Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: ddahlgren on May 18, 2005, 06:12:00 PM
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Nissan 350Z N/A stock 2 passenger,2 turbos stock sheet metal. Sounds like a blown gt car am i missing somethig?
Dave
<small>[ May 19, 2005, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: Dave Dahlgren ]</small>
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Think your right.
JB
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Works for me.
Dan
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This is a question that has intrigued me. The rulebook states under production coupe and sedan:
"This category does not include cars properly classified as Sports or GT, such as foreign cars without rear seats suitable for continued adult occupancy."
F/PRO is held by a datsun 280Z 2+2 and J/PRO is held by a Honda Z600 coupe.
The 280Z 2+2 I can understand because the body was different from the regular 280Z to accommodate the back seat, but you would have to be a sado-masochist to think an adult could use that small Hondas rear seat :twisted:
How come the Honda Z600 is not classified as a GT?
I believe the Honda Insight would be a GT, which would permit any Honda engine?
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Concerning rear seats . . . how big is big enough for 'continued adult occupation'? Well, not having any first hand knowledge on this, I would suggest contacting the technical points of contact listed toward the end of the SCTA rules (Appendix B if my memory serves me correctly). Several months back I had a series of questions about rules for Gas Coupe. I contacted Mr Sykes and got fairly timely and positive feedback.
Concerning the Honda Z600, I guess some common sense needs to be applied here. I am trying to imagine any production 'sedan' that was available with a 750cc or smaller engine that had a real big comfy rear seat. Cars like the Crosley, Fiat 600, Honda Z600, Subaru 360 so i guess alittle leeway on back seat room for J/PRO is warrented.
One problem though. As I see it - if the body is a legal sedan in PRO it is therefore legal in any Coupe class. Right? Anybody know where I can get motor mounts to put a small block in a Fiat 500?
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Certification by the DOT could be proof enough to establish the vehicle as a 2 seater or a 4 seater.
My kids rode thousands of miles in the backk seat of My Honda AN600 with the blessing of the DOT.
You might want to take a look at a Merc LN7 and a Ford EXP to decide. Elmo thought He was looking at it every week until he saw I hasd 2. I really had 3. They were cheap. LOL
The Berkly guys can help you with the SBC nounts for your Fleot.
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How about a Saab 93. 748cc and a decent back seat. I was just wondering what tech would do if someone tried running a car like the Honda AZ600 in GT. Someone could claim it was legal in GT on the basis of the small back seat. I thought Mercury ran an LN7 in GT.
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Was my understanding, at least in the past, that the Owner/Driver were responsible for properly classifying the body. Engine, safety etc taken care of by tech. If someone objected, they had the option to protest. Perhaps recently the inspectors require some proof of proper classification.
In 1986 and 1987 a Ford EXP ran in gas and fuel in GC, ALT, CC and GT classes and set records, some of which still stand. This was done by changing the number/class designation on the car,(and for sure without meeting all the requirements for all these classes) a process which is clearly prohibited in the rule book. Not to mention that a car cannot run production and GT as noted in the above posts.
I protested (though not at the meets- which is required I now know). I never had the courtesy of a response. Think that the owner being on the board had anything to do with that?
I am sure such a problem would not occur today ( at least I hope not)
Sorry for the rant. Has bothered me for years.
Jack Iliff
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You are not correct now or then.
1. The gas coupe had a motor swap.
2. The altered had the grill and head lamps covered.
3. The Comp Coupe had an engine set back , a belly pan, and a streamlined front end.
All on a Ford EXP certified by Ford with the DOT as a 4 seater.
The Mecury LN7 was produced on the same platform as a 2 seater. It featured another front end style and a fast back.
I only had 1 vehicle at Bonneville and made all the changes and was inspected each time.
I had 3 of them and unless you ran El Mirage, you never even saw 2.
I was sandbagging about 10%. Ask Honda with the S2000 project.
Want to race now ?
OBTW: My 1L was faster than your 2L.
If you think that being on the board had anything to do with it, you are not thinking and the result could be an insult if it was not such a laffer.
Be carefull........
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All on a Ford EXP certified by Ford with the DOT as a 4 seater.
A 4 seater? When was the EXP EVER a 4 seater? The rules do not state DOT certified, it states fitting adult passengers. Where could you do this in an EXP? Maybe thay could lay in the back.
