Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Bob Drury on March 13, 2006, 02:54:16 PM
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I hate to keep beating a seemingly dead horse, but with the recent anouncement that the Artic Tundra Tire LSR project is dead, I want to propose what I think is the only possible way to build tires for our needs. I think we need to accept the fact that no for profit business will ever again build LSR tires for above 300 mph, because of the Legal problems involved. I believe that the only recourse is for SCTA to build or purchase existing molds (the Arctic Tundra 30" outer mold is built). I do not know if Cooper tire destroyed the M/T molds, and if not, maybe the SCTA could purchase them, and remove the M/T name from the molds. I fear that unless the SCTA or some other NON PROFIT takes this challange on, Streamliners and Comp Coupes will soon become things of the past. Perhaps the money could be raised by outside sources(members of BNI and SCTA), but run thru a not for profit corperation. These are just my thoughts, but we need to act before our sport suffers the consequences. Bob Drury
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Bob you are right something will probably have to be done if we want to see the fast cars run. I even worry about Goodyear pulling the plug on the current landspeed tires at some point since the sale of these tires must be on the order of 1 millionth of a percent of their yearly sales. I hope sometime to buy a couple extra and stockpile them. It is a scary thought to think a mistake at home, on the road, or on the track could ruin a tire and you would have to park the car you have a lot of time and money into :cry: .
The problem is the mentality of people now who don't want to take any blame for anything and feel someone else is responsible for them and needs to pick up the tab, sue, if something goes wrong. Unfortunately this attitude will probably not go away. I see guys who are all against suing, but as soon as something happens to them or one of their buddies the sue word comes right up. The other problem is you or I might not do anything, but if we aren't around no telling what our families might do.
And the last problem is there is no sure fire way to escape the liability problem as no matter how you structure the organization, non-profit, not for profit, etc., a lawyer can always go after the individuals in the organization if they can't get to the organization itself. I'm not saying they will win, but it could cost you an awful lot to keep from losing :cry: .
It is a sad situation and I hope an answer can be found for it. I'm all for doing anything I can to help you or whoever find a solution.
Thanks for bringing it up,
Sum
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Marvin Rifchen, founder of M&H is likely still available as a consultant to interested parties wanting to build LSR tires. Marvin knows who to go to to design molds, tire building machines, where to get things engineered and accomplished around Akron, etc., etc.
The late John Beckett and a few of us made some progress in the direction of a non-profit a couple of years ago before the Oregon potential tire source came into play. Sorry about that. If anyone is really interested, it is my opinion that the way to get tires is for someone to actually go visit Marvin in Watertown, Massachusetts and draw out a game plan regarding where to find a designer for the required molds and tire building machines and how to test the tires. A complete flow chart without deadlines. The old technology is still representative in the tires people are using right now. Go with what works and don't try to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. Counting on Cooper may not be prudent.
If the SCTA is non-profit, is it possible they will research and develop tires "in the interest of improving safety and promoting an amateur sport"? That criteria was necessary for the non-profit status when Mr. Beckett and I were working on the tire issue. Having a non-profit to do this is the first step, the second step being to solicit enough private or corporate donations big enough to do the job. Maybe Cooper would like a tax write-off . . . . .
There have been several specific ideas put to paper on how to make this work, should this non-profit tire source get pursued. And don't forget M/C tires.
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the scta could fund it!
the last I heard they had a crap load of dough setting in bank accounts! should they? probably, if they really are racers interested in racing and the continued growth of the premier classes in there venue. should they help the racers who fund them in going dangerously fast? probably not! should they continue to promote and support boring slow speed records we can currently get tires for? probably, better for the insurance premiums! but will people stop showing up to the races because they cant see 300, or 400mph vehicles race? wait, what spectators? silly me! Will the SCTA step up? probably not! Are you a racer? do ya wanna race? Sell your 300+ cars while ya can! build a roadster ta go 200 or whatever ya can put a drag tire on cuz that's all there will be in the future... think about it!
kr
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I believe the SCTA underwrote the work on the new tires in Oregon, or otherwise worked closely at their own expense with that potential manufacturer. The molds may cost $20-40K for each size, but used tire building machines might be found around in Akron if they haven't gone to the scrappers. I prolly wouldn't turn the actual building of LSR tires over to just anyone. Unless you want to give them the "Maypop" brand name.
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Welcome to the 70s.
SCTA/BNI did it before with borrowed money and now they are positioned
to do it again for in house cash.
You have to get the ***ADMINISPHERE to get off their duff and get it done.
Life does not revolve around the High Boy Roadster or Castles on the lake.
***ADMINISPHERE: The rarified organizational layers beginning just above the rank and file.
Decisions that fall from the ADMINISPHERE are often profoundly inappropriate or irrelevant to the problems they were designed to solve. :wink:
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Fulda just made some high speed tires for a jubilee edition of a streamlined Maybach. Perhaps our friend Schweinefleishpastete, I mean Pork Pie, might discern if they would be open to manufacturing LSR tires in small lots. More likely one of the East European countries would have the capability to do small lots of quality tires to order. I'd first Czech the quality of tires from Slovakia.
One can buy a container load of LSR tires ordered to a specification from China. But only a container minimum. And no test prototypes. The suppliers are interested in volume orders. Kinda' spendy for 700 or 1000 Maypops if they won't do the job.
There is no commercial venture opportunity here. It's going to be heavily subsidized charity work. What better do-good cause than saving LSR from slow speeds?
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Not sure if it has been mentioned before, but how about Coker Tire? They build shorter runs of just about any odd-ball tire ever used on vintage cars, it seems they should have the expertise to do low volume production of what we need.
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Hi Guys,
As I recall, there is going to be some testing done on tires that are already made, by private individuals. The tests to my knowledge have not been done yet, but when I hear the results I will let you know.
Regards,
Tom Gerardi
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I've seen very nice stuff from the Czech republic. there are a lot of cold war missile companies there that do some really beautiful Ti and carbon work I would trust they would make it to exact specs. as for china? I wouldn't race on no thin from china. they have a bad habit of giving you what they think is cost effective instead of what you spec ed out, the bait and switch thing they are famous for. There is many qualified tire people in the states that can do the tires, the problem is, they want money for there hard work. Who will step up and pay for it? 20 to 40k is not a problem for the SCTA, they got the dough. will they do it? I don't know should they? I think so. what are they gonna do with all the dough they are sitting on? well, put a nice mobile home on some land with a nice big barn to start with. boy I wish they would kick back some of that dough to us racers who supported and funded them. but for now, sell your fast stuff you wont be able to race it for long.
kr
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by the way. I'm looking for a couple of those old 5" dragster tires and wheels anybody know where I can find them?
kent
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test
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Leon, I think you are missing the point here. I don't beleive ANY "for profit" company will ever again build LSR tires. Two years ago M/T were ready to ship tires to about 30 of us. The very day they were to ship, The lawyers for the new parent company, Cooper Tire, took a look at the six page release that each of us had signed, and said NFW. They said there are NO RELEASE FORMS that would clear them or any other Company from liability in a court of law. I am not sure, but I think that Arctic Tundra Tire received the same advice from their lawyers. Perhaps a foreign entity could avoid this problem, I don't know. This I do know, unless we, the racers, get a grip on this, the days of cars running over 300 are limited. I don't forsee the need for these tires personally, but I care about this sport more than anything I have ever done, and I don't think some people understand just how dire this situation is......................
