Landracing Forum
Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials => Bville Motorcycle Speed Trials Rules Questions => Topic started by: nrhs sales on September 25, 2013, 08:12:52 PM
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Records from Bubs 2013 are up on AMA website:
AMA Records:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Libraries/Racing_Documents/2013_AMA_Land_Speed_Grand_Championships-FINAL_RESULTS.sflb.ashx?download=true
FIM records:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/racing/nothng
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When I click on the FIM link it says page cannot be found.
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If you scroll down a bit on this page you can get them
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/racing/results
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Clicked on link for 2013 FIA records from link in previous post. Same message - page cannot be found.
DW
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I don't think FIM are up yet. just AMA
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If FIM are not up why is there a link?
DW
PS: my previous post should have read FIM vs. FIA.
DW.
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FIM records are up on the FIM website: http://www.fim-live.com/en/sport/world-records-attempts/events/
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It would be much easier if an organization could post records from a current event vs. listing everything from 1899.
Let me know if someone can put a FIM list together from the recent BUB's meet so I can check on possible new 200 MPH Club members.
Dan Warner
President
Bonneville 200 MPH Club
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You do know that Bubs has their own 201 mph club right?
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Don't care, does not affect the Bonneville 200 MPH Club. Call me when they have 60 years in service.
DW
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It would be much easier if an organization could post records from a current event vs. listing everything from 1899.
Let me know if someone can put a FIM list together from the recent BUB's meet so I can check on possible new 200 MPH Club members.
Dan Warner
President
Bonneville 200 MPH Club
Dan, it looks like all the 2013 records have a red asterisk on the speed. Want me to assemble a list of all the 2013 speeds over 200? -Dean
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Here's a quick tally:
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Thanks Dean, what I needed.
DW
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All the 2013 records.
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Don't care, does not affect the Bonneville 200 MPH Club. Call me when they have 60 years in service.
And people wonder why some of us think the SCTA folks are all a bunch of arrogant jerks.
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Don't care, does not affect the Bonneville 200 MPH Club. Call me when they have 60 years in service.
And people wonder why some of us think the SCTA folks are all a bunch of arrogant jerks.
Maybe you should have quoted the entire conversation, Dan said Bubs 201 club has no affect on the Bonneville 200 MPH club... and who may be eligible for membership. The Bonneville 200 MPH club has been in existence for 60 years and has nothing to do with the SCTA being anything...
Bubs 201 club will die when the Dennis stops hosting races.
So far we have seen the AMA go from ignoring their own class rules and awarding records to interpreting the rules as they go... How long do you think that sort of thing will keep folks coming back.
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Kind of like when SCTA said you could no longer run aftermarket cases in M class yet allowed all the old records to stand even if those were set using aftermarket cases. There are "issues" with each organization so lets not act like SCTA is perfect.
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Who had the list of what bikes ran aftermarket cases?
Same thing happened when they changed the PS rules, bikes got faster and records changed hands...
No one, especially me, thinks the scta is perfect... however the 200 MPH Club is not controlled by the SCTA, we are an independent organization, been that way for 60 years.
The case rule was at least 10 years ago... long time to piss and moan... I think you will never top Bak's record for grudge holding... quit trying :-D
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Nrhs...do you realize the Bonneville 200 MPH is completly independent of SCTA....?
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Stainless :cheers: :cheers:
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Pretty sure the cases rule came about in 2006 or 2007 so that is quite a bit less than 10 years.
When you start to accept the AMA records for qualifying towards the 200 club, then maybe i will feel differently.
I would be interested to know why you will accept FIM but not AMA?
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FIM and FIA are accepted when those records exceed like vehicle records that are already established 200 MPH Club records.
Why no AMA acceptance... re-read post 15... the last 2 lines would be my bet. They have yet to have their act together consistently.
The Bonneville 200 MPH Club is about speed... and integrity of the club and it's records.
