Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Genuine GM on October 20, 2009, 10:15:50 AM
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In the post below I mentioned that I have a friend with a frame I could have. He told me the frame was a 29 Ford. He was wrong. The frame is a 28 Chevy. I have never seen fiberglass replica 28 Chevy bodies and I am not going to cut up an original steel body for a LSR car. So that brings up another question.
If I run Modified Gas Roadster, can I use the Chevy frame with a Ford Body? The rule books states any frame maybe used. I am presuming I can, but I wanted to clarify before I move forward.
I also noticed that in both MGR and GR there is no mention that the V4F must be of the same make or year as the body. So I guess I am asking, in either class, could I build car with a 31-32 Ford body, on a 28 Chevy frame with a V4F from another make and year up to the limit (1935 if I remember correctly, rule book is at home, I am at work).
I understand that in Street Roadster the requirements are much more stringent, that is why I am asking about GR and MGR.
Sorry for all the BASIC questions. This rule book leaves a lot open. Normally I would follow the "rule book doesn't say I can't, so that means I can," but I read, somewhere on here, that the BNI inspectors and participants have a more conservative view for the sake of equality. If that is true, it is actually refreshing.
This is a case where it is better to ask permission, than it is to beg forgiveness.
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"I also noticed that in both MGR and GR there is no mention that the V4F must be of the same make or year as the body. So I guess I am asking, in either class, could I build car with a 31-32 Ford body, on a 28 Chevy frame with a V4F from another make and year up to the limit (1935 if I remember correctly, rule book is at home, I am at work)."
--You're right! You're doing a great job of reading the Rule Book. And what's said above works for Street Roadster, too.
The World Finals saw a new roadster built for 6-figures that didn't come close to the class it was built for. Wonder whether the $10 that could be spent for a Rule Book would have been a good investment.
You're on the right track.
Stan
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On third thought, if you're contemplating a Rear Engine Modified Roadster, you'd be a lot better off starting from scratch rather than using a 80-year-old frame that has another make engine in the wrong place to start with. I can's see any advantage in using the rusty non-original.
Stan
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Roadster classes are one of the most competitive and cut throat, so if it were me, anything I did that I was questioning and is not clearly marked in the rule book I would get in writing from the Roadster committee. But that is just me.
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IMHO the finest example of a V4F/GMR and also V4F/GR had a '29 Ford body on a tube frame with Plymouth power. Mix and match to your harts content. That same car ran in V4/GR with a Ford head on the Plymouth block. No brand loyalty in V4 as far as I am concerned. Lately I have beed thinking Dodge. What are you thinking?
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I am open on what I run. I was thinking Dodge or larger truck based engine. I honestly haven't looked to deep into the options.
The more obscure the less performance parts, but the cooler it is.
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I am open on what I run. I was thinking Dodge or larger truck based engine. I honestly haven't looked to deep into the options.
The more obscure the less performance parts, but the cooler it is.
:? V4 is limited to 1934 and earlier, 220 cubic inches maximum.
Welcome to the fold, by the way. :mrgreen:
Mike
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Might want to reread the rules on that. I believe you are required to use a Passenger Car engine. No truck only designs. Anyway I destroked my Dodge to keep it under 220 cid.
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Roadster classes are one of the most competitive and cut throat, so if it were me, anything I did that I was questioning and is not clearly marked in the rule book I would get in writing from the Roadster committee. But that is just me.
This is an understatement, protesting is a sport in the roadster classes. :-o :-o :-o Tony
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Sure is!
I think we won the division championship a couple years in a row.
Stan
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Might want to reread the rules on that. I believe you are required to use a Passenger Car engine. No truck only designs. Anyway I destroked my Dodge to keep it under 220 cid.
Not arguing! but (having only an old rules book here at the shop), I always understood "automotive" as being 4-wheeled (or more than 4) self-propelled vehicle, including passenger cars, but not excluding trucks.
BTW, what's a destroked crank cost? Rods & pistons?
Mike
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It is not my understanding that the SCTA agrees with your interpertaion. I brought a Dodge Bros. engine to El Mirage a few years ago and along with others swore that it came from a car and not a truck. Someone tried to run a Hercules engine in V4F and no luck. Unless the thinking has changed in the last 3 years or so the deal is no truck only engines. BTW Not cheap but by the time you have welded counterweights to a Dodge crank, drilled it for oil, done whatever you needed to do to run modern insert bearings. Bought new rods because few would want to trust the 1926 parts. Stepped up for pistons anyway cause few if any want 4.5 cr. Worked some magic on some other flywheel or had one made to fit the Dodge flange. Worked more magic to install a dampener. Straightened the crank after all that welding. And so on. It was cheaper IMHO to go with abillet crank with the stroke I wanted, Chevy rod bearings, and pins, In this case Hundi main bearings. A 302 Ford flywheel to fit my blowshield already in the car. Bigger bores instead of sleeves. Chevy SFI dampener. A happy old Dodge.