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Any company that wants do do long term business with another will have the Lawyers from that other company also looking at the long term viability of the people they are doing business with.
For example the tire deal might have been a liability that MT sold to Cooper and the Atty for Pep Boys raised the flag to say NFW.
If the other guy had a silent partner or even a line of credit at the bank the stop might have originated there also. :wink:
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Perhaps a foreign entity could avoid this problem, I don't know. This I do know, unless we, the racers, get a grip on this, the days of cars running over 300 are limited. I don't foresee the need for these tires personally, but I care about this sport more than anything I have ever done, and I don't think some people understand just how dire this situation is......................
Goodyear was making the landspeed tires in I think Chili until they brought the operation back here this past year. Seems like it might be pretty hard to sue a foreign entity. Good idea Bob :D . If someone here (say SCTA or someone else) had the molds they would probably have to sell them to said company to completely divorce themselves from the deal for liability purposes and that might be a little tricky as then you would loose control of what might happen to those molds in the future.
I don't have the courage or probably the equipment to run over 300, but I sure do like watching other guys and gals do it :D . Last year seemed really flat with no fast runs taking place. Running over 200 is quite an accomplishment, but I'm spoiled and want to see cars run over 300 and even over 400.
c ya, Sum
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Leon, I think you are missing the point here.
Now I see what you're talking about. I didn't look at it that way before.
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I spent two hours speaking with a tire executive today. Bleak is what I would term the outlook for Big Rubber help, here or abroad.
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I spent two hours speaking with a tire executive today. Bleak is what I would term the outlook for Big Rubber help, here or abroad.
One thing I forgot when I was talking about the overseas manufacture is that someone here still has to sell them. To do that you need someone who has no assets. I don't have any money, but I do have some assets I don't want to lose at this point in my life.
It is a shame there is no way to get around the liability thing. People are their own worst enemies sometimes :cry:
c ya, Sum
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Liability can extend to the people that specify a particular product for use in their program.
The protection you think you have is all still subject to the Judicial System.
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Is "the club" actively in talks with any tire manufacturer at this time? It took one phone call to come up with that company in Oregon that apparently is not panning out. Too bad. We can keep trying.
If an LSR tire manufacturer can be found, here or abroad, with whom at the club should they communicate? Will the tires have to be subsidized? Is there money to underwrite tires?
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KH,
OH YEAH! there is plenty of SCTA money to subsidize the tire problem.
I went to Germany a couple of years ago for a motorcycle show, i approached a cool helmet manufacturer to be an importer to the US They said NFW they were not interested in doing business in sue happy America. That was Shark helmets and they do a very good business in Europe and still wont sell to the US. I talked to an Italian light manufacturer and they said the same thing. alto you think it may be hard to sue a foreign company I think the hardest thing is to get them interested in doing business in our sue happy society. Lawyers screwed us without a kiss. Oh yeah the SCTA did get involved in a tire deal a while back. It was a back door deal to keep the lawyers out of SCTA pockets if something went wrong. the whole thing did go south and it turned out ugly. will they get involved again? probably not! Back to racers trying to help themselves and other racers. like I said, sell your fast cars to someone who doesn't know and start racing a slow door slammer.
kr
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Sum
They don't need a fall guy. It can be done easily with a standard Nevada "S" corp. All corporate officers are judgment proof unless found that there actions were deliberate or criminal. The new corp can be given a Grant loan for say $250k from lets say the SCTA and all the tires bought. when the tires are sold the grant loan can be paid back with interest and even the officers can profit through salaries. everything cool until someone dies and the survivors decide to sue the new Nevada tire distributor. no problem the tire corp can pay a small insurance premium or umbrella policy to indemnify all the corporate officer. actually the tire corp won't really need to pay an attorney a dime they just ignore the suit and allow a judgment against the Nevada corp cuz they don't own anything they have a large secured debt on the grant loan and the grant-or called the note and seized all the tire inventory! all is well in shifty lawyer land. but the real problem is that the scumbag attorneys will name the tire "MAKER" in the suit. these are the guys that don't want to roll over and give up anything even to an attorney to defend the action. the real deal is we can't convince any tire maker to make us anything even for stupid expensive money. not here in the states or elsewhere. We can not indemnify or promise them that they won't spend a dime in attorneys fees to defend against an action. there afraid... were screwed. sell your shit, go slow.
kr
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I know a few folks have experimented with belts for tires. Has anyone given thoughts to rubber covered (about .100" thick or so vulcanized to the "wheel") aluminum "tires"? I mean we run 'em at 120psi anyway so they might as well be solid.
A few guys run solid aluminum fronts and I haven't heard whether they are worse the same or better than rubber for steering. Perhaps the future is in aluminum "tires" with some kind of tread machined/knurled into the surface? Something a machine shop with a 30" lathe could do?
Recently Michelin debuted an airless tire that looked like a bunch of rubber spokes attached to a rubber belt for tread. I realized that even with Perry Riches legal advice we may still have a tough time finding a manufacturer. So perhaps there is a more "home grown" solution. Isn't what hot rodders are famous for? Let's think outside the box. To put a JackD spin on it, how about hovercraft?
Let's see... top fuel tires go 320 mph "all the time". And they grow as the speed goes up helping the ratio. Would seem to me that the tire guys could pull some spacers out of their rear tires to get 'em skinnier, or add a little strength to their front runners to make the numbers we need. I mean don't drag racers cause legal issues? I mean if you want to talk about a motor sport that is "out there" look at Top Fuel and Funny Cars. The attorneys must have worked something out with those guys. And they make some of the stuff we do look pretty high school.
Oh well.....
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I mean don't drag racers cause legal issues? I mean if you want to talk about a motor sport that is "out there" look at Top Fuel and Funny Cars. The attorneys must have worked something out with those guys. And they make some of the stuff we do look pretty high school.
Oh well.....
They go through LOTS more tires, thus lots more profits to pay for lawyers, insurance, etc.. At least that is my guess.
Kent I think you live too close to Jack. I know there was some good ideas in your post and possible a solution or close to one, but I couldn't quite figure it all out :? . Just when I thought you had a solution you took the air out of it :cry: . Maybe I could get Jack to explain it :roll: . I guess I'll be on the leading edge of the new car owners since my car will be slow :wink: .
How about your Nevada corp. idea where when you buy tires you also buy stock in the corporation. Then you couldn't sue yourself if something went wrong 8) .
c ya, Sum
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As for the tire design mentioned, all have them have been tried with various degrees of failure by some pretty sharp people.
TF rear tires don't go 320 all the time. They only run close to that speed for less than 1/2 a second and are starting to fail at that.
Belted rims have been tried , most recently by Bruce Crower. It was so good in theory but in practice it was the only modern narrow liner that you have ever seen do a flat spin.
Aluminum tread wheels will only work slightly for steering on a car but not on the front of a bike because there is no contact patch for lateral traction. They won't transmit power for the same reason. Preshaped aluminum must displace the salt to the point they have enough contact to work and that won't happen without leaving a substantial mark on the surface of the track and consume a lot of power along the way.
The tires you have seen go the fastest are very close to the correct design. Getting them built is the problem and the liability has to be taken in house or you can just forget it.
Inspite of the stiffness of the cord construction or the support of the air, pneumatic tires really do paw the ground and provide traction as long as the suspension and surface will allow them to stay on the ground.
