Milwaukee Midget

[Queeziryder]

MM & FB
Sat at home consuming a special beverage and I thought of you 

[4-barrel Mike]

  In the past, I have taken people's word for things without checking it, only to wind up with stuck valves and recontoured rockers . . .

Ronald Reagan, Chris, Ronald Reagan!  "Trust but verify."

 

Mike

[Milwaukee Midget]

  In the past, I have taken people's word for things without checking it, only to wind up with stuck valves and recontoured rockers . . .

Ronald Reagan, Chris, Ronald Reagan!  "Trust but verify."

 

Mike

I didn't know Peggy Noonan was an amateur engine builder! 

Sorry, Mike - the 1980's didn't set well with me, but I'll admit the truth of that statement stands the test of time.

So - with respect to verification -

Ironically, Fordboy's probably passing through Dutch's birthplace of Dixon, Illinois as we speak.  Check my math and procedure, Chief?

80 degrees – referenced to zero


131 degrees – referenced to zero


Gets us 105.5 degrees, which, if I’m not mistaken, is precisely where we dialed it in a few months ago.

And ALSO indicates NO CHAIN STRETCH! 

[Graham in Aus]

And ALSO indicates NO CHAIN STRETCH!  

Phew, your tensioner's doing a good job then! That's probably good 'cause I still haven't dug out that A+ motor from the depths of the deepest recesses of the shed....

I've just realised I could have got you the tensioner set up by now, so apologies for that  

When you were talking previously about Lifter radius, I mis-interpreted this as diameter, I though you were going to bore the lifter bores larger and use an MGA (or somesuch) lifter. I now realise you were concerned about the lifter face being too flat, hence the large diameter radius!  

Now I get it....... I think.......    

[Milwaukee Midget]

Now I get it....... I think.......    

We've been tossing out reams of numbers over here - don't feel bad.  The reason I put them up, and the reason I've asked Fordboy to post 'em on the diary is so I've got access to them without having to dig.

Yeah, let's see - a 41" radius lifter would be 82" in diameter - which is a span that exceeds the wheelbase . . .

Hey - it's LSR - crazier things have been tried . . . 

[fordboy628]

Midget, et all,

OK, in order:

In the non-helpful replies category, which I'm VERY good at . . .

Bock beer . . .

1]  Yikes, that beer photo is motivation enough for me to start a diet...........   (beer only, NO SOLID FOOD!!)

MM & FB
Sat at home consuming a special beverage and I thought of you  

2]  Is it exported to the US?  How do I get a sample??  Can we get an engine witch??  Or an engine goblin??  Can they get along with the engine elf Midget already has on staff???   Should the dyno session be run only under a full moon?  Uhhh, a lunar full moon, right?

Okay – as I had hoped, the timing dialed in at 105.5 with no adjustments necessary.  

Time to clamp it down and give it a final check.

One stupid note – When I started today, I turned the crank two full turns, and noticed what appeared to be a .005 bump on the base circle at 180 degrees from tdc.  The cam had just come back from Elgin, and I thought, “Oh come on, WTH?”.  As it turned out, the #2 piston was pushing up the magnetic base of the dial indicator.    

Fordboy!  Looks like the Bears went to Home Depot and bought a 55 gallon drum of shellac to apply to the Titans.

3]  Yeah, you gotta be careful when checking stuff, you could give yourself a coronary, or end up turned to the dark side of country music............

4]  My sources in Lake Forest admit it was a tanker truck of shellac..........    but used by the defense only.    Jay & the O-line apparently were not using it..........     Mike Tice thinks it's like using 'pine tar'......................

So - with respect to verification -

Ironically, Fordboy's probably passing through Dutch's birthplace of Dixon, Illinois as we speak.  Check my math and procedure, Chief?

80 degrees – referenced to zero


131 degrees – referenced to zero


Gets us 105.5 degrees, which, if I’m not mistaken, is precisely where we dialed it in a few months ago.

And ALSO indicates NO CHAIN STRETCH!  

5]  Er, no.  I avoid Dixon, and other worldly locations which turn out to be intersections of the occult, extraterrestrial activity and Right wing politics.  Turns out that math, science & evolution are out of favor with the inhabitants.................

6] It would appear that your math skills don't need any help from me.    Bravo.     On a side note, that is one spiffy checking setup for cam timing.  It appears to be universal fit as well as 'rock solid'.

7]  Confirming 105.5 degrees, intake lobe C/L

8]  No chain stretch = no chain wear, a good thing.   Your tensioner setup appears to be holding up well.

Now I get it....... I think.......    

9]  You are ahead of me then!!!  My psychiatrist keeps asking about the c-clamp on my head.   Turns out he's never owned anything Brittish, never built or repaired an engine and doesn't own any tools!  (He does own an electric leaf blower though.......)  He lives in Lake Forest, I live in Lake Villa.    Go figure..........

We've been tossing out reams of numbers over here - don't feel bad.  The reason I put them up, and the reason I've asked Fordboy to post 'em on the diary is so I've got access to them without having to dig.