Besides, like you said, they have their own club :cheers:
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The Bubs 201 club recognizes the FIM records and the AMA records. Would be nice if the powers that be could put aside their petty bickering and all follow one set of rules for every event that is for sure!
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The Bubs 201 club recognizes the FIM records and the AMA records. Would be nice if the powers that be could put aside their petty bickering and all follow one set of rules for every event that is for sure!
Dan,
To be fair please explain your relation to the bubs 201+ club..
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I am the sponsor for the Bubs 201 club. But all that means is I paid for the hats. That is where my role stops as i have no say in who is eligible or not. That is left up to the Bubs officials. If the Bonneville 200 club would recognize AMA records towards their stuff there would be no need to even have a Bubs 201 club IMO.
I am also the official water sponsor at Bubs But I have no control over whether it rains or not. ;)
So not really sure what you are trying to imply John?
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Dan..just wanted to make sure people knew your affiliation with the "club" hat giveaway thing..
My feeling is that most of the racers that set records in the AMA classes would not qualify for an SCTA class record in the same class. "most"
Stainless said it best in one of his earlier posts... :cheers:
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Hey, many thanks Stainless.............my grudge record is at least one record the SCTA/BNI can not take away from me and/or change the rules................
"Lest we forget"...............................................................
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Hey, many thanks Stainless.............my grudge record is at least one record the SCTA/BNI can not take away from me and/or change the rules................
"Lest we forget"...............................................................
:-D :cheers:
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The AMA does not allow the extensive partial streamlining you find on FIM and SCTA/DLRA bikes. This keeps the speeds down a bit in those very fast classes. Also, there was no AMA racing in the interval between the Earl Flanders days and BUB. A lot of records set with older and slower equipment were, and are, in the AMA book during the BUB years.
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The AMA does not allow the extensive partial streamlining you find on FIM and SCTA/DLRA bikes. This keeps the speeds down a bit in those very fast classes. Also, there was no AMA racing in the interval between the Earl Flanders days and BUB. A lot of records set with older and slower equipment were, and are, in the AMA book during the BUB years.
Yeah AMA seems to have forgotten about many of the records that were set along time ago and started out with nearly a new platform with not many records listed however many classes already had records and many faster than the newer records set at the first few events...sure would be sad to hear that a record you set in the 70s or 80s in the AMA was "beaten" by a new record that was slower machine many years later.
I love that Denis Manning got the BUB's speed trials up and going however many of us feel it won't be around much longer..congrats to all of the AMA record setters..I had some great runs and set some good records and met some great people.
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Talk about a records "mess-up"....SCTA/BNI allowed for a passenger in the sidecar from 1978 to 1987, no passenger allowed from 1987 on (thanks to Elmo)
however, did they retire the "passenger records".. no way.....1991 there was a sidecar streamliner class in the books, 1992 (with new rulers) they just dropped the class, did they retire the class...no way...................at least AMA/FIM retire a changed and dropped class and the records stay on the books.......
PS. Glad to hear John you liked racing the BUB event and if I recall you made some BIG dollars thanks to Denis Manning..............................................
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Hey John.
Took this from your post because I was about to make some future plans and this caught my eye. Is there anything you can or care to add to the following bit. You might save me from going in the wrong direction with a customer who I am suppose to set a game plan with this week. Any insight appreciated. Contact me off line if thats better. John Ritter vintageporting@gmail.com or 931-374-8164 Thanks.
Snipet of your comment
-I love that Denis Manning got the BUB's speed trials up and going however many of us feel it won't be around much longer
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Just curoiuos as to why the BUB speed trail won't be around much longer?
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If Denis stopped his involvement do you think the AMA would take it over? Or would would you take it over from Bubs?
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SO what are you implying John................I know you just love to imply............
NO BUB....give us some facts................................................