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KH,
OH YEAH! there is plenty of SCTA money to subsidize the tire problem.
I went to Germany a couple of years ago for a motorcycle show, i approached a cool helmet manufacturer to be an importer to the US They said NFW they were not interested in doing business in sue happy America. That was Shark helmets and they do a very good business in Europe and still wont sell to the US. I talked to an Italian light manufacturer and they said the same thing. alto you think it may be hard to sue a foreign company I think the hardest thing is to get them interested in doing business in our sue happy society. Lawyers screwed us without a kiss. Oh yeah the SCTA did get involved in a tire deal a while back. It was a back door deal to keep the lawyers out of SCTA pockets if something went wrong. the whole thing did go south and it turned out ugly. will they get involved again? probably not! Back to racers trying to help themselves and other racers. like I said, sell your fast cars to someone who doesn't know and start racing a slow door slammer.
kr
Gee Kent, you sure they were saying no to U.S. sales or just no to you?
As far as SCTA cash dollars go the way I do the math if we spent every dollar we had on tires you would be left with none. Example 200 tires @ $500 each = $100,000.00. This does not include development or testing. I do think the club should spend "some" money to help with the problem but not every dime, another year or two of rain outs and we'll be in debit again.
I also don't think spin testing is the right kind of testing, we need to load the tire too if were going to be able to give any kind of recommendation on speed. There are laboratories (Smithers Scientific for one) that do automotive testing and even have a 20' dia. drum that can spin tires to very high speeds AND load them.
As far as NHRA fuelers go just last year Darrell Russell was killed in a "tire" mishap, the legal issues are far from over on that one.
This is a very tough problem but it is being worked on, just because it's not in the headlines doesn't mean nothing is being done. If you don't think some folks with big $$ are looking at a solution (Herbert for one) your misinformed.
Kent also said:
Back to racers trying to help themselves and other racers. like I said, sell your fast cars to someone who doesn't know and start racing a slow door slammer.
kr
As far as door slammers go a few are faster than some 'liners, we need tires too.
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As for the tire design mentioned, all have them have been tried with various degrees of failure by some pretty sharp people.
TF rear tires don't go 320 all the time. They only run close to that speed for less than 1/2 a second and are starting to fail at that.
Belted rims have been tried , most recently by Bruce Crower. It was so good in theory but in practice it was the only modern narrow liner that you have ever seen do a flat spin.
Aluminum tread wheels will only work slightly for steering on a car but not on the front of a bike because there is no contact patch for lateral traction. They won't transmit power for the same reason. Preshaped aluminum must displace the salt to the point they have enough contact to work and that won't happen without leaving a substantial mark on the surface of the track and consume a lot of power along the way.
The tires you have seen go the fastest are very close to the correct design. Getting them built is the problem and the liability has to be taken in house or you can just forget it.
Inspite of the stiffness of the cord construction or the support of the air, pneumatic tires really do paw the ground and provide traction as long as the suspension and surface will allow them to stay on the ground.
Very well said Jack, are you alright?
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and some pretty smart people along the way.
The various designs have been tried and true. With the strength improvements in the cord material the tires can be better than ever.
The problem with LSR stuff is we don't tend to wear them out and the age is what deteriorates them more than the wear. In all other forms of racing you can count on repeated tire sales over a season. In LSR a tire might change hands 5 times over 40 years and even outlast a vehicle.
The $500 per tire and $100k mentioned would be a cheap deal because you forgot that money would happen with the sales. Better than sales would be a lease over the time the tire might be expected to maintain it's material strength. If you wear it out sooner, start over with a new lease and more money.
BNI did it in the 70s with 2 sizes and borrowed money. They sold them all.
Oh Mike
If I say something to confuse you it might be designed to make you think. :wink:
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hmmm, been folowing this, got a suggestion, myabe it's been thought of, but rather than purchase a set of tires, why not a lease, say 5 years, pays for the tires, and after a period of time, gets them returned to the mfg to get them off the salt, kinda like helmets or safety belts, gotta replace them every now and again cause of the rules, maybe do the same with tires, so they are not aged to the point of failure. maybe that way the scta or other entity can be protected? ain't a lawyer, dont want to think like that, so there are probably holes in this idea big enough to drive through....asking any lawyer if one can be sued is stupid in my opinion, of course he's gonna say yes....HE can be sued too....for giving advice that was "wrong"....geeze what a country we live in now....sure ain't what my father thought it would be like, nor what my social studies teacher taught either....I was taught that society has certain responsibilities, and so does the citizen. sure seems like the people (lawyers?) have changed that!
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How about Dresser Tire and Rubber co?
http://www.desser.com/retreading.html
They Retread aircraft tires. Since most of the wear on LSR tires is dry rot, just retread them.
I know it sounds hokey, but read the link, it's fairly sophisticated. They're making motorcycle retreads right now.
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Any good tire makes in Aus? maybe DRLA could help facilitate things? I'd think it should bypass the American lawyer layer, if you were to buy them as individuals, mail-ordered direct from the maker down under.
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Liability can extend to the people that specify a particular product for use in their program.
The protection you think you have is all still subject to the Judicial System.
Nothing has changed JD.
When we lost someone in 84, the estate generated a lawsuit and I was the first one served. It was not my participation that was challenged but rather the deep pockets they thought I represented with insurance. They settled out of court for nuisance value with the SCTA carrier and the Hospital but did realize I would be such a tough customer and not roll over.
In 90 pages of the deposition I said bite Me.
That was Kent's first trip to the Lake Bed and it taught him business as much as anything racing.
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Michael, not to be a naesayer, but if this tire deal is being worked on by Chet Herbert, or for that fact, anyone, why is it a hush-hush deal? If their is truley a tire deal in the works, why wouldn't it be posted on this or any other site or media publication (including BNI and SCTA). I hate to look at the glass as half empty, and I hope that I am wrong. :?:
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Michael, not to be a naesayer, but if this tire deal is being worked on by Chet Herbert, or for that fact, anyone, why is it a hush-hush deal? If their is truley a tire deal in the works, why wouldn't it be posted on this or any other site or media publication (including BNI and SCTA). I hate to look at the glass as half empty, and I hope that I am wrong. :?:
This thread would be the very reason. No one said it's huh huh, just like most business deals you don't go public till it's done. The "sue" word is used often, and when ever a "deal" is in the works people jump all over it before it's ready. But to think that everyone is just sitting around waiting for tires to appear seems unlikely to me. Too many fast cars being built, I know of 5 or 6, they may have tires to start with but as time goes on they'll need 'em too.
It's OK to investigate sources for tires but you'll most likely find that the easy ones are already tapped out. If it was easy we'd have tires.
And by the way, I don't know anything, most of this is JMO.
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Michael, I am not arguing any of the points you make. I know that Marlo is dilligently working on the 30's, that Earl, Ken and Ron Main are after 24's(or 26's, I forget), but what I feel is needed, is for any and all parties to band together, along with the SCTA, to make a concerted effort in finding ONE manufacturer to produce and distribute to ANY AND ALL cars and motorcycles. As it is, I fear the liabitlity issue(I hate those words) might prevent Chet, or anyone else from being able to share with anyone else, for fear of the consequnces. Honest, I am trying to see the glass as half full...........
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When Chet's 4 motored BBC 4 wheel drive first turned a wheel on the salt it featured the largest billet aluminum things you have ever seen in place of tires.
