will likely chime in as well.
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"Don, who I understand is not the nicest of guys."
I'll echo that, but not the particulars."
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Back in the middle '80's somewhere Don Garlits showed up on the salt with a streamliner. Don't recall how fast he went. My son and his cousin, then aged 12ish and having seen my car and understood your question wandered by to see what they were up to. They inspected tire clearance to body work and opined in the hearing of some crew member (who seemed to have taken lessons from Don who I understand was not the nicest of guys) that the tires were going to rub. That got them a "get out of here you stupid kids" sort of comment. After a run or two they wandered back to see what was up and low and behold the same guy was there with some tin snips cutting away body work for more clearance....... :cheers: :dhorse: :clap
The tires grow, some more than others, no matter the rating. Body work is more a problem than salt and I can tell you from experience that 3/4-1" even with 350mph rated M/T tires is not enough LOL> Belly pan is the spot where likely clearance is closest. You don't need 3" there but 1-2" should do it. Other folks here will likely chime in as well.
Thanks Jack, Im glad to here that. Even though I havent bent a single tube or 100% sure where the bends will be right now cromag Im all ready aware how tight everything will be, and a inch is a inch.
My experience with Don is nothing but daisies and puppies. In 2002, our I.E.D.A. World Finals in R/C drag racing was held at Don's museum. Record number of turn outs with over 140 entries. A normal event draws half that. The place was so packed that we started pitting on Don's grass. It was my first win in Top Fuel Nitro. Don signed our trophies. It was the event where the first nitro car ran in the 1.6 second range (132 feet track) People from Puerto Rico, Texas,California and Washington state showed up. The museum is a must go-to. The only bad thing about it was Don got pissed off because the grass got messed up and wouldnt allow us to come back.
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Garlits followed Don Kerr into the 2club driving a flathead powered Streamliner sponsored by Speedway Motors. Kerr had a lot to do with it and I congratulated him when he entered the club. For sure that Don was nice guy. I dont know anything about Mr Garlits. The streamliner is on display at Speedy Bills museum.
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JD, I was thinking it was the Arden motor from Tommy Thompsons Original Goldenrod... but my memories are all good ones. I remember Don G went just past the 1 on his first run and turned out... said the car was all over the track. Don Kehr, AKA Don the other driver when we were joking with them, was then tasked to drive the new liner to shake it down. Don K had been driving the Original Goldenrod, a liner built on a Model A chassis that barely stayed between the lines, so he jumped in for the next pass and said it ran arrow straight... I think qualified and they ran records the next morning leaving a good cushion. Don G back in and made it farther... he said he thought he had run the whole distance because it seemed to take forever.... Several runs later he was getting comfortable and making good passes... qualified and got in the Club.
We generally pitted next to Tommy and the Speedway guys and were pitted next to the new "Swamp Rat Liner" they brought in 88. Of course were were kids (in our 30s) in awe of meeting and chatting with "Big Daddy" but he was quite pleasant with us and the ribbing he took for being slow...
JD, I think we borrowed your hydrometer and a little nitro that year to really blow up our 750 Honda in the Lakester. We couldn't get it 3 miles on alcohol without burning a piston so we went way richer drilling out the jets to try 30%... it was getting toward the end of the week... made it past the 1, but not quite to the 2. Ya know it doesn't matter how big the mains are if the needle that lets the fuel into the bowl is smaller :?
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No, doubt on the Ardun and Garlits not knowing how to accelerate on the salt. I had met Don Kerr many years before with Tommy and was happy to see him get in the 2 club. Flathead and GMC guys all knew each other back then as we ran against each other for the records...
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As far as salt build up, how much room should I leave inside the wheelwells? I was thinking 3" overall.
Goodyear's are a little stiffer in the wall than the Mickey's so the Mickey's will grow a little more but it depends also on what size you're looking at running. Whatever speed you're thinking about now, that will become more later so you might not want to limit your design to a smaller tire, then down the road find yourself making lumps & bumps trying to get bigger rubber in there. It takes less power to turn a big tire than it does to turn a bigger gear. I have 30" Mickey's on my liner with 2" of growth clearance, that's 4" in dia.
Sid.
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OK, How about " Don was not known to always be a kindly, touchy feely sort" ? :wink: :dhorse:
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As of lately, Ive not spent much time on facebook. Im sick and tired of the censorship. But regardless I am on facebook and would like to invite you all to send me a friend request if you like. I have many accounts. Most are banned. But if you would like to find me, look for a profile pic with my handsome face and long beard photoshopped onto a body with a blue t shirt that reads "I give pedicures on cameltoes". That would be me :clap Would be good to message me here or in private message before hand. Again, Im not spending much time over there lately. As Im sure most of you will understand, Im stuck in my Think-Tank til further notice.
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Cameltoe Racing has a fine and VERY fast, but disappearing, history on the salt: https://web.archive.org/web/20090820100857/http://www.cameltoe.net/ (https://web.archive.org/web/20090820100857/http://www.cameltoe.net/) :cheers:
Mike
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I wonder if I'm the only racer with a Cameltoe Racing shirt. It's even button-up, not just a t-shirt. WoW!
