Author Topic: Does Texas Mile have same license process as SCTA and ECTA?  (Read 11581 times)

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landracing

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Does Texas Mile have same license process as SCTA and ECTA?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2006, 01:22:35 AM »
Well said Otto...

Now start a new thread on your parachute problems and there will be plenty of things thrown out there for you to get that fixed before speedweek or even texas this year...

Also I would like to state you might want to raise that puppy a little. I remember you towing back to the pits and rubbed the body a few times on bottom... It probably would not survive a tow back to the pits from a 6 mile run... Now thinking of the rear of the body.. Adding a tail section on the back might help, but how to get the chutes out  I have seen some with a flush hole in the rear with the contour of a smooth surface, but being able to get the parachutes out the hole is another issue... I might be wrong but I think I remember something about the Burklands were using a 140lb spring to get their parachutes out in the clean air and away from the back of the car.

Offline askotto

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Does Texas Mile have same license process as SCTA and ECTA?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2006, 02:56:24 AM »
Thanks Jon!

The reason the ass end looked like it was cut off is because I was working on the car up until the time I left. Plans are to taper the rear to a point. Also, behind the half shafts fairings will taper to horizontal plane point. I'm sure that's why my chutes were sucked in the rear of the body and it surely held the speed potential back with all the drag.

I've seen chute springs so strong it takes mechanical advantage to get them closed. I think the redesigned rear body fairing will cure the problem. I'm also shortening the chute tubes 4" to increase the pilot chute spring pressure. I'm also dumping the aluminum trap doors for the looped straps I got with the chutes. The first failure happened when the lanyard caught on the trap door. I added springs on the doors for the second run but then the chutes got sucked into the vortex from hell.

For the record, the IRS is not a Jag. It's a Winters IRS quick change, custom 12" aluminum half shafts and C-4 Vette hubs. 36" aluminum 4 links locate it and coil-over springs suspend it. At Texas the car was very low because I was gambling on spring tension in the coilovers. With the variations in the return road levels it was dragging like a big dog. It didn't drag on the track. Saturday night I relocated the anchor points for the coil-overs and raised the back of the car 2". It solved the problem and "she no scrape". I purposely set the ride height as low as I could. I surmised, streamliners are close to the ground so they slip under the air instead of going through it. I tried the same thing. Plus I like a very low CG in spins. That's one of the reasons I went with IRS. Also because it is far superior to rigid and even sprung solid axles for getting the HP to the salt. All the fast lakesters in the old days were IRS, OK, modified Ford "swing axles".

I'll be the first to admit I'm a newbee in the LSR ranks but I'm a contentious racer that listens and learns from the veterans. I'm here with open ears.

Thanks again
Otto

Offline Sumner

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Does Texas Mile have same license process as SCTA and ECTA?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2006, 11:51:32 AM »
Quote from: askotto
Thanks Jon!

The reason the ass end looked like it was cut off is because I was working on the car up until the time I left. Plans are to taper the rear to a point. Also, behind the half shafts fairings will taper to horizontal plane point. I'm sure that's why my chutes were sucked in the rear of the body and it surely held the speed potential back with all the drag.

I've seen chute springs so strong it takes mechanical advantage to get them closed. I think the redesigned rear body fairing will cure the problem. I'm also shortening the chute tubes 4" to increase the pilot chute spring pressure. I'm also dumping the aluminum trap doors for the looped straps I got with the chutes. The first failure happened when the lanyard caught on the trap door. I added springs on the doors for the second run but then the chutes got sucked into the vortex from hell.

For the record, the IRS is not a Jag. It's a Winters IRS quick change, custom 12" aluminum half shafts and C-4 Vette hubs. 36" aluminum 4 links locate it and coil-over springs suspend it. At Texas the car was very low because I was gambling on spring tension in the coilovers. With the variations in the return road levels it was dragging like a big dog. It didn't drag on the track. Saturday night I relocated the anchor points for the coil-overs and raised the back of the car 2". It solved the problem and "she no scrape". I purposely set the ride height as low as I could. I surmised, streamliners are close to the ground so they slip under the air instead of going through it. I tried the same thing. Plus I like a very low CG in spins. That's one of the reasons I went with IRS. Also because it is far superior to rigid and even sprung solid axles for getting the HP to the salt. All the fast lakesters in the old days were IRS, OK, modified Ford "swing axles".

I'll be the first to admit I'm a newbee in the LSR ranks but I'm a contentious racer that listens and learns from the veterans. I'm here with open ears.