Well that is all it did for the first little bit was turn the wheels but didn't move. Vesco drove it for only 1 mile and turned out because the vibration was so bad he couldn't see. The very next meet several weeks later it had pneumatic tires.
Go figure ?
Some people already have. :wink:
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So, if and when a facility that will build LSR tires is found, who amongst the powers-that-be should be told?
No attorney me, but is some form of the following scenario feasible?: If "the club" owns the tooling, materials, & intellectual properties, and pays a third party company to build their tires for them, is it reasonable then to have "the club" lease the tires only to members of their organization. If a vehicle so equipped with club tires changes ownership, the new owner must sign a new lease. Termination of club membership terminates the lease. Each tire gets a serial #, if it is no longer in the possession of an original lessee under jurisdiction of the club, it's not legal possession and therefore subject to return to the club. "Outlaw" possession of a tire in LSR venues would void liability by unauthorized use.
Tires will appear when people really want them and the money is available. Tire companies are not charitable organizations, nor much interested in LSR the way they were 40 years ago. All that is needed is one willing to do the work.
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Many things are manufactured with a liability that goes back to the builder and everybody along the way. Most of the cost for a step ladder is in insurance and warnings. So none of that is imposable including almost fireproof protection for the organizations associated with the product.
The age old problem is money. Most things are built for a profit in a continuing enterprise. Our field is very limited and we have the reputation of using it past it's reasonable life time.
We have to establish a better reputation for those kinds of things or I can see the end from here.
SCTA has the money, with an improved method to manage the tires like you suggested the prospect is a lot better.
We can use our resources at SEMA that would be very friendly to us to great advantage. We should decide how much we have to spend and ask them for help to get past the legal entanglements so we can make some progress.
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Jack, it seems the first step would or should be for one of the SCTA member clubs to present a proposal to the SCTA Board. I feel the only way to get the ball rolling is for some action to be taken. This seems to be one of those issues where everybody is waiting for someone else to do the work. I don't think depending on the "deep pockets" is the answer. As I stated in a earlier post, I don't even need these tires, the Goodyear 28's work for me(aftrer buying a three grand quick change,ulp!), but having my mind altered watching Al Teague go by at about 375, I don't want to see the fast cars silenced. I also worry about those cars and drivers trying to get "one to many" runs out of what they now have.........
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First thing is to be sure that all the Clubs are represented on the Board.
They spend a lot of time fighting to be "King of the Hill" at the long term expense to the membership.
That expense goes beyond just money into self serving motives that will ruin it.
In a recent declaration by a board member, the display of the financial records for the association was said to be illegal by a person that should know better.
That is where you are starting from.
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As stated by many of the last Boards of Directors. (25 years of listening)The SCTA is NOT in the tire business. With that said, I have no idea what the current Board would do and I won't be there to comment or listen. . . .Good Luck
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In our current money hungry society, I would personally rather not see the SCTA get involved with either producing, leasing, or marketing tires. There is just no way it could ever be a win win situation for the SCTA. If anything it could end up being the down fall of the whole organization.
What I would suggest is the owners of all the 300mph plus cars pool their assets and talk to tire company's on their own behalf. This way there would be limited if any liability on the SCTA. I personally would rather see this route taken.
Of the 400 plus entries at Bonneville, what percentage run over 300mph? Lets just pick a number and say 10% do. Do we really want to risk the solvency of the BNI for less than 10% of it membership? What about the other 90% of the entries?
Regards,
Tom Gerardi
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I agree there's no easy answer, but I can't imagine a Bonneville meet with no one being able to try to exceed 300 mph due to lawyers influence. If I want to see 300 mph runs, I can go watch the drags.
The help of an organization like the SCTA could be very influential in getting some tires made. I can't imagine a gang of 40 or so "rag-tag" salt racers wanting to go 400+ having any creedence with a tire manufacturer. Maybe a famous 50+ year old organization would have a little more pull...
And those 90% folks, how many want to break 300? 400??
It's for the good of Landspeed racing that we work as a single body.
Dave
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When the last batch of BNI brand tires were organized by them with borrowed money, they were all used by cars under 300mph.
The 6ply Goodyear tires everybody likes so well were all built at the same time for an individual project and they were made available to everyone. Most were consumed under 300 mph.
The MT tires were as the result of him speaking on our behalf during his life time to a company that he didn't own.
The liability to the organization is the same regardless of whose tires the SCTA allows to run.
I would think the responsible thing to do would have some degree of control to reduce the risk to all or get out of the racing business.
When MT was sold to Cooper, we let a good opportunity go to get all of the available tires in house. Instead, we sat on our flat tires and let them go to a company that saw them as more of a liability than an asset,and that left us sitting on our assets.
I guess that would make SCTA
"The Home of the World's Half Fastest Speed Trials." :wink:
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Maybe this website is going to be, or already is, the tail that wags the dog on this issue.
I was told "no" for LSR tires by a small domestic tire manufacturer just today. And put out two more feelers. If they will do 600 mph tires, then the 400-500 mph needs shouldn't be a problem.
Hope triumphs over experience.
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I can't imagine a gang of 40 or so "rag-tag" salt racers wanting to go 400+ having any creedence with a tire manufacturer.
Dave, with all due respect, some of these people you call "rag-tag" are very influental, and not all, but a lot are very sucessful buisness people.
Regards,
Tom Gerardi
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As stated by many of the last Boards of Directors. (25 years of listening)The SCTA is NOT in the tire business. With that said, I have no idea what the current Board would do and I won't be there to comment or listen. . . .Good Luck
The tires I remember on his car were beyond the age specified for use by the builder and not used for the intended purpose. SCTA would be the only Sanction Body that would allow them for anything beyond a display.
There you have it.
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I can't imagine a gang of 40 or so "rag-tag" salt racers wanting to go 400+ having any credence with a tire manufacturer.
Dave, with all due respect, some of these people you call "rag-tag" are very influential, and not all, but a lot are very successful business people.
Regards,
Tom Gerardi
Most of the "Rag Tag" reputation comes from the lack of leadership in the sport in general.
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Tom, Even if you have 50 fast car owners, I don't think you will get a audience with a tire company. I believe if you have the SCTA in a leadership role, you might at least get in the door. The other problem with private financing, is what happens when two or more of the "deep pockets" get in a pissing match? Who owns what? One more thing to add, when Cooper Tire decided to cut up the last M/T tires, I was in contact with Carol Cianciola (spl?) almost daily. She told me what killed the deal was when McCreary Tire, who built the last tires, wouldn't pick up the liability after Cooper first declined. No one wants a hot potato. Also, don't forget, we need tires for the bikers also, and who is to say if Goodyear will stay with us in the future. We need to at least explore all the options AS A GROUP, for the good of all..
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Hi Tom. Being one of them, I like the rag-tag moniker, no offense meant. I like the fact that we're just a bunch of guys wanting to go fast and we're not worried about the (non-existant) payoff.
Count me in if there's a bunch going for tires....
Dave
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I don't think Goodrear is with us now.
I think the batch of 6 ply tires were built for a 1989 Olds project and Jim Feuling on the same molds as the drag tires with fewer plys.