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I personally don't think Denis will be leaving the scene. Its in his blood. Plus the fact that the BUB meet stands alone, now run by Delvene, not Denis. Add that to the AMA interest, now calling it an AMA Grand National Event, add S&S's renewed interest in the Land Speed Game, along with some of the new event sponsors, and I think the BUB/AMA Land Speed Trials will be here for quite some time. We all love Delvene & her crew - they do a great job, & it keeps getting better every year.
Where else is there a Motorcycle Only Land Speed Event ? :-D
Not sayin we have anything negative about running cages & motorcycles at the same event on the salt, even though some of the cagers still look at the bikers as - just something in the way, taking up their time - just sayin - :-D
The AMA/BUB Grand National Motorcycle Land Speed Trials, the way I see it, are here to stay. IMMHO :cheers:
As a P.S. We also enjoy the asphalt/cement at Loring Maine & Wilmington Ohio. The cages there don't tare up that track surface for the Mcy's.
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Sure seems to be a lot of folks spreading rumors without anything to back it up. If Dennis was in such bad financial shape i doubt he would have ran the #7 streamliner this year as I know that cost a ton of money just to get it ready.
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Hey, answer my question first..as I mentioned if Denis/Bubs stopped running the event who would take it over? ???????? SCTA is an organization that is run by dozens of volunteers who work all the time to secure that the SCTA can continue another 65 years..if any one or several of the volunteers stepped away even at the same time the SCTA would continue..How long has the FIM been around? Along time and it's longevity is because it is not run by one person, Delvene and her staff work their butts off however it is costly and if it means keeping your business going or the racing event you have to choose?? Didn't Denis already close his other facility several years ago?
Running the Bubs and other events is very costly and all it takes is one good rain out to hurt the pocketbook to the point where the event could not happen.
I have not said he was getting out of the Bubs meets, I have asked who will if it were to happen? Wobbly?, Dan at NHRS?, Bob Bakker? the AMA?
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Your question was answered John - Denis no longer "runs" the event for a couple years now. Delvene & her crew do it all, along with a great number of dedicated Volunteers, just like the scta does. Many of the BUB Volunteers are repeat workers, year after year. It is a dedicated group.
So trying to accurately answer "what if" questions about this, becomes rhetorical and a waste of time - So here is one for ya - What if the current rate of Global Climate Change puts the salt under a couple inches of water for 9 or 10 months or even all year ? What if - what if - what if -
You can sleep well tonight John - the AMA/BUB speed trials will be around for quite some time -
Yeh - I'd bet on it. :cheers:
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Jim,
I hope you are right however I am not talking about just being around for "quite some time", I am talking decades...
When I say "Bub's" not sponsoring it or taking care of it that includes the employees at Bub's including Delvene etc. What happened last time the person spearheading the AMA left..? This is an honest question as I don't know..I do recall they sanctioned LSR racing on the salt and then stopped for a long time until Denis and his crew stepped in to get it going again.
Yes I have been to 5 of the Bub's events and also made good money by the generous sponsors that provided prize money in the past. It is great to have an all bike event and I hope it continues for "a long time to come" :cheers:
J
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OK.....so it is all about "what if's" that clears it all up....I fully understand it now?????
Regarding, the AMA sanctions for LSR in the last century, with our friend Earl Flanders...............that is another long story....(long before your time John)... but some of us are old enough to know the REAL story....and it has nothing to do about the AMA having lost interest in LSR............................................
WHAT IF???
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one thing we know for sure.....as facts....is:
that the AMA left the LSR scene for decades...
reapeared and largely adopted SCTA rules and started with a relatively
clean slate.....if there werent enough open records at SCTA there became:
an entire
new AMA book to allow folks to be "record setters"...
plus the added bonus (in addition to highly contested sidecar classes) the TRIKE classes...
plus FIM also started from a fresh slate, closely adopting the SCTA rules that have evolved....
creating another book of open records.....
I applaud them both for supporting lsr...and trying to evolve....
a potential side is that....if they leave again for sometime...well hopefully not....
now that all the sanctioning bodies have diverged some......it allows for alot more exclusivity....
