Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: MiltonP on July 03, 2009, 10:13:23 AM
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My Ninja 500 still has the stock 520 O-Ring chain and I was browsing through the options for replacement. Greg (roadracer) and a few other mentioned running standard (non-O-ring chains) on lower HP bikes. The cheapest standards only have a wear resistance of around 100 while the DID Super seems to be a good choice with a wear resistance around 400 and tensile strength around 8k that seems to match up with the race duty O-ring chains.
What I am wondering about is DID's new narrow VT2 Enduro Racing Chain that is X-Ring style. It costs about twice as much as the Super Non-O-Ring but has a wear resistance of around 3,000 and was recommended at my local shop since my bike was only 500cc.
Any thoughts on O-ring versus x-ring versus no ring? I seem to remember non-O-Ring dirt chains from my childhood having an oiling mechanism which is obviously something one doesn't use on standing mile course.
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The lightest non-oring chain will free the most power. Wear resistance is for endurance racing :)
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I'd have to agree with Sabat....
Just my two cents worth (take it for what's it worth because I have not even run on the dirt yet!) Seems to me chains would be an expendable item in this form of racing. I would think you'd want the cheapest, lightest, non o'ring, hightest tensile strength chain you could get.
Buzz
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Not a bad concept. I run 5 times a year between Maxton and Bonneville maybe 30 runs total and I replace the chain each year.
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sheri and i buy the cheapest chain we can get --we go to 6 meets at el mirage and 1 at bonneville --we run about 60 miles a year---and put new chains on before the may meet--we do wash and oil them between each meet---we run the same chains on our street bikes ---on the street bikes we replace them every 30000 miles willie buchta
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I work for an auto supply co. and we have an "industrial" chain that comes in varous sizes. I use 1/2" for the primary chain. Its crap! My Norton makes 55hp give or take and the chain lasts one run. I get it cheap so I can afford to do that. When I went to Bonneville I bought a length of the best non o-ring DID. Its been on there since 2007 with no signs of wear or stretching. So it will depend on what you want to do. But the best and not worry or buy some cheap industrial crap and change the chain each run.
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lose the chain and run a car!!!!!
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bill when i say cheapest chain i was talking about motorcycle chain --- usually cc rider from custom chrome willie buchta
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Willie, when I say cheap I mean cheap!
Mazda 1807, Nearly there Willie, Sheri and I run three wheels. You need to lose a wheel and really have fun.
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I have plenty of fun on four wheels as well as you guys have on two or three!!!
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Industrial chain is not designed for high speed. I use miles of Diamond 50 chain in our conveyor system. It lasts for years in constant velocity power transmission applications driven by a 2 horsepower electric motor at 1750 rpms. I wouldnt dream of using it on a motorcycle.
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I have to use several chains for road racing due to the selection of sprockets I use depending on the course. Because I am running an 60 year old bike I stuck with Reynolds GP 520 chain until it was no longer available. I switched to RK GB520MXZ4. It has a tensile strength of 9,000 foot pounds, which is reasonably high and is suitable for 500 motocross bikes, which make more power than mine. I do not have any experience with O ring chains, but I would agree with the comments already posted. I clean the chain with WD40 and oil it after cleaning. I am too chicken to use cheap chain, although I have been buying the RK chain as cheap as I can find it on line. I would not worry about wear and replacement every year is probably a wise thing. I rotate my chains, cutting the longest ones down when they start to wear out. I use the largest sprockets (and longest chains) most. The short ones I only use a couple of times a year.
David
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The Ninja 500 is no horsepower brute. If I were you I'd look at just about any inexpensive non o-ring chain you can find that is suitable for your application, most will be in a 520 config save for the really inexpensive Bikemaster. They even state they are rated for 250cc last I checked their entry level 520 non o-ring. That being said LSR isn't quite like the drag strip and I can't see you coming out the hole chain stretchingly hard on a stock wheelbase Ninja 500! Best of luck.
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There you go Milton. DID makes a good cheap chain that my 250 or your 500 will not use up in a full year of Land Speed runs. I only put the DID gold on the 636 because I had one left from roadracing. As of next year it will be gone and it will be the standard cheap DID. Keep it lubed and clean, check the tension on it and if like the 250, it will last all year.
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Nortonist, I would stay away from the Industrial chain..
the end results could be more that you can afford.
- very rapid wear, which can wear your sprocket as it rides up the teeth.
- I have seen them split rollers, when that happens, things go downhill fast.
- I have a few 18 T sprockets that are OEM, one has 2 teeth left, the other 6 left, they sound like popcorn coming off.
Maybe you have a ready supply of sprockets, but for me it is just no longer worth it.. not to mention if it broke during a run.
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754, As I said i work for an auto supply company and seeing that we do industrial chain I had to try it. I wouldn't dare use it at Bonneville. I tried it at El Mirage and it is a ONE run chain. If I had any more HP I wouldn't even think about it but I'm one of those curious people and had to find out how bad the chain was. I bought a strand of the best quality non o-ring D.I.D. chain and it is lasting way beyond my expectations. Expensive but its one laess thing to woryy about. Funny you should say "broke during a run". The last strand of Renolds I had (of a 20' length I bought years ago) broke right before the lights at El Mirage.