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I remember when Cameltoe came to the salt.... I even got a great pic
So John... now you see how easily this group can be led astray muutt
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I remember when Cameltoe came to the salt.... I even got a great pic
So John... now you see how easily this group can be led astray muutt
Sir, I wouldnt expect anything less from you bunch aktion086
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Stainless --
Please remind me what that was all about . . .
Stan
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Stainless --
Please remind me what that was all about . . .
Stan
Ice Cream and tacos Stan... Ice Cream and tacos
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SB...I am far too dumb to post video, So...YouTube/bob and tom/cameltoe
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Let's see this thread started out about John's streamliner design and now we are on "camel toes"!!! Is this site great or what!!
Rex
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Well......that escalated quickly lol8
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Let's see this thread started out about John's streamliner design and now we are on "camel toes"!!! Is this site great or what!!
Rex
To quote Bob & Tom's Cameltoe Song
"I never thought I'd see
So much of your anatomy
Your jeans are so tight
I'm learning gynecology"
Yeah, ain't Land Racing great :evil:
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We need to get Woody to CFD a cameltoe. Clearly Jack saw the potential.
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Fuzzy Vortex Generator? :-P
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You have to remember that Jack was never concerned about going thru the air. He just went under it.
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Seems like the more I learn, the more I change the design. Its a vicious circle I tell ya.
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LSR our wonderful sick addiction :evil: of Balancing compromises ---to get to visit the Mayor of IMPOUND :police: and stay overnight one must Learn to be the master of tradeoffs !! :cheers:
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The last 2% of any project consumes just as much revenues & resources as the first 98%! :evil:
In this venue you will become expert at modifying the modified, modifications! :cheers:
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I blame you guys for my troubles. Too many great designs and approaches cromag aktion086 lol8 lol8
WELP.......atleast I have a better chance of not killing myself I guess.
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That may depend on your wife accepting your new mistress competing for your time!! :roll:
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Now I see why lakesters are so popular. What a pain in the ask trying to tuck tires into a space that pretty much doesnt exist. Is steering really necessary?
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Now I see why lakesters are so popular. What a pain in the ask trying to tuck tires into a space that pretty much doesnt exist. Is steering really necessary?
Like brakes, only for getting on and off the trailer....... :evil:
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But that's half the fun of streamliners... hiding the tires from the air....
Yep... even lakesters shouldn't be able to make tight turns... a 1/4 mile u-turn is as much steering as you need. You learn to master the 20 point turn in tight spaces. :naughty
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I decided no steering or brakes at all. Dont really need it. Instead, Ill have two oars/rutters that dig into the salt to steer. John @ Shroud must be busy because Im still waiting on the quote for the boat anchor launcher.
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Launcher?? Are you using a round tube with a spring pilot or a rectangular with a pneumatic ram pilot? We have pneumatic rams available if you or anyone else needs one... new, just pay shipping and give Slim $10... I can get the length if anyone is interested... thinking 10 inch stroke w spring retract.
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I thought this was funny and many can relate.
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:oops:
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The helmet finally showed up. I guessed the basic helmet size right, but the side air inlet through me a curve ball. Ill also need add height to the chassis, if I dont want to strain my neck forward.
Its a step forward.
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Looks like your mainly asking for aerodynamic help, but don't forget weight balance.
Your drawing looks rear heavy if the motor is in the back
We ran 50/50 front/rear
I definitely would not go past 60% on the rear
Back to aero ...The nose on our car had 0% lift at 380 mph. Roughly copied off Micky Thompson's 2nd car. The problem with sharp corners on the body is your not always going straight into the wind. The air need to also flow with a cross wind
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:oops:
Helmets keep getting bigger all the time. Safer, I'm sure, but a PITA when it comes to fitting in a roll cage.
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:oops:
Helmets keep getting bigger all the time. Safer, I'm sure, but a PITA when it comes to fitting in a roll cage.
Yes sir, its 3/4" taller from the centerline of my eye sight compared to my old helmet.
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Looks like your mainly asking for aerodynamic help, but don't forget weight balance.
Your drawing looks rear heavy if the motor is in the back
We ran 50/50 front/rear
I definitely would not go past 60% on the rear
Back to aero ...The nose on our car had 0% lift at 380 mph. Roughly copied off Micky Thompson's 2nd car. The problem with sharp corners on the body is your not always going straight into the wind. The air need to also flow with a cross wind
Hoffman, the basic lay out has changed a lot since my original post. I posted a few concepts within the thread. Moved everything forward. Challenger 2 was also my inspiration. As time goes by, the influences from everyone makes me question it all. My original thought was to not create even the slightest amount of high pressure in front of the car but rather have it aft of the leading edge. Now Im starting to realize that slight high pressure is actually better for the aero overall. The air will be disturbed no matter what shape we use, so the quicker its disturbed, the sooner it can recover.
Beautiful hot rod you got there.
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One of my fondest memories of the "SALT" was in the 90's when my kid and I always looked forward the the Hoffman-Markley streamliner warm up on the trailer, in the middle of the pits and letting that aroma of big nitro waft through the crisp, cool Bonneville air. God I wish those times never ended. Thanks for the memories.......