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Maybe that fine looking Doctor from Harmony.com could be helpful in getting all the LSR rules the same for all of us......(not very likely)...............................
Example: The SCTA/BNI a couple of years ago made the mistake of asking me to sit in on one of their M/C rules meetings.....After the meeting one of their "officials" pulled me aside and noted that he did not want to see anything discussed on "that Landracing.com site" and that I should not tell anybody what was discussed........That "official is still active with SCTA/BNI....
Same rules.................Not likely with that kind of thinking....Hey, maybe down the road all LSR rules the same.....or maybe somewhat closer to each other.
PS. I declined any further in SCTA/BNI invitations.......................................
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one thing we know for sure.....as facts....is:
that the AMA left the LSR scene for decades...
reappeared and largely adopted SCTA rules and started with a relatively
clean slate.....if there weren't enough open records at SCTA there became:
an entire
new AMA book to allow folks to be "record setters"...
plus the added bonus (in addition to highly contested sidecar classes) the TRIKE classes...
plus FIM also started from a fresh slate, closely adopting the SCTA rules that have evolved....
creating another book of open records.....
I applaud them both for supporting lsr...and trying to evolve....
a potential side is that....if they leave again for sometime...well hopefully not....
now that all the sanctioning bodies have diverged some......it allows for a
lot more exclusivity....
Joe, :cheers:
Please stop making sense...it is hilarious to see someone post online they are the world record holder in @#$%^& class for AMA and it is much slower than SCTA (Salt) , El Mirage (Dirt) or ECTA (Pavement)...for perpetuity I would rather set records in an organization that has a bit more "patina"
When I raced at Maxton I met many great racers and volunteers and even saw them at other race venues in another country...When I raced at Bub's I again met many great racers however if I want a record to "stick" around I will spend my time, effort and money with either SCTA, DLRA, ECTA or FIM ...one thing about the AMA records I really do like is that there is a measurement process and it is done very thoroughly. As the bike count has increased I have heard about less runs per racer however that is probably on par with the SCTA and has nothing to do with the longevity of the AMA sanctioned racing..
Now back to work..
John
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John...hilarious..i was trying to post yet again when yours came up..
i try to keep talking in circles...alot of "facetiousness" in my posts...yet sincere attaboys at the same time...
I was going to say to Bob...if the sanctioning bodies "all LSR rules the same"... there would be alot less open records
and softer records to pursue ...i mean "exlusivity"...
ps i too enjoyed seeing some posts this year about "we just broke a 25 + yr old AMA record" on FB.....more power to everyone...!!!!
proving to me that there is alittle bit of "politician" in all of us...
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Our AMA 1350cc MPG record this year is faster than the SCTA 1350cc mpg record.
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Our AMA 1350cc MPG record this year is faster than the SCTA 1350cc mpg record.
Very cool, is that the same record you hold at Bonneville?
You're a 1%er, your AMA record is faster than SCTA..I have one of those also.. :cheers:
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Very cool, is that the same record you hold at Bonneville?
What??? :?
They are both records set at Bonneville. One SCTA, one AMA. Different bikes however and different riders as I am no longer associated with Aaron Wilson in any way.
You are correct that most of the AMA records are slower than the SCTA equivalent but there are a few that come to mind this year like Hiro Koiso and Jodi Perowitz that were blisteringly fast at Bubs. But they were probably running FIM, not AMA.
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That's what I meant..same record you hold at Bonneville/SCTA..set back nearly ten years ago with different rider and bike. Great job.
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hoping to run the same bike in fuel next year and get it close to 180 mph. My wife is my rider now and I hope to get her over 200 in the next 4 years on a Harley v-twin but we are taking it in small steps. Just don't want to rush her into those kinds of speeds quite yet. 170 this year was perfect!
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Yeah that's flying for sure, she is so small that will be good for sure..
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John N. is certainly pushing SCTA/BNI lately......but being as old as I am I can recall that John was far from happy a few years back with SCTA when he had some issues regarding a El Mirage meet
SCTA/BNI a org. with "patina".......................Really, thus that mean old and rusty...
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Bob,
I have raced many of the LSR venues in the same year, El Mirage, SCTA Bonneville, DLRA in Australia ECTA and Bonneville Bubs meet..yes in the same year..building, tuning, prepping, and even riding the bikes myself. I am not sure about your actual riding/racing any longer however with my work I no longer can make as many races and hit as many venues as I have in the past each year.
Also the last time I raced the AMA/Bubs event I was fortunate to win 10K however since then they have not been able to put up any financial awards like they were able to in the past and I was able to race other venues with money I earned at that event.
To let you know how little the AMA "records" mean to me I had just completed my only pass in the faired classes at the 2008 AMA event and made 5k, after I made it to the official at the end of the run and was told I was the fastest Partially Streamlined bike of the event 250+ mph and had won an additional 5k I was asked by the official when I would be ready to make my return run for the AMA National record? I said to him "F" the AMA record, I am here for the money.
I got on the officials FM radio and told Tom B it was me and asked for permission to ride back up the course, he locked down the track and gave me permission to ride back up the track. As I said the AMA records to me are not anywhere as enduring as the SCTA records.
The Bubs people, volunteers, AMA Ken, Drew and his Crew, Delvene, Pipi AKA Linnea and others are great and I am happy to have participated at that event for 5 years in a row. Also thank you for sponsoring the sidecar classes, I only wish I could have brought that "wheel on a steek" to win your money as well.
Night Bob.
J
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The level of douche in that post is amazing.
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Hey John, you ever think of running for Congress? :-D Dean
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I would vote for him...............He is still my HERO...............
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The level of douche in that post is amazing.
He is Noonan!! what more needs to be said.
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Hey I tell it the way it is, if you don't like it or have other beliefs that's fine. At the end of the day we all as LSR enthusiasts are a very small group all over the World. As long as we continue to persue our goals whether for records or personal bests it keeps many people come back year after year.
Many seem to overlook what AMA did because they didn't know what happened in the past, as Bob said SCTA took out the sidecar classes with passengers. Imagine having set a record in the 70's in AMA LSR only to see the orginisation close the LSR part and decades later see that the started up racing again and nearly started with a clean slate. "Records" for everyone.
As I said, I like both however for the future of records and record keeping SCTA has done a better job.
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It certainly hurts me to note that my HERO John N. is incorrect.....................
The BUB event when they started 10 years ago DID NOT start with a clean sheet regarding AMA records.............They have been at it now for 10 years and there are still 1960 and 1970 records on the book..........................
5-50c.c.
7-100c.c.
1-125c.c.
4-175c.c.
4-250c.c.
8-350c.c.
7-500c.c.
4-650c.c.
5-750c.c.
5-1000c.c.
3-1350c.c.
10-2000c.c.
5-3000c.c. Some of these records are shown to have been set in the 1960
we have been running against these records for 10 years now at the BUB Meet
and the above are still on the books.....certainly not a start with a "clean sheet"
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Bob, yes in most cases however some racers were told they set an open record however there was a record set in the 70's in the same classes, I am sure record keeping was hard to sort out after AMA bailed on LSR racing. Hopefully they will continue to sanction the event forever and that it continues. It give the bike racers a place of their own and are not made to feel like second class citizens by the SCTA (yes I said it)
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Regarding, second class citizens....actually the SCTA/BNI has adapted well to having M/C's on their program (yes, I said it)..............I first ran a M/C at the 1954 meet............all the cars ran first and if there was still time on the program the bikes got to go............much better today (there I said it again)
Also regarding the AMA leaving LSR at the end of the 1970's.....there is a whole lot more to that story........Only Jack Dolan and us other "old" guys know what!!!!!!!!!
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My little AMA record book from 2008 is on the table right next to me. There are all sorts of old records in almost all classes, many, many, more old records than new ones, and there are not a lot of open classes. Vesco, Munro, Riley, Rayborn, Campos, Angel, etc. They are all there. As mentioned earlier, some things said on this thread are a bit far from what we see and remember.
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Well time to pack for the AIMExpo show ....take care...we can chat later...hey Bakker do you still need those 750 BMW pistons.?
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Yes, John, we still need those high comp. BMW pistons.......Bill Becker is getting it all together..............we may be looking at as many of 12 to 16 pistons.....................have a good show.................
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for those of you who were at Bubs 2013 do any of you remember a guy on a Honda 500cc pushrod Hawk who was running in the PPF and I think MPF class? I thought he set 1 or 2 records this year but I do not see them in the new records. Anybody know what the deal with that is?
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I can't remember the name.............He was next to us along with his uncle on a HD drag-bike...............Each time he ran he said he had a new record............ran in 4 classes............all about 98 to 102 mph.
I expect some serious challenges from a new competitor.
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for those of you who were at Bubs 2013 do any of you remember a guy on a Honda 500cc pushrod Hawk who was running in the PPF and I think MPF class? I thought he set 1 or 2 records this year but I do not see them in the new records. Anybody know what the deal with that is?
Dan,
Not a "Hawk" , but a CX500, I think. Is this the guy?
Team 507 Mark Hultstrand 507 500-M-PF Honda 104.052
Team 507 Mark Hultstrand 954 500-P-PF Honda 100.096
He's in the new record book. Although, I don't see how he could run in P-PF (Production,Pushrod,Fuel, or maybe it Production, Production, Fuel????)
P.S. It took me a while to get thru this thread. I thought I was reading about "BUB rule questions", but it seems to have become somewhat compromised. Maybe Slim should just combine all the "rule questions" into one forum. There would be some interesting interplay on that one!
I don't run in BUB instead of SCTA for any particular reason other than it's not convenient for me to go to Speedweeks. But in case anybody cares, I think BUB's and FIM records are the only true "two way" records. And my records exceed the SCTA records in 500 A-PG by 10mph, and 500 APS-PG by 20 mph. I don't mean to brag, but I think if BUB does continue, many more SCTA records will be exceeded as time goes by.
Tom
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I looked in the records but did not see the new records he set. Where did you see them?
Yes I agree PPF is the most ridiculous class i have ever heard of but they seem to be allowing it!!!
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Dan,
Second page, about a 1/3 of the way down, Team 507, under his name. Records are listed alphabetically by last name, I think.
Tom
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My bad. I was looking at an old page of the records.
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Haven't looked -- but listing records by the last name of the holder seems a bit odd. The archaic SCTA lists them in class order. What an idea!
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they will be listed by class when they are put in the official record book. These are just the records that were set this year awaiting certification.
Please don't try to turn this into something that is isn't!
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FIM and FIA are accepted when those records exceed like vehicle records that are already established 200 MPH Club records.
Why no AMA acceptance... re-read post 15... the last 2 lines would be my bet. They have yet to have their act together consistently.
The Bonneville 200 MPH Club is about speed... and integrity of the club and it's records.
Besides, like you said, they have their own club :cheers:
Can you explain to me how FIM classes are converted to SCTA style class designation when looking at 2 club mins? There doesn't seem to be a direct link because FIM doesn't have a designation for what fuel/gas you run.
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Jeff, what class would you like converted... :|
The 200 MPH Club works on record speeds set at Bonneville. The Board will look at FIM records to determine if that record met the requirements for membership. I know that a record set at the Bub last year was accepted by the Club and the new member will be inducted at the SpeedWeek Banquet just like every other member that gets in after the Banquet. She will already be wearing her hat, that comes as soon as the record is accepted by the club, just like at any other meet. Why not instantly? The club is not represented at the Bub Meet so the prospective member must submit their record for acceptance. The FIM does not award records immediately like the SCTA so it takes time. The club hates to give someone a hat, and then take it back, it has happened... :-(
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Stainless, PM sent