Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Sumner on January 14, 2008, 12:24:47 PM
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I'm starting to look at the option of using aluminum for most of my lakester body instead of fiberglass. There will be a lot of gentle compound curves and some areas that need more forming. I'm looking at 3003-H14 aluminum. I can get it in .050 and .063 and don't know which would be better for my use. I guess the .063 would be easier to weld and the .050 easier to form. Maybe some of both and use the heavier for the flatter areas and the .050 for the areas that need to be worked more?? Would I be creating a problem when joining, welding the two different thicknesses in places where they met??
Any thoughts or suggestions or who to call would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Sum
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sum i weld lots of metal together and as you know where you weld it shrinks if you hammer the weld you can stretch it back out and make it flat again that is much much easier to do when the 2 pieces are the same thickness --aluminum will work harden when you work it too much-- just fire up your torches with acetyline cover the aluminum with soot turn up the oxygen burn off the soot and the aluminum will be soft again (annealed)--3003 has good forming characteristics --the 3003 does come in O (annealed) --do you have any sheetmetal equipment willie buchta
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That sounds awfully thick!
Weren't the original sports car bodies more like .030"?
Not for weight saving, but a few hundred less hours forming?
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The .050 is not that easy to form, and the .063 is gonna be tough. Welding it is not that tough . . . if you have the knack.
The Knack (http://youtube.com/watch?v=CmYDgncMhXw)
3003 .050 is .778 lbs per sq ft., .063 .923 lbs per sq ft.
Something against fiberglass or carbon?
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sum 032 is very flimsy if you drop a wrench on it it will dent forget that--040 will weld pretty easy if you have the knack--065 is way to thick and heavy --my choice would be 050 it is pretty easy to weld it forms pretty easy and its thick enough that if you are going to leave it bare aluminum you will have enough thickness for grinding and sanding --if you are going to paint 050 would still be my choice--its strange but im getting ready to build a body for a customers lsr rig (SECRET) and iv been going over this same thing in my head for about a week and decided on 050 --the differance in weight between 040 and 050 in a 4x8 sheet is about 15 lbs just some thoughts willie buchta
p s the material will usually be a couple of thousnds thinner than advertised anyway
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sum 032 is very flimsy if you drop a wrench on it it will dent forget that--040 will weld pretty easy if you have the knack--065 is way to thick and heavy --my choice would be 050 it is pretty easy to weld it forms pretty easy and its thick enough that if you are going to leave it bare aluminum you will have enough thickness for grinding and sanding --if you are going to paint 050 would still be my choice--its strange but im getting ready to build a body for a customers lsr rig (SECRET) and iv been going over this same thing in my head for about a week and decided on 050 --the difference in weight between 040 and 050 in a 4x8 sheet is about 15 lbs just some thoughts willie buchta
p s the material will usually be a couple of thousands thinner than advertised anyway
Thanks I think if I try this I'll go with the .050. I want the 3003 since it is easy to re-anneal like you mentioned. The Ron Fournier book I have went over this process and he seems to use the .050 on a lot of his stuff. I just got an English wheel and planishing hammer, but it will be learn as I go, which is pretty usual for me. I'm getting good enough with the tig that I feel I can weld this stuff. I was going glass, but would have to wait for warm weather to go that route and with the aluminum I could start soon. If it doesn't seem to be working then I'll have some aluminum for sale :cry: and will fall back to the fiberglass.
I recently got some .090 5052 in Phoenix that I used for my water tanks. I called them a little while ago and got a price quote of $100 per 4 X 10 sheet of .050 3003-H14. How does that price compare to what you have been paying. I guess if I go this route it will be another trip to Phoenix and Sparky will have to put up with me for a day or so again :-) .
I'll look forward to seeing your "secret" project when it becomes "declassified",
Sum
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in my area they sell aluminum by the pound so it goes up and down a couple of weeks ago i paid 56 plus tax for a 4x8 sheet of 040 not too bad just buy one sheet if you can i know you are pretty far from the supplier that makes it harder are you going to the banquet on the 26th willie buchta
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Last November I was quoted aprox $103 for a 4x8 sheet of .063 3003 H-14 by a suplier here in Western MA, non stock item, usually about 2-3 day availability on special order. Price was based per pound at that time with the understanding that it could be higher or lower when we are ready to order [hopefully before spring].
This thread came at a good time for us, I had been leaning toward the .063, now will be rethinking on using the .050........
Thank you Sum for bringing it up and everyone else for your input.
