Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: JohnR on January 02, 2006, 12:09:00 PM
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I am looking for information on early (1935 and before) Ford 4 cylinder flathead engines.
My current knowledge basically consists of:
1. They have "flat" heads (whatever that means)
2. They are not V8's
Specifically I am looking for a book that documents installing a late model Honda DOHC VTEC head, Big turbo and EFI onto one (thats a joke).
Anybody have any links? I have searched till I am blue and can only find V8 stuff.
Thanks!
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Check with Roy Creel, he runs them
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http://users.aol.com/gmaclaren/dyno.html This is on Model B engines, search under model A for earlier info or contact one of the vintage 4 racers
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another link for you...
http://www.secretsofspeed.com/
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John,
Go to the "Automotive Book Store" in Burbank, can't remember the street, but they have some magazines put out by the guys that still work on A and B motors. Neat store, if you haven't been there make sure that you have lots of time as they have almost every magazine and book ever written about cars.
Rex
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The store is:
Auto-Aero Books, on Magnolia, East of Hollywood Way in Burbank.
Email Jim Miller, he has been picking up copies of the magazine Rex mentioned.
miller212.842@sbcglobal.net
DW
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Hey Rex, do ya think they have many motorcycle books?
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1212FBGS,
If its got wheels they have books on it, tons of motorcycle stuff, both racing and street. As I said before, if you haven't been there make sure that you have lots of time! When ever I go to LA LA land I set aside at least 3 hours for my visit. The place is really bitchen!!!
Rex
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Plus a Koffee Klatch on Saturday mornings 8-10. You may have celebrity present if your into that sort of thing.
DW
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John,
Enough BS! From the man that got 600 hps from a 1500 cc rice burner what in the hell are you looking at a B motor for!!!??? Valves are in the wrong place and the crank has only got 3 main bearings! 25 psi of boost will just jack it out of the block, which of course is cracked because it is 74years old!!!! But if you made it work it would really be something!
John, tell us your plan.
Rex
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Rex, you give me too much credit!
The reason I am looking at the B is because I honestly don't know anything about them. My initial post was pretty much accurate. I know the heads are flat! Thats about it!
I just think it would be fun to come at the problem (making HP) from a totally different angle. Doing the flathead four seemed like such a quantum leap from my present car that it intrigues me.
Making the HP with the Honda is easy. It revs to the moon and the stock head breathes better than most high dollar aftermarket Chevy heads. All that is gone (long gone!) if I start with a B.
I thought it would be neat to take a B, make a crank girdle, put a good set of rods and pistons in it. Probably have to run an external oil pump, Make a new high compression head and do up a neat I-R fuel injection manifold & header and see what it will do. Honestly, I will probably find that it makes less HP than what others have done in the past but I will enjoy doing it and learn something. Then I'll throw a big ass turbo on it!
But, all that is in the future. Right now, the Civic is parked, patiently waiting for the first event in May. I am spending all my time on my drag racing minivan (1989 Dodge Caravan!!!). I need to get the new turbo motor done and back in within the next month or so. That way I have time to make a few runs and blow it up before I switch back to SCTA runnning. I won't start then B project (if at all) untill I finish (i.e. blow up) the Caravan. But that should only take a couple of months.
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John what body would you run the V4 in. If I read the rules right you can only run the turbo in a lakester or streamliner and I believe the same for EFI. It does look like you could run maybe a centrifugal blower or a small roots as there are records with those.
Blown fuel streamliner is only 99 mph and blown gas is 86 mph where as the un-blown in those two classes is over 200. I think I would know where I would concentrate my efforts 8) .
Looks like the above is also true in the lakester class. You could make a pretty quick streamliner or lakester, maybe it would fit in mine :D. I converted the datsun IRS rear for chain drive, but I have a second one and it could go in the other ones place in the car and provide normal drive shaft drive.
c ya and it will be interesting to see what you do. Personally I think you still have about another 150 hp left in your current motor and a 220 mph run,
Sum
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John what body would you run the V4 in. ...
Personally I think you still have about another 150 hp left in your current motor and a 220 mph run,
Sum
I have not really decided what I will do with the V4. Right now it is more of an engineering exersize than a practical one. Since I am (at heart) an EFI & Turbo guy, the only SCTA option is really Streamliner or Lakester. But, There is a very real chance this will end up as a roadster engine for a street car and then run it as time only at El Mirage just to see what it is capable of.