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Genuine. The rule book is perfectly clear. It has been for more years than I am willing to count. Don 't read it with the intent of what you want it to say; Just read exactly what it says. If confused always return to the "Catagory" at the begining of the class you are picking and read the info there right along side the specifics of the class you want. Many things become clear when you do that.
You can mount a 29 Ford body on a 1959 Impala chassis and meet the rules if that is what you want in /GR. Remember all the other items/rule pertaining to /GR must be maintained IE: step pan (if used) total body-hood-grile shell length, floorboards etc. You are correct STR is more confining.
Most now construct their own frames; 2x4" and 2x6" are most prevalent and are done by the speed you want to attain (remember resale, everyone will want a 300 mph chassis someday). Many have gone to multi-tube; these can cause heart aches when interpreting step pans and floor boards.
Good Luck
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Thanks for all the replys. I am pretty sure I am going to get the frame. Now I am having reservations about engine class. I have a line on a good LS-1 that would look good in a /GR. Of course, that would demand more safety equipment.
That is in the future. For now, I need to get the frame, remove what I don't need and get it blasted so I can see what I have.
Once again, thanks for all the replies.
C. J.
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I am pretty sure I am going to get the frame. Now I am having reservations about engine class. I have a line on a good LS-1 that would look good in a /GR. Of course, that would demand more safety equipment.
From what I've read on the forums, the guys building the vintage and odd-ball engines are having the most fun. Anybody can build a Chevy - but you'll draw more admiration if you put a V4F Dodge engine on a Chevy frame under a Model A body. Don't give up on that idea yet - there's more to achieve.
One other thought. While it's nice having a frame as a starting point, a strong LS-1 might be a tad torquey for a '28 Chevy frame. By the time you rebuilt it to the point that it would be safe and modified it to take the Ford shell, starting from scratch is looking easy. A vintage 4 Dodge would be less taxing on the older frame, if you insist on running it.
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If you look at V4 and V4F Ford, Chevy, Plymouth, and Dodge have already been done. Step up with something we haven't seen before. Stun the troops.
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Genuine GM,
I love your little:
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..;.;;.;;;;...|__(O)__|____/(O)|
If your Roadster is done as well, you'll have done GOOD.
Tom
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Got to be honest. I stole the little truck thing from someone I know. I am not that computer savvy. Feel free to take and modify.
I am sticking with the V4F, don't know what brand though. I have some older contacts with "junk" as my wife says. I am sure I can find something oddball.
My mind is going like crazy. I have several ideas that I will need clarification on so I will try to post them soon.
At the risk of hijacking my own thread; I do different. I used to drive a '78 C-10 long bed that would run consistent LOW 13's and the occasional high 12's. I could have gone faster with a lighter car, but it was fun to jump on a Mustang or Camaro and surprise them. Looked like heck as well. I still have the truck, but the engine and tranny are going in my dad's '37 Chevy and the cab is a total rust bucket. Scored a CLEAN cab for free. I am keeping it all and gathering parts so my son and I can build it in 10-12 years (he's only 3 now) for a first vehicle. He'll be safe in that tank.
It is a shame we can't build them as fast as we can think of them.
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How about a Stutz? :evil:
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Stutz never made a flat head engine that I know of. I thought all the early engines for Stutz were made by Wisconsin and had “T” heads. Tony
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How about the Willys-Overland 4 cylinder out of a Henry J?
I have a buddy that got a Sear Allstate (Henry J) for free and is going to make a straight axle gasser with a 429. I can get the 4 cylinder for next to nothing.
EDIT--- Actually, I need to check the dates.
If the engine TYPE/SERIES was designed before 1935, BUT the block was cast in the 50's can I use it? Original design, later casting.
Honestly, I need to see when the original block was designed and cast.
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Or you could make a head like this one. I took this picture in impound at Speed week. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/thead1jpg.jpg)
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Is that an optical delusion, or does that FMR have the engine angled to the passenger side :?
Mike
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No it’s not an optical allusion, the engine is angled to the side. It was done most likely because the same car had an IRL V8 engine in it a few years ago and the angle was there probably for the drive shaft to clear the driver, and they left the rear end alone when the V4F went in it. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/roadsterirljpg.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/roadsterirl2jpg.jpg)
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Isn't a T-Head a Flathead?
Stan
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Now that's a very interesting set-up!
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I will try this for the last time if it dosn't take. Speaking of heads here I need to drag out the old Plymouth pictures. I made my head the proper way. With fins. Everybody knows that aluminum parts on race motors need fins. Hard to make compression with a Stutz. On the Willys, the short answer I got from Roy was "No." One head bolt was moved when military production started and the rule is pre 1935. That and it's a 134 cid engine in a 220 cid class. What about a Star. I have heard old guys say they were fast.
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If you look at V4 and V4F Ford, Chevy, Plymouth, and Dodge have already been done. Step up with something we haven't seen before. Stun the troops.
How about a Studebaker Light 4? :roll: