Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Sumner on November 11, 2005, 12:23:14 PM
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I'm wondering if it matters to you who certifies a speed? Say BNI, SCTA, FIM, ECTA, etc.. Not to pick on you, Malcolm, but it seems you don't think much of a record unless it is under FIM operating rules. Others may pick other organizations.
To me if any of these organizations say a vehicle goes such and such speed I'll take it for what it is worth under the conditions that organization has to work.
BNI is on the salt. 260 mph over a measured mile after a 2 to 4 mile run-up is the measure there and you have to average the speed for a total mile not 132 feet or some other distance. If someone can do that on a bike I'm very impressed.
At say ECTA running on pavement you have, I believe 1 mile to get up to speed and then a short speed trap and then not very much room to stop in. Get up to 260 mph there under those conditions and I'm also very impressed. The speeds can be the same, but the conditions and the setup of the bike is probably totally different. They both run 260 and I'm impressed by both.
Do I need FIM there to certify it or to have the meet run to "their" standards to make it more official? For me no.
What is your opinion?
c ya, Sum
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All I do is point out that if there is a claim for a 'World Record' or an 'International record' then it should be set in accordance with operating rules that all around the world can comply with. Since 1911 for cars that has meant two way runs in 1 hour. For the bikes since WW1 two runs within two hours and only minimal maintenance between them is the rule.
I have never expressed any negative view on the accuracy or credibility of records set to local or national standards (mostly in the US). If you want a Bonneville record then you run to SCTA/BNI rules on the salt. You want an El Mirage record - ditto on the dirt. If you run pavement then ECTA provide the events for you. If you happen to be in Australia you run to DLRA rules. If you come to Britain you run MSA rules for cars and ACU rules for bikes. If you want to be recognised in an International class anywhere (and that means without restrictions on altitude) in the World, you run FIA or FIM.
If you want to compare one record speed with another then how the attempt was made becomes important. An avreage speed for 1 mile cannot be compared with an average speed for a 1320 foot timing trap or 132 foot timing trap.
My only concern is that under SCTA/BNI operating rules there has been an attempt that it seems (I was not present) would not meet with FIA rules, yet a US team wants to claim an 'International record'. And that setting themseleves as the so called 'World Authority' the SCTA/BNI then will not recognise record speeds set anywhere other than Bonneville USA.
If you want a World Motorcycle record then you can run FIM at the Bub Meeting or on private time anywhere else, and you will observed to ensure that you meet with the record operating rules of that organisation.
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Bonneville and SCTA have been "magic" words since the early '50's for me. So I think the records that are made there are the most imortant.
FIM seems remote to me even though I followed motorcycle and car road races in Europe for a long time before it was popular here. To a European or Brit the pick would probably be the FIM.
The lakes racing here is mostly home built cars and the FIM seems to be mostly factory endeavors. It's hard, if not impossible to compare the two or any of the other associations. I'd like to be evolved in all of them.
The LSR in Australia is going to put a new international face on dry lake racing. Good luck to all that are able to go there!
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Whatever the sanctioning body the land speed racing world should be united in avoiding or distancing itself from 'attempts' that do not use independant timing methods and track surveying & operation observation. The Budweiser attempt is an example of a team trying to prove themselves by circumventing any independant standards.
To me this means no on vehicle GPS speed measurements either.
And as for 'made up' records such as that for a certain F1 car - then the LSR people should not get involved unless there are written rules for anyone else to adhere to.
And just in case you are interested, there are published rules for running a milk float!
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The sponsoring organization is of interest only if you are trying to compare records set in two different places. A record set at Bonneville has the handicap of 4200 feet of elevation and traction like wet mush. The Texas Mile is at 300 feet and paved. Better air and more traction equals more speed.
The rules for each organization also make a difference depending on the restrictions placed on the bike and the way it is run.
But no matter what, if a 1650cc bike runs 246.818 under any circumstances, then hey buddy, beat that!
I wonder about the accuracy of any of these records. Is it really a mile? The standard for all measurements it the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and The European Committee for Standardization (CEN).
Are measurements traceable to those organizations? Does AMA or FIM certification for the measured mile, the measured CC or any other measurement really stand up?
When the Hubble space telescope was put into service they quickly learned that the optics were off. Despite measurements to the billionths and full traceability, a check fixture for the main mirror was put in backwards and nobody caught it. The fix was to do a space walk and put "glasses" on it to correct it.
So I wonder track to track and year to year what the accuracy really is?
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Like anything else it is different on So Cal.
In the US a "Milk Float" is a "Milk Truck".
You see, it's the same thing , only different.
"Don't date out of your species." 8)
You suspect I have more to say on the subject?
You go first and lets see how far you get.
130 views and 7 votes ao 8A pst. REMARKABLE !
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The measurement of a mile and kilometre is defined by the FIM and the FIA in their operating rules. If you a running on a track the record line position is defined so that each bend is accounted for. Now what do you folks do in SCTA/BNI?
Can't see how the accuracy of the length of the timing trap makes much difference to the whole operating procedure ......... but for most attempts that I have organised anywhere in the world (Bonneville Salt, Tunisian Salt, UK Airfiels, Nevada highway 93A etc...) I have paid for the independant surveyor, for his skills and his report, along with confirmation that the equipment has visited a national measurement lab for calibration.
When it comes to timing, the clocks have to be certified and the timekeepers are recognised by the governing body as being competent to use automatic kit - just like lsr all around the world.
Not sure if this poll will take us any further forward? It should matter to ALL of us who sanctions a speed record - fair, accurate, repeatable, independant - but what that body is called only matters when you look at the operating procedures and then give a name to the fastest speeds being achieved.
JackD - They may be milk trucks in the USA, but the rules say they must have electric traction drive that is powered by batteries.
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All I do is point out that if there is a claim for a 'World Record' or an 'International record' then it should be set in accordance with operating rules that all around the world can comply with. Since 1911 for cars that has meant two way runs in 1 hour. For the bikes since WW1 two runs within two hours and only minimal maintenance between them is the rule.
I would have to say that the above is the FIA/FIM rule. BNI was over the same measured mile in opposite directions until safety ruled that out for a while and probably should have ruled it out permanently unless the salt really improves. So then with two runs in the same direction over the same measured mile a lot of records fell. Anyone in the world is welcome on the salt, so I have no problem with a record being set there being called a world record knowing it was under BNI's conditions for a record and it is acknowledged as a world record under their rules.
When Teague set his 409 mph record he almost didn't have the money to pay for FIA or FIM certification. Now if he wouldn't have and still ran the same speed which was faster that anyone had run before and on the very same clocks is it fair to say he didn't set a world record?
If someone sets a record under FIA/FIM standards I have no problem with that being a "world record" an so stated under their rules.
I think when Joe Public hears Green, Burkland, Teague, etc. goes so fast in the news to them all that is important is the speed. They don't have a clue about all of this that we are talking about.
I know what you are saying about comparing apples to apples under what condition the record was set at, but even there you have a lot of variables, a lot of which depends on how much money you have to spend, to where and how you do those two runs in one hour. And so you might have a hard time comparing a new record set to an old record that was at a completely different place under completely different circumstances.