Maybe the rules were different then, but with z's and the twin turbo supra and others running pro and altered instead of gt something is and has not been right.
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Most of my competition was Scott Harvey who was the Chrysler Mgr. for the Shelby Charger with Carroll Shelby as the name behind it. He seemud to be convinced.
The documentatiion was provided to the DOT and the Insurance industry by Ford. You might want to check with them also.
Honda also did some research on it, but not enough to go faster I guess.
Is that your problem ?
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Most of my competition was Scott Harvey who was the Chrysler Mgr. for the Shelby Charger with Carroll Shelby as the name behind it. He seemud to be convinced.
The documentatiion was provided to the DOT and the Insurance industry by Ford. You might want to check with them also.
Honda also did some research on it, but not enough to go faster I guess.
Is that your problem ?
where can you sit an adult in the back of an exp, or z, or supra or..... there is a big grey area. Again, I do not know how the rules read then, but now you need to be able to have "continued adult occupation". You can do it unless you get protested.
I do not have a problem, just trying to understand.
Could you sit in the back of an exp for any period of time?
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The SCCA also classified the EXP as a sedan.
The rules for SCTA have not changed with respect to that car.
The Foed Escort had the same rear seat as the EXP. The LN7 had none.
If you sat in the rear seat of My Camero, it is likely your knees would touch your ears.
Why don't you pick on the Crosley J/PRO in the pictures ?
When you are done, you are really going to hate the J/GC and stuff.
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I have owned a Fiat 600 and there is not much run in the backseat. However if the manufacture wants to advertise their car as a 2 or 4 passenger then that should decide whether the car runs as a GC or GT. A car can't change from GC to GT.
SCTA should never have allowed the same car to make this change if this even did happen.
Was there a car that changed back and forth from GC to GT as Jack Iliff mentioned?
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The same engine was also used in 2 roadsers the same day at El Mirage and set 2 records. They didn't like that and now it is not allowed.
Remember I had 3 FWD Ford products. The combination of parts to establish a 2 seater or a 4 seater was well documented and observed.
Remember the factory efforts from Chrysler and Honda ?
GMC factory didn't like getting beat by a Buick that was a Monza from a hotrodder either.
Continuious adults come in all sizes and cars too.
Pick a small one, they are easier to make go fast and the driver eats less.
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Two seater? Four seater? Interesting. This brings to mind cars that were sold both ways. One example was the Chevette Scooter. That was an ?economy? version of the Chevette sedan that came with only front seats. Since the rules allow the removal of rear seats anyway, it would be interesting to see someone slap a ?Scooter? decal on a Chevette and enter it as a GT. Of course it gets a bit more confusing when you take into account that you could order a back seat as an option in the Scooter.
I don?t see a problem when someone tries to run a sedan type car in GT. Where is there an advantage in that? Why would the sports car guys be upset with that? Generally speaking you would expect a sports car to have better areo than a sedan.
However if someone wants to run a 350z or a 911 as a sedan ? well, that might not be considered fair . . .
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What configuration was approved for sale by the various agencies, and in the US it would be the DOT.
The insurance industry is also a clue.
A single seater El Camino with a big block runs with the sedans and a sinle seater Corvette is a GT.
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A hnadful of years ago I owned an LN7. The front had a pair of "bucket" seats, and the rear seat area was just a deck. I eventually removed the deck - so I could make room for my daughter's car seat -- and found, IIRC, there were wells where the seats would have gone if they were to have seats back there and even vestigial seat belt attaching holes.
Disclaimer: I have no further interest in this discussion and do not stand to make a profit from it. Just thought I'd make a comment in the "car' part of the bb for a change!
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The floor pan was the same stamping for an EXP, Escort, and an LN7.
The feature he mentions in the LN7 was called the package tray. 8)
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The general criteria used to determine if a car is a coupe/sedan or GT is the manner in which it was/is marketed. If it is sold as a sports coupe with a rear seat then it is a coupe. Most sedans have four doors. If the car is sold as a sports car with just two seats then it is a GT. If you have a Porsche 2+2 it is still a GT. The use of common sense will generally dictate where a vehicle is placed. There are hundreds, if not thousands of combinations out there. I certainatly am not going to catalogue in my tiny head all the possibilites. If Miler Mike Stewart and Jim Dincau fit in the back seat you have a coupe/sedan.