Thanks again
Otto


I think you are going in the right direction with the rear of the car.  We had some discussion on ride height a while back, not very long ago, and a search could probably get you to it.  You're ahead of me as I'm still in the building stage, but I'm going the higher route.  With your body shape I might be inclined to leave it where it is and see how it works.  It is a nice looking car  :D .

On the chute tubes you might want to leave them at the present length, which possible you might need some day if you changed chutes, but fill the front of them.  That has been suggested to me.

I usually go through Albq. a couple times a year going to my mom's in Missouri and would like to stop and see the car on one of those trips if I don't see you on the salt first.

The part about the "adrenaline taking over".  We have all been there are we wouldn't be racers.  Probably the real advantage of racing on the salt is they have developed a good procedure there to first correctly check the car over, secondly checking the driver and the vehicle over in an increasing speed situation.  Not to take anything away from the Texas Mile as they are still very new at this, but it sounds like they would be at a real advantage if a couple of the SCTA guys could make it there to help them out for a while with the LSR cars.

Lastly when you go to the salt you should come by Blanding, Ut. where I live and go with us.  I'm on the way either coming up from Gallup or Farmington.  A number of guys usually get in here Tuesday before Speed Week and we go out sight seeing around here on Wed. and then drive up together on Thursday and set up our pits on Fri..  Keep in touch and try and go with us.  

The story was good and I'm glad you told it :D . Some things there that we can all learn from.

c ya, Sum

Offline TheRipler

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Re: Gee guys, lighten up!!!!
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2006, 01:32:36 PM »
Quote from: askotto
First I would like to apologize to the Suburu owners out there.


OK, we'll let you live. I don't know if you took the time to notice, but even though we only go ~150mph with our little 4-bangers, HKP and I are generally the closest fight out there. Generally within .1mph of each other 2 years running, even though we've taken very different approaches to add speed. Not to mention, we give a lot of V8's a run for their money while having 4-5 doors. (whatever it takes) ;) Next month, there should be a 2.5L out there that might wake up some moded Cobras and Vettes. I hope I get to see that.

I would like to see the event mature. I'd like to have a licensing program, but you probably need someone experienced to implement it. I went through licensing at Maxton, but basicly just did what they told me. I don't really understand the process thuroughly. I'd like to see the classification for street cars change to something that doesn't penalize people for being able to turn corners. Better tech inspection for LSR vehicles is desperately needed as well, but I'll say again "those guys don't grow on trees".

The ECTA had the benefit of experienced LSR people forming the event. Tech inspection doesn't seem like something you could just learn in a few months. It seems like it would take time and experience, and that experience isn't going to come from Texas. Is it a volunteer position in other organizations? What do you have to do to get to the point of being a tech inspector for the SCTA?
Professor Weinburger sighed, knowing that without the alien mother to care for the last surviving egg of her once-proud species, the egg would surely die; still, he thought, greasing the fry-pan, it certainly was going to be an interesting breakfast.

Offline askotto

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Ankle Biter responces to Sum
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2006, 02:17:32 PM »
Hi Sum

Thanks for the positive feedback! And for the offer to join your caravan to the salt. I would love to be able to pit with experienced racers as that is exactically what a newbee to LSR needs. Someone looking over my shoulder saying "What in the hell were you thinking!!!"

I loved your web site!!! I think I need one for my car to get input on construction from the experienced racers. They seem to have plenty to say....

I think you do need some slapping around about running your rear end out in the breeze. This is obscene!!! If I read you right, you want to remove the tapered roller bearings on the carrier, replace them with sealed ball bearings and run the ring and pinion exposed? Oiling the gears before each run? What in the hell are you thinking!!! LOL First, the tapered roller bearings on the carrier are curtial to the lash with the pinion gears. Although ball bearings can be adjusted side to side, they were never designed to be used in a thrust application. They would fail and there goes your lash and ring and pinion. Secondly, unless you know about some super lube, any oil you anointed on the gears before leaving the line would be slung off and replaced with salt dust. Need I say more! I can understand that no lube is way less drag but in this case it can't be avoided. Thinner, slipperier lubes are the way to go but you must keep the ring and pinion in lubricant. You asked about lockers for a Z-28 rear. Do what we did in the early days, weld the chit out of the spiders! It locks it up forever.

E-mail me at askotto@aol.com about you spinning by the ranch to see Ankle Biter and me linking up with you in August. Thanks for the offer, it will be a blast and I'm looking forward to it!