Ed Purinton
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Using a tip from my uncle, I have found one of the local large metal suppliers will sell cutoffs at scrap pricing. They have large customers that need cut pieces for projects -the rest go into the scrap pile. They let me pick through their pile every now and then. I was lucky enough to find 2 - 4x8 sheets with one of the corners bent over on one, and the other scratched up pretty bad on one side. Picked up both at scrap price. It is worth a call around to ask.
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PUT UP WITH___NOTHING---we enjoy you bring SHUSH down for a visit
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in my area they sell aluminum by the pound so it goes up and down a couple of weeks ago i paid 56 plus tax for a 4x8 sheet of 040 not too bad just buy one sheet if you can i know you are pretty far from the supplier that makes it harder are you going to the banquet on the 26th willie buchta
Looks like I'll probably need at least six 4X10 sheets, so I would probably get 7-8. The car is about 22 feet long and it is aways around it. Driving 800 miles round trip to get them means I don't want to be short. Besides I have another project for the future I could use the rest for. I can get hot rolled strap, square tubing, rectangular tubing locally for less than I've found it anywhere else in the area. I have a feeling the welding shop is selling it to me at maybe cost plus 10%. Anything that is special order like cold rolled sheets and this aluminum is expensive here. The freight charges into here are really high and unpredictable. Hopefully my pickup has another 1000 miles left in it. I almost have all the parts for the new motor for it. Waiting on the JE pistons (....John Noonan :evil: ) and the machinist to quit racing in AZ and the AFR heads.
Thanks for all the advice guys, I appreciate it,
Sum
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Well I took the plunge and ordered 8 sheets of aluminum today. GH (Gary Hart) gave me the number to Metals USA outside of Kansas City, MO today (thanks Gary) and they had good pricing. $77 per sheet for 4 X 10 .050 3003-H14 and that included putting it on a pallet. The only problem was they only ship inside of Missouri. I then found freightcenter.com on the internet and got a price of $205 to get it from Missouri to SE Utah. We will see how this works as I've been burnt by freight companies before.
If anyone is interested:
Metals USA call 800-635-6061 and ask for Richard
Frieght Center call 800-716-7608 and ask for Roger ext. 1011
Both of these guys were really helpful.
c ya,
Sum
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Here's another shipping company that might be worth a try for you -- or for anyone, for that matter: www.uship.com It's sort of like an eBay for shipping. You list what you've got, where it is and where you want it to go, and various people/companies will offer prices and terms for the shipment. I've used them to ship a race bike, another guy I know got his drill press and milling machine moved by them, etc. Prices quoted for my bike move ranged from $250-700 -- and so I called a couple of the "bidders" and decided which to give the job to. All worked out okay, the stuff was on time, and no problems reported.
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Sum,
I guess that I'll just be opposite here as I would not use the.050 I would go with the .063. It is MUCH easier to weld and as for forming the stuff is so soft that you can make it go almost any where! and if you are doing any kind of forming that requires some stretching you have more material with the .063, and remember planishing and wheeling are forming methods that stretch the metal so each of them will make the material thinner. The .050 is just to flimsey, any panel that doesn't have some crown or shape to it will be real hard to keep flat without a bead or bend put in it and then when you go to weld it, it will be to thin and a real pain in the ass to weld. I don't think that the weight is a consideration but the cost will go up around 8%. Buying extra is a great idea as you will certainly use it and you will also have things like airboxes and bulk heads that you will need to fab, and bulk heads/firewalls are required to be .060.
You might also think about learning to gas weld aluminum. It is easier with the special blue welding goggles but it is not real hard and it will make a weld that is very easy to planish and make flat and it has a minmum weld build up so you have less to file off. Also you probably want to get 1100 welding rod as it is easier to file off. Make sure that you have several good vixon files ( we always called them "hungry" files, as if they bit you it was bloody!) as these are what are best to knock the weld down. Like wise on TIG welds that you can get to the back of you should back weld to make the weld strong, do this before you file the bead and planish.
Have fun. I am also planning to do my body out of aluminum and I figure by the time I'm done I will have learned alot about it and I am sure you will too!!
Rex
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Sum
Design the body so as many panels as possible are flat or curved in one direction . Curved panels are less likely to flutter . Use spacers on the dzus springs where needed so all your buttons are the same length .
On mine where possible where panels meet I riveted 1/8 x 2 backup strips on the leading edge , fastened to the car with flathead screws and with dzus springs for the panel ahead of it . Fewer exposed fasteners and the wind can't get under the leading edge .
John
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Hey Sum
Don't let them scare you buddy. Here's a piece of .050 out of my scrap pile that is greasy that I welded together. When I get a chance I'll get a beer can and weld it together, thats .005.
willie buchta 349b
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Sum,
I guess that I'll just be opposite here as I would not use the.050 I would go with the .063.