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This is the (all- or any-time) kinda run I enjoyed . . . even the speed shifting . . .
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyEfDr_9AVg
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This is the (all- or any-time) kinda run I enjoyed . . . even the speed shifting . . .
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyEfDr_9AVg
r
Nice audio, too. Lotsa Doppler shift on that run!
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This is the (all- or any-time) kinda run I enjoyed . . . even the speed shifting . . .
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyEfDr_9AVg
When will that stop giving me goosebumps?
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A symphony by a maestro! :cheers:
Hearing and feeling it is nearly orgasmic! :evil:
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Sorta like watching a fuel dragster go by at 300 mph ...then shifting as it fades into the distance. :cheers: :cheers:
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I may be wrong (often), but I believe the car was a 2-speed. I remember seeing it usually take a couple seconds (not really) to make the gear change while half the crowd thought he'd aborted the run.
Al and I are the same age. We both got drafted and went to Ft. Riley and Viet Nam at the same times. Our Bonneville experiences were quite similar, too. We both ran record-setting '29 roadsters. He ended up going twice the speed I did, so I guess that counts for something.
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Only double... :roll: seems like more... of course he had to upgrade the roadster a little
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I may be wrong (often), but I believe the car was a 2-speed. I remember seeing it usually take a couple seconds (not really) to make the gear change while half the crowd thought he'd aborted the run.
Al and I are the same age. We both got drafted and went to Ft. Riley and Viet Nam at the same times. Our Bonneville experiences were quite similar, too. We both ran record-setting '29 roadsters. He ended up going twice the speed I did, so I guess that counts for something.
It was an old Weismann Indy car transaxle set up to use only 4 speeds. Your memory is good, it was a slow shifting - mis shifting bitch & this run was right after I redid the shift mechanism & we never broke a gear or had any problems after that.
Sid.
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Oh man what memory's I'm fortunate to have experienced the sound and site of Al making a run in Betsy on my tourist visit to the salt in the late 80's the run was in the high 300 range. To think so many decades latter Al is a great friend and Sid has taken me under his wing guiding me on a number of areas to help improve my race car each suggestion has add more MPH.
Ronnieroadster
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A four speed box? So he would push off in low and shift ...3 times? 1drink
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I was also the pusher back then. We'd push off in 1st gear without the engine running, then Al would pop the clutch at about 40, wait for the oil pressure to come up then light the mags, shove the clutch back in, clean the engine out & leave the truck. I would just stay in it until he left me & we would always have the windows down for the music & the nitro fumes. 8-) :cry: In that clip we were still only running one mag, the small 8-71 blower & 50% nitro. Terry (aka Podunk) was one of our fuel guys back then too.
Thanks for the nod Ron, it's been a pleasure Mate! :-)
Sid.
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No bloodless cipher there . AKA turbocharger
JL222
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Always the highlight of the day. And the week. And the year. It's hard to express how most of us felt "involved". Felt the challenge. Felt the victories along with the failures. How the fu_k can something like that be so important. I don't know. But it was and still is.
I barely had a nodding acquaintance with Al. I often passed him up on 93. One time there was an international motorcycle event -- a full-bore off-road ride around Nevada with all these support vehicles zooming south on 93. I'd passed Al just before the right turn above Shelborne's (sp?) and pulled over a few miles further at the 93 split at the store-bar-motel-gas station-camping site (which part of it was open that year). There were 30 or 40 bikers there on a break. I told them if they paid attention, the world's fastest wheel-driven car was to motor by in a couple of minutes. He didn't motor by. He stopped to cool his trailer tires. The crowd wasn't sure what it was, but they sure were interested. He told me if he went over 45 MPH he just invited tire problems. I don't know how much the rig held with all the "spares" and all, but I bet it was a bunch.
A bunch of us were buying T-shirts(+) which probably didn't amount to much. But to me it seemed a better investment that trying to sponsor a multimillion-dollar car for a rocket engine to go with its jet engine and somewhere a Formula One motor to light them off or something.
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If you look up "class act" in the dictionary there is a pic of Al and Betsy!
When he dropped her into 4th and really put the pedal to her that was a sound that cannot be replicated, there is nothing like the sound of a big hemi with blower and big percentage, probably at around 5800-6000 rpm pushing the wind! A sight and sound that all of us that were lucky enough to see will never forget.
Rex
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With a 4-5/8 crank 7200 was the big number & we could make multiple passes without even pulling the heads. One meet we made eleven passes then changed the engine on Thursday for a class change to the B engine. It liked to put all the oil in the top of the engine & out the vent hoses onto the chutes so it was a little hard on bearings until I built what became known as the Sidburger oil pan design then the back of the car was always as dry as a popcorn fart as somebody phrased it.
Sid.
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Hello all! I hope everyone is well. Life got in the way and I forgot my password here. Im still driven to build and possibly, a build dairy post might be made in May. Lots have changed with the concept except the desire to run the K class. Plan is to build with a J motor and get on the salt ASAP. Ive been in touch with Sparky lately and he is always a blast to talk to. I might let this post die and start a new one at some point. Stainless, expect me to be twisting your ear soon in PM :clap