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Who's got tires to run 400? no one. If they do, they will be at speed week this year. as soon as those tires are used up there will be no more 400+ passes. gentlemen these are the last few years for fast lsr passes. The hay day of fast lsr passes is almost over. So suck it up and get real... there is no money in our sport. We don't get spectators to influence so they can buy a product, so big money wont and hasn't come. 50 years ago they had 100 entries and a hand full of spectators. Today we have a 100 entries and a hand full of spectators. the only thing that has grown in the last 50 years in our sport is the size of the SCTA's bank account. nobody has and will put big money into our sport including convincing a tire manufacturer to risk there company even to sell us tires. as jack said there were tires out there, they didn't need to be made, they were already made, the tire guys thought they were to much of a liability and wouldn't sell them. There are plenty of people working on tires. They are all beating the same dead horse. Yes the tire issue is brought up at every board meeting. The SCTA is aware of the tire issue. Believe me the money is there for the tires, from the club or pooled racer dough, the money is not the issue. The issue is convincing a tire maker to do it. If someone can con a tire guy into it, they will go straight to the lsr hall of fame!
out
kr
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It sure would be nice to hear Mike Cook's take on all of this. I know that Mike has put a lot of enegy into this subject, and I think all of us would welcome any input from him, or anyone else, including Earl, Ken, Marlo,etc. This is one subject where we need to all stick together.
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Anybody wanting to run over 200 with anything is affected by the non availability of suitable tires.
Part of the problem might be the "I have mine, too bad about your's" type of deal.
We saw evidence of that here today.
It might be time for the "Under 200mph Club" for the slower bunch.
RIP SCTA
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There was a blurb about tires in the new Goodguys magazine (Landspeed Louises' column), to paraphrase:
"Alaskan Bush Tires Bill Duncan reported that he has the mold for the 30" tire (9x30 I presume), financial constraints have mired progress. With sales projected at 300-400 per year (if that - my comment, not theirs) it make it hard to justify the equipment investment. Duncan figures several hundred thousand dollars for the base equipment and an additional $80k for each other size. An enormous burden for a family run company."
This is where an organization like SCTA could step in and help for the benefit of all racers.
Dave
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Both the costs and demand were probably doubled for the story in reality.
The details of the tire with the extra plys and limited production run almost prohibit automation.
Older , hand methods that increase the per unit costs are an additional burden.
One has to wonder how much they spent before arriving at that conclusion or did somebody back off a promise.
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Jack D wrote:
Part of the problem might be the "I have mine, too bad about your's" type of deal.
We saw evidence of that here today.
Jack, I am curious were was that said? If you are referring to my post, you misinterpreted it. I need the 30" tall M/T's just like other people. I was on the list to purchase 4 tires for my Modified Roadster. This concerns me also, I am just not in a panic mode. Everything goes full circle and this problem will be resolved.
Refresh my mind on all the tires that Ermie Imersio bought at one time. I never knew the details but at one time didn't Ermie have about 100 tires for his turbine car?
Regards,
Tom Gerardi
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I made reference to Tone and his give up. The quote was mine for illustration.
Ermie bought the 18 inch at the same time BNI bought the 15 inch from the same builder. Ermie paid for his with his money and sold them to whoever wanted them . BNI borrowed the money (about $25k) and sold them also. I don't remember the number of tires but 200 sounds about right.
The old timers that were use to the Indy tires were afraid of them because they were not as many ply as they were accustomed to. The strength was the same with stronger materials. They were said to be out of round but that was just lack of understanding of how to mount and prep them for use.
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Tom, I think it is time to get in the panic mode. MacDonald and Pitts have no spare 30's left. Marlo is building a car for the same size with no or few backups. Lots of cars cannot run smaller size tires due to chassis design. Not everyone can afford modern quickchanges. Lets hope we don't get to the point where guys cannot race because of no tires, or as I stated earlier, try to make "one last pass" on a set of used up tires.
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On the Arctic Tundra Tire, one must wonder what enticed Duncan to start the project in the first place. He first invested a reported 17,000 for the chunk of aluminum for the 30" outer mold, then had to have it machined. Wether or not liability issues or economics called the project to a halt I don't know, but it seems strange that the entire project wasn't researched further before the commitment was made. I feel bad for Mr. Duncan as well as the LSR community. Hopefully, someone else can purchase the mold and continue forward.
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Posted on the Gear Grinders website, meeting of March 2, 2006
What?s new in your garage?
Les Leggit: Tire report ? he will be taking 4 tires, having them spun & shaved and then report to the SCTA. Only about 75 cars that need the 30-31 inch tires. Mostly 250 mph plus. Will send them to VA for testing. He is only trying to get a tire for these few cars ? not a 300mph tire, but one for the 200-250. He will try to have a cost for a race ready tire soon. Dunlop and Berkeley in the UK has a 6 ply tire, they are 17inch. There is a 19 x32 which has been run over 400mph.
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There is a 19 x32 which has been run over 400mph.
Run or spun?
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Mike, I don't know. That is all that was on their website.
Regards,
Tom Gerardi
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The White BBC Turbo full bodied back motored liner that ran the lakes at maybe 275mph over 20 years ago. He ran stock Michelin XVX as I recall it was even recommended he not shave them. That was a surprise. I never heard about a failure. I suspect they would not go the distance at Bonneville.
Spin testing is a fine test, just don't put any weight or HP through them.
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I talked with Lester at the GG meeting, the ones he's doing are automobile tires shaved for use to 300 MPH (Dunlops as I recall), that should help the 200-300 cars. I applaud his efforts.
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Sport car tires are near what is needed already.
Even the tires for the Veyron are unique. They're specially designed by Michelin to handle the stress of driving at 250 mph. The tires need to be sticky like a race car's and able to handle 1.3 G's on the skidpad. However, they also need to last longer than the 70 or so miles of a typical race tire.
Michelin therefore created completely new tires to handle the Veyron's unique requirements. In the rear, the tires are 14.4 inches (36.6 cm) wide. Specifically, the tires measure 245/690 R 520 A front and 365/710 R 540 A rear, where 245 and 365 are the width in millimeters (9.5 and 14.4 inches respectively). The rims are 520 mm and 540 mm in diameter (approximately 20 inches). These tires, in other words, are massive -- the rears are the widest ever produced for a passenger car.
The tires use the Michelin PAX system. Their pressure is monitored automatically, and they can run flat for approximately 125 miles (201 km) at 50 mph (80 kph). According to Michelin, the run-flat detection system "plays an integral role in active safety in PAX System. Its role is to inform you of a loss of pressure, either gradual or sudden." Once warned of an air leak by the PAX system, you can reduce your speed and head toward a tire repair center.
One advantage of the PAX system and its run-flat ability is that it eliminates the need for a spare tire.
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On the Leggitt tires, why bother? The Goodyear tire (28X15) is rated for 300mph at 1750# per tire, and is readily available from Carrol Shelby Enterprises, amongst others. They run about $400 apiece. Perhaps Les wants a wider tread for all the power He has ( Goodyear is a 6 Ply with 4.5 inch tread), or he wants to stick with a larger rim.
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LSR tires are unique in design in they depend a lot on the pounds per square inch load as opposed to others that are square inches per pound design.
The direction of the contact patch on the salt will often determine what direction you are likely to go best.
They are not the same as other racing demands and "GETAWAY WITH IT" can have a whole new meaning.
The best tires for the deal will be best by original design.