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Ok
Although I don’t claim to be a “chain” expert…I have destroyed quite a few…and by “destroyed” I mean when we sent them to RK in Japan for evaluation they simply were amazed at what we had done to them…. So first off I wanna say, “buy the best chain you can afford” and if you cant afford it, save your money and them buy it…. Really, there is a huge difference in quality of chain and the performance between them…. Go to your local dealer and have them show you a cheep chain and a pricey one… compare the thickness of the link plates, compare the pin size and the roller themselves, you will see a huge difference… As for the “O” ring and non “O”ring…we tried no “O” before, that’s when we were stupid… not saying we are smart now but we believed in the “less drag” theory…. no “O” always failed way faster than the “O”…the reason is that the link plates rub on each other every time it makes a turn around a sprocket and creates a tremendous amount of heat, so much heat that the chain turns purple… the “O” ring spaces the link plates apart so that they don’t rub…and after the chain warms up the “O” rings don’t drag any more… if this was a 50cc bike I would say no “O” but at 500cc you need "O"…. We ran the best MX chain RK makes on the Aprilia that Dusty set the 250PP record with…the fastest he ever went was WITH the “O” ring chain and PJ1 lube (in the blue can) stay away from that chain wax crap…. Stay away from high solvent cleaners like WD40 as it gets trapped between the rollers and pins…if you need to clean the chain of excess lube test the cleaner on your fingers first, the solvent should evaporate fast or don’t use it, then lube the livin snot out it….. I have been sponsored by RK for 23 years but during my chain problem years we tried other brands…. they failed just as quickly…. Hopefully we have our chain problems past us... RK was helpful and supportive so my suggestion would be RK 520MXZ4…it is the lightest MX chain, Biggest pin dia, thickest plates, and should last you a season, and don’t buy the GB unless your into that gold plated bling bling extra charge…. good luck
Kent
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What were you doing when the chains turned blue..?
We have gotten quite noteworthy long life out of standard chains (good quality) lubed with gear lube, on street bikes of medium HP. probably more than some get out of Oring chains.
It always seemed to take the shock of laying rubber and doing burnouts quite well..
Interesting what Regina chains recommends to use on their products.
If you have something that works well,stick with it..
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Not a bike guy, but I'm hearing Sister 'Ree (Aretha Franklin)
"Chain Chain Chain
Chain Chain Chain
Chain of Fools"
I'll leave it to you guys to decide how that fits in here.
Dan
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I know this thread is about low HP bikes, but I run a 530 non o-ring chain on my high HP turbo-ed Hayabusa. I have to replace the chain every year. Not necessarily because it stretches, but because no matter what I do to clean the chain, it always ends up corroding by the time the next season comes up. So I have to consider chains to be disposable. I have a chain from last year that I cleaned with kerosene as soon as I got home, then sealed it in a baggie with about a cup of oil. I just looked in there the other day and it is very corroded. It is not frozen, but the plates and rollers got crusty, even immersed in oil. Salt is evil.
Don
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But it is fun. :-D
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I know this thread is about low HP bikes, but I run a 530 non o-ring chain on my high HP turbo-ed Hayabusa. I have to replace the chain every year. Not necessarily because it stretches, but because no matter what I do to clean the chain, it always ends up corroding by the time the next season comes up. So I have to consider chains to be disposable. I have a chain from last year that I cleaned with kerosene as soon as I got home, then sealed it in a baggie with about a cup of oil. I just looked in there the other day and it is very corroded. It is not frozen, but the plates and rollers got crusty, even immersed in oil. Salt is evil.
Don
Don,
You should be running a Subaki Sigma 530 O-ring chain..and a rivet link as well, if you are coming to El Mirage let me know and I can get one for you and bring it along with a chain breaker and a rivet tool as well.
J
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Don
those non "O" drag chains don't get the extra corrosion barrier treatment that a standard chain gets.... the drag chains are designed to be replaced and tossed after 3 drag hits on em..... so they don't get the extra treatment.... we use 520 on the PP bike.... 520 is actually stronger than 530..... it has the same link plate thickness but the distance between the plates is narrower so less chance on pins bending or in our case breaking.... I know i know the book says the 530 has a higher tensile strength than the 520 but what you are actually looking at is strength on the roller face so a 530 has a wider face than a 520 so the higher the TS but believe me a 520 is stronger than a 530.... and has less reciprocating weight....
Kent
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Don are you running Tsubaki 530 QR?
1212, are you saying the QR is not corrosion protected or a different drag chain?
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Why don't people use tooth belts ?
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What were you doing when the chains turned blue..?