I have no intention of leaving the Honda "as-is". It is my primary car and even with the current power levels, has at least a 205 MPH run in it. You are right about the available power, it is in it's most conservative tune. The wastegate was running "on the spring". I could not turn the boost down anymore!
The trouble is that Bonneville only comes twice a year and the car is ready to run NOW!. I am sitting here with all sorts of time and my ADD (attention deficit disorder!!) is making me need to start my next project!
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But, There is a very real chance this will end up as a roadster engine for a street car and then run it as time only at El Mirage just to see what it is capable of.
Take the motor out of the lakester or Streamliner the rest of the year and put it in that roadster.
The trouble is that Bonneville only comes twice a year and the car is ready to run NOW!. I am sitting here with all sorts of time and my ADD (attention deficit disorder!!) is making me need to start my next project!
You can always come to Utah and help me :roll: .
c ya, Sum
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You should be aware that all flathead bangers that I have seen have 2 intake ports. May make an IR injection setup more work than you planned. Most OHV converted bangers have 5 main bearing conversions installed. Per Chrysler Corp Dodge Bros. 4s came with 5 mains.
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Thats pre Chrysler corp
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May make an IR injection setup more work than you planned.
Rich,
This whole project is more work than I planned! But thats OK :lol:
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I am sure you are aware that the V4F class is, at this time, limited to modified roadsters. If you install one in some other body type you will run against OHV and OHC bangers. They are much faster. Of course in the blown classes the records are pretty low or nonexistant. All the cars that are running now have Ford engines, save one loser using a Plymouth. Chevy fours were always OHV. If you feel like making chips anyway, I'd look for a Dodge.
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Yes, the V4F is an El Mirage only class right now. If it becomes a Bonneville Class then that just opens up more avenues.
I figured I would try it as a flathead first. If not, I actually do have a few of the Honda heads in the garage. The Honda is a B series engine so I assume it should bolt right up to Ford B series engine right? Thats what the B signifies isn't it??? :o
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Hopefully when they vote tomorrow the V4F class will be approved for Bonneville. Maybe at the same time, more body classes will be allowed for V4F
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(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvilleother/ovh-conversion-1.jpg)
If I remember right the head in the picture didn't come on that motor. Maybe the car owner or someone else can elaborate on what they did.
There are 2 more pictures ( HERE (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvilleother/page%203.html) ).
c ya, Sum
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The angle the engine's sitting kinda reminds me of Creel's (speaking of 4-Bangers) after he added the crankcase ventilation.
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I don't know whats wrong with my eyes but I count 6 exhaust ports and 6 intake ports.
The pictured engine is a GMC with a 12 port head, either a Wayne, Howard or some other. It could also be a Wayne Chev angled intake ports would be the identifier for this head. The GMC 12 ports had the intake ports perpendicular to the head.
DW
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I don't know whats wrong with my eyes but I count 6 exhaust ports and 6 intake ports.
The pictured engine is a GMC with a 12 port head, either a Wayne, Howard or some other. It could also be a Wayne Chev angled intake ports would be the identifier for this head. The GMC 12 ports had the intake ports perpendicular to the head.
DW
Dan, yes it is a 6. I think it had a Datsun/Nissan or Toyoto head on it. I didn't mean to represent it as a 4, but the possibilities John has with a head of a different make, like he was kidding (maybe not) about the Honda head on the Ford 4.
c ya, Sum
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Sum,
These GMC and Chevy six's with 12 port heads where the nastiest sounding cars I ever heard. I saw two of them go off together at the Santa Ana drags in the early 50's and still haven't forgot the sound.
The early Toyota jeep type(land crusiers?)came with what looked exactly like a Chevy to me. The rocker arm cover looks like a original GMC part on the car in your picture.
The Ford A and B's where fun in their day but most people who compete with the flatheads just must have a love affair going with them. Cheers to them all!! :wink:
Hitz
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I think I screwed up :oops: , easy for me to do. I think the picture I posted might not be the car I was thinking of. The one I was thinking of I thought had a flathead 6 motor that the person had converted a cam in the head DOHV head to from an import. This one does look to be a push rod OHV motor. Dan you are probably right about the heads and block :wink: .
c ya, Sum
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Looks like Ferguson,s XX/MR to me. If you want pictures of bangers with other than OEM heads look up the F.A.S.T. people. I guess they have a web page. Anyone want a Plymouth OHV conversion using a Y block head, with Hilborns, Cheap. Must pickup. Contact me.