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The other thing I didn't bring up on the Leggitt deal is perhaps he has too much power for a quick change. Incidently, a new Quickchange is about $2500 w/o brakes and with a differential, and almost twice that if you want a 3.00 ring gear(4.11 is standard). You can gear the 4.11 up to 2.19, but Winters says that will handle about 850-900 h.p. max. You can cheapen the price by about $900 if you want to run a spool, but I learned a valuable lessson on spools about 50 yards off the starting line, and I don't care to repeat it at 200+ mph.lol.
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Kent Riches, you are famous. Franklin Ratliff just copied your last post and pasted it on the Nitroland website with the title "Live Free Or Die."
Just thought you might like to know.
Regards,
Tom Gerardi
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I miss FR (just kidding!)
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FR is a Florida state Treasure that comes free if you buy a little of their available Swamp Land.
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Dave Cox, I am with you and applaud Lester for his efforts also. Only good can come out of trying.
Bob Drury, some cars are only set up for 30-32" tires, and 28" tires will just not work. My modified needs 30" tall tires, so it would fit into that category.
Regards,
Tom Gerardi
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Tom, I understand, and The more I think about the Leggitt car on 28's, the more I shudder...............
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Good news from a good source, just got off the phone. Development continues. Tire production is still a ways out, but the solution is in the works.
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Now let it develop at it's own pace.
Be prepared to support it with some sales projections and suitable results will follow. :wink:
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K.H., I realize this is probably one of them "top secret" deals, but if you could, how about enlightening us with the proposed sizes. Thanx........
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30s first. But not tomorrow. Over the course of time, "probably" everything everyone wants.
It's like Mark Twain said, "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."
"Top secret?" I expect there to be realistic and accurate reports within a month from stronger sources than me. But, like JackD suggests, if we (myself included especially) stop stirring the pot for a bit, the soup will be ready. It's just that the whole realm of possibilities changed within the last few months with certain things happening within the last few days.
Is it a sure thing? I'm celebrating by getting back to work on my tire test machine, as soon as I finish the WayBack machine. Now I've gone completely deaf and mute on this subject, but thanks for your quite fair question, Bob.
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K.H., Thanx, lets hope the God's smile on all of us...................
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:lol: rember sitting in chem class @ Iowa st in about 64- Harvy Diehl was proff and was comenting on how he had been on salt -since he was on advisory bd to extract fertilizer from salt flats, He thought some of the fellows had some real interesting cars but didn"t have the heart to mention that in time they would have no salt to run on, and for a while it looked like that would be the case, made me lose inst in lsr , now got inst up again and was getting worried about tires- looks like maybe this problem will be cured also,sure hope so.
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The salt has changed. It is not nature or racing but the mineral extraction. The area and window of time the salt is suitable for running has substantially been reduced to the point we are almost running down a dirt alley.
The salt pumping project is for the self preservation of the mining interests and we might derive some slight benefit but no more. It is nothing like how the salt would restore it's self if it was just left alone to go through the natural healing cycle.
In the early 80s when it rained out for a couple of years, there was so much water the mining interests could not operate because the ponds would not evaporate. The salt came back and everybody was patting themselves on the back how good it was. The problem is that it was like beautiful thin ice and very fragile. The mining operation started up again and the pumping was to have put a huge amount of salt back.That was like whitewash over dirt and looked good for awhile but was the wrong chemistry for our use.
I have run there from as early as March to as late as December and now we have to take a yearlong bet we can get a couple of day a season.
The weather pattern has something to do with it but the narrow window of time is more related to chemistry.
Until the financial rewards for the mining company deteriorate past the economy the BLM will wring their hands while pretending to not understand and we will do as well as ever with what is left.
How does this relate to tires ? Until you make a positive move the problem won't heal it's self.
Let's hope the tire deal teaches some of that and we put those lessons to good long term use for everybody and not suffer from too much personnel interest.
"Keeping your head down until the shooting stops will get you killed." :wink:
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Good news from a good source, just got off the phone. Development continues. Tire production is still a ways out, but the solution is in the works.
Gee, didn't someone else say that?
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Good news from a good source, just got off the phone. Development continues. Tire production is still a ways out, but the solution is in the works.
Gee, didn't someone else say that?
The program he is speaking of is not the same.
Progress is going forward in the face of all the problems mentioned with specification tire construction.
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Sorry to go back to page 3, But Jack where did I give up????? I made a statement that's been said many times over the last 10 years about the the SCTA and tires. I won't be able to hear what's said because I choose to step down from being the SDRC rep for the last 26 years. Geesh!! Jack, you're a raft of knowledge but sometimes you are a little out of step.
Does my car have illegal tires????? Damnation, I hope not. I get calls every week on what I have used, what speed have I run, what did you do to them, and where do I get some. Fronts and rears
I'm planning on bring back my cars to El Mirage something I have missed these last 6 years after trying and succeeding on getting my son a red hat. (luckily me too)
I'm one of those who could say "I've got mine tough for you" but that's not the way I feel. If that truck would have opened it's doors with the "new" tires which were going to be available; I had pictures of dead presidents in my hand (no Visa). Hey I want tires built as much as anyone else so our motorsport will continue. Last year I bought 2 NEW Bonneville M/T's 27" on E-bay for $300.00 "Buy It Now" no bidding. Ojai no less drove up and picked them up....4 years ago I bought 2 used ones at the Long Beach swap meet for $100.00 (paid him what he asked)....
First and foremost I want everyone to have a safe ride. If tires are not available for the 3 to 400 mph cars I will surely miss them but 450 other members want to race too and that's what I will concentrate on.
And as the Association having too much money in reserve. I don't know what the best conmfort is, but I don't want to be assesed again to keep the association afloat like was done in the past. I feel that more will be given back to the racers in the future.
Sorry for the rant. J.D.
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If I am out of step it is by choice and with all things considered that is the way I am.
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J.D., welcome back, you have been greatly missed, and I promise to try not and annoy you or anyone else. We need your insight on here to neutralize Dolans incite....lol :wink:
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JD and I play "Good Cop-Bad Cop" all the time.
The problem you will have is to decide who is who. LOL
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Uh, is it okat if I annoy Dolan now and then? He can get pretty dull without a little proding.......... :twisted:
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.... I learned a valuable lessson on spools about 50 yards off the starting line, and I don't care to repeat it at 200+ mph.lol.
What happened? I'm planning on running a spool, I have 3 carriers set up with different gears and spools already.
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Let me put it this way Leon, I got a panoramic view of the Mountains, twice............ If you start to get sideways with a spool, you cannot recover, unless its a miracle............
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Leon, I ran a spool for the last eight years, and only spun the one time, with 8 passes over 200, so I would give it a try before you panic too much. I think a lower horsepower car (500 or less) with about the same torque would probably be less sensitive, and perhaps a younger driver would also help........................
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I ran a spool in my liner with a 1.5 to r&p and had no problems thank goodness but my rear axle was only 22" wide. Much less effect. I have heard of numerous problems on the salt with spools and short wheelbase and wide track on the driving wheels. When Gale Banks and I were trying to put a program together for my liner, we were both in constant contact with the gal at MT Tires and I had four 30's and two 26,5"s on order. I was number eleven on her list but you all know how that turned out.
When Cooper bought out MT, Gale talked with the big kahuna at Cooper and tried to impress him of our need but that obviously did no good.
I think my old car with Earls's power can go a lot faster but not without proper tires.
My health and finances prevent me from doing this anymore but I sure wish you luck. We can't let the really fast cars die.
