Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: mergatroyd on July 23, 2014, 12:10:26 AM
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We ran fuel last year, so didn't worry about it.
For gas, I have to present an empty tank at the fuel truck to be sealed at the start? I understand the refuel procedures, but my question is pertaining to anything possibly in the tank from testing prior to arrival.
Thanks!
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If it's empty there is nothing in it.
I checked the dictionary and empty is the same as void.
I agree, it is a silly question. You are correct on that one.
FREUD
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When you let them know you want your tank sealed, they'll dip it with a stick to verify it's empty.
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Okay, thanks for confirming what my gut told me.
Do most people have a separate tank for dyno runs then (it's a motorcycle with possible nooks and crannies that might hold liquids offensive to the rules).
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Why would you dyno with gasoline other than what you are required to use?
DW
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Get the tank as empty as you can. When you arrive at the fuel truck the folks there will look in and maybe try putting a stick or ruler down to the bottom, but in many cases the tank has a neck that won't allow the stick to get to the very bottom. And worse - many tanks do not have a drain at the bottom where you could open it to drain it.
We've used a flexible hose and a siphon to show that the tank it empty, but on one of the bikes the tank's internal bends were so kinky that we couldn't get to the bottom. So - the guys at the truck proceeded to shake the bike back and forth as hard as they could and listened for fuel sloshing around in there. Good luck - and remember that being nice to the officials -- whether Rick or Les or whomever at the fuel truck or anyone wearing an orange hat -- will make life easier for you and all of us. :-D
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Why would you dyno with gasoline other than what you are required to use?
DW
I wouldn't, but I don't know of anywhere to buy actual event gas nearby. I was just going to use pump gas to tune. :-D I was mainly concerned with what Slim is talking about.
Get the tank as empty as you can. When you arrive at the fuel truck the folks there will look in and maybe try putting a stick or ruler down to the bottom, but in many cases the tank has a neck that won't allow the stick to get to the very bottom. And worse - many tanks do not have a drain at the bottom where you could open it to drain it.
We've used a flexible hose and a siphon to show that the tank it empty, but on one of the bikes the tank's internal bends were so kinky that we couldn't get to the bottom. So - the guys at the truck proceeded to shake the bike back and forth as hard as they could and listened for fuel sloshing around in there. Good luck - and remember that being nice to the officials -- whether Rick or Les or whomever at the fuel truck or anyone wearing an orange hat -- will make life easier for you and all of us. :-D
I find that being nice to people is usually more rewarding than bringing attitude. :-)
Thanks to all for the help!
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The reason to dyno using the fuel you'll use when you're racing - is so that you can optimise the tune-up to take advantage of everything the race fuel offers. Tuning with pump gas is fine - but that tune up won't necessarily give you the best performance when you switch to race gas. That's why you should consider using the exact fuel you'll use on the race course.
As for how to get the fuel -- well, it's a bit late if you're trying to tune for SpeedWeek, but you can contact ERC* (www.ercracingfuels.com, I think it is) and buy some of the fuel to have it shipped to you. It ain't cheap to buy, and shipping isn't all that easy, so be ready for some sticker shock. But if you think it's expensive -- why are you racing? There's dang near nothing that's cheap in this avocation. :roll:
*If you're not sure what fuel to use you might be wise to ask whomever you speak with at ERC for some guidance on what'll work for your engine. And, by the way, ERC is the event fuel vendor at the Salt -- so their fuel is the race gas - at least you won't have to try to compare some VP or Rocket with the ERC recommendation - if you buy ERC.
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I don't know why it didn't occur to me to order the fuel, I order everything else. That one slipped through the cracks in my plan.
Thanks again.
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I don't know why it didn't occur to me to order the fuel, I order everything else. That one slipped through the cracks in my plan.
Thanks again.
ERC is kind of tough to find here in the Midwest - I don't know about Oklahoma.
But you will want to test with a fuel similar to what you'll be racing.
I dynoed with C-14 VP, which has virtually the same specific gravity as event ERC A-19, and a similar octane.
I chose similar specific gravities because I'm running a carburetor, and wanted to recreate on the dyno the same fuel flow characteristics I'm likely to see at Bonneville. I don't know if that criteria is as important in the case of fuel injected and managed engines.
Call ERC and find out which gasolines they'll be bringing out this year. If you can't get ERC in your area, it's likely you'll be able to find VP.
Then you can make some comparisons.
http://www.epictrainingsystem.com/sxs1.htm
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp-drag-racing
Dynoing with pump gas doesn't necessarily leave power on the table, but it does limit your opportunities to discover power.
Octane = foregiveness.
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From a non-dyno guy . . .
Dynoing with the correct fuel at sea level will not be the same as running at Bonneville's density (or non-density) altitudes. So using something close would seem to be a good choice.
And if a little of the old stuff is left in the lines, nooks and crannies -- won't you probably at least start the motor up once before you make that qualifying lap?
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For a motorcycle are you allowed to bring a new sealed can of VP gas and pay ERC to fill your tank and seal it and keep your can there under their supervision for you to have more added and reseal your tank? VP and other brands are usually easy to access most places at a reasonable cost at a lot of outlets and dealers.
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I think it is safe to say that Speed Week is an "Event Gasoline" meet. Read carefully Para. 2.B in rule book. You are opening a can of worms for yourself to try to get something else certified and a lot of bother. Any gasoline fuel ERC has on the truck qualifies (have been told this by DW himself) as "Event Gas" so pick your poison closest to the VP you want to run. But I suppose what you want to do may be technically possible, however I suspect the answer may be 'if you are not running "Event Gas" you are in a "fuel class". Since this forum is "unofficial" you should ask one of the technical support people listed on page 183 of the rule book and perhaps Dan Warner also for an "official" answer to your question. This answer was directed at wfojohn's question.
I have ordered some gas from ERC for testing and by the time I got done was in range of $350 for 15 gallons including shipping from CA to MD so I fully understand the issue of trying to test with something else and maybe running that on the salt.
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John,
Save yourself a call. The procedure is as Jack sez. ANY non-event fuel(gas), read ERC, will classified as a fuel class entry.
DW
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Well, can't say I like the answer but it is what it is.