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www.hotforhotfours.com or email jimb3@earthlink.net to subscribe
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Or maybe Keith Young's car
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It is my understanding that V4F classes have been approved for almost all body styles, for Bonneville and El Mirage. This is good news I think.
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8) Had my memory jogged last night. A fellow was here a few years back who said his buddy had prints or had setup to put 5 main cranks in these eng's. he was running #834 B/BGCC [shorty's] and one of his friends was running #3691 D/FR. I thing they were both from San Diego area. One of these guys should be able to supply helpful info.
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8) Got to thinking of idea had years ago[have been told us guys up N have to much time on our hands in winter and spend it wearing our brains smooth] I had an A block all ready to weld 4 ex stacks on cyls below water jacket and cut in ports. next was to get cam to use all valves as intake[at time could find no one to do cam] thus a gmc type 2 stroke model A. Don't know how this would fit into rules on salt but could remain flat head but would ruquire a huffer to run.Side note.. these eng had good torque, old mans spray plane had one in & swung a 76" banks& maxwell prop, Locals cast finned al heads without water, and got by just running water in block, they upped C/R &cracked a few pistons though..russ
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I built one of those positive displacement 2 strokes from a Crosly in HS. I had a supercharger from an MG and another crank case bolted on up side down like a barrel for an OFFY. I made my own cam and we ran it in a Cracker Box boat but it was too peaky and wanted to cavitate the prop or sink the boat. The early top ends were furnace brazed together and you could do anything you wanted to them.
It sure made a lot of power and was very loud. :wink:
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:?: Cool couldn't you cam it to tame it down and spread power range? we always figured the noise would be the best part, figured that if we dumped in enough fuel starter{dirt track] would be standing there with smooking stick.
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Hey, I was in HS.
Noise and power were the objective.
I just barely got the boat guys to try it and they had so much fall down fun they didn't care about no mellow usability.
When I first got it started after school in Auto shop the office called the Fire Dept.
When they got there they had me start it again to be sure that is what it was.
I kinda gotta believe they enjoyed it as much as I did. It helps to know the fire captain.
I only ran it 1 more time at school with permission at lunch break the next day. Did I mention I did a valve job for the Vice Principal ?
One of my few "A" grades was in that class but they made me promise a lota stuff first. The negotiation started with jail time and went up from there. :wink:
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Jack, your engine really sounds like a great project, I just didn't realize that there were actually gasoline powered engines when you were in high school, I thought it was still steam! Just kidding that reallys sounds like a great project.
I read an article in the Smithsonian airplane mag a couple of years ago about some of the big recip engines that were being developed at the end of WWII and it seems that Rolls Royce developed a big, several thousand cubic inches, blown two stroke and it was LOUD!! They but the dyno into a special built concrete brick building and the thing knocked the building down!!
Rex
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:lol: What coidence, I was in HS when the 2 strk A seemed like a good idea , sounds like it was lucky for me local school had no shop,and I didn't have stuff to carry out idea, would you happen to rember what you used for ign tmg? and how you arrived at it? russ Side note; steam isn't that funny, at one time we were going to bld a steam puller tractor but instead of steam use compressed air bottles, bolt wheels right to crankshaft.
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The reason I used the early Crosly was the head and barrels were furness brazed from steel parts that were less likely to crack like the later ones and and A motor.
As for the timing I turned the distributor until it ran the best and called it good. I sorta advanced it until the flame out the pipe was down and I figured that meant most of it was happening inside.
This was not a Science project but more of a bravado deal to get me out of the coaches hair and gym with the ROTC bunch because I was not on a team. If we didn't have a hot project going at the time we would catch a ROTC wimp and push him into the wrestling room with those animals. :wink:
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JacK,
...as someone else said,
..I did not know that the invention of gasoline had yet occured,
...back when you were in school.
I too had a crosley when young,
I still have it somewhere...
my father said that they used to call them a "mini-miller"......back in the day...
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Multi row spiral radial aircraft engines were pretty cool. The exhaust was silenced in large part by the wind from the prop but the exhaust system was no more than a deal to get the bad air out of the plane.
A 2 stroke sounds like the obvious answer to a question that everybody was afraid to ask. Well almost everybody anyway.
When Nissan Electromotive was building race stuff they had a dyno for everything. As you suspect they made a lot of noise. Permits were a big deal and not every city was the same. They built their industrial park in the city of Vista with the Dyno and the exhaust was across the line in San Marcos. Just like any other rules, they read them first and then went and did it.