How about 220 mph in our Lakester :-o With a 20 front and 26 rear sprocket. 1212 has it right :-D Spend the extra money, that is if you are going to run the long course. On the short maybe it doesn't make any differance :roll:
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I have been using the EK 530 DR2 chain, but now with John's and Riches comments, I may change to an O-ring. I can't easily change to a 520, because all my sprockets are for 530 width chains. So I may just get the Tsubaki o-ring chain. Which brings up another issue... The X-ring chain is supposed to have a lot less friction (they claim) than the standard O-ring. Any thoughts on that?
PS . Thanks for the offer to bring a chain to Elmo John. However the only event I can make it to this year is BUB.
Don
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As for the “O” ring and non “O”ring…we tried no “O” before, that’s when we were stupid… not saying we are smart now but we believed in the “less drag” theory…. no “O” always failed way faster than the “O”…the reason is that the link plates rub on each other every time it makes a turn around a sprocket and creates a tremendous amount of heat, so much heat that the chain turns purple… the “O” ring spaces the link plates apart so that they don’t rub…and after the chain warms up the “O” rings don’t drag any more…
Why are the strongest drag racing chains non o-ring? Are the pins longer on an O-ring chain? Are they more likely to bend? Is this potentially a problem with a very high hp bike that can get some degree of traction (asphalt or concrete track)?
For some reason I seem to recall that the ZZZ o-ring chains do not hold up well to high hp turbo apps, where there is traction.
I don't much about chains, but I sure am curious.
Shane
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Don, you can thin the sprockets in a lathe. Rears are easy, front is tougher, can be ground and measure carefully.
If they are surface hardened you may break through so might be better to buy a front. Make sure you radius or bevel tips, just like the side you left.
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My plan is to go ahead and run my current stock chain at Loring and switch to the DID Super non-o-ring chain in Maxton this fall probably. On a side note, I overheard a track day rider at work recommending a nearby shop to someone who was looking at getting into racing. A racer I know also gave a thumbs up so i decided to swing by there today and check it out. Needless to say, i was quite pleased to find Ali, one of our land speed racers, working there. He was quick to confirm everyones 'critique' of my tuck style by the way! :roll:
The shop, RnR, in Sterling, VA is operated By Rick Beggs who has also worked on some Ninja 500's in the past which is a nice bonus. I decided to pass on running at the dragstrip saturday and take the bike to shop for a short dyno session instead. Of course, if the weather is great saturday then...
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Don, you can thin the sprockets in a lathe. Rears are easy, front is tougher, can be ground and measure carefully.
If they are surface hardened you may break through so might be better to buy a front. Make sure you radius or bevel tips, just like the side you left.
Yes you can do that, but only try it with rear sprockets. Front sprockets can be a lot harder than rears and are more likley to shed teeth under load. When i used to work for a Ducati shop we found that even using non genuine front sprockets could be a problem with shedding teeth
On your 500 i would run a decent DID, Tsubaki, EK or other quality "O" or "X" ring chain in a 520. It may cost a bit more at first but it will last a lot longer
And John Burk, belts and various size pulleys are a whole lot more expensive than chain and sprocket combinations, they are also a lot more sensitive to alignment
Gray
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Hey Milton, good talking to you again after Maxton. I think for a 1.5 mile venue like Loring, while the non-oring chain may help you slightly, you'll pick up more doing other things....go faster, spend less! :mrgreen:
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....go faster, spend less! :mrgreen:
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my wife keeps spending faster so i can go less
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(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Miscellaneous%20stuff/rotfl.gif)(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Miscellaneous%20stuff/rotfl.gif) Good one!
Mike
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Yep...won't be changinging it for now. Only thing to do before Loring is get that stock rear sprocket back on and see how high rpm I can hit in 6th. Then decide wether to go -1 again or take off some plastic and run modified. That may be detremined more by budget than anything else though.
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Are clip type chain master link connectors allowed ? I only have about 25 hp to try to brake a 520 chain :-P But I would hate to show up and find out that I need a rivet type master link.
Thanks
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I think so, but you can use a dab of RTV to help it from getting popped off.
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Eric,
Are you coming back down in september?
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Yes ,I miss you all to much to stay away
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The old roadracing trick is the RTV and a piece of safety wire around the link. The s/w on my link made it through Maxton and Loring. The chain goes away now. It's non O ring and disposable. Just my preferance.
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I Got the non o ring chain and it came with a clip fastener, That is why I was asking . I would have to go find a rivet type master link some where else.and buy another chain tool .(I lent mine out)
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Spring clip master links are acceptable
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Chains can corrode if they are taken off of a salty bike after lake racing and they are put directly in oil. This does not seem possible from a chemistry standpoint but it happens.
I use a good Tsubaki non o-ring chain for racing and a DID x-ring chain for the street. Why do I do this? I can take the non o-ring chain off right after I race and soak it in lots of water. This dissolves the salt. Then I put the chain in the oven at low heat to dry it. Then it goes into a bag with some oil. I can get the salt out of a non-o-ring chain so this is why I use it. My bike does not have much power, but I get years of life out of a chain by doing this.
It is rare for a master link clip to come loose, but it happens. I have never heard of a riveted master link coming loose.