Thanks Rex, but you were a little too late as it was too late to change the order. I'll make this work and report as usual about the good along with the bad and the ugly. Looks like Fournier uses the .050 a lot. I read his gas welding a number of times, but I'll bet it is harder than he makes it out to be. Have you been successful doing it?? There is just so much control with the tig over the heat and where it is, but I do realize the gas is probably easier to work.
Sum, Design the body so as many panels as possible are flat or curved in one direction .
Thanks John, good points.
Hey Sum
Don't let them scare you buddy. Here's a piece of .050 out of my scrap pile that is greasy that I welded together. When I get a chance I'll get a beer can and weld it together, that's .005.
willie buchta 349b
Well Willie the .050 is on the way. I like this, if it doesn't work I already have someone to blame, guess who :evil: ,
c ya
Sum
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Sum,
I have gas welded 3003 even without the special blue goggles the trick is a real soft flame, 3-4 psi on the O2 and 1-2 on the acetalene. I didn't practice alot but as I said I will before I do my car. As far as the material thickness goes the .050 will be fine! I just prefer the .063.
I was taught gas welding alum. by Don Borth, now that guy could gas weld aluminum!!! when he was done the bead was flat and the two pieces looked like they just flowed into each other. Man I miss Don. He hated English wheels did everything with a big Yoder hammer. He had 3 of them and lots of special tools for each one. As I have told before Don did most of the Challenger body and I think he did some on the Golden Rod also.
Be sure to make each seam as perfect a fit to each other as possible, do lots of tack welds and DO NOT USE "GAP" ROD!! When you try to fill in aluminum with weld it makes a real mess on the inside. Don't try to tack to panels together starting in the middle, the heat will just make one panel go one way the the other the opposite!!
Rex
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Sum,
I have gas welded 3003 even without the special blue goggles the trick is a real soft flame, 3-4 psi on the O2 and 1-2 on the acetalene. I didn't practice alot but as I said I will before I do my car. As far as the material thickness goes the .050 will be fine! I just prefer the .063.
I was taught gas welding alum. by Don Borth, now that guy could gas weld aluminum!!! when he was done the bead was flat and the two pieces looked like they just flowed into each other. Man I miss Don. He hated English wheels did everything with a big Yoder hammer. He had 3 of them and lots of special tools for each one. As I have told before Don did most of the Challenger body and I think he did some on the Golden Rod also.
Be sure to make each seam as perfect a fit to each other as possible, do lots of tack welds and DO NOT USE "GAP" ROD!! When you try to fill in aluminum with weld it makes a real mess on the inside. Don't try to tack to panels together starting in the middle, the heat will just make one panel go one way the the other the opposite!!
Rex
You using a henrob or a normal gas torch??
Sum
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Some more tips on gas welding aluminum. .050 is thinnest to do easy, although back when I could see. I welded up an .032/.040 seat- cain't do it now.
3003 best for fabrication, especially when forming (planishing) will be done- hard to weld a 90 degree fillet, Forniers (sp?) books are great. Use 1100 alloy rod, or the parent metal. If you DO gas weld 6061 use 4043 rod.
Gas welds do not harden close to the joint as heliarc and make hammering seams flat an easy deal.
Tin Man Tech (look up on net) has EVERTHING you need, including instructional videos and sells the correct flux, lenses, torches, etc..
The cobalt blue lenses are dangerous- especially with blue eyed people- not sure why.
Tin Man's lenses are green like the old Burtweld.
Rex I'm impressed by your welding with conventional lenses- your teacher was one of the best-I'm a Doug Kruse-see Don Ferguson roadsters, Dynoroom new MR, etc. - and Jocko Johnson disciple.
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Thanks for the tips and link guys, I guess I'll have to try the gas. So now why did I buy the tig :roll:,
Sum
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The .050 is not that easy to form, and the .063 is gonna be tough. Welding it is not that tough . . . if you have the knack.
The Knack (http://youtube.com/watch?v=CmYDgncMhXw)
3003 .050 is .778 lbs per sq ft., .063 .923 lbs per sq ft.
Something against fiberglass or carbon?
Had to send that link to my dad!
There are some that are of the opinion that if you wreck, at least if you made the body of aluminum, nobody has to spend forever picking up shards of shredded fiberglass.
That and it smells :-)
I've never worked sheet metal like that, so going to be a tough call for me. At least I know where to ask if I booger it all up.
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Sum
I will take that crappy tig off your hands cheap :-D :-D I will even come get it,you dont have to deliver.
Phil.