Nothing is perfect, nothing ever will and I can bet all the money I have, not much, that things will change.
c ya and thanks for your thoughts,
Sum
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Interesting topic this!! I feel some 'deja vu'.
BNI speed against Bonneville speed; no comparison in my view. Measured mile against a short distance.
That doesn't mean that a speed set at Maxton has no value, but you can't get away with the fact that it's not over a mile.
I'm sure that it's very challenging with frantic acceleration and short distance to stop, as opposed to Bonneville where smoothness is required to reach top speed, and where there is more room to slow down.
Now, regarding a BNI 2-way record and a FIM/FIA record, what the difference? Money!
If you want to pay to register your attempt and obtain an official from these bodies to come and 'observe' the proceeding, it will cost you more, with the satisfaction of having your name on their record list if you are successful and comply to their procedures. Some people prefer to mirror the procedures, run BNI and spend the money on their engine.
Sumner is absolutely right when he says that the average punter can't see the difference. Only the purists object!!
Some of the BNI records were set at higher speed than some FIA/FIM records, this is where it's funny. Some folks choose the easy option and challenge the lower speed, claiming they are after an 'official' record.
A complete waste of time if you ask me.
An added problem is that these international bodies fail to administer properly their record list (FIA) or change suddenly the rules (FIM).
When asked why, they mumble that the 'other' record is not official, etc...
A Bonneville record, BNI or other will always get respect.
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I got it from someone that the FIA would have been demanding ?8000 (or $12,000 maybe) to 'officiate' during a private record attempt at Bonneville this summer. That doesn't include course preparation, medical support, timekeepers, track survey and so on. My source wants to remain anonymous. I can't believe it myself!
No wonder that, with these charges, people prefer to run BNI!
Regarding Sumner comment about Al Teague, I couldn't agree more.
What still surprises me though is that much is still talked about Al's 1-mile record at 409.978mph (if I am correct), but almost everyone forget the 1-kilo record he set at the same time at 425.050mph. Does the kilo record counts for nothing then?
Al Teague typifies the Bonneville racers: guys who do things themselves and progress through the ranks years after years. I have press cuttings from Al dating from 73, showing him with a Chrysler turbo engine roadster, then he built his lakester, which he converted to a streamliner to finally get the FIA record after years of trying. When he got that, he didn't go home, he kept coming back to Bonneville every year with different engines and got more records. A racer in the hot-rod tradition, and there are many like him at Bonneville.
Compared to that, most of the European efforts have been 'one-day-wonders' or failures. If they get a record, they go home and brag about it for the rest of their life, if they fail, they whinge for ever, or argue about rules, protocol and so on...
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If I wish to set an International or World Land Speed Record at a venue other than Bonneville I can only do so under the governance of the FIA or FIM. The SCTA/BNI do not want to know me and my bid. There are racers from the US who think such alternative sites are "suicidal" though. Me thinks that there is a case of "one course mind" to be dealt with here.
If I want to set an International or World record at Bonneville then like Vesco, Teague, Rummerfield, Wheeler, White and so on .... I may feel that the presence of the FIA or FIM makes my effort more understanable around the whole world. If not why did these and many other American racers want one or other of these bodies there?
Rosemeyer - your costings for private time FIA/ACCUS/SCCA/USAC attendance at an International record attempt are wrong, the sum you were quoted is low (unless I got a bad deal!). Spread amongst a number of racers such as at the Bub meeting the costs are bearable but not 'cheap'.
"How fast do you want to go - how much do you have to spend!"
Also, if you have to ask an American audience about such French things as a Kilometre record being recognised ahead of a mile record then be prepared for some abuse. I find it amusing how many racers (Brits are included here) want their mile speeds to be a record rather than the often quicker kilometre speed.
Of course two way runs to a central timing trap shortens the available acceleration distance, but that means that you may need to look away from Bonneville for FIA and FIM attempts - which of course for many US racers will not happen. Lets see how the US bikers report on Lake Gairdner and any records established or broken there.
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Rosemeyer - would you care to put names to the European "one day wonders" who have either broken records and are bragging or who have failed in their bids and are whinging? Name an individual who has argued about the rules?
Only by giving names in public would such statements be worth considering.
Remember too that not everyone can travel to an overseas venue year after year to increase their own record, in the manner described by you for Al Teague. Most European teams can only make one long distance trip for any one record.
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Malcolm UK.
-Without wanting to take anything away from their record achievements, the name Campbell -father and son- comes to mind when it comes to braggart or whinger. Malcolm C. - a publicity seeker if there was one - never stop using his record career to obtain some sort of advantage and kept lobbying politicians at home to get included in the Honour List until he got a knighthood. His vanity made him insufferable to his contemporaries - "That show off" said John Cobb.
After his mishap at Bonneville, his son cursed the venue for ever, although the opinion of his entourage was that he had accelerated too quickly. Unable to accept his mistake, he blamed the track instead, "Too short". Because of his obstinatation in not running here ever again, CN7 never reached his true potential (to the dissapointment of Ken Norris in particular).
-The recent spat from the ABB e=motion team about the validity of their competitor's record is a recent example of sour grapes. Buckeye Bullet DID reach 272mph average for an international record under FIA rules (1 hour turn-around) and 315mph for a national record under BNI rules (4 hour turn around), but they didn't bother to get it sanctionned by FIA. Refusing to accept this, amid great publicity the e=motion team prefered to target White Lightning inferior speed, although even Pat Rummerfield acknowledges Buckeye Bullet as the record holder now. At the first hurdle, they spat their dummy and put their car up for sale!
-Bad idea to quote Vesco and Nolan in the same breath with FIA if you want to argue your case: Don didn't even receive his record certificate when he was alive and Rick White's name was still not on the FIA record list last time I checked!
-Checked again with my source. The FIA quote was ?8000. Fees must be depending on the length of time booked, I would have thought.
-The kilometre was certainly an French thing originally -thanks to good old Napoleon-, but the metric system has been adopted almost universally now (even in Australia and South Africa I believe), and the FIA quote MPH and KM/H for speeds and miles and kilo for distances. More important, I was under the impression (correct me if I am wrong), that in the case of an outright world speed record, the highest of the mile OR kilo speed average would be taken in consideration. Al Teague's case, he barely broke Goldenrod's record over the mile, but surely smashed it over the kilo.
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Bravo!!!!
DW
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In view of the number of times that Malcolm Campbell set the record at ever higher speeds we will have to disagree about a 'one day wonder'. The person may not have been as racers are today but that was how those with substantial income often presented themselves. Is this risky endeavour of speed record breaking meant also to be a popularity contest? Personalities differ and as often happens there are some people that are not universally liked. However the number of record speeds achioeved has to be acknowledged.
As to the son, you will know that Donald involved British industry and that led to the 'Indy Patade' operation at Bonneville at the 1960 event. Then he crashed the car through a combiantion of inexperience and possibly the affects of his breathing system. He then went to Australia and inspite of the weather stayed at the task to break the record. Racing drivers the world over have blamed "the track" as a reason for not achieving their goals.
As to the ABB e=motion 'recent spat' as you call it that arises because of the difference that is argued time and again on this and other forums as to whose rules and operations you run to. At least both teams have run to somebodies rules. If, as that team (Primetime) were, you are aiming at the FIA record then that is the speed that will be publicised as the target record. Whether the driver of the current record has an opinion, his speed remains on the FIA list. If you hold an FIA licence you are not in a position to take a view contrary to that of your governing body.
The driver of the Buckeye Bullet has said that on each run made at Bonneville the car was push started. To my information he did not describe that the BNI runs were any different. Not being on the salt myself I am not in a position to confirm the accuracy of this.
After 5 years of a project the reaction to five non-starts (after a successful test run) was to stop the project and sell the car in its condition at that time. Upon reflection as I reported here and on the landspeed list, they have repaired the car, will carry out further testing with different gearing and may return to challenge the FIA records at a later date - but to offend many here it will probably still not be on the salt flats.
Once again when it comes to FIA ratification the team are represented by their National governing body when dealing with the FIA records Commission. So the late Don Vesco was let down by an American organisation, but writers choose only to blame the French part of the process. The records Commission is chaired by an American!
Just for accuracy Al Teague was never directly challenging the Summers Brothers Goldenrod record - Al was in the supercharged class, Bob in the unsuprecharged. As to publicising the faster speed - that is for the record holder to bring to the attention of the public - the FIA list both. The Gabelich record in Blue Flame over the kilo was a similar situation, exploited only by the Sinsheim Museum, who kept the kilo speed record well publicised by the banner behind the rocket car. It was only in 1997 that this record fell to Andy Green.
There is nothing written down that says the higher speed record takes precedent in the car world. Al Teague had the mile record as well as the kilo and his audience was not told about the speed over the lesser distance. Who the governing body is makes no difference to this.
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No one, not even DW, has answered the International problem that the SCTA/BNI bring to 'world records' - will they sanction any attempt, other than at Bonneville, run to the BNI rules?
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Personally, I don't see an "International" problem, run your deal the SCTA/BNI can run theirs. Depending under whose sanction/rules you race thats the record you have.
If you need to set a "Worlds" record then pick the the fastest, where is the challenge of running against a slower speed then claiming a record? I don't a bloody fig about FI...anything.
Hows that for a response?
DW
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Every barn yard has it's own Rooster, each proclaiming their superiority as far as they can crow.
They are worthless until you can profit from them.
In the end, they all taste pretty much the same. 8)
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Dan - as I have been told the story the SCTA/BNI does want to place its International two way records alongside those of the FIA and perhaps even the FIM. It is the reports and articles on the SCTA role as the World Authority that have driven the discussion.
The desire of the SCTA to adjudicate on International records can only be valid if the operating methods are identical to those of the FIA or FIM and that the SCTA are prepared to sanction attempts anywhere in the US and then anywhere in the world. If the SCTA only want to be the arbiter of mile and kilo records on Bonneville then we will never agree. Inviting all nationalities into your 'playground' does not make the activity "International".
And I do see that as a problem with the press/media/writers and between land speed record breakers and the confusion does not enhance the sport.
Perhaps we can agree that there have to be some rules in place!
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Confusion is a major part of the problems with tire companies.
Tires are the limiting factor for many classes.
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Malcolm
I don?t know what your problem is and why you keep baggin on the scta-bni for claiming ?world record status? for our records. The facts are??. We have the fastest shit in the world! And if you want to drag your junk to Russia and pay some guy?s expenses to verify your record (that?s if you actually get a record) you can call it whatever you want. We don?t need some uppity guy comin? over here to tell us we have the fastest shit in the world ?Hell we know it!? And until someone can break it elsewhere ?WE ARE THE HOME OF WORLD RECORDS? We offer a WORLD FINALS that has been open to anyone in the world, bring something over here and play in our playground so we can shut your whinny ass up.
Yours in sport
Kent Riches
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"as I have been told the story the SCTA/BNI..."
Malcom,
The key word here is "...story...".
As I have stated before I am not a board member. I have been in that spot and do not feel the need to do it again, I defer to persons smarter than I. Any conversation about record validty, methods of measurement, etc. do not concern me in any manner what so ever.
I'm out of this deal...
DW
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Malcolm.
With the last interventions from Dan Warner and Ken Riches, you should get the message by now.
For a long time you have been arguing about SCTA/BNI's decision to run their show at Bonneville, and "why they do this", "why they do that", and defending FIA like if you had shares.
These guys don't want to know about your 'expertise' in record breaking and your so-called experience in "organising attempts anywhere in the world (Bonneville?, Tunisia, UK and Nevada)". If you like to pay money to the FIA to get the right to play, that's your problem. If you choose silly places to run because 'it isn't Bonnie' OK. How many records did you get? Was it money well spent?
There may be only one Gospel, but many churches where to pray.
Bonneville, the SCTA/BNI, USFRA and a whole bunch of guys over there know more about records than you ever will: they break them while you still argue about your interpretation of the rules!
They put up a magnificent show several times a year, get some serious speed and break records. That's good enough for me. The last thing they want is for some jackass from England to tell them how to organise things!
Regarding e=motion, there is no use nit-picking if the Bullet has been pushed, or not been pushed. If e=motion wants to make a point, why no try to beat their speed; then we will talk about it. Instead, it's the big sulk!
Also, why targetting the lowest speed. If you want to climb the highest mountain, you don't choose Kilimanjaro, you tackle the Everest.
Like Ken Riches said: just turn up there and show what you can do.
In other words, PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
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Yeh what he said! er.... I mean what WE said!
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The 'winner' in an debate is not the one who SHOUTS his points of view the loudest or tells the person with a differing view to SHUT UP. And name calling does not make any difference to a viewpoint either.
If you don't want to read a point of view from me then hit delete .....
Now that many are gone ........... I will let you know that I have no worries about the USA racing association claiming records as 'World' status as they have done for years. I have never expressed a view on how Bonneville events are run, except in the case of the so called 'International records' that are meant to be the BNI equivalent of the FIA methods. I have expected 94 years of two-way runs over the mile and kilo to be adhered to when looking at the Worlds fastest speeds with one hour turnaround for cars and 2 for bikes and unaided starts.
The story about the SCTA 'taking over' the International records has been in articles printed worldwide on behalf of an award winning American author. If the content is 'stories' to US racers then perhaps I should have no concerns. My European clients will do their thing and the Bonneville racers will do theirs. None of my clients have ever targetted the 'lower speed', most have been pushing to be the outright fastest.
What does matter is that FIA records are set unaided - the technology in an electric vehicle makes a push start very advantageous to its ultimate speed. The two-way runs limits the acceleration distance for all racers if there is a space 'problem' and thus cuts top speed too.
Apart from holding a licence with the FIA symbol on it I do not have shares in that organisation.
I have enjoyed Bonneville events and Maxton events as a spectator and meeting and talking with the racers. I have learnt a great deal but at times we do not agree. American racers have visited with me in England too! So I need no cheap put down remarks about me and my understanding of what happens on the salt or concrete, I appreciate what everyone does, why they do it and the risks involved.
And I didn't open the debate this time either ..... but I am sure Kent and Rosemeyer will now shut it.
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Being the occasional insomniac that i am, well maybe small business syndrome is closer, every day you wake up and figure out what you are going to kill and eat so you don't starve, LOL.. Anyway there is an interesting point that has been made by accident I suspect. The venue brings it's own challenges to any record set. Every one that climbed Everest climbed the same mountain. Hitting the most home runs in one ball park is not the same as another if the ball parks are different as well. Why does this not work in LSR. If I set fast time at Daytona what does this have to do with Sebring? When you change the venue you change the challenges. if you are going for the ultimate speed then why not a 20 mile concrete runway in thin air? The turbos will bring their own atmosphere and the thin air ought to cut down on the aero drag. This all may be true or not but the point is the challenge at one place is traction and another might be air density or stopping distance. It really does not matter. If you are going to conduct any scientific test the first thing you do is eliminate any variables hat might affect the results. If i have a car and run it at 2 different places then I would expect 2 different speeds unless the places were identical in all respects. In essence all performances are localized. Fastest at El Mirage is not the same as Muroc or Maxton or Tunesia or Ormond beach or Daytona or Australia...
I personally trust any reputable sanctionng body to survey the track and measure the times correctly. You can't really argue stopping distances and anything else to do with track length when the length is not defined only the measured portion. That leaves basically the rules concerning turn around times and vehicle specifics. From a cursory look at the FIA regs it seems that they are a subset of the SCTA classes in that the FIA cars can fit pretty closely into a SCTA class but the ere are classes of SCTA vehicles that don't fit into an FIA class and make any sense. To me that makes the FIA a subset of the SCTA classes. The only major differences is the allowance of technology by FIA that is not cuuently allowed by SCTA/BNI. I say currently only because technology always creeps in no matter how much resistance is put up so eventually they will be the same. personally the only classes of vehicles that really interest me are the ones that have the fewest restrictions mostly special contruction, though i have a soft spot for those 'sportsliners' er i mean modifed sports and a lot of the bike classes as well.
Basically what i am trying to get across is this. I trust the surveryors and timers at any major venue. No two venues are the same ever. Even the same place is different at different times of the year. So all performance is localized. There are many measures of performance. One way two way 12 hr 24 hr they are all vaild and all have merit in their own way. All that leaves is officiating and record keeping. Every country has more officials and politicians than they need and all are of similar ilk in my mind. Sorry if that offends but just a personal point of view. Most are pretty much interchangable from my seat, all different yet all the same at the end of the day.
So at the end of the day what you really have is this.
The fastest speed of X type vehicle set at this particular venue under these atmospheric condtions as interpreted by this official/group to be legally fitting the current rules on this day. All else is subject to change and certainly will. At the end of the day if the fastest horse happens to be in your barn it is still the fastest horse at least for that day..
Dave
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That is what I said "RO0STERING". :roll:
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yeah i know that but offered the long version for those that don't want to or can't read in between the lines..LOL
Dave
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Basically what i am trying to get across is this. I trust the surveyors and timers at any major venue. No two venues are the same ever. Even the same place is different at different times of the year. So all performance is localized. There are many measures of performance. One way two way 12 hr 24 hr they are all valid and all have merit in their own way. All that leaves is officiating and record keeping. Every country has more officials and politicians than they need and all are of similar ilk in my mind. Sorry if that offends but just a personal point of view. Most are pretty much interchangeable from my seat, all different yet all the same at the end of the day.
So at the end of the day what you really have is this.
The fastest speed of X type vehicle set at this particular venue under these atmospheric conditions as interpreted by this official/group to be legally fitting the current rules on this day. All else is subject to change and certainly will. At the end of the day if the fastest horse happens to be in your barn it is still the fastest horse at least for that day..
Dave
I agree totally with what you are saying as this was the point I was trying to make with my post that posed the "poll question". Once you are given a speed that a racer turned only you can decide the value of that speed and be impressed or not.
I'm wondering if it matters to you who certifies a speed? Say BNI, SCTA, FIM, ECTA, etc..
The above quote was the question, not which organization someone likes or dislikes the most. I guess maybe I didn't do a very good job of wording the question and the poll options :oops: .
I have enjoyed all the comments though and I'm sure even though some voices were raised we are all on the same team, maybe just have some different perspectives :).
c ya, Sum
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This is some funny shit!! I was bored so I read some . Some people just like to argue. WHAT EVER!!!!!
Later, Ro
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Ro
this site is a blast...... u can bag on people till your typing finger hurts and then drink a beer with them at the races. come on and join in.....
Kent
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Apples are apples, oranges are oranges. there is no way that they are the same.
Similarly the sanctioning body for World records is the organisation that used to be known as the "association international des Automobile Clubs Recconus2 or translated into English "The International association of recognised automobile Clubs", the name was in French because the first car races and the first record attempts were in France. this organisation later renamed itself the "Federation International Automobile" ot "International Automobile Association" or FIA for short. they have a set of rules that is recognised all over the world. For motorcycles there is a similar organisation the "Federation International des Motorcycles" (FIM). i may not have the names absolutely correct but I'm sure you get the gist.
Then we have the South California Timing Association who time events at Bonneville Salt Flats, Utah, USA and maybe elsewhere. They have their own rules and classes.
So where's the problem? There is no question about the accuracy of either organisation's measurements or about their integrity.
But surely only one of them can honestly claim that they are sanctioning World records.
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D Type
Problem is that one of them (FIA) wants a monopoly and in our 'global world', you should allow competition!
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Big D
Your wrong. For the most part we live in a free society and there is room for more than one "World Record Organization." Why, we have the AMA & the USFRA too! Any "Real Racer" is free to make their own choice as to World Record recognition. After all, FIA, FIM are all able to come to America and organize record attempts. There is nothing stopping them ... is there?
I'm married to a European, happily I might add, but your old world, elitist attitude is exactly why for the most part we don't care what you do with your records. That's what really bothers your kind isn't it? That your records are marginalized. Real records are set here and will be for a long time to come. Throughout Euro history all the great ones came here to set "World Records." Deny that and you repudiate your own motorsport history.
By the way, it was actually a German that invented the first working car not the French. After all, no Frenchmen ever passes up an opportunity to salute a BMW!
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"D"
yo dude your forgetting an important thing, the FIM or FIA don't run land speed racing events!!!! and they NEVER HAVE!!!!! they are a small minded elitist group that for a fee will sanction your event, whatever it is(car, buss, scateboard)!!!!! The SCTA ONLY holds land speed events and has done so continually for the last 50+years. So in a logical persons mind, one would think that the SCTA would be the experts in that specific field. If you want true credibility in claiming a land speed record, come play with us.
peace and grease
Kent Riches
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Whilst the FIA do not organise land speed racing events, they have attended and adjudicated on enough speed attempts in the last 94 years to ensure that land speed records, set by the fastest classes of vehicles, have all followed an identical independent set of operating rules.
Can't see how the FIA can be exercising a "monopoly" when the SCTA have run their world record events untroubled (except by the weather - that must be the Europeans fault then!) for 58 years on the salt and on the dirt before that, for the variety of cars that their racers build.
As the SCTA have many World Records and the FIA have only two (if you do not count the closed course speed record) I do not see any great European influence on the SCTA. As the SCTA do not accept thrust power we are just looking at one record that both acknowledge as the fastest ever wheeldriven.
Now everyone will be wondering why there have been so many postings on this and like topics since the internet and the land speed list and landracing.com have allowed racers to chat amongst themselves from anywhere in the world?
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The fastest vehicles always seek FIA FIM recognition.
Go figure !
More "Roostering" I suspect. :roll:
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Am I the only one on this thread who hasn't his convictions dictated by his country of residence?
Kent Riches and Salty Blaster are absolutely right: FIA and FIM governing from Europe don't want to run record events, but they want to keep control of the results: sanction, certificates, lists, etc...
What is suspect is that they don't do a very good job of it. While the FIA pays great attention to outright world records (Breedlove, Arfons, Gabelich, Noble, Green and so on) and does its best to be associated with the publicity, anything else like an international class record is basically ignored, mostly if it broken during a club meeting in America -SCTA/BNI. In most cases, they pocket the money, and ignore their statutory duties -to provide certificate, amend list of records, etc...What interest them are the prestigious events!
Which for an American land speed racing audience must look like the ultimate form of contempt if not downright fraudulent. No wonder that for American racers FIA and FIM are perceived as a 'small minded elitist group' out of touch with reality. They are distant (both geographically and attitude wise), unapproachable, and full of their own importance. That's what causes the divide.
FIA and FIM are about everything on 4 & 2 wheels: safety, tourism, road traffic, GPs, Championships, F1, F2, rallies, sportscars, enduros, X-cross, etc... etc...
Opposed to that, there are organising clubs who do all the 'graft' work and are not recognised important enough to administer records.
To quote Kent Riches, "SCTA ONLY holds land speed events ... for the last 50 years". That's enough for credentials, isn't it?
For most Europeans who have any international or world record ambitions, they MUST go through FIA or FIM, because we DO NOT have in Europe any organising clubs like SCTA/BNI, USFRA, ECTA, DLRA, etc... We do NOT HAVE land speed racing organising clubs. This is what dictates their attitude and why people like Malcolm UK worships FIA; without a FIA stamp, his record wouldn't have any significance in UK.
This is different in America where a Bonneville record is highly regarded.
In America, you can be 'self-sufficient' in Europe we don't have that luxury.
I am 'European', but I really can't see why it is not possible to have two "World Record Organisations", or why a SCTA sanction for records organised under their jurisdiction and under the same rules is not acceptable to Europeans.
If, (to quote the 'wise' JackD) "the fastest vehicles always seek FIA FIM recognition", maybe it's about time that attitudes start changing in this sport and people realise who gives them value for money.
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If the SCTA/BNI organized a group to manage the FIA FIM LSR affairs, they would not be refused.
As long as they continue to fight about "Who has the biggest one", that is as far as they are going to get.
If you have a leading status in the sport, use it to prevale or be content to "Rooster." :wink:
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Confucius say - only land speed racers seek true enlightment , rest of world don't give a flying copulation :wink:
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Confucius say - only land speed racers seek true enlightenment , rest of world don't give a flying copulation :wink:
He learned that from his daddy, Confusion.
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If, (to quote the 'wise' JackD) "the fastest vehicles always seek FIA FIM recognition",
Not true, re: ABB electric attempt on some obscure road in Nevada's Badlands.
If you want to be the fastest, challenge the fastest. Biggest gun wins!
DW
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If the SCTA/BNI organized a group to manage the FIA FIM LSR affairs, they would not be refused.
JackD,
Do I smell LSA?
DW
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The Electric car did seek FIA, and it wasn't the fastest, but it wanted to be.
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To have the FIA (or FIM) as the governing body at your speed record attempt you have to invite them - they do not just turn up! And the 'you' in all of this is the racer who wants their recognition. The paperwork that the racer fills in has all of his own details, the names of the people in charge and the details those of the then current record holder including speeds etc. and much more.
As to the FIA records list, even I cannot understand why some records set on the Bonneville salt flats by American drivers have not been entered correctly or in full. But I would suggest that the answer is not to be found in FIA Paris, but somewhere within the shores of the USA. May I quote the opening sentence of FIA Art 232 - Registration of Records. "Each ASN shall keep an up-to-date register of all records established or broken on its own territory". (for accuracy this para does then go on about the FIA for International and World ... ). I have not highlighted the word 'all' as it is not in the Appendix D, but there should never y need for referral outside the USA!
The ASN for America is ACCUS (who devolve governance at the attempts on its 'territory' to officials from its member clubs USAC or SCCA). ACCUS was at advantage to all other ASN's as its leader, until earlier this year, was the Chairman of the FIA Records Commission.
If the SCTA were to be a member of ACCUS (you cannot have two ASN in one country) then all could be managed without any problems ..... other than the SCTA having to re-name the records set under the procedures used that are other than the FIA operating rules.
The FIA has about 180 irganisations around the world who could put their name to an FIA record, but in the USA the recognition is of ACCUS not SCTA. I have not told (and never will try to tell) my US racer friends how they should reorganise themselves, but Jack D must have tried in the past.
How Rosemeyer can keep implying thet its all a 'european' problem is beyond me? Perhaps he and Land Speed Louise as writers have some form of common agenda?
Thanks JackD for providing the answer about ABB e=motion.
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Malcom
Myself and I'm sure a lot of people on this site would like to know, If you, persomally had the talent to build your own vehicle, and if you personally had the balls to actually set a record that is faster than anyone has ever gone before. Does it matter to you who certifies it and if so which organization do you prefer? ok before you answer, lift your skirt and grab your sack, keep your babble short, a yes or no and a organization is all we want to know.
Kent
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"Organization will help to qualify the end result." 8)
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Kent and group,
Some more information for you before I answer - if you cannot wait got to the last paragraph.
The cars that I have driven include the fastest ever in the UK - so I did not do 300mph because the owner would not allow me to use the afterburner. 200 mph on a 1.9 mile runway may not be ballsy enough?
My UK records are endurance records - driving with a team through 24 hours. Four class records have my name - speeds at a controlled 137mph. Fastest laps about 145 mph in the dark (sometime about 3am). (Still don't rate any balls?)
Talent or lack of to build? My welding is c**p, but I have assembled a few UK race cars. The Metisse was pictured in Jon's gallery. My current project, with others, is a hydroplane.
YES it matters. If I want the outright fastest on two or four wheels in a wheeldriven streamliner then it has to be FIM or FIA. If, as I discussed at length with John Beckett, it is to go fast in a UK built Competition Coupe then it will be ECTA and/or SCTA.
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He smokes! :wink:
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Wow too bad I was gonna offer you a ride in my twin engine 'liner. Its ready to go 300 on my soft 240 record. You could have had a record over 300 mph and had the fastest F/BGS anywhere but if it doesn?t mean anything to ya then I?ll just race it myself. I will offer this.... If I hear a very loud "popping" sound when you pull your head out of your ass then I'll let ya race my car!
Love Ya
Kent
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Malcom is a standup dude...........I personally
can hardly wait to tip a cold one with him..........
Malcom.............CHEERS my friend!!!!!!!!
Kent.....still looking for a driver??.......for less frontal
area??
Joe :)
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I Agree, Joea Malcom is a good guy. If he ever makes to the states, I'd be proud to buy him a warm or cold beer. He is also a gentleman, which is more than I can say for "Big Ball Riches" If Kent Riches Balls were as big as his mouth is , then I might say he's got something. It's easy to be a "tough guy" when its "long distance., And he certainly does NOT speak for me. Malcom keep posting as you see it, I
may not agree with you, But you have every right to plead your case.
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pookie..... I AM as big as my mouth is...... It is because of my mouth why I am so big........ I am, I am, I am.
My mouth can speak as to the size of my ass, but my mouth certainly will never speak for your....
As my mouth has never spoken if I am a gentleman, or the size of my balls, You are welcome to come down and count the trophy's and championship placks in my office, see the success of my business, or even count my records.... you can get educated and when you decide, probably your mouth will sing Kent's "got the biggest balls of all" (from the AC/DC song "we've got balls") LOL
I'm not saying that Malcolm is not a stand up guy, I think he is very knowledgeable. I think he is just blinded by all of the FIM's self proclaimed glitter. When It comes to land speed racing, We're IT!
Yours in sport
Kent
Joe, the 750 a/ps needs a rider. been setting for a couple of years hasn't been ridden since that Cycle World guy rode it.
Wow this is fun and another 11 points for me
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pookie..... I AM as big as my mouth is...... It is because of my mouth why I am so big........ I am, I am, I am.
My mouth can speak as to the size of my ass, but my mouth certainly will never speak for your....
As my mouth has never spoken if I am a gentleman, or the size of my balls, You are welcome to come down and count the trophy's and championship placks in my office, see the success of my business, or even count my records.... you can get educated and when you decide, probably your mouth will sing Kent's "got the biggest balls of all" (from the AC/DC song "we've got balls") LOL
I'm not saying that Malcolm is not a stand up guy, I think he is very knowledgeable. I think he is just blinded by all of the FIM's self proclaimed glitter. When It comes to land speed racing, We're IT!
Yours in sport
Kent
Joe, the 750 a/ps needs a rider. been setting for a couple of years hasn't been ridden since that Cycle World guy rode it.
Wow this is fun and another 11 points for me
Kent, that is my ride....remember... :roll:
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The score so far is:
-45% of people feel it's important who sanction their speed.
-54% think it doesn't matter.
The variation over the last 10 days or so has always been around 50-50, with some people well entrenched in their position.
Which means that for half of the racers and enthusiasts at large, it's the speed that is important, not which organisation recognise it.
At least it comfirm my own opinion, but it's good to hear it from the ACTUAL racers themselves.
Sumner originally asked to compare Bonneville speeds against Maxton speeds, but most of the interventions were about FIA v. SCTA! Funny how the old debate reappears at every occasion...
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Sumner originally asked to compare Bonneville speeds against Maxton speeds, but most of the interventions were about FIA v. SCTA! Funny how the old debate reappears at every occasion...
Actually, I don't think I worded what I meant very well. I'm not asking to compare speeds on different tracks against each other. You have to decide which format impresses you the most. I was trying to find out if you trusted the speed posted by the organization under their format or if you only accepted say a speed as being official (accurate) if it was verified by say FIA, SCTA, or some other organization.
But anyway I think you get it :D .
c ya, Sum
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Hey malcolm
I found the pix of your metisse, silly boy, it has 2 too many wheels! My Rickman Metisse only had 2 wheels, it had a brit motor in it so i sold it years ago. Silly me I wish I still had it!
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So long as the racers want a third party organisation to time their efforts then the records remain in good standing. If anyone wants to go off and run to their own rules and methods then only the sport can lose.
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Kent - the duo of Derek and Don Rickman made a fine kit car in the Metisse - which as you say is the name taken from their two wheeler racers.
Thanks to everyone for their kind words - better be my round when I get back to Bonneville.
Perhaps when racers offer their rides to others we should send round FR as an initial independant expert build surveyor? (And that was a joke!) LOL
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sorry Kent, looks like that ride is spoken for............
if ya have tryouts....back to back runs with diff riders.....wrestle offs or whatever..........count me in..........
Joe
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It all boils down to they "Vote with their feet".
Some feet their way all the way to Australia.
The credibility is only what you make of it.
Like most sports there is a place to start and and a place to end.
Set your targets and go for it.
I like the story of the Rooster and the Buzzard.
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Oh yeah, wrestle off's...
J 8)
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joe I dont think noonan would fight fair. He's a big fan of that ultimate fighting stuff, I think he has all of the collectable dolls and trading cards. LOL
KR
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Kent, I am not just a fan, often a participant..."Let's Get It On!!"
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Oh boy!! Wrestle offs!! Does my 4 years high school,7 years freestyle,7 years high school coach,10 year freestyle coach count???I'm there,baby.
Course,I'm kinda like a dragbike now,good for short violent spurts,then off to the next round---
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All wrestling matches are to be done on the muddy side of the dyke right after the drivers meeting. The winner gets the 1st run and ya gotta remember pigs like mud and slop so a Harley rider will have the advantage. LOL. BTW Jack D. is to old and he cheats as well.
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ya have a stunt driver.
The stunt part is setting a record with the worst driver and not cheat.
Good drivers are too easy. :wink:
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just like racing......only the performance counts.......
so we have an event........maybe international.......
30 second periods??
anything else we should set up for down under.....
bench press, pushups, 26.2 mile runs???
I been especially practicing the "down under" part........
Joe (honey... I'm ready to practice) Amo :)
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Somebody has already taken your idea for the suit that was inspired by Liberace and the pirate.
He had it tailored in Mexico. :wink:
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It don't matter, wrestling is fake just like Keith's rocks. All pretty boys in purple suits, that grunt and sweat, leap off the ropes and come from Alabama.
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Glenn,that's wrasslin' you're refering to.
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I been especially practicing the "down under" part........
Joe (honey... I'm ready to practice) Amo :)
Joe your such a cunning linguist :lol:
Gary
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Hey; I have climbed Kilimanjaro and it is the highest SINGLE (semantics again) mountain on earth. (Got frostbite in Africa in the summer, explain that to your health plan) . I agree with Mr. Dahlgren that none of the playing fields are equal, nor the conditions. But the fastest is the fastest. In my little two-wheel world the 260.2 by Lee Shierts on Rich Yancy's bike at Maxton is the best. John's 259.8 mile is certainly very close, but it is slower and the record under the rules is "only" 252 something. Why does everyone always mention their exit or GPS speed? Because it is the fastest. I can't get my wife to move West. It would be great to zip over to the World Finals on years when the conditions equaled the proverbial mineshaft. Most of the fastest SCTA records are set then. So since no one can establish equal venues or conditions, I propose LARRY'S LAW. If it is a sanctioning body timed and accepted speed and it is faster than any other. YOU ARE THE MAN, THE KING OF SPEED. And so it is proclaimed by Larry
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if it is a respectable sanctioning body with certified lights you should own the record and bragging rights. except if it is the ECTA
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to tell you about the "Salt Rabbits" tonight. :wink:
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Sorry Larry (Larry Forstal) to disagree with you! I can't see how one can compare a two-run average speed over a mile with a speed measured over 132 feet.
Both performance are outstanding, but there is no way they are comparable. One is more an 'instant' speed, the other an 'average' speed.
The speed recorded at Maxton is maybe higher than John Noonan's FIM record at Bonneville, but that would be forgetting that John had to sustain his speed over a longer distance, and both ways! I don't know if his top speed has been measured at any point during the attempt, but it could have been higher (or it may have not) than the speed quoted for Maxton.
These are 2 different kinds of performance, both absolutely fantastic.
But then I would say that since I am bias toward sit-on, open, partially streamlined bikes!
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Mr. Rosemeyer: In skating, gymnastics and other sports they award points based on the degree of difficulty. At Bonneville it is a matter of reaching a maximum speed in a given mile with three to choose from. The power to weight of a motorcycle allows it (with proper ballast) to reach that speed in the first timed mile. That is three miles total. Current technology makes turbocharged engines quite reliable so the average is always close to the peak speed. The Maxton mile is concrete but it was not paved yesterday so the surface is rough and bumpy. The acceleration needed to reach 260 MPH in just one mile is incredible to watch. The balance and throttle control are the finest of lines between wheel spin and wheel lofting. That doesn't even take into account the braking skill necessary to stop in the short distance available. I have only been 200 myself(At Bonneville) but my bikes have been 251 at Bonneville and 235 at Maxton. Believe me peak speed at Maxton is MUCH harder than Bonneville. This includes the riders skill, courage etc. in the degree of difficulty. Larry
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Larry, I do appreciate that running at Maxton is difficult. I have never been there myself, but saw the layout of the track and as you said, the short distance to stop must be ever present to the mind of whoever commit himself to 'gun' his bike. Plus, like you also said, the track is less than ideal surface wise and that must be unnerving in itself.
My previous message was in no way to devalue speeds there (I am not qualified to do that), but to comment that in my opinion, the 2 performances are not comparable. I take your word that 260 at Maxton is more difficult/risky/skillful than same speed at Bonneville.
It maybe that there is more potential to go faster in future at Bonneville than at Maxton, for the reasons you gave.
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Regardless of various legislation to protect the class-A bike the sit ups based on st ockers are the fastest. They go better because they are a better package with the rider to deliver the available HP in more conditions.
A proper built to the existing rules class-A bike can be faster , but the conditions are less available.
It is not only a factor of surface conditions, but the environment that can be encountered over the distance.
Riders want to do more with aero in the belief that it is the next big speed development. The safety record is there for a reason and limits are well established with a good record. It would be a disservice to allow a known package to crash and then learn again the lessons of the past.
Each location is going to have it's limits and you can depend on the bikers to find them. The Sanction has the job to keep it fair and as safe as is reasonable. It is the riders job to go the fastest with the bounds of safety, not change the rules.
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("The balance and throttle control are the finest of lines between wheel spin and wheel lofting.")
Larry what about the CONSTANT tire spinning at Bonneville??
Larry it is common knowledge that "I" as well as others don't give any credibility to ecta records. I don't put it past those guys to put the lights 1 step closer together and BOOM almost everyone gets records. like last month 39 records for 69 entries. Since you are talking about Yancy's bike lets take it for example, they have been running in the 240 range for years with occasional low 250 something passes. this year they didn't set a record in March or May, with records of 249 and 252 in Sept and a 255 record in April so it would be safe to say that this is a passable mid 250 bike. OK now the Oct meet, the last lsr meet for the year, on the 29th Lee Shierts ran a 245, a 252, a 116, and at 4pm ran a 256. the next day at 8:47 am BOOM he ran a 260!!!! then the next pass was a 365mph!!!! followed by a 211 by Pollack on the same bike. Actually if you look at the numbers only 14 records set on the 29th and 24 records set on the 30th!!!! I'm not saying there is someone on the grassy knoll, but Turk was pretty fast in posting the ecta has the fastest bike and bagged on Noonan. Most of you who know me, know that I don't just start crap I just come right out and say whatever I think. In my opinion I think they moved the lights closer together Saturday night and everyone gets records and the ecta can claim the fastest bike. Now my claim cant be verified but look at there run logs and results and come up with your own opinion but to me they aren't a credible organization and there records don't mean a thing to me.
Oh yeah while your at it look at that guy with the 125 he has been running a constant 100 to 104 mph records for a few years and then on the 30th he miraculously runs a 109???? yeah right come on guys! tell us it was the wind or something.
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Well, Mark rode the 125 Mito bike to a 107.349 at Bonneville in August '05. Add a little bit of lower altitude at Maxton and there's the 109. Nancy rode that bike to a 107.6 at Maxton in October '04, and add a little tuning and development during the '05 season and again, there's the 109.
At Maxton you can see black marks from tire spin down the entire length of the concrete surface. A new mark appears after many of Yancy's bike's runs. Tire spin IS an issue at Maxton, just like it is at Bonneville.
I'll let Joe Timney discuss where he puts the lights.
Ooops, gotta go -- the Grand Imperial Potentate of Sierra Leone just sent an email asking if I'll help move $15,500,000 out of a dormant bank account somewhere in Africa. Dang, this could be my ticket to fame and fortune!
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The first time that anybody beat the Honda at 219 in the dirt, he had a 22 mph tail wind. Did he forget to tell you ?
Cheat doesn't happen as often as mistakes. That goes for setting up the lights, conditions, and just figuring out how to go faster.
Equipment standards change all the time and often you find you are not using the best. :wink:
OBTW: Slim, just send me the money, I will make you famous. Remember I have the pictures.
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I'm not afraid to post my opinions either.... Call me a liar or a cheater again and I'll see you... in person, we can both express our opinions and options... it will be my honor... which by the way your questioning here... and honestly I'm not very fond of it.... But being a gentleman I'll give you the opportunity to apologize with NO qualifications.
Keith Turk
Race Director
Co-owner ECTA
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2530 fortune way
Vista, Ca. 92083
You can mapquest it if you wish
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alrighty then........
do to this years low ticket sales
at scta events.....a special year
end fundraiser has taken
shape nicely.........
payperview proceeds to landracing.com
double header.....
preliminary match.....Amo - Noonan ....3 periods.......
main event.......Turk - Riches.......
special guest J.D. Tone will be on hand selling
granola and signed copies of the best selling CD
"Marticissm new language of love" featuring the
holiday hit "Im not coming home for christmas"
"pot" luck to follow for SoCal folks, hosted by Jack D..........
Joe
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Why would an honest, intelligent, truthful man accuse another person of dishonest behavior without any evidence? The answer of course is he wouldn't. Doug Odom
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to write so even the "potted" people can understand it. 8)
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Riders want to do more with aero in the belief that it is the next big speed development. The safety record is there for a reason and limits are well established with a good record. It would be a disservice to allow a known package to crash and then learn again the lessons of the past.
quote]
Jack , somewere on this forum you stated that "some say why not ,you can also learn something from these as well" well my friend watch and learn , there is an unplayed ace , I intend to play it and will achieve my goal , its something that allows one to play with lots of aero and laugh at sidewinds :wink: now all I need is some of that easy money you and Mr seldom seen have come into :D
Gary
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"It has been well established that over the speed that you might expect to achieve on a horse, you will find it imposable to breath."
My dad that joined the Navy in 1918 brought his dad aboard a ship in the Boston Navy Yard for a tour. When he thought no one was looking, his dad took out a pocket knife to take a chip out of the ship because he was convinced a steel ship could never float.
Like many things, motorcycles have not been perfected yet, and you are never going to stop that for sure.
I press certain things but understand that if I try to hold everybody's hand I would be gasping for breath on a horse and depending on a wood boat.
If nobody tried stuff, how else are they going to know ?
I expect to continue to watch and learn and I am anxious to watch your progress.
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Most of you who know me, know that I don't just start crap I just come right out and say whatever I think. In my opinion I think they moved the lights closer together Saturday night and everyone gets records and the ecta can claim the fastest bike. Now my claim cant be verified but look at there run logs and results and come up with your own opinion but to me they aren't a credible organization and there records don't mean a thing to me.
Opinions are like a$$holes everyone has one. Occasionally they act like their opinion as well. Been there done that and outgrew it about 20 years ago. Really think about what you said. You called at least 2 people dishonest with zero evidence at all. Have you ever been to a drag race? Have you ever seen some one pick up several miles an hour. Have you ever seen lane choice affect the performance and change the ET and MPH? Have you ever seen a high pressure front move in and everyone is a tenth quicker? A run log is not an industrial process that can be analyised statisically for peak and mean values in the short term. At Maxton it is a one mile drag race on a rough course, give it some real thought. If you have never been why not go there and see what is going on and see if it is believable before you openly state people are dishonest. Personally I have always found the loudest person is generally wrong. One could as easily ask how did a 250 mph bike go 259??? When Joe Amo ran a 244 on a one liter that was a ton over the record do you think they moved the lights? Maybe that is why return runs are tough in the morning because at night they screw with the lights to keep the number of records down...
Dave
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Mr. Rosemeyer: Thank you for your kind insightful reply. Salt is the faster venue for bikes. Next year Australia or Utah will prove that. As for Maxton: YO SCOTT, where are you when I need you? :lol: Larry
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Scott is ROFLHAO. :wink:
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My answer to the original question is =NO
It doesn't matter who certifies, as long as its the same one at the same track. You don't have NASCAR and the NHRA counting lap times at Datona. WE are starting to compare apples to oranges. Bonneville is NOT the same as Maxton and not the same as Muroc and not the same as Interstate 70, and should not be compared to it.
Rick
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so Dave, your a math kinda guy, how much closer do they have to move the lights together to make a 254 bike go 260? you do the math, tell me, if its 13 feet then I'm a big asshole! if its 1.3 ft then????
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Well, you just told everyone what you are. Doug Odom
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How far you might have to move the lights is not material to the conversation. The fact that you suggested they did is the issue. I personally don't care if is 1 foot or 10 that has nothing to do with you questioning the integrity of honest people. That is the issue I take great offense to. If you don't care about the venue then why even make an issue of it? I don't want to burst any bubbles but the center of the universe may not have a zip code that you are willing accept. I personally am not sure where it is or even care for that matter, so I go have some fun when i can and take it all in stride. Life is way to short for disparaging people for things that might have happened or could have happened when the outcome of something is not to our liking. The sacred ground at Bonneville is not even flat no matter what they call it. If it was the water would be all the same depth right? Possibly we should disallow records if not run on exactly the same surface every year. What should you do if you make a run and then they move the course and the next bike is faster than you on a fresh course or should we drag it before each pass? This whole thing is childish to be honest, I think OJ did it and there were guys on the grassy knoll and the guys at Area 54 do have a spaceship hidden but i think maybe i will just plod along the best i can and live life rather than looking for ghosts every time a stair creaks. The real proof might be to go to Maxton and run faster than Lee does on the same track and the same day. I have no reason to argue with you like i said before just think of what you say about people is always sound advice in the bigger picture allies and enemies have a funny way of swapping sides when you least expect it and treating everyone with a little thought and consideration means it doesn't matter if they do change.
Dave
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My 2 cents, Probably worth about a penny.
I have been to about 8 or 9 Maxton meets while living in NC. Even took my father there with me once. He's been around land speed racing for a few years and we both thought they run a pretty good meet. I have talked with all the people that run the events, Joe, Keith, The late John Beckett and I can't fathom any of them comprimising the integrity of the sport by doing something like sneaking clocks closer. I don't know why you would want to bash ECTA. They are just a bunch of land speed racers that don't have a salt bed within a days drive so they do the best with what they have. This bashing makes no sense to me. Some SCTA members used to bash USFRA that the speeds were BS. Now USFRA and SCTA share the same records. A lot of folks across the pond think SCTA records are BS because no FIA. Is that the case are all SCTA records BS? IF someone on a bike at Lake Gairdner runs 270 Is it BS because the Aussies cut 10 feet off the distance of the clocks?
I usually don't give a rats ass about others opinions. But I trust Joe Timney and Keith Turks integrity and their respect for the sport both on the salt and at Maxton. If it was me setting up the clocks and someone implied that I was rigging the event it would be in that persons best intrest to avoid me at all costs the next time we were in the same area.
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I didn't tell the story about the 100 ft SCTA error until last night. I did it with the math and let the starter know. When he came in that night after dragging he brought it up and the decision was as Scott said. I was also a victim of that.
I particularly enjoyed Larry's roadster next to Hippo's at Pomona that year. It was remarkable. :wink:
As as for flat, anybody can clearly see at Bonneville with the horizon it is uphill in all directions.
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Mistakes can only take a second and less time than cheating.
Mistakes can last forever but cheating does not do unrewarded for long.
From the extent of the mail, it would seem that a number of people were the victims.
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Having been in the timing stand the last 22 years I have seen a lot of things and wonder where this is going. The error in the 1/4 mile trap is true and it was corrected. However the 1/4 mile trap does not qualify you for a record , it only qualifies you to run the long course if you exceed 175 mph. You still have to run the full third mile to qualify for a return run.
I think it's time to stop this pissing contest before someone goes nuts and more name calling and threats get started. Let us start something new.
What matters is that we have safe racing on whatever venue we decide to race on.
There are over 100 posts on the subject and nothing is being resolved. As the past chief timer and assistant timer with Gary Cagle the one thing we demanded was accuracy. Each year at the lakes and on the salt I spend many hours going over the times to assure they are correct.
Dan Warner and Ed Safrec also verify the times that we record by computer and on the hand written time sheets. It takes time for this and for J.D. Tone to print the certs which are also double checked before I sign them and send them to the President to sign.
It's a lot of work and I will stand by all of what I do. Keith and Joe are no different.
Glen
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I suspect the racer makes far more mistakes and even cheats than could ever be attributed to the officials.
All of the cheating I have seen on the part of the track operator has been in drag racing and that turned into a mistake for them.