Otto

Offline askotto

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Ankle Biter responce to The Ripler
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2006, 03:15:53 PM »
Hi Rip

First, I respect the power they are getting out of modern OHC 4 cylinder engines. The Eco-Tec is incredible, 1200 HP with less than 2 liters!!! Unbelievable by early V8 standards where 1 HP per cube was a big deal. There is no doubt the early big V8 can't hold a candle to the power numbers of the modern blown/turbo 4 banger. I'm an old school guy who was weaned on the sound of a powerful, throaty V8 and just can't seem to get turned on by the sound of a high reving 4 banger. The sound of a 16,000 rpm Formula engine is verging on fingernail scratches on the black board!!! Gives me chills thinking about it! LOL Simply a matter of choice.

Actually the Texas mile folks probably don't have to look farther than a NHRA inspector for an excellent SCTA rule inspector. The rules are different in some areas but it doesn't take an engineer to apply them to a LSR. The SCTA and USFRA ( Not the USHGA organization like I stated in my earlier response. The USHGA is the United States Hang Glider Assos. I also belong to...) both have training programs to certify inspectors. I'm sure a request to the SCTA would produce a certified SCTA inspector at the March race. It would be hove them to have 3 there so new LSR cars could get the frames certified before they tow all the way to Bonneville in August only to find their car needs major work to certify. The Texas mile could be a proving ground for all new LSR cars. The SCTA driver licensing only requires progressive runs up to 175 mph to qualify the fastest drivers. That is "easily" attained by a LSR car as I almost hit that in second gear. I admit the traction and spin possibilities are different with cement and salt but it still would be a good indicator of the cars handling and drivers capabilities. It certainly verifys the cars braking capabilities.

If the SCTA takes the Texas Mile under their wings, I would expect rules changes for the brake requirements for the Texas Mile. SCTA has special rules now for the dry lakes and I can see a section for Texas only application, as it should be. Most Bonneville LSR cars don't even use their brakes except while in line to run. Most simply coast off the course after the chutes do their job. At Texas you need all the brakes you can strap on the car. Considering the SCTA is a So Cal organization, I see more chances of a STTA, The Southern Texas Timing Assoc. coming into vogue. The ECTA is "sorta" a spimoff of the SCTA so It's appropriate the STTA be formed. Actually, it would be cool, and trendy I might add, for the SCTA to take over the nation regulation of all LSR just like the NHRA did back 50's with drag racing. Everybody uses the SCTA rules anyway and with more tracks popping up seemingly everywhere, it only makes sense to play by the same rules so racers can run inter-trackuly,(new word) and their cars would fit the tracks rules. I would think the SCTA would embrace the idea because like all organizations, they operate on membership fees along with event revenues, This would also allow the big cheezes in the ECTA to return to their love of racing their cars and not "babysitting" all the rest of the racers.

Would the SCTA have to change their name to a more "Nationally" based name like the NHRA. Such as NTA??? Sounds too much like a railroad. LSRNTA??? Say that 3 times fast! Name change, absolutely not, different circumstances. The NHRA was started by Wally and the gang to initially be a national organization. The SCTA are the forefathers of all the LSR in this country. Any hot rodder worth his torque wrench would probably tell you we were envious of all the cool and very fast cars coming out of California. Face it, all cool things originate in California and the rest of us know that. I, as many are proud to belong to the SCTA, no need to change anything.

First the Texas people have to want it and I see no reason why they shouldn't. It can only benefit them and the sport. Can't we all just get along....Group hug....

Otto

Offline Sumner

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Re: Ankle Biter responces to Sum
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2006, 03:17:01 PM »
Quote from: askotto
Hi Sum

Thanks for the positive feedback! And for the offer to join your caravan to the salt. I would love to be able to pit with experienced racers as that is exactically what a newbee to LSR needs. Someone looking over my shoulder saying "What in the hell were you thinking!!!"

I loved your web site!!! I think I need one for my car to get input on construction from the experienced racers. They seem to have plenty to say....

I think you do need some slapping around about running your rear end out in the breeze. This is obscene!!! If I read you right, you want to remove the tapered roller bearings on the carrier, replace them with sealed ball bearings and run the ring and pinion exposed? Oiling the gears before each run? What in the hell are you thinking!!! LOL First, the tapered roller bearings on the carrier are curtial to the lash with the pinion gears. Although ball bearings can be adjusted side to side, they were never designed to be used in a thrust application. They would fail and there goes your lash and ring and pinion. Secondly, unless you know about some super lube, any oil you anointed on the gears before leaving the line would be slung off and replaced with salt dust. Need I say more! I can understand that no lube is way less drag but in this case it can't be avoided. Thinner, slipperier lubes are the way to go but you must keep the ring and pinion in lubricant. You asked about lockers for a Z-28 rear. Do what we did in the early days, weld the chit out of the spiders! It locks it up forever.

E-mail me at askotto@aol.com about you spinning by the ranch to see Ankle Biter and me linking up with you in August. Thanks for the offer, it will be a blast and I'm looking forward to it!