Howard Nafzger
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Even the tires for the Veyron are unique. They're specially designed by Michelin to handle the stress of driving at 250 mph. The tires need to be sticky like a race car's and able to handle 1.3 G's on the skidpad. However, they also need to last longer than the 70 or so miles of a typical race tire.
Michelin therefore created completely new tires to handle the Veyron's unique requirements. In the rear, the tires are 14.4 inches (36.6 cm) wide. Specifically, the tires measure 245/690 R 520 A front and 365/710 R 540 A rear, where 245 and 365 are the width in millimeters (9.5 and 14.4 inches respectively). The rims are 520 mm and 540 mm in diameter (approximately 20 inches). These tires, in other words, are massive -- the rears are the widest ever produced for a passenger car.
So, I realize this was a couple of pages ago, but you say Michelin produced a "completely new tire" for the Veyron? Well what is the potential market for that? I mean how many Veyrons are they gonna sell? Oh, JackD will get two, one for commuting (when he's late) and one for weekends, but other than that what's the total market for this "one off"? Even given only 10k "excessive wheelspin" miles per set they probably won't sell 400 of these tires ever. And really, what's the difference in chances of your dying, or sufffering a JackD-like mental disorder, between a 250 mph crash and a 400 mph crash? Not much, I would guess.
So why are they making this tire and taking on this "liability"? For the cool press it might give them? I dunno, "Builders of The Fastest Tires on Earth" has a nice marketing ring to it. Maybe we need to appeal to greed rather than common sense?
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Psst, Jim, no one has told Dolan yet that he's nuts...lets change the subject before he catches on.............
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"Money talks and just talk can cost more than money."
"When you put your money where your mouth is it tends to protect your chin if you are going to lead with it."
"People that live with glass chins should not put them out front."
"If sticks and stones are your weapons of choice, you are really gonna hate my gun."
There are more Veron Hot Rods in So Cal than LSR streamliners on the planet and they buy lots of tires , even up front.
You guys are a real inspiration and so easy. LOL :wink:
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I dunno about "more Veyron hot rods". At last count there was exactly one in the U.S. Course that was about a half a year ago, and with an anticipated production run of 300 (less than 50 a year) it will only be a matter of time before a few dozen of them will be cruising SoCal. So okay, I stand corrected... maybe Michelin will sell 3000 tires composed of two different sizes front and rear, so 1500 of each size (300 cars X 4 tires = 1200 plus replacements. No spares. Where would you put a 14.5 inch wide tire in such a a small car?). And no, I don't know at what cost.
Still it seems that there is more danger of a drunk crashing than an LSR type (check what's left of an Enzo that died at 162mph giving the driver a cut lip).
Glad we can help keep you awake, Jack.
Jim (the one with the glass checkbook.... see thru)
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So your basis is on 1 car model from 1 car builder with a run for just that model car and a production run of 300 cars that will all be sold before they are built ?
Is that is all we can expect from that builder ?
I promise to wake you again if I need you.
Never mind, I think I already know. :wink:
"Don't date out of your species."
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:D I have a spot for a couple of sets of These fat michelins on my hot rods, but don't like idea of changing rim size, probably will down road.
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:D I have a spot for a couple of sets of These fat michelins on my hot rods, but don't like idea of changing rim size, probably will down road.
Boyd sold the wheel business but I forget to who.
He could have carved them out for cheap. Now with the new owner the price might have gone up.
Keep an eye in the salvage yards and maybe even get friendly with a tow truck driver that picks up abandoned vehicles.
On my roadster I put Halibrand 15x10 pin drive Quick change mags from the back of an Indy Car. I got them for $10 each from a wife that was having a weekend garage sale while her husband was in Vegas with his secretary on business or something. You just have to find those because they sorta happen in a hurry and don't make the paper. :wink:
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[quote="1212FBGS" I wouldn't race on no thin from china. long.
kr[/quote] :? I wouldn't be so tough on stuff made in china, quite a few years back customer needed 454 crank for puller trk, gm sent junk 2 times & time was getting short so he got an off brand, I couldn't beleive what a nice crank it was , and couldn't beleive it was made in china, and it has stood up better than the gm counterparts throughout the years of pulling wars. am presently finishing a set of 10 ton Holt heads cast in china, and they are nice. Have used gunpowder made in china and found it to be equal or better than dupont, din't know about their tires but afore mentioned stuff has been first class.
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My dear congregation of speed demons.
This tyre problem is as vexing as any of Job's ills yet there is a way through, we merely need to unite!
At the moment Goodyear et al are still getting free advertising with their name painted (usually badly) on the side of existing LSR tyres whenever an image of a car is published.
We could all bandy together and paint out the tyre make names on our LSR cars as a group protest highlighting the fact that the sport is not supported anymore by these manufacturers in every photo published.
This would up the stakes for any newcomer interested in making tyres (or encourage old ones to continue) as they would be the only ones with names on at meets and published rather than being a minnow amongst all the others.
...ah I can see it now... I'll be showing a picture to my grand son in 30 years, it will be of the lakes and the cars all have black only tyres... "son, you can tell this photo was taken in the naughties, when racers came together and fought for what was right, together, side by side. Just before Goodyear bought the lake itself and banned Land Speed Racing forever..."
Reverend Hedgash
"Why protest when you can riot"
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Some do care.
The care and feeding of a tire builder is not a very well developed skill. :wink:
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CAN ANYONE GIVE US FEEDBACK THAT HAVE USED THE 32" DUNLAP TIRES. WE ARE PLANNING TO PUT A PR. ON OUR 34 FORD COUPE A/CBGALT. TO HELP US RUN 240 & CHANGE AT BONNEVILLE HAVE ANY OF YOU RUN THIS TIRE THAT FAST THANKS FOR ANY INPUT.
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We have run the 30`s to 240 with no problem.
The key is to shave them down to allmost nothing and take off the corners. I f you don`t shave them enough and get allote of tire spin
they will chunk. Been running them for 11 years, chunked a few
when we were to lazy to turn them down enough, but never had one blow apart. 10 years ago found a nail at B-ville, tire went down at 220,
felt a little weird but maintained control with no problems. 8)
Got a set of 30`s and 32`s on order now.
Good luck
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It is not common knowledge but a tire designed for the street can benefit from a break
in period of running a few hundred miles before they are shaved and used for high speed.
The chunking failure is reduced by the shaving that removes a lot of the unsupported weight
of the tread rubber to the casing.
The bond from the tread and the casing is done in the mold but will work better if some heat
and flex cycles are put through it first.
They are substantially stronger than a green tire .
That is part of the reason a new tire might fail where an older one might not until it wears out.
You can start out with a better tire if you break it in as part of the preparation. :wink:
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We grabbed a pair of the 32 inch dunlops to use on our model A sedan,Who shaves tires? Are they shaved while mounted on the wheel and inflated to running pressure?
Enlighten young grasshopper here!! :D
Tim
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BIGTIM,,, I went to all the local tire stores/shops, and asked about "shaved tires" and they all looked at me like I had two heads. I finally found a place out on the Interstate the dealt with BIGTRUCK/18 wheeler tires. They sell mostly used tires and do tire repair. They have a gizzmo that spins the mounted/inflated tire at about 5 RPM. Then a little cutter disc about 2" in diameter is feed across the tread. The disc is held at an angle that shaves off the high spots and slowly rotates the disc. Several 'passes' are made to repair/save the big tires.