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Hitz,
Toyota bought the tooling for the early Chevy 6 cyl to make the Land Cruiser engine, that is why it looks so much like one. That is also why it was so easy to bolt a chevy small block into one. The key was "bolt in", everything matched. My dad was a Toyota dealer in the mid 60's.
Doug
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Since I cant find my rulebook at work today - Can you use a Donovan -D block and run under the V4F class?
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As always I am not speaking for the SCTA, but the answer is NO. No replica blocks allowed in V4.
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As usual, Rich in not speaking official SCTA talk is correct. V4 & V4F blocks have to be OEM.
DW
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Maybe you should look into a Plymouth block? Or Dodge if you want 5 mains.
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.....is there a problem with welding or bolting in the added main saddles...?
I seem to rember it being done before....
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No problem. You are right, many of the V4 cars have 5 main cranks. The V4F guys were susposed to stick with OEM bottom ends, but there is no rule stopping someone from adding bearings
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I saw the added main bearing in common use for LSR over 50 years ago.
If that means anything, it is likely not to change for the cars. :wink:
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V4F guys were susposed to stick with OEM bottom ends
It depends on whats "OEM". Running a stock casting for the block is OEM enuf for me. changing the main caps, changing the bearing design, adding a girdle etc... is called hot rodding!
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At the time the class was being discussed there was a "gentleman's agreement" that 5 main bearing cranks would not be installed in engines that came with 3 mains. Girdles or other stiffening modifications were not mentioned to me. There is no rule that I know of stopping anyone from installing a 5 main crank in a flathead V4.
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Let's see if I got it.
Poured bearings, dipper caps, and cotter pins are all set.
What do you mean they never require anybody to pull the pan ?
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Poured bearings, dipper caps, cotter pins? What are you talking about? That may be true for Ford guys, but not me. And yes I still have the seal on my pan from the first day the V4F class was run. What's to look at? I saw it all when I put it togeather.
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At the time the class was being discussed there was a "gentleman's agreement" that 5 main bearing cranks would not be installed in engines that came with 3 mains. Girdles or other stiffening modifications were not mentioned to me. There is no rule that I know of stopping anyone from installing a 5 main crank in a flathead V4.
But Rich,
I cant run 30 psi boost without 5 mains!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you want me to twittle about with 100 hp? :o
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Forward thinking will often get you ahead.
Some of the "Gentlemen" want you to wait up for them.
To save time we are going to cut the main bearing caps right into the pan. We will have to do the finish grinding after heat treat. We estimate the pan should weigh about 80 pounds. The big decision is to go with 4120 or 4340. In keeping with tradition we are going with 3 main bearings, the other two will be secondary. LOL :wink:
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As of this year there is a Blown Vintage Flathead Four engine class. I would assume that you can have as many main bearings as you can get in the thing. The V4F class was supposed to be more or less true to pre-war type engines. More or less. When I was running the OHV V4 Ply. I converted one to a two main engine at about the mile. It was a pretty advanced design with variable displacement. This was the Blizzard meet. I was so cold I just wanted to go home anyway. My next OHV Ply lasted a little longer and when it went out in a blaze of glory I built the flatmotor.
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Jack,
There is no comparison between a 4100 steel and a 4300 series for your application. The 4300, i.e. 4340, series is the best reasonably available steel for any part that is going to be machined from a pretty big chunk. It machines well and heat treats well also and will give the very best life while providing the best strenght and toughness. Usually the chromium 4100 steels are used for thin sections, tubing, sheet etc where as the nickel based 4300s are for thick sections that are going to have some serious machining and heat treating done to them. I know that I am probably not telling you anything new but my experience with 4340 and 300 M (triple vacume melted 4340) have been so outstanding I would not even consider anything else. I only use the 4100 series for frames and brackets.
Rex
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That secondary bearing idea bears looking into, Yogi. Maybe that's what the Hardly guys need.
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Pulling legs to the edge of wetness is an art that few have mastered.
I have a lot of faith in you guys. :wink:
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......??
HUMM........???
...but the "half saddle main" additions built into the oil pan is nothing new.
....even my dad did that back in the '40's
it was made out of just plain o'l 1025 or 1040 astm steel..there was just about NO 4130 /4340 back before the war.
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...JACK,
a good and healty dose of good old cooking oil or just plain 'ol GREASE will make the tail grabbing and leg pulling exercise a LOT more interesting...
........the sharpness of the PULL,
...and / or the amount that it is pulled will usually determine the results of the reaction....
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If You guys don't already know Stan and Ron, that is probably good.
Just let it go at that. 8)