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Sum,
You bought the TIG becasue you want to be able to weld "neatly"! Looking at your latest TIG welds and it is looking like you are getting the knack! and you can still do aluminum. Lots of "tin men" only use TIG on alum, Ron Covel for one and he is one of the best around today.
I have never tried a Henrob set up but have watched several at car meets and have really considered buying one. You can't have to many tools!
Rex
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Sum.
If you want to try a Henrod,I have one with all the different tips and gizmos that come with it,let me know.The little bit that I have used it,its worked very well.Talk to you soon.
Later,Phil.
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Sum.
If you want to try a Henrod,I have one with all the different tips and gizmos that come with it,let me know.The little bit that I have used it,its worked very well.Talk to you soon.
Later,Phil.
That sounds good. I have to decide if I want to spend the $125 on the shade to gas weld aluminum. Rex which one do you use and were could I find some into on Ron using the tig for panels? I did a google without much luck.
Phil I'm thinking of coming over a week from Friday and see if while I'm over there Dart can make the drive-shaft for Shaun's Z car. We finished the rear transmission mount and are almost done with the other front mount. Good luck at the auction this weekend.
c ya,
Sum
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doesnt gas welding take much more heat and warp the panel more than the tig welder maybe someone could post some pics of the gas welding and i will try to duplicate it with the tig and we could get a fair comparison i would suggest a 6 in butt weld of 050 any takers willie buchta
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I have a new Miller 350p welder its a pluse welder brand new from Miller state of the art. It will replace the tig in a few years, I have welded 20 gauge Aluminum with it hammerd the hell out of it on my Yoder it came out nice. There like a mig but its not a spoll gun. The welder knows the gauge that you are welding and adj the heat as you weld. The weld look just like tig and gos though all the way to the back side of the panel. Go to a welding show and try one. Some one told me that Miller may be this years bonneville sponsor lets hope so.
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doesnt gas welding take much more heat and warp the panel more than the tig welder maybe someone could post some pics of the gas welding and i will try to duplicate it with the tig and we could get a fair comparison i would suggest a 6 in butt weld of 050 any takers willie buchta
If you are going to work your tig welds, keep forming the panel more, can they be annealed to make them softer. Or do you not find the welds to be a problem?? Are you welding both sides when possible?? Are you filing them flat?? How about a demo??
If you get one of the metal working books out there most of the guys gas weld their body work up to .063 thickness and it looks like the trick is the right size tip, the flux, very little pressure like Rex mentioned and the right lens to see the puddle through the glow coming off of the flux. A negative seems to be cleaning up the flux.
c ya,
Sum
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Sum, Our streamliner was built by Don Nuss of Redwood Welding service in Crescent City, Ca. He uses a spool gun. I think it is more the Indian than the Arrow. Try and find what works best for you. I have all the trick gas welding supplys and still do better with the TIG.
One thing I did learn. I would be welding just fine and then it would turn ugly. I would get mad and just walk away. Go to the house, eat dinner and clean up and go back to the shop and weld great. Then the next day it would happen again sometimes. Drove me nuts. Then one day a real welder guy came by and I was asking him what was my problem. He looked at it and said " Do you have the door to the shop open in the day time and closed at night"? Of course I did, so that little bit of air flowing through the shop was messing up the gas flow to the weld. I would have never thought of that.
Doug Odom in big ditch
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the fan from the welder will do the same thing willie buchta
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Sum,
When you TIG the aluminum it will be anealed around the weld, not like alloy steel that will get hard. Another thing to watch out for is if you happen to dip your tungsten into the aluminum puddle ( I know we're not supposed to! but I am so "ham handed" that I do it on occasion.) well when you do dip it the tungsten will pick up some aluminum on it and then your weld will turn to crap! So keep the tungsten clean! Also you might want to think about a water cooled torch if you don't have one. I have found that weld quality with an air cooled degrades as you do longer welds.
Mkilger, I can remeber when I was in the aerospace tooling business Miller was developing their "pulse" type welder, at the time it was called "keyhole" welding becasue when you started welding you would blow a hole thru the metal and there would be a hole in front of the weld puddle and you would weld it shut as you progressed across the plates that you were welding together. We were doing 3/4 thick 2014 Al plate, butt welded, no bevel or prep, 100 % penatration and perfect welds. Looks like they have developed that for us common guys! I have been thinking about replacing my old Airco TIG maybe this is what I should look at.
Rex
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................. I think it is more the Indian than the Arrow. Try and find what works best for you. I have all the trick gas welding supplies and still do better with the TIG............. Doug Odom in big ditch
Great advice. I'm just getting the hang of the tig, so I'm going to stick with it unless I end up having real problems.
c ya,
Sum
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Lots of small tacks Sum and everything will go well.