Do your homework like our EXP/LN7 friend and show us the proof of purchase seal. You'll probably end up in the correct class. How many of these esoteric cars are going to be built anyway? If each person that mentioned car from this thread alone were to actually build one then we could add maybe 30 more entries.
Build it, race it, have fun - things will take care of themselves. Call 811 for a good time.
DW
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I still remember Mike laughing when I put the Comp Coupe package together. He fits the back less now than he did then.
The expression on Elmo's face when he found he was inspecting another car becaus I did not unload the other one yet.
When Wendy set the first record at El Mirage by a women and scored both first ans second place in the Roadster Club , the old guard could be heard falling on their swords.
If it was easy----------well you know what I mean.
433 views, it must be a real hot button.
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My comment about the board was about the lack of response to a rules queston. I can see how it might have been circular filed. No offense to the board as a whole intended.
As far as Mr JackD's comments I did not post to start a "mine is bigger than yours pissing contest" which he seems to want to do. I don't care if he built a car with smaller engine that went faster than I did. Happens all the time. I don't care if he has built a car that can go faster now. I don't care how SCCA classifies a car nor the DOT. I care how SCTA-BNI sets the rules for classification at Bonneville.
The Ford EXP ( check out www.fordexp.com) (and LN7) were marketed as sporty 2 seat compacts. They were identical except grill sheet metal and hatch contour. They were built on the Escort pan so had footwells under the carpet and shelf but no back seat. Ford promoted that it was the first 2 seater since the 56-57 TBird ( which is not legal to run production). I imagine you could bolt in a seat but doesn't make it legal, whether Mike S can get in it or not. As Dan points out how the car was marketed is determining. A LN7 ran at Bonneville in 1981 and set 2 records- IN GT CLASS. (Hot rod sponsored).
Mr JackD indicates he had only one EXP at Bonneville. In 1986 it set 3 records in GC and Gas and Fuel Alt. No problem. Easy to cover headlights. In 1987 it set 4 records. Gas and Fuel CC. Belly pan and Nose stretch. OK. Engine setback??? Why in world do that with a transverse mount FWD car. Would hurt rather than help. OK. Problem for me was the records in 87 in MS and GT classes. Can't have it both ways. Mr JackD suggests he left 15mph (10%) on the table. The records were all within 7-8 mph and if you throw out the lowlier were within 5mph (interesting the CC records slower than the MS and GT- so much for streamlining). Considering the folks who would sell their first born for even a few mph, I have to take this statement, along with the others, and consider he has been smoking something funny or expects that we are if we are to believe this.
And as I am wrong now as well as then, I guess he thinks the board is a bunck of skunks looking out for themselves and their own interests in stead of the racers, the salt and the meet.
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The LN7 you mention from Hot Rod was 1 of the cars I ran.
The documentation I provided from Ford and the DOT established the suitability of the cars for a particular class.
I did my homework and prepared to set records.
It did attract a lot of attention as I expected it would and I was prepared and did provide suitable information. The fact that I took least advantage of the changes allowed is your problem.
Honda and Chrysler were part of My competition and you are not. I suspect they knew what they were doing and so did I.
I can see what you are doing and as you say"I don't care".
:roll:
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Ah yes. LN7 running both GT and Modified classes. And 2 of the records you broke happened to be mine so that makes me not your competition?
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Not if you don't pay attention to the documenthation that establish the EXP.
512 viewa
The lesson for the day is "Prepare your documentation and your entry."
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So far, what I've got out of this is that we might be able to start new Roadster classes -- Production Roadster. You'd have to have one with a rumble seat (4 passenger total).
And then maybe, if you used that gasoline that's readily available to the public with ethanol in it, we could start Fuel Street Roadster classes!
Think of the creative possibilities with a little documentation when you show up in impounds!
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At least there would be no minimums to cause embarrassment.
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I am just trying to understand. a 911 is a 4 seater, classified as such by dot etc..... so is lets say an exp. neither can fit an adult for sustained time, why then can't a 911 run pro or alt? I have seen a mitsubishi 300 running pro, a 240 2+2 (not a 4 seater, back seat less than 911) and many other 2 door sport cars with minimal back seat. If the rule is DOT then that is what it should say.
I still wonder the answer to my question Jack. could you sit in the back seat of an exp from SLC to Wendover? (I too thought it was identical to ln7 but for grill.