Yeah, let's see - a 41" radius lifter would be 82" in diameter - which is a span that exceeds the wheelbase . . .

Hey - it's LSR - crazier things have been tried . . .  

10]  Analysis paralysis, information constipation....      Aw, chuck it!!   Screw it to the dyno & get Mistress Helga to shpank it!!!  (But make darn sure the printer is connected..........)

This time change thing has put me off my game.........
 
Fordboy

[Dean Los Angeles]

This time change thing has put me off my game.........

au contraire, based on the above post, the C-clamp appears to be torqued quite tight.

And speaking of odd tools, a buddy went to japan to buy off on a custom CNC build.
The complete machine was sitting next to a partial build. On top of the frame was a sledge hammer . . . with a load cell on the face of the hammer.

[fordboy628]

This time change thing has put me off my game.........

au contraire, based on the above post, the C-clamp appears to be torqued quite tight.

The correct torque is 61#'s/inch...........      measured laterally, just posterior of the temples.  I'm still confused about the time of day to check it though.

And speaking of odd tools, a buddy went to japan to buy off on a custom CNC build.
The complete machine was sitting next to a partial build. On top of the frame was a sledge hammer . . . with a load cell on the face of the hammer.

Ahh yes.  Those trickey high tech japanese, what will they think of next?  Beer made from rice??  Sashimi made from blowfish??
 
F/B

[fordboy628]

Midget,

For your reference:

Inner valve spring ID = .63"/.625"                         Outer valve spring ID = .859"/.863"
Inner valve spring OD = .858"/.861"                      Outer valve spring OD = 1.155"/1.162"

Valve guide OD = 15/32" nominal (.470"/.471")
Valve seal OD's < .63"

 
Fordboy

BTW:  Happy retirement to Tommy Thompson!!

[Milwaukee Midget]

I’m just idling at the moment.  The block is together, and as soon as Fordboy finishes his home maintenance, which has had him working on a ladder under a tarp for the last week in the icy mists south of the cheddar curtain, he’s going to finish up the head.

Just jotting notes and thinking through some details regarding the dyno session.  A few parts to order – a new head gasket, a harness for the ECU to use at the dyno facility.

FB posted up some spring measurements, and what I’ve been trying to hunt down is a set of spring cups that can be made to work in this application.  It’s not critical, and I’ll probably just wind up going with hardened shims, but let my throw out this Hail Mary pass –

I don’t have access to a lathe anymore, other than the cheapo unit my employer has.  I doubt it would hold an acceptable tolerance.

A lot of you have been following, many with great machining chops – maybe I can hornswoggle one of you into getting involved.  Anybody with a decent lathe out there that might be interested in burning up a Saturday afternoon and whipping me up a set of 8 spring cups?  I would get you a drawing.  PM me if interested.

Chris

[fordboy628]

Midget,

Today is your lucky day, sort of.......

Digging through old PHP dyno adaptor notes & drawings; AND, found drawing (non-digital) for BMC A series dyno adaptor to chevy bellhousing bolt pattern, AND, list of other adaptors required for BMC set-up.

Other required bits listed:

1]  Front motor mount adaptors.
2]  water outlet adaptor from BMC t'stat housing to dyno water outlet hose size.
3]  water pump inlet adaptor from BMC water pump to dyno water inlet hose size.  MUST BE A TAPERED ADAPTOR TO PREVENT WATER PUMP CAVITATION.
4]  water outlet manifold to combine flow from T'stat outlet & additional rear water outlet as plumbed in your car. AGAIN, MUST BE FABRICATED TO PREVENT CAVITATION.
5]  Must have a plugged oil filler cap for rocker cover if you want to quantify "blow-by" to evaluate piston ring sealing.
6]  Adaptor from engine breather(s) to blow-by gauge.
7]  adaptor from Weber carb to fuel supply, metric thread to -6 ?
8]  adaptor for oil pressure measurement, bsp thread to -4 ?
9]  adaptor for oil temp measurement ?
10]  adaptor(s) for water temp measurement, if required.  (not needed for Superflow 901 setup)
11]  various fasteners to bolt everything together, some required are the dreaded flat head socket cap screw..........
12]  anything else that I forgot or that you want to measure.

A CNC milling machine would be the tool of choice for fabricating the bellhousing adaptor, although it could be done on a "Bridgeport" type vertical mill with 2 axis digital readouts.  Other bits could be done with a regular mill, drill press, regular lathe (or CNC lathe), etc.  Some welding might be needed also.

(edit) Could produce a 2D CAD drawing in an older version of AutoCad if that would work with the CNC.  I think some require 3D CAD for input.  OR, you can have a copy of the drawing.  I MAY have some digital dimensions of the bolt holes in 2D AutoCad format, referenced to the crankshaft centerline as a datum point.

Your thoughts?
 
Michaelangeloboy, er, Dutchboy

[Milwaukee Midget]

Midget,

Today is your lucky day, sort of.......

Digging through old PHP dyno adaptor notes & drawings; AND, found drawing (non-digital) for BMC A series dyno adaptor to chevy bellhousing bolt pattern, AND, list of other adaptors required for BMC set-up.