Otto


   

We'll you sure are welcome to pit next to us, but we are pretty short on experience ourselves :cry: , but we are learning.  I'll e-mail you about coming by your place and August.

On my car there is no ring and pinion anymore.  It is chain drive.  I will weld up the spiders now that I have a second set.  So this just means that the whole carrier will be spinning and no movement on any of the individual gears.  I feel good about not having the tapered bearings as I don't have the ring and pinion to impose thrust loads.  Also the outer hubs are located by the a-arms, so there are no loads there going to the carrier bearings.  The half shafts out to the hub will be covered with the pods that will go down the sides of the car, similar to Seth's old lakester.

Thanks for the input and glad to have you on the board,

Sum


Offline askotto

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Does Texas Mile have same license process as SCTA and ECTA?
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2006, 03:33:02 PM »
Hi Sum

OOOOHHHhhhhhhhh. When I looked on your site you had a pic of the Z-28 ring and pinion. Sorry to whine when you already had another idea going. The new setup looks great!

Odd Toe

Offline Stan Back

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Does Texas Mile have same license process as SCTA and ECTA?
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2006, 04:33:35 PM »
Otto -- Just want to echo Sum's suggestion to not shorten the parachute tube.  We left ours purposely long to allow for dirty (dirt or salt) chutes.  Turns out we needed a lot of spring pressure, a longer pilot lead and a much bigger pilot to get the job done right on our Street Roadster.  At first, the pilot just rode on over to the return road sitting on the 2-inch round bumper (after 190 mph runs).  After one or two Duck Tape (Mallard brand) rolls, jammed down the back of the tube,  it tightened up the whole setup to help some.  But after the bigger pilot and the longer lead were installed, it's a bitch to get it all in if it's even a little dirty.  Better off leaving a little room for adjustments.  Best of luck, Stan.
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Offline JackD

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CONGRATS !
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2006, 07:24:08 PM »
Where else can you swap experiences and get comments before you have to go out their and do it ?
The bad becomes the good when you have a place to share it.  More input will reduce the mistakes
 and a public forum will offer all ranges of stuff. You still have to decide on your route.
The itty bitty mistakes in the last couple of posts will be quickly clarified by somebody that is really anxious
 to help and nobody has to get mad.
 Well, if you get mad, you probably don't have the temperament for this stuff anyway.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
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Offline SPARKY

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Does Texas Mile have same license process as SCTA and ECTA?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2006, 11:15:56 AM »
Otto,  I had a similar experience my first time out at El Mirage---I spun--at speed---unlike you---I probably will never know for sure exactly what caused mine to happen.. I know what I am going to change-- but NO one person I talked to suggested --ALL---that I will change.. and I asked a lot of very experienced people..

but two things come to mind:

THOSE that live in glass houses shouldn't throw ROCKS

and as the old pilot said about gear up landings--There are those that have and those that are GOING TO!!!!!!!!!!

HOORAY for dreaming  and having the courage to chase that dream!!! that is what LSR is all about..

they even make MOVIES about such
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline Sumner

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Does Texas Mile have same license process as SCTA and ECTA?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2006, 11:36:45 AM »
Quote from: SPARKY
Otto,  I had a similar experience my first time out at El Mirage---I spun--at speed---unlike you---I probably will never know for sure exactly what caused mine to happen.. I know what I am going to change-- but NO one person I talked to suggested --ALL---that I will change.. and I asked a lot of very experienced people..

but two things come to mind:

THOSE that live in glass houses shouldn't throw ROCKS

and as the old pilot said about gear up landings--There are those that have and those that are GOING TO!!!!!!!!!!

HOORAY for dreaming  and having the courage to chase that dream!!! that is what LSR is all about..

they even make MOVIES about such


Sparky is there a picture of your lakester on the internet?  I'd like to see it.  Sounds like you are getting there.  What changes do you have planned.

c ya, Sum

Offline Glen

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does texas
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2006, 12:14:23 PM »
Sum
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Offline JackD

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Buttanyways
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2006, 12:19:30 PM »
Well it can be said of LSR vehicles and drivers
"They have not been perfected yet, otherwise they would be just like Spec Top Fuel"
While confession is said to be good for the soul,
 it really helps to spread the wealth and is a unique part of this deal that I hope never goes away. :wink:
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Sparky
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2006, 12:21:12 PM »
Sum:

Picture of Sparky's ride?  Hey, there's a video of it -- showing him practicing his circular braking technique.  I don't remember where I saw the clip -- will look around for the url, but someone will probably beat me to the punch in reporting where you can see it.
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