Also,,, when I asked about 'shaved', he only closed one eye. Then he said "You mean trued?" He explained "We use this thing to TRUE UP cupped and uneven wore tires, to save'um for a few more miles"
So may suggestion is to go where they do 18 wheel tire repair and useTRUE MY TIRES.
Good luck,RICK
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:? Ive never done it myslf but some of the tractor pullers use small portable wood planers, the electric kind w/ head like jointer, their cutting down lugs and leave on tractor w/ gauge to get all true. don't know if this would work but should,long as ye don't get careless & cut to deep.
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This is a long lesson that needs to be done right. Some methods are better than others. It is better suited to a sit around type discussion than anything that can be done here. Liability exposure probably limits a magazine article also.
If you understand the need, the mechanics of cutting the rubber are really pretty easy. You already experienced the difference between a tire sales and repair outfit.
We are actually not alone in that SCCA types also remove some tread mass to reduce the squirm of a full tread when really leaned on in a race. While they want the tread pattern and shape , they just want it reduced to no more than is required for the event.
Recappers also remove tread down to a point but their method is buffing with a wire wheel that leaved it rough for gluing and is not suited for our application.
The amount you remove and the final shape will be determined by the tire design and use. If you remember how a LSR tire works, it will dictate the final shape when underway. Remember it is PSI rather than SIP. Think about a TF rear at speed and that will begin to explain it. Extra attention to the edges is important because the rubber is usually not only thicker there but in the event of a misdirection event (spin), you don't want it to dig in and put the panoramaic top view on the bottom.
A tire truing machine can do a good job and a sharp block plane or even electric will work. One of the things to do during any cutting process to to get a smooth cut. The shape and method of the tooling will produce a distinctive pattern in the surface. The important thing here is to cut it clean and not leave a buffed or ground surface that is more prone to tear away. In metallurgy a rough surface would be called a stress riser, weaken the surface and lead to failure.
Keeping the surface wet with a hand spray bottle of a weak soapy water mix will help the cutter do a better job in any case.
The final OK has to come from the person that signs off the (it works for bikes too) entry. The opinions as well as the skill level will vary as wide as the experience and you may be learning right along with them.
Tune in next week and the featured article will be "How to fly a plane."
Well that is my guess anyway. :wink:
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The company I am familiar with that shaves tires is Vilven tires in Royal Il. When I used BFG TA R1 tires they did an excellent job of shaving and making true. I have not seen their process but the results were very satisfactory and they will do more work for me. Phone 217 5833277
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Tire Rack shaves and offers a heat cycling service for new tires.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=66
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=67
Vilven Tire shaves too.
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Tire Rack shaves and offers a heat cycling service for new tires.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=66
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=67
Vilven Tire shaves too.
Not often seen in the LSR community.
Study carefully and expect to see it on the test. :wink:
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Perhaps the forthcoming series of LSR tires can be designed not only for strength under a thin tread, but also heat cycled before leaving either the factory or distributor. Arriving "broken in" and not prone to chunking. If safety and longevity can be built in, it's a benefit. And, if tires remain in procuction, perhaps folks won't run them long past their prime.
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I just called the tire rack, they will only shave and heat cycle tires and wheels bought from them. I have a tire truing machine I will sell. $2500
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And, if tires remain in procuction, perhaps folks won't run them long past their prime.
Your new here huh?
Kidding... :lol:
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The man who made the M/T tires for awhile, advised me several years back that LSR tires will last a long time if they are cleaned and waxed after the season, and protected from UV damage. That, plus not allowing the weight of the vehicle to compress one spot over the off-season may well extend the life of a tire to decades.
I'm not sure I would run a 30-year old tire under any circumstances.
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All good info especially for a 'green' racer like myself
Thanks
Tim
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U.V drives the plasticisers out of Vinyl...is there a similar process with tires ?, does U.V drive out any volatile compounds that prevent perishing?...Storing the tires in light proof bags and keeping them unloaded must help but are there any compounds you can buy like "Burt Munro's magical tire elixir" that'll keep them young and supple??
....just for the record I believe that the first time the factory blown Vincent that runs at Gairdner "re-appeared " in 2004 it was wearing tires from "back in the day".....not thirty , not forty but nearly fifty years old!
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the Gairdner Vincent also enjoyed handling characteristics from
50 yrs prior..............and an equal outcome...........
Joe :)
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the Gairdner Vincent also enjoyed handling characteristics from
50 yrs prior..............and an equal outcome...........
Joe :)
A smart one will learn as you go and not make the same mistake the first time.
Joe shows some promise. :wink:
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the Gairdner Vincent also enjoyed handling characteristics from
50 yrs prior..............and an equal outcome...........
Joe :)
....different tires , same result .To be fair there are reports that the spokes in the new front wheel were not quite right however the ledger all comes down to the sum at the bottom and it balanced with the sheet you were referring to :wink:
....anyone on the volatility of tire compounds?
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If I recall correctly, from conversations a few years back, some of the earlier tires contained wax in their compound. I should have taped them.
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So, in reading a back issue of Bonneville Racing News, (#122, page 6) Sam Wheeler of EZ Hook mentions that he runs a special tire given to him by a Goodyear engineer. Now given that Goodyear already makes Eagle Land Speed stuff is there any hope with them for higher speed stuff in the future. Sam mentions Lester Garbicz (who has since moved onto another tire company) was very helpful. Has anybody asked the Big G?
Enquiring minds and all that...
Jim
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Correction: The tires should be waxed to prevent OZONE deterioration, checking, etc, on the sidewall. The older tires contained NO wax in their compound. Thanks, Mr. R.
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On March 13th, I initiated this post on LSR tires. To date, there have been 123 replies, and 6245 viewings. There has been a lot of discourse on the subject, all of it good, in my opinion. However, other than rumors, no one has offered any positive, proven plan to help save our sport. I beceach each and every one of you to reread my post of that day, and if you truely love our sport, urge your club members or like minded friends to get off their asses and get this ball rolling. With the Julie Russell lawsuit against Goodyear Tire, I think one more spike will be driven into the coffin. Bob
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Has anybody talked with Mike Cook? I assume he is still working towards a solution. I haven't heard anything to the contrary.
I'm down to a single set (4) of new 30" MTs, they won't even last for the test runs....I'm getting desperate....
:cry:
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Mike is aware of this site, but apparently choses not to post here. Dan Warner and J.D. appear to be the only SCTA connections who regularly post or answer posts on this site, for which many of us are eternally grateful. Bob
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A good rumor is worth a thousand authentic stories.
In the authentic category: Just a month ago I, personally, spoke directly with the principal of a small tire company that had just acquired a number of tire building machines for the intended purpose of developing and manufacturing racing tires, specifically including LSR tires, as time and resources allow.
In the rumor category: Cooper (owner of the M/T molds and pile of a few hundred tires from the last run) is said to have revisited the idea of making LSR tires.
In the fabricated rumor category: A league of interested parties is bidding for exclusive distribution rights for any and all forthcoming LSR tires, and will withhold them from the market until the rules committee tinkles backward on their highly ludicrous, anti-competition, ban of aftermarket pushrod motorcycle engines in M.
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Good one! :lol:
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lu-di-crous
1:amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2: meriting derisive laughter or scorn as abusurdly inept, false,or foolish
I think you have it. Tires are of great concern.
With 9 pages,129 replies, and 6593 views so far perhaps that indicates a soft spot.
"Don't ever lie , cheat, or steal because the World is too small and you live too long."