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I could if I was not already stuck in the back seat of the Crosley. Did I mention the Honda AN600, I think I had 4 of them over the years ?
Was that Venom or Hooten that had the 300mph Crusley ?
Was it all the same car /
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If you all hadn't figured it out.
Question #1. What do you want to know about any SCTA, BNI, FIM, FIA, rule etc: car or bike?
Answer.. Ask JackD he's never wrong
Question #2. Any other question?
Answer.. See answer to question #1
:wink:
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it really interesting when a guy, posts the facts, as he personally
knows them from fist hand experience..........which are documented
as correct then and now............and is one of the only
people on the planet who's expertise at timing and certification has been sought and utilized
by FIM, FIA, LSA, SCTA/BNI, AMA, cars and bikes.....as well as volunteering and serving in various roles on scta board/tech comittees for decades.....and because of
or inspite of this is snipped at by many of the SCTA/BNI............
its very revealing.........
its one thing if your not truthful or accurate, its quite another when
you are............
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Polytricks are their own reward and are often cannibalistic. :roll:
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jacksoni,
Please refresh my memory as to the rules question you asked from which you have not received an answer. I'll try to accommodate you.
Warner
PS - Thanks for your help last August, made my week easier.
DW
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Dan, you have PM
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thats FUNNY Dan.............I clicked on the thread........read
his question.........and read the answers to it........from the EXACT
OWNER and board member who was there................
did you disagree with the answer.........and or not look to see
the question already posted on this thread???
or are you trying to be silly again??
either way..........hope to see ya soon.......
Joe :)
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Dan and Mike were and are still are the best thing that has happened to tech for the car field.
I have gone toe to toe with both of them and ya win some and ya lose some. But you better get it right.
You don't back them down, but you might suceed in providing some information that will not only help them do the job better but make the rule easier to enforce.
The racer will go at them from both ends of the book and if you are worth your salt, it will get better and that helps everybody.
Don't quit your day job because the pay in tech is limited to the sence you get doing a good job.
I don't pat POPOs but respect is more often earned that it is rewarded.
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and or not look to see
the question already posted on this thread???
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You're right Joe. I didn't pop back to page one and see the original question. I thought that Jack I had asked a question in a different forum.
We PM'd. Issue resolved. Be there on the 10th.
DW
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:P Just a quick one for all of the rest of the folks out there in speed land, I have been a real believer in facts for the cause, however, this is a real test of the mental faculties for most of us. I have yet to bring out any type of vehical to the flats. I live out here in Utah and have seen many a record squashed because of technicallities of registration. It would be quite symple to make only a few classes instead of some 586 ways to register a vehical to run for speed records. In the old days, which I am only 47, which makes me really young in speed business, there were not too many types of classes to run. I propose a vote to be made to symplify and ratify the whole works and start from what is actually available from the auto manufactures of today. If you have a vehical, runm it from when it came. And the simple mods that are allowed to a vehical to make it aero-dynamic, that does not conciderably change the overal appearence from the show room floor. If a vehical was classified to be a sedan, run it as a sedan for the day of running. I the same frame, body style and make was offered as a four seater, put in the back seats and run it the next day. Lets get it right you all. enough is enough about what is ran. If the vehical passes inspection and documentation is accepted, don't cry if your butt is left in the dirt. That is what next year is all about, come back then with something else. I have eight rides that are in the works, ranging from a '34 Ford truck on up to a '79 Alpha. I have old tanks and trucks and big supper sleds, that would be my '42 Hudson. When each one is finished, I plan on bringing them out. I guess I will have to deal with all you big cry babies about how my rigs are setup too.
Lets get along and deal with fact that we all are out here to have fun.
Please don't ruine it for our future drivers and make this sport way out of reach dur to quibling over what design you are up against. Run what you brung and deal with life as it really is, just breath! 8)
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Rule change forms are available in the tech area at all salt events.
Warner
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Bruce Crower built and ran a Modiried roadster and a Streamliner, both with more inovation than 10 other entries. Some of it worked and sone of it didn't.
He certainly has the resources to do anything he wants.
He is most famous for his Hudson and he is happy to share that story.
He is a Hot Rodder, no differant that the guy that builds in his garage.
That is the streangth of the sport.
Money is no object. just ask GM, Ford,Handa, or Al teague. about their efforts.
Dividing the results with more classes is it's own reward.