Go for it!
Pete
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Sum,
Take Pete's advice, lots of small tacks. Great advice!!!
Rex
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Sumner, did you have any luck with Metals USA on your aluminum sheets?
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Sumner, did you have any luck with Metals USA on your aluminum sheets?
Yep, you must not of read the whole post. Is it cold sitting out in front of that motel hooked up to their wireless :evil: ??
Thanks for the phone number, the aluminum is suppose to be on its way to me,
Sum
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And wear a mask!!! Last weekend Dr.G was welding up our parachute binnacle and I was cooling the welds with compressed air after each spurt.
I just had protective goggles on and thought I was far enough away but now my face is one layer of skin thinner!
Don't think it helped that the binnacle was shaped like a convex mirror either...
A red faced Reverend.
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That brings up another good point. Long sleeves and a t-shirt underneath. The open neck on a shirt can leave you with a really painful vee shaped sunburn that will probably tend to purple rather than just red. Aluminum can really add to the effect.
Pete
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Another idea when you are building the body. Think about having a small spring loaded panel on each side that you can pop open without any tools like gas tank filler panels. That way if you have a fire inside the body a fire extinguisher can be quickly used from outside the car. It will also work as a burst panel.
Doug Odom in big ditch
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Another Dr. Gog's technique is to clean a quarter inch of the edge to be welded with a small sand blast gun.
Scuffs the sheen off the surface quick and easy and the welding seems smoother.
Not practical for all situations, as you need to step outside the shed to clean parts (sand everywhere).
On the plus side: more tools!!
One small sand blast gun please.
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Aluminum body is a great for bodies... it has lesser weight... but it is more expensive than steel plates...
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aluminum plate (http://www.preciseplate.com)
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One other thing to look at when tig welding aluminum. Anyone that tig welds aluminum knows how important it is to get the aluminum as clean as possible. One other thing that can cause you a problem is how clean the filler rod is. If you have ever been welding and for no known reason your weld turns black and dirty, you may want to check the filler material. Sometimes when the filler rod is packaged it has tape wrapped around the bundle at the ends and in the middle. What happens is some of the glue in the tape can be left on the rod when you remove the tape. You may not see this but when you get to that spot on the rod you start burning the glue and now your weld is contaminated and will get really ugly. This can trash a good part that you have spent several hours or days working. What I do before using any of my filler material is I clean each rod with lacquer thinner. Now this may seem like a lot of trouble but believe me, cleaning up that nasty weld will be much harder. JMO
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Sum,
Talking about your lakester body, how is it going??? Any progress?
Rex
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Sum,
Talking about your lakester body, how is it going??? Any progress?
Rex
Yes, I've finally got bact to work on it this past week almost every day. I need to update the site. Here are a couple teasers until I can get the site updated,
Sum
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Are we going to get to see you run this year? I sure hope so.
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Are we going to get to see you run this year? I sure hope so.
Fred I hope so, but I'm not promising anything yet. Are you coming by this way again? We hope so :-D.
Sum
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Sum, we are planning leaving here Wed the 5th, want to make Friday tech.We will have to see if we will be able to stop and visit. Will you still be around on Thurs the 6th? Or are you going to make the thurs tech.
Fred
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Sum, we are planning leaving here Wed the 5th, want to make Friday tech.We will have to see if we will be able to stop and visit. Will you still be around on Thurs the 6th? Or are you going to make the thurs tech.
Fred
Right now I think we are drving up on Thurs. and do the pit setup and hopefully tech, at least for the stude,
Sum
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................. I think it is more the Indian than the Arrow. Try and find what works best for you. I have all the trick gas welding supplies and still do better with the TIG............. Doug Odom in big ditch
Great advice. I'm just getting the hang of the tig, so I'm going to stick with it unless I end up having real problems.
c ya,
Sum
I learnt to Tig , so I could do the body on our tank.........thinking it would be a whole lot better. The few remnants of sanity I had went and hid. After years of welding filthy ,feeble steel on old car panels with the Mig the one talent I did have was managing heat in thin plate....after having a bash ( excuse me) with a Mig set up for Al I decided to go and get all the necessarys to set my welder up for aluminium. The one huge advantage of the Mig is it can fill gaps, if you have a blow out( and welding a fifty year old al wing-tank there's a good chance there will be some) it is possible to fight your way back, if you're using the Tig you need to stitch something in to fill any sort of sizeable gap.
The other plus is the expendables( tips, etc) are cheaper for the Mig....and manifold building is a breeze with the Mig...I wouldn't stake my life on the strength of these welds but for the stuff I've mentioned it really ain't critical .