Other required bits listed:

1]  Front motor mount adaptors.
2]  water outlet adaptor from BMC t'stat housing to dyno water outlet hose size.
3]  water pump inlet adaptor from BMC water pump to dyno water inlet hose size.  MUST BE A TAPERED ADAPTOR TO PREVENT WATER PUMP CAVITATION.
4]  water outlet manifold to combine flow from T'stat outlet & additional rear water outlet as plumbed in your car. AGAIN, MUST BE FABRICATED TO PREVENT CAVITATION.
5]  Must have a plugged oil filler cap for rocker cover if you want to quantify "blow-by" to evaluate piston ring sealing.
6]  Adaptor from engine breather(s) to blow-by gauge.
7]  adaptor from Weber carb to fuel supply, metric thread to -6 ?
8]  adaptor for oil pressure measurement, bsp thread to -4 ?
9]  adaptor for oil temp measurement ?
10]  adaptor(s) for water temp measurement, if required.  (not needed for Superflow 901 setup)
11]  various fasteners to bolt everything together, some required are the dreaded flat head socket cap screw..........
12]  anything else that I forgot or that you want to measure.

A CNC milling machine would be the tool of choice for fabricating the bellhousing adaptor, although it could be done on a "Bridgeport" type vertical mill with 2 axis digital readouts.  Other bits could be done with a regular mill, drill press, regular lathe (or CNC lathe), etc.  Some welding might be needed also.

Your thoughts?
 
Michaelangeloboy, er, Dutchboy

Such luck I have - Great - ANOTHER pile of crap I have to acquire! 

1]  Front motor mount adaptors.

As you mentioned, we can drill the front engine plate.

2]  water outlet adaptor from BMC t'stat housing to dyno water outlet hose size.

I have one of the two-piece items that were used on the 1275 Mini A+ that can be easily modified.

3]  water pump inlet adaptor from BMC water pump to dyno water inlet hose size.  MUST BE A TAPERED ADAPTOR TO PREVENT WATER PUMP CAVITATION.

We can figure this one out on the fly.

4]  water outlet manifold to combine flow from T'stat outlet & additional rear water outlet as plumbed in your car. AGAIN, MUST BE FABRICATED TO PREVENT CAVITATION.

A little trickier - lots of leftover brass fittings in the attic - hose, too - doable.

5]  Must have a plugged oil filler cap for rocker cover if you want to quantify "blow-by" to evaluate piston ring sealing.

Same piece as an MGB - I've got 3 - what color would you like?

6]  Adaptor from engine breather(s) to blow-by gauge.

The only other breather is on the cam cover, although I would like to fit something in the hole that used to house the dizzy.

7]  adaptor from Weber carb to fuel supply, metric thread to -6 ?

Hey, I've GOT a Weber!  Oh, an adapter - metric - shucks - are you sure it isn't 1/4-28?

8]  adaptor for oil pressure measurement, bsp thread to -4 ?

I have a friend who has a bunch of that stuff . . .

9]  adaptor for oil temp measurement ?

Can we check it from outside at the pan?

10]  adaptor(s) for water temp measurement, if required.  (not needed for Superflow 901 setup)

The shop can monitor that.

11]  various fasteners to bolt everything together, some required are the dreaded flat head socket cap screw..........

Just as long as I don't have to count on Fastenal getting them to me.

12]  anything else that I forgot or that you want to measure.

I whipped up a drawing for spring cups.  Outside dimension is 1.285, 1/64 chamfer.  The problem I foresee is that the bottom of the cup would have to be cut at .030, which I suspect could distort on a lathe.  I'd feel better about it at .060.  Can the valvetrain handle another .030 of packing under the spring?  I think we still have plenty of room before spring crush, and maybe a bit more pressure over the nose wouldn't be a bad thing . . . 

Anybody out there have an old SBC clutch disc we can turn down, butcher up and bore holes in to drive a dyno? 

Drop me a PM.  I want to get this done before Sanity Clause tries to stuff himself down my chimney.

 

[fordboy628]

Midget,

Yes, will need to adapt from dyno input spline to your stock clutch bolt pattern.   Method I used was to take a sprung center clutch hub of the proper spline size & make a "donut ring" adaptor from 1/8" or 3/16" mild steel.   Used a rotary table on my vertical mill to size & drill the mounting holes, but could be done on a CNC.

Dutchboy

[Milwaukee Midget]

Spring cup drawing - corrected outside diameter as per our conversation.



Fordboy - any corrections?

[Graham in Aus]

Chris / Fordboy,
                       You want the spring cups to locate the valve springs a bit better? is this 'cause you are using smaller diameter springs? or just to generally improve the location?

What about the inner spring? some 12G940 and S Heads had inner locators...... actually; thinking about it, the outer diameter of the inner locator probably fixed the position of the outer spring too?

Originally AEA403 Now replaced by this ?

http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Engine/Cylinder_heads/Valves_accessories/C-AEA654.aspx?100410&ReturnUrl=/product/Classic/C-AEA526.aspx%7CBack%20